What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
(OP)
I mean, I know it's a big state, but it seems to have about one half of the fubars.
http: //www.nyti mes.com/ap online/200 9/09/21/bu siness/AP- TX-Tower-D emolition. html?scp=6 &sq=bu ilding%20d emolition& amp;st=cse
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RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
If I were the attorney for the Geotech and structural, I would file an injunction to prevent the demolition....once it's done, there's no going back and part of the evidence is gone.
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
Greg
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
Lesson: Always, always either execute your design exactly as the Geotechnical Report says or get a written exception from him/her when you don't. I'm a big believer in literally cutting and pasting the Geotechnical Report requirements (with changes like "should" to "shall")into our Earthwork Specification. That way there's no chance of a dispute. Why pay those guys if you're not going to listen to them?
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
The D/B sometimes uses the control as a club to reduce the amount of inspection that is recommended. I wonder if the geotech had fulltime inspection of foundation installation!
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
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RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
One has to know the relationship between the Owner, the Developer (if different), the Design/Builder (if different, the Structural Consultant, the Architect, and the Geotekkie to see who did what to who...
The structure should remain in place until it is agreed upon by all parties that it is no longer needed for info. There is a cost to this, but it's all part of the claim. There could/should be long term monitoring of the current problem and the cause of any differential movement determined. It could be from factors unrelated to the original construction.
I often include any/all geotech reports as part of the bid documents and do *not* selectively publish parts or recommendations. On one of my latest projects, there are about a dozen geotech reports for the site going back 3 decades... the bid documents note that these are all available for review by the bidders.
Dik
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
yet ... shouldn't a good structural designer overcome and fight any bad recommendation by any party trying influence him/her out of required safety? I find no indemnity on this ... not even from the code itself, let me say. So I am of the opinion on that if it is me with my knowledge, firm and warrant who is to guarantee adequacy to use, safety included, codes should allow me perform to my wish.
But more modestly returning to the matter of no recommendations, someone in the spanish legislation must have identified the risk of always following the recommendations of the geotechs for the foundations for it states that recommendations will be included in the geotechnical report IF the structural designer so demands. And note, will ever remain recommendations (as worrying as they can be when not respected and in problems), so no indemnity can be expected from recommendations when one has personal professional liabilities overcoming any recommendation given.
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
Why the rush to demo?
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
To clear up any confusion... I use geotech reports for most projects and use the information contained in them. If I have an issue, then I will discuss this with the geotekkie... and any variation is in writing. I often forward a copy of the final drawings to the geotekkie (to help share the guilt <G>).
It is not often that I use design values other than recommended; I'm happy to hang my hat on his expertise. If I feel his values for bearing are too high then I will use lower values that I am comfortable with. My standard notes make reference to the Geotechnical report as well as a recommendation that the Contractor seek additional information. I also usually include it as information with the bid documents.
It does open a bit of a can of worms if the contractor does a load takedown and determines that the foundations are oversized by the recommended bearing (if my design was lower), but in 40 years I've never had it happen.
Dik
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
I'm wondering if the soils investigation may not have gone deep enough to discover either a very localized, highly compressible region under the tower. Or it could be vibrations in the tower area from the construction, or otherwise, causing a quick condition under the tower. Just conjecture though.
If the tower is just settling straight down and not leaning, what is the problem causing the need for demolition? After all, the leaning tower of Pisa is still standing... Just seems like the state of Texas is too swift far too often to throw the switch when it comes to eliminating problems.
Isn't there a lot of sand in the gulf islands to contend with?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
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RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
I would find it unusual that this clay layer wasn't know about by the local geotechs, normally they would have a good idea of the expected conditions.
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
I am not sold on the design/build concept at this time, I think it erodes objectivity and monitoring.
I have also never been a fan of a GC hiring/paying for in feld testing/inspection.
While this mess could very well be attributed to poor geotechnical/design, I would be looking hard at construction records, quantities, weather, credentials, diaries etc.
If the guys on the ground do not exercise due diligence at all times, the geotech stuff is meaningless.
This would not be the first time I have seen folks get in too big of a hurry to do things correctly.
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
IE, it's hard to tell what's going on from a news story which is based on the petition filed.
The clay issue could be as simple as a statement in the report saying "There's probably a clay layer down there, we should drill deeper and find it."
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
Why? The developer's market is currently dead so going forward and finishing the project would result in more losses. Note the claim for $125M in damages instead of the amount to get the building fixed. The economics right now of the project does not make sense so for the developer, it's better to just demolish the building and claim the losses against the designers. Even the developer admitted this in the article. That's where I have a problem with. That $125M claim is probably for the cost of the construction so far and if they get awarded near that amount, the designers pretty much paid for the unfinished building and do not get to keep the building?
I can't comment about the culpability of the designers as I don't have any data to make an opinion either way but I hope the judge will order this case to mediation and see thru the developer's tactics. The defects might as well be valid but they are being used as an excuse to kill the whole project and recoup some of their investments when I think the market economics is the one driving it all along.
RE: What's Going On In Texas? Part 2
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