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$25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp
7

$25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

$25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

(OP)
i got laid off recently. no job openings in my field at least until mid next year.
i work for EPC oil and gas.
i have a PE with 9 yrs exp.

i got a job offer for $25/hr, no 401k, no overtime pay
from a small company.

i was thinking accept it and leave later.
but my interviewer said his biggest fear is accepting me
and then me leaving after a few months.

they are looking for permanent position.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

If you don't have something else available and that's best for right now, then take it.  You can't worry about employer's fears being realized when you find something more in line with your salary requirements.  It's more than you can make in retail.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

For 50K a year with no benefits for an experienced engineer, this company better get used to people coming and going.  

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

As much as I hate leading people on, at the end of the day that's his problem, if they can't pay enough to keep people, then they'll have to accept the associated risk.

Heck, to over use a cliche, even if he found his ideal candidate who swore on the life of his children that he'd work there till he died, if he gets hit by a bus the next day that hasn't really helped him.

There is no such thing as permanent anymore, if there truely ever was, unforseen things happen.

So, while I'd have trouble promising I'd stay when I knew I'd jump at the first opportunity, I wouldn't turn down the opportunity if it's what's best for me and more importantly my family.

Mid next year is a ways off, are you happy taking unemployment till then?  Financially can you afford to?  Even if you wait, will the big gap in employment be an issue?  Not sure how true it is in engineering specifically, but statistically the longer you are out, the harder it is to get a job (or so I've read).

They can get away with offering this kind of money in this climate, they are essentially taking advantage of the bad economy.  Fair enough, but they have to be willing to have a better economy taken advantage of by employees.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Take it! I've been out of work for 8 months, there is not much out there!

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Unemployment Compensation just pays the bills.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Counter-offer to $75k. You don't get what you don't ask for. Sometimes you don't get what you do ask for. Fortune favors the bold.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Asking for more is a good point, though I got the impression the 50k might be take it or leave it from the OP

thread731-254534: Can't find a job-unemployed for over 7 months - are you ready to be this poor guy?

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RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

(OP)
i just realized to hell with him..
if he is unethical enough to take advantage of me by offering me this salary, i'll be unethical as well accepting this offer and leaving him once i get a good job offer

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

i don't think it's unethical. i just think that's probably all  he can pay. read KENAT's statement again.  

Thanks,
Scott

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Take it, but be honest.
Like any other job (poorly paid or not), you would leave it if a sufficiently better offer came up elsewhere.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

No need to cop these attitudes.  It's a tough economy and he's bottom-feeding.  So the company can't or refuses to pay suitable wages & benefits.  Maybe they're so badly run that he can't afford anything more.  Maybe he's funding his extravagant lifestyle at the expense of his employees.  Maybe he's desperately trying to keep his company afloat in bad times.  Maybe it'll be the most thrilling satisfying job you'll ever have and you'll wonder why the guy isn't asking you to pay HIM for the priveledge.

Some options come to mind:
1.  Counteroffer a suitable amount.
2.  Inform the guy you can't take a full-time salaried position like this, and you'll consider his offer as a recurring 90-day contract position.
3.  Blow it off, keep looking.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

There are a lot of factors that could be at play here.

A lot of smaller companies don't offer 401k - and the issue of whether engineers should be paid overtime has been debated.  Do they offer a bonus at the end of the year?  Do they offer flex time where the extra hours are translated to increased time off?  Do they offer health insurance?  Some companies offer lower base salaries but do offer other perks.

There are times when the company thinks/realizes you might be overqualified for what they are offering.

I almost didn't get hired because the president of the company thought that someone with my degree and experience would not want to stay with his company very long or was overqualified for the position.  I didn't think that, got hired on a part time basis for a couple months, then hired full time and have been here about 6 years.

These times are also tough on companies, too.  He might be not able to pay you what you think you deserve because if he did, he wouldn't be able to stay afloat.

