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Fired for Trying to work on off Day.
2

Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

(OP)
Hey all,

I have lurked in the this forum for many years and have found the boards to be very balanced with respect to ethical questions. Here is my current situation: I have been fired from civil/site firm i have worked at for 10 years for trying to obtain work on the side.

For the past 15 months, I had been cut to 4 days a week for work and pay. I never actually obtained a job, but had offered some proposals to potential clients which never panned out. I never used company time or company resources for these proposals. I didn't utilize company files or drawings.

The only mistake I made was to ask another employee to assist me, on our off day, with preparing a tree plan if a proposal came through. I offered it to him so that he could potentially earn some extra money as well. (He complained about his families' finances quite frequently and so I thought I was helping him.) He initially accepted, but days later said no, then I was fired several days later by my boss.

I am not upset by the firing and surely expected it if it ever came to light. But I feel ok, knowing I only did "work" on Fridays(not company time and by "work" I mean talking with potential clients.) In fact, would never had considered doing this had we not been reduced to 4 days for almost 15 months. The owner never came  in so we could talk about my issues as he was pursuing his own real estate business. I was always honest with potential clients that I still worked for my old company, but was available only on non work days. And I never pursued new or old clients of my old company. In fact, I am kind of embarrassed at the lack of effort I put into my self-marketing. And when I did work for the old company, I gave it my all and never sacrificed quality and effort.

The funny thing is, you would have thought that I had been doing this for years and made a great living at it. But at the time of my firing, I had 0 jobs performed by my the side company.

I will say that I had heard stories of how my old company was formed and I think he may be projecting some of what he did in his own startup on my actions in his mind. Which would explain the grilling I received when I left. Anyway, I just wanted to put this out and get any insight you guys have.

Thanks in advance...

 

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

It is probably your non-disclosure beforehand of what you were preparing / planning to do that got you in trouble.  It becomes a potential conflict of interests (possibly competing for the same or similar work as your employer) at that point.

If your employer *had been formally advised* that you were seeking to perform independent contract services on scheduled off days, and had no objections, then this probably could not have happened.

I am in a similar situation: I am a full-time salaried employee at Company A as well as the sole proprietor and Permit Holder of my own Company B.  For everything I do under Company B, I must first seek permission and approval from Company A.  I also have had to file notarized statements of disclosure with respect to my being a responsible professional member of both companies with my Professional Licensing Association in order to even be permitted to continue with licensure as an engineer under this arrangement.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

In addition to it being a conflict of interest, which is indeed an issue, you potentially opened your employer up to the full brunt of any potential lawsuits stemming from your side activities  .

So, there's no surprise that your company would immediately end their association with you.  Had you told your employer, I'm sure they would have told you in no uncertain terms to not engage such activities without your own insurance and full indemnification of your employer.  At which point, it would most likely have been economically unfeasible for you to do anything on the side.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Good point, IRstuff.

I hadn't even thought about that.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Quote:

...you potentially opened your employer up to the full brunt of any potential lawsuits stemming from your side activities

How so? It wasn't carried out in their name or using their facilities - where do you make the association with the full-time employer?
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

"How so?" US legal system.

Another angle, maybe they were looking for reasons to let go of some people anyway and this was just an easy excuse to save on sevarance?  Then again, if an at will employee that doesn't make much sense.  Even my employer will sometimes lay off people it could have fired, and it's not like they're ethical giants.  So, probably ignore my idea.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

The topic of my running a side business always comes up during the first interview with a new company (always by them, not me).  I tell them I have successfully run a business for over 7 years with no effect on my 8-5 work, and they are welcome to verify that with my former employers.  I give a vague outline of the type of work I do, and so far no one has questioned any further after that answer.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

I'm usually of the camp that the employer can stick it where the sun don't shine; however, this is only if you're doing work completely outside the scope of your day job.

If you're doing work that is taking potential clients away from your daytime employer, then I'd assume they would be a little POed about it, and had you asked they would have said "no". However, if you were a bartender on your day off, they probably wouldn't care.

That being said, I also understand your position of having a pay cut. It's not fun.

I'm really torn on this issue. I feel for your situation, but you didn't go about it in the right way.

Either way, good luck finding another job.  

V

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Or, since you are now unemployed with very little chance of employment, you could strike out on your own, although the timing with the economy will make marketing results horrible at best.

Good luck...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

It appers you were fired for both competing against your employer and for poaching your employer's employees in this effort.  This isn't "moonlighting".

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Or that it APPEARED to you former employer that that was the case.  That's all it takes you know.  It does not have to be true to be acted upon.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

If the OP's design failed, and I were the customer, who would I sue?  The itinerant worker, or his day employer with the deeper pockets?  Nevermind that the employer might get out of it, once it goes to court, but the employer will surely incur some legal costs just to get its name off the suit.  

And who knows, it migh turn out that the employer unknowing contributed materials and resources to the effort, and hence, is responsible for being irresponsible and not keeping track of what its employees are doing.

This sort of legal wrangling is quite common, even in high-risk activities, which is one reason that OBs pay higher premiums for malpractice insurance.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Thank God our judicial