Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
(OP)
Hey all,
I have lurked in the this forum for many years and have found the boards to be very balanced with respect to ethical questions. Here is my current situation: I have been fired from civil/site firm i have worked at for 10 years for trying to obtain work on the side.
For the past 15 months, I had been cut to 4 days a week for work and pay. I never actually obtained a job, but had offered some proposals to potential clients which never panned out. I never used company time or company resources for these proposals. I didn't utilize company files or drawings.
The only mistake I made was to ask another employee to assist me, on our off day, with preparing a tree plan if a proposal came through. I offered it to him so that he could potentially earn some extra money as well. (He complained about his families' finances quite frequently and so I thought I was helping him.) He initially accepted, but days later said no, then I was fired several days later by my boss.
I am not upset by the firing and surely expected it if it ever came to light. But I feel ok, knowing I only did "work" on Fridays(not company time and by "work" I mean talking with potential clients.) In fact, would never had considered doing this had we not been reduced to 4 days for almost 15 months. The owner never came in so we could talk about my issues as he was pursuing his own real estate business. I was always honest with potential clients that I still worked for my old company, but was available only on non work days. And I never pursued new or old clients of my old company. In fact, I am kind of embarrassed at the lack of effort I put into my self-marketing. And when I did work for the old company, I gave it my all and never sacrificed quality and effort.
The funny thing is, you would have thought that I had been doing this for years and made a great living at it. But at the time of my firing, I had 0 jobs performed by my the side company.
I will say that I had heard stories of how my old company was formed and I think he may be projecting some of what he did in his own startup on my actions in his mind. Which would explain the grilling I received when I left. Anyway, I just wanted to put this out and get any insight you guys have.
Thanks in advance...
I have lurked in the this forum for many years and have found the boards to be very balanced with respect to ethical questions. Here is my current situation: I have been fired from civil/site firm i have worked at for 10 years for trying to obtain work on the side.
For the past 15 months, I had been cut to 4 days a week for work and pay. I never actually obtained a job, but had offered some proposals to potential clients which never panned out. I never used company time or company resources for these proposals. I didn't utilize company files or drawings.
The only mistake I made was to ask another employee to assist me, on our off day, with preparing a tree plan if a proposal came through. I offered it to him so that he could potentially earn some extra money as well. (He complained about his families' finances quite frequently and so I thought I was helping him.) He initially accepted, but days later said no, then I was fired several days later by my boss.
I am not upset by the firing and surely expected it if it ever came to light. But I feel ok, knowing I only did "work" on Fridays(not company time and by "work" I mean talking with potential clients.) In fact, would never had considered doing this had we not been reduced to 4 days for almost 15 months. The owner never came in so we could talk about my issues as he was pursuing his own real estate business. I was always honest with potential clients that I still worked for my old company, but was available only on non work days. And I never pursued new or old clients of my old company. In fact, I am kind of embarrassed at the lack of effort I put into my self-marketing. And when I did work for the old company, I gave it my all and never sacrificed quality and effort.
The funny thing is, you would have thought that I had been doing this for years and made a great living at it. But at the time of my firing, I had 0 jobs performed by my the side company.
I will say that I had heard stories of how my old company was formed and I think he may be projecting some of what he did in his own startup on my actions in his mind. Which would explain the grilling I received when I left. Anyway, I just wanted to put this out and get any insight you guys have.
Thanks in advance...





RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
If your employer *had been formally advised* that you were seeking to perform independent contract services on scheduled off days, and had no objections, then this probably could not have happened.
I am in a similar situation: I am a full-time salaried employee at Company A as well as the sole proprietor and Permit Holder of my own Company B. For everything I do under Company B, I must first seek permission and approval from Company A. I also have had to file notarized statements of disclosure with respect to my being a responsible professional member of both companies with my Professional Licensing Association in order to even be permitted to continue with licensure as an engineer under this arrangement.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
So, there's no surprise that your company would immediately end their association with you. Had you told your employer, I'm sure they would have told you in no uncertain terms to not engage such activities without your own insurance and full indemnification of your employer. At which point, it would most likely have been economically unfeasible for you to do anything on the side.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
I hadn't even thought about that.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
How so? It wasn't carried out in their name or using their facilities - where do you make the association with the full-time employer?