It could be the company knows they are not the most enticing for what they want to hire.  Maybe the last few people in the position did just what they feared and they are looking for somebody who is not going to use them as a temporary stop on their career path.  

You could also have salary expectations that are not in line with the type of work this company does.  You state you come from the EPC oil and gas field.  Maybe this company is not in that field and the salary for 9 yr experienced PE is different in the company's field.

I realize there are not "permanent" positions anymore, but to take a professional job for a few months until a better offer presents itself - to me is unethical and dishonest, especially since the company has expressed its desire for a "permanent" employee.

 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Counter-offer 65K (75 "feels" a bit too high,but I can't quantify that feeling), accept his offer in return and work professionally = DON'T go interviewing every phone that comes but equally simply leave your name on the local job web pages.  Prove your value (after six months) and ask for a salary review and progress/status review.  

Make sure he knows your real value at the six month point, 1 year point, 2 year point.  If after 2 years, he is still not paying you adequately, then look at the local environment and see what has changed.    

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

If he's a small private company and he wants you to help him out by accepting a (vastly) sub-par salary, counter-offer with a proposal that you be given a piece of the action if and when he makes a profit.  Structure this so that if he makes a profit typical for his industry, he pays you a salary typical of that industry.  If he does better than average, then so do you.  That makes you less a chump employee taking his bottom-feeder salary because you have no choice, and more of a potential business partner who is willing to share some of his pain for some of his future gain.  But accept no vague promises- get it in writing.

If the position is one of cubicle-filler rather than one where you have any legitimate chance of helping the owner make it profitable enough to pay its people properly, the shared profit argument is pointless.  But even as a pure employee, I've learned that it never hurts to ask.  If you accept the $50k without even ASKING for more, you'll be establishing yourself as a chump.  That puts you in a disadvantaged negotiating position if and when you find out you really like the place and the people you work with and the work itself, and the only thing making you want to leave is the money and the way it makes you feel about yourself.

As far as the guilt and blame thing, get over it.  This is business- people trading services and goods for money.  Offering a low salary is not unethical, nor is accepting one, nor is leaving a company for a better salary- even after a short time.  Compelling utterly uncompensated overtime, violating employment contract conditions, making verbal agreements about potential future salary or benefits that are denied later- those are all unethical.   

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

westheimer,

It is the job of a hiring manager to bring in the right person for what the company needs, both immediately and long term.  It's your job to take care of yourself and your family.  If these two things don't correlate and you are hired and leave shortly thereafter I would place the blame on the person doing the hiring, provided you are completely honest in your dealings with the company during recruitment.

That being said, if you accept this job and go into it with the attitude you displayed in your post from 22 Sep 09 20:30 I would not expect things to go well.  Try as you might to prevent it, this attitude will in all likelihood spill over into your work.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

At no point does the OP say that the job requires a PE engineer with 9 years experience, all he does say is the job is not in the field he has 9 years experience in.

If the world's greatest rocket scientist gets a job flipping burgers, he is only ever going to earn the going rate for flipping burgers not designing rockets.

Whilst 52K might not be good money for a PE with 9 years experience you will find some very good people willing to work for that kind of money especially in today's economy.

With any new start (however highly qualified) there is a settling in expense especially if they are working in a new field, it is perfectly understandable why the company would be concerned about him jumping ship at the first available opportunity.

The one thing this does highlight is why people can be seen as overqualified and why employers are reluctant to employ someone who is. Personally I think the company would be mad to take anyone on who feels the way the OP does, at the end of the day who is going to benefit from it?
 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I say you take the job, but keep looking.

Your number one priority is you and your family if you have one.  It is NOT your problem to worry about him and his company.  It is obvious his priority is himself or company and not his employees.

Do not let this guy guilt you in to staying at a job that pays less than most engineers make right out of college.  I bet if the situation were the other way, as in you would be asking him to take a job that paid so little, he would leave you stranded the first offer he got.

With 9 years and a PE you won't need his reference for another job.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

If I was out of work I'd be happy to get $25/hr.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Take it.
Sure, the salary is insulting, but at least it's a salary.  My college roommate just took a job for $38k without blinking an eye b/c it's better than nothing.  He's a recent grad, but it's sort of the same situation as you.
Take the job, but keep looking.

I hope this helps, and I hope you can make a decision you're confortable living with.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I cannot find anywhere in the state regulations where it says that its illegal/unethical to quit a job a short time after starting it.

One of my former employers hired 2 of us at the same time. After a week, he threw 1 of us out, for no cause other than "I don't think its working out".

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

The first job that I had out of college was a field engineer, which was a glorified technician.  I was overqualified for the job, but they needed people to fill a difficult region (NYC).  The manager was afraid that I would leave after a few months if an engineering job came.  So he made me sign a statement that I would not leave for two years.  Fortunate for me, the same manager was let go eight months after I was hired.  At the same time an engineering job offer came which I took.  Because the manger left, there was no history (and nobody remembered) the deal I had with the manager which gave me a way out after just working eight months with the company.

To the OP, just be carful, they may ask the same.  

After thinking about this, I wonder how legal this arrangement was.  Maybe other can chime in.
 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Two Ball, I seem to recall a clause (in Canadian law) that says that a non-compete contract is non-enforceable if it is worded in such a way that it precludes someone from making a reasonable living in their field.  That is, if you are an X engineer and a company makes you sign a non-compete that specifies "you will not work as an X engineer anywhere else" (as opposed to "you will not work as an X engineer in a specific capacity for a specific competition) then it is illegal and non-enforceable.  Does anyone have more reliable information on this than my memory?  I would tend to think that an agreement not to quit and get a better job would fall under the same heading.  Practically speaking, I don't think that any kind of agreement not to quit is enforceable, because you can always just show up and do nothing productive until they fire you (provided you don't need a reference I suppose); productivity can't be forced.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I wouldn't sign a contract without the employer at least guaranteeing employment for the same period as you agree to stay for.
A contract has to work both ways.
It might not mean much with smaller companies.  

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Unemployment in CO was only $12.5 an hour.  That being said, I was able to better my situation financially. I did have to relocate though, and am still trying to sell a house. At least I am still in the state. I got picked up through some connections pretty quickly, but I know others that have been out for a long time.

I would ask where future salary ranges could be expected as you become familiar with the industry.  After that decide if you want it long term. Is it an at will state?

I expect it would finish along these lines:
"Can you guarantee that you will keep me employed?"
"No, we cannot."
"Well, I cannot guarantee that I will stay for a set amount of time either, but I am willing to put forth my efforts into making this ..."

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Please do not take the job, with the expectation that you will quit when the next one comes along.  This is the wrong attitude to go into a job. If that is the case, go and flip burgers to keep you off of the streets.

Look at the job as an opportunity to progress. I like the idea raised by moltenmetal.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

"Please do not take the job, with the expectation that you will quit when the next one comes along."

Why not? It's likely to provide useful experience, unlike flipping burgers. The longer you are out of the game the harder it is to get back in.

Moving on to the next one may be the only opportunity to progress.  

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Take the job. They have a need to fill the position, and you have a need to earn a living. If they can't or won't pay enough to keep you in the long term then that is a *choice* they are making, not something forced upon them by law. If they *want* to keep you then they can, but they need to compete on equal terms with other the employers who also prize whatever skills you have.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

"Please do not take the job, with the expectation that you will quit when the next one comes along.  This is the wrong attitude to go into a job"

What a strange attitude. If my employer doesn't attempt to equal what I see coming from a new opportunity, why would I hang around? Never have up til now.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I would like to add that I would take the job.  The phrase "steping stone" comes to mind.   

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Tickle, what the hell fairy tale world do you live in?

Ever tried living on burger flipping money as an adult?  My guess is that unemployment pays as much if not more.

Plus it's still a gap in engineering employment which would be an issue.

While it's better to enjoy what you do, at the end of the day unless some of you are independantly wealthy, we work to earn a living.  The OP can almost certainly make a better living at the eng job than flipping burgers.

Sure, don't dwell on the attitude but expecting not to have it when the job clearly is relatively low paid compared to the experience, come on.

 

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Take the job.  It's not like they chain you to the desk by your foot.  It may happen that it's something that you LOVE and they find exactly what they need and you get more money and they get what they want and the world's a better place.

(You may get a winning lottery ticket, too.  It COULD happen)

Or it could be totally horrible and you leave at the end of the first week.

Likely, though, is that you will go to work there, rock along for a while feeling things out as you further explore the job market, and if something else comes along that looks better, you talk to the boss and say "Here's the deal..."

You'll probably feel better working than waiting, though.

It's difficult to leave an employer that has built up a trust in you, but sometimes it has to be done.   

old field guy

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Take the job and then keep looking for a better paying one. 'Forget' them for offering an experienced PE so little.  

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Quote (Tickle):

Please do not take the job, with the expectation that you will quit when the next one comes along.  This is the wrong attitude to go into a job.

Huh? Isn't that what most people do? Why wouldn't I expect to leave for a better opportunity, ever?

Weird.

V

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I know we all look for the best opportunity - but to me, personal integrity is important.

If I am interviewing for a position, and the interviewer states a reluctance about hiring me since he is afraid I will leave soon after I am hired for better opportunities and I don't say anything - though I am doing just that -- then I think that is dishonest.  My company had that happen to them.  They hired a senior level engineer who was here for a couple months, but was still looking, and left for a company that was closer to home.  If it was known he was going to still be looking, he would not be hired.

How would we feel if the roles were reversed.

Say you get the job, but unbenownst to you, the company kept looking for somebody "more qualified" and when they found one - they canned you?

Would we consider that ethical/honest?  Not saying it doesn't happen, but would anybody want to work for that company once word got out?

Now I am not saying that one cannot still be looking for something better, but I would talk to the interviewer before hand that I felt the position was going to be short term - unless the pay/benefits were more in line with experience.  That way there are no suprises when you do find something.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

PEDARRIN2-

To me, that's not personal integrity. I have no loyalty to my company, as they have no loyalty to me (as expressed very clearly within my "at-will" contract).

I always have my resume out there, just in case. I haven't found one place that I've worked at that I've liked enough to not think there could be something better in the job market.  

V

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I agree with those saying take the job, keep looking, and don't feel bad about it.

I compare it to the following: If I lived in a small town and went to the only gas station nearby and then they started building a new one across the street. If the owner of the older gas station told me, I'm worried I won't be able to compete because I've been marking prices way up since I was the only option available. I certainly wouldn't continue going to that gas station just because we had a working relationship. I also wouldn't start driving to a different town and going someplace else so that I wasn't continuing at the old gas station with the intent of leaving soon. The relationship is just that, a working business relationship. There are other factors of course, but that's the way I see it.

Of course, if I considered the owner of the firm a good friend, maybe I would pay a little more for loyalty to a friend. However, I would also work for a lower salary if I thought of my boss as a good friend. (To a reasonable extent in both cases, of course)

-- MechEng2005

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

If you agree to work for a company, and feel you should stay on with that company out of loyalty even if they are paying you less than half of what your worth, then you are a chump who is being taken advantage of.  

As a business, they expect you will leave if it is in your best interest to do so, and you expect that they will let you go if it is in their best interests to do so.  By expressing their worries that you are going to leave soon, but hiring you anyway, they are acknowledging that they are under-compensating you and are fine with it.  Also, by telling you their "fears" they are making an underhanded play at your sense of loyalty in the hopes that you won't pursue fair compensation in another job so that they can take advantage of you further.  That is a lack of integrity.  Follow supply and demand in the job market; use the job as a stepping stone to something reasonable.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

In my region of the country $25/hr is a low end offer for entry level positions. IMO, the offer is pathetic for a PE with 9 years of experience.  I wouldn't feel bad about taking the job and leaving when something better comes around.

If he wants to pay entry level money then he needs to find an entry level candidate.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

PJones,
something doesn't add up... a PE with 9 yrs experience is worth (only) $75k/yr but the general consensus is that the same PE consulting for himself is worth a minimum of roughly $75/hr. ??? why is he not starting his own business?...  

Thanks,
Scott

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

That's only a 100% markup. That is way short on what is required for a succesful business. A minimum multiplier of 3 is typical, and I have seen 10 (ouch, that's defence work for you)

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

My post was to try and diffuse some of the "evil employer" undertones that are prevalent through this thread.

If you go in to a job with a negative attitude - I am only here under suferance until something better comes along - who is going to win? Each day will be a drag, the employer will be p1ssed, negative references (formal or informal), etc etc

Whereas if you go in with a positive attitude - this job is the best job I can get, I am going to get something out of it - you may actually gain something.

If a more lucrative job comes along, you are in a much better position to negotiate with employer if you are an asset to them. Hey, if they sees you as doing a poor job, under sufferance, he may get rid of you!

And so if the engineering job is going to work out bad for you because of the attitude, then the time is better spent flipping burgers (whatever the short term economic disadvantages).

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Quote (tickle):

And so if the engineering job is going to work out bad for you because of the attitude, then the time is better spent flipping burgers (whatever the short term economic disadvantages).

No. It's not. If you're in the engineering field and want to stay in the engineering, and you have a choice between a low-paying engineering job and flipping burgers--you're an idiot, if you choose the burger job. Regardless of attitude.

Of course that's only my opinion, but I feel like someone else has to agree with me on that.

V

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

The best way to deal with any job offer is honestly.  I think the best suggestion above was for a short term renewable contract position.  Say that the offer of 50K is too low for a permanent position but you would be willing to fill the gap for a few months while the employer continued to look for someone more suited for that position and while you continued to look for a position more in line with your experience.  At 50K per year he is obviously looking for an entry level candidate, which you are not.  You can help him bridge the gap in his team while he helps you bridge the gap in your employment.  If I was this employer this might be a great opportunity.  You could not only do the work, but help with recruiting the new position and training the new hire where your experience would be even more valuable.  This is what I might call a win-win situation.  And no one is being false or underhanded.  Maybe I'm just old school, but I do feel honor is worth the price.  Just because others are dishonest does not motivate me to race to the bottom of the moral ladder to keep up.  There will always be dishonest people, but we always have to choice not to be.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Quote (KirbyWan):

At 50K per year he is obviously looking for an entry level candidate, which you are not.

That's not necessarily true. He may be looking for a PE with 9 years of experience, he just doesn't want to pay that much.

V

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I have to back vc66 on this one.  Maybe 50k is all he has for whatever reason but he may want/need more experience than a new grad.  Maybe not 9 years at PE but still more.

As the employer you're going to look to get maximum bang for the buck, considering other factors like probable length of stay.  So, he's taking advantage of the economy to even entertain the idea of someone with 9 years xp.

However, trying to predict likely length of stay is futile because there are so many factors to consider, some of them completely unknowable (the, "will he get hit by a bus" factor).

Depending on circumstances, maybe negotiating with him has scope, it's not clear from the OP.  However you may also negotiate yourself out of a needed job.

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RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

He may have a valid requirement, but it still isn't reasonable.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

No one has commented (except someone early on) that maybe the requirements for the job don't require a PE.  There are a lot of engineering jobs that are in exempt industries where you won't need a stamp.  $50k isn't a horrible offer in an exempt industry (yes it's low but not insulting) especially given the state of the economy.  You can't expect to be compensated for experience or education that don't line up with the job requirements.  

If I were in your shoes, I would calculate the minimum offer that you can take to pay the bills.  Then I would try to negotiate a higher wage and start off around $60k.  If they come back and say that $50k is all that they can pay then you have to make a decision.  If you really want some good advice, post this in Monster's forums and see what their career advisers suggest.  They are usually pretty helpful.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Of course, on Monster "you're" mileage may vary...

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Yes that was exactly my point Nomlaser, a PE that may not be required and 9 years experience in an unrelated field are worthless.

Everything has a value, it doesn't matter how much I paid for my house or stocks they are only worth what someone is prepared to pay for them at today's rate.

All this that offer is insulting etc is complete rubbish, they have made an offer take it or leave it. If anyone is truly worth more then they will go out and find someone who is willing to pay it, if they are not out there then you are not worth more.

As I said earlier I think the company would be mad to take on someone with the attitude of the OP.
 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Will they promise that when you no longer suit them that they will not fire you. I very much doubt.

You need not declare it, but you can treat them as you reasonably expect they would treat you.

Regards
Pat
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RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

what part of the country is that, where 9 years plus PE cannot find a job over $25/hr?
Not worth sticking around such a region.
 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

(OP)
My PE and 9 years exp is VERY related. I'll be designing STEEL towers, etc.. I've designed steel structures for 9 years.

I live in Houston, and ALL EPC companies in Houston are not hiring as of the moment.
I dont have building or bridge experience.

Anyhow, I'll start this Monday.
I dont think it's wrong to work for a company and still post your resume in Monster.
Besides, they are not paying me to look for work,
they pay me to do my job which I will do.
What I do in my free time, whether look for work or not, is none of their businees.

 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

With a handle like Westheimer, I wonderered if you were in Houston, but thought- it couldn't be- that's the place where all the "don't worry- we'll train you!" recruitment has been going on for the past few years?!?!  

All booms bust, eventually, and when they do, a boomtown is not a nice place to be.  I hope you find something more reasonable soon, Westheimer.  But if it doesn't, don't be afraid to get out of Dodge.  I wouldn't suggest western Canada, as the bloom's off the wild rose there too.

Then again, marrying yourself to one industry and one class of employers (oil and gas EPCs) isn't all that smart a career move either.  Don't have any bridge or building experience?  Better GET some- that'd be worth a pretty steep pay cut in my opinion.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

"Then again, marrying yourself to one industry and one class of employers (oil and gas EPCs) isn't all that smart a career move either."

Well, the power industry has been a safe haven for the full careers of a fair number of engineers and at present the industry is losing them faster than they can replace them. Some industries are less prone to cyclic boom and bust - those industries can be a very good place to tightly ally yourself to.
  

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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

"Then again, marrying yourself to one industry and one class of employers (oil and gas EPCs) isn't all that smart a career move either."

I suspect that it's an over-generalisation. In this increasingly complex market specialists will always be required.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Sure, apsix, if you want to be unemployed whenever the cyclic industry these "specialists" are employed in enters its down-cycle...They've just worked for oil and gas EPCs because that's where the work has been in their town.

The OP's a structural engineer, not an oil reservoir or subsea specialist etc. from what I can figure.  If they want a better chance of decent employment in the down cycle, they need broader skills.  Oil and gas is in the down-cycle worldwide- it's not a simple matter of moving house.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I once heard that the true value of an employer was not how he hired people but how he let them go when times were tough.  In this situation the hiring company is expecting gold for the price of peanuts and should expect someone to move on if they don't pay enough.
When I moved first to the US I was offered a position below my experience level but I took it for the experience.  I left it 10 months later for almost double the money.  I explained that the money was a main reason for why I left and the employer accepted it.  Didn't like it, but I noticed he wasn't putting his hand in his pocket to keep me either.
So look at it from the employers perspective and take the job for you.  Keep looking for better and more suited work to your desired payscale.  It's out there, despite the recession.

drawn to design, designed to draw

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I also live and work in houston as a civil and sometimes structural engineer - several points:

First, this was an insulting offer, however, turn it into a business arrangement. What I would do is tell the guy that I would be very interested in helping him with his projects under a non-exclusive contract arrangement. Get your own professional insurance coverage (it's actually pretty cheap right now) and tell him you will bill him by the hour as a sub-consultant. This is win-win for both parties - he doesn't have to pay unemployment or health insurance, you are free to pursue other work and set the parameters of the relationship. You work when and where you chose, you provide him with the finished product according to a written contract and he get the quality work of a professional engineer with no further employment obligations. of course, tell him that the hourly rate will be in excess of $25 (I would say $70/hr is fair market)

If he doesn't go for this - I would think the guy is on an ego trip and simply wants to abuse you for your credentials for as little money as possible.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I'd take the job and re-evaluate the situation a year later. Everything is negoitable.  

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

westheimer1234,

take the job, tell them what they want to hear. If tey really wanted to keep you they would pay you a decent rate.

Here in the UK oil and gas industry structural engineers get at least 50 pounds ($US75) per hour but this is a recession and beggars cant be choosers. Wait until things pick up before ytou move on.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

2
Don't buy that line of crap.  They know damn well that their policy is to use, abuse and dispose.  They want a pulse (not necessairily from a still warm body) sitting in every chair, where, if there are arm rests, its only so the dead guys don't fall completely off the chair, ... so they can charge their client $150/h and still hold back on the grins.  Their current contract is only for 9 to 18 months of work and if they don't get another one by then they will tell you to please not slam the door on the way out.  If they do get another and you haven't left yet, they will have to get and set the net out on the street again and see what falls in.  You see there is always some guy, even some good guys, that needs a job for some reason or another.

Tell him simply that life s**ks and he SHOULD worry, but you know he won't because he really doesn't give a s*** and you'll start Monday and be gone as soon as you find a $25.50/h rate.  He'll respect you for being a really wise SOB and go back to checking his nets.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Oh, and don't you worry about leaving for 25.50 either.  Later on, if you happen to need a job again and these guys just happen to have a contract, I promise that they will take you back.  NO questions asked.

Backlog rules the world for them.  As long as they have a backlog, you're safe, if they don't, don't expect to be around for more than 2 weeks ... maximum. There are very few exceptions to that rule.  Very very few.  I know of only ONE, but engineers still run that company.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Fine tuning of grammar, punctuation, and spelling can also help your career.

Chris
SolidWorks 09 SP4.1
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I'm inclined to say take the job and see what happens; but I also am angered when I think back on the years I wasted being underappreciated because I didn't want to move my family.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

RoyTyrell has a good idea.

Are you willing to relocate for work?
Are you on LinkedIn?
Have you signed up for www.oilandgasjobsearch.com?

I understand BigInch's comments all too well but they don't help right now. It is survival and hanging on for a better day.

I think the salary is criminal and can only be a short term solution. Better to keep active and positive. I have been in this situation before and survived.  

I believe the economic climate is a great opportunity for engineers to collaborate and create a new business model for the EPC business. The current defaulting one really is bad. Oil and Gas companies need to pay engineers who manage not pay managers who engineer. This will be cheaper, faster and better. In the current model OG clients are throwing money out the window paying managers for cheap engineering.



 

Robert Mote
www.motagg.com

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Hello All,

The last couple of times I saw something like this, that particular highly qualified individual working for cheap becoame the reason why no one else received a raise.

Thankfully the first scumbag employer who pulled this ran the business into the ground and went bankrupt years ago, and the second one isn't much better off, stil limping along, but he has a high employee turnover rate.

I'm just speaking of my experiences with the HR folks who, during a year end review told me that... "We can't pay you more as a weldor(no raises that year), when we have a fully capable experienced weldor/welding engineer(had bachelor's degree and 20 some years experience, just hired a few weeks before) on staff who is making only a couple bucks more an hour than you!"

So I went on making a whopping $9/hr and the welding engineer who was there for a few months was keeping himself busy by looking for another job, keeping the shop wages low, and working for $12/hr.  Great guy, it's just that the nimrod employer took advantage of the situation.

Just venting over horrid management and the situations that develop from said management.

Have a good day.

 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I have to agree with many of the comments here.  Striving for honesty and loyalty is great, but I run my professional life as a "FOR PROFIT" enterprise just like my employers.

Does that mean I will leave if someone offers me %1 more? No because I have a business relationship I like, but if someone offered me 15% more, I would have to reevaluate.

My point is this, take a job if you need it, but no way would I stick around for say a year and then start looking, you probably just gave up $20,000.  

Back to the issue of "Non Compete Contracts"  yes, they are basically unenforcable, I play basketball with a lawyer, and my former employer had me sign one of these clauses so I asked him about how strictly they can be enforced.  

His information was just about what was said here, no one can keep you from making a living.  He said an Employer could pay you not to work for a competitor/client, but that is really the only way around this.  

I doubt may Engr. Firms want to pay someone to sit home for 6-12 months.

this message has been approved for citizen to elect kepharda 2008

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

"Striving for honesty and loyalty is great, but I run my professional life as a "FOR PROFIT" enterprise just like my employers."

Couldn't agree more.

Too many employers and managers use professionalism as a stick with which to beat their professional employees, while reserving the majority of the benefit for themselves.  What they're advocating is actually amateurism- doing something for the love of it alone- rather than professionalism, i.e. doing something for a living!

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

This is a very interesting thread.  I am actually in a very similar position, although to a lesser extent.  However, in my situation I'd have to relocate for this new position.  The salary is equal to what I was making when I was laid off a month ago, however, in that job I had not got a raise in 4 years.

I was wondering what all of you think of the idea posted above by Tyger Dawg.  Ask for 90 dates at a certain rate and reevaluate after.

In my situation I have a few options I think may be coming up in the next few months, but taking this new position is more money than EI.  However, there is a cost of moving to a new city, not to mention the higher cost of living.

 

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Purdue87

Sorry I haven't followed this thread for awhile.

"PJones,something doesn't add up... a PE with 9 yrs experience is worth (only) $75k/yr but the general consensus is that the same PE consulting for himself is worth a minimum of roughly $75/hr. ??? why is he not starting his own business?... "

I don't begin to believe a PE with 9 years of relevant experience is only worth $75k/year. Maybe without the PE?

If people keep accepting low offers, employers will keep the offers low. I've seen experienced engineers make less than kids right out of school, because the average starting salary has grown but their own salaries have not.  My point is that we all have more control over what we make, as long as we are not afraid to go somewhere else.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

That's nice in theory PJ, it doesn't quite work if there is a surplus of engineers and others will work for less.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

It works better than most people think. I've had employers reject my counter-offer, then accept it a month later. I maintain that what you get paid has little to do with what you are worth, and a great deal to do with how bold you are.

It works especially well during recessions. Counter-intuitive, but true.

Also, I should qualify my other statement - I was considering the 9 years of experience as that after the PE. So, a degree + 13 in most jurisdictions. If it is 9 total, that's a different story.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

take it.  screw his cheap tail later when things get good.

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

Take it and keep looking.  I'm right around $25/hour with no overtime.  I get 401(k) contributions.  I have no PE, and only 3.5 years of experience and I feel like I'm being taken advantage of, so I can only imagine how you're feeling!

RE: $25/hr no overtime pay for PE with 9 yrs exp

I turned my former employer (Big EPC) into the board of engineers of a certain state (not Texas) for not having any licensed engineers in that state working on a project. I was the only one until I left.

The crap being produced by this company was laughable. And they expected *me* to sign off on it. HAHA! These smug f---s are going to get their license pulled, I warned them for months they were playing with fire.

They are under investigation now.

I started my own shop. already have 2 contracts in just 3 months of marketing > $40,000. (inspection work) not huge but a start. get the ball rolling.

never work for an EPC again.

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