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Another angle, maybe they were looking for reasons to let go of some people anyway and this was just an easy excuse to save on sevarance? Then again, if an at will employee that doesn't make much sense. Even my employer will sometimes lay off people it could have fired, and it's not like they're ethical giants. So, probably ignore my idea.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
If you're doing work that is taking potential clients away from your daytime employer, then I'd assume they would be a little POed about it, and had you asked they would have said "no". However, if you were a bartender on your day off, they probably wouldn't care.
That being said, I also understand your position of having a pay cut. It's not fun.
I'm really torn on this issue. I feel for your situation, but you didn't go about it in the right way.
Either way, good luck finding another job.
V
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Good luck...
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
And who knows, it migh turn out that the employer unknowing contributed materials and resources to the effort, and hence, is responsible for being irresponsible and not keeping track of what its employees are doing.
This sort of legal wrangling is quite common, even in high-risk activities, which is one reason that OBs pay higher premiums for malpractice insurance.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Today's phrase is joint and several liability. The only advantage we have in Canada or the UK is that lawyers cannot collect a portion of the settlement.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
"My employers, who are already overstaffed, sacked me because I set up in competition with them, without informing them, and tried to get another employee to help me".
Doesn't quite have the same ring to it though does it?
I agree you haven't really done anything outrageously bad, yet, but boy have you painted a target on your back with your intentions.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
I ran across and competed on 2 instances with moonlighters and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Most of the time, they low ball their fees because it's not their primary source of income. The only thing that kept me from calling their bosses is my belief in karma.
wagnes, good luck on your job search. If you decide to be a freelancer in the time being, you'll find out what I'm talking about.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
When downsizing is imminent a lot of guys would give their eye teeth to get something on their co-workers that means the co-worker gets the bullet and not them.
But, I note you haven't said right out that your co-worker shopped you and it may be your boss learned some other way?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
RacingAZ, every now and then karma needs a little help to get the ball rolling.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
There's an old saying: "If you go looking for trouble, you will find it."
If you find that a person has violated the state ethical guidelines, then report them to the state board, not to their boss.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
In RacingAZ's case it may have been as simple as letting the other guys know that they are devaluing their services by cutting their rates so low. In other cases where there are state code issues then the state board is the place.
I guess the karma thing is a trigger for me. I've seen to many people sit back and get screwed over while waiting for karma, rather than being proactive.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
a) they get fired and become permanent moonlighter, that will compete against for other jobs.
b) they see fit to get even with you, by bad mouthing you to everyone in the state.
c) the boss already knows and decides to complain to your boss.
I could go on, at the end of the day a moonlighter or a single man operation is going to be able to charge less, service is the important part. If they drop their fee's and don't provide professional service, then you can take action, or as i would prefer inform the person whom engaged the engineer and was unhappy with the service of the possible avenues for complaint.
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
A moonlighter may well be using someone elses resources for free without their consent. That is not fair competition.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Ron's the bigcheese, pats the Publican. I take it pat that you punked Ron (these are Ron's words)?
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Also, isn't talking to the other guys about their rates considered collusion?
I actually filed a complaint on another PE running a plan stamping operations. The evidence fell into my lap as it was in the e-mail sent to me and forwarded it to the board. This one was easy as I didn't have to do any digging around.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
I assume that you only mean it's not fair competition IF he's using resources other than his own. Correct? Because I can't understand why it's not fair competition just because one guy has a day job, and one guy doesn't.
V
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
However, if one had a day job, which allowed him to lowball with impunity, is that considered "fair" or "just business?"
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Apart from that, if, on your own, you can do something faster and cheaper than your new-found competition and fully satisfy the law and the Client, that's just fair and good business.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Your employer doesn't own you. If your work doesn't compete with them, you don't use your employer's resource, and you haven't promised them differently, you should be free to do as you wish when you're not being paid by them.
I'd say they don't own your friend either. If your suggestion to him didn't include an inducement to work on company time or compete with your employer, I still see no problem.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
That, my good fellow, is what they call "price fixing." There's at least one bookfull of regulations in the US to criminalize such discussions.
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
I just reread my post. I think it says exactly what I mean.
He does not need to actually own the resources he uses, but he must have the permission of the owner to use them for that purpose or they may be rented or they may be legitimate free copies or whatever.
I thought
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
to finish the above post
was quite clear and not ambiguous at all.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Must learn to read good.
Sorry about that. Your post was quite clear the second time it rolled around my brain.
V
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
I was a bit concerned that maybe Auslish and USlish had some different spin I missed.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
Your original posting was quite clear.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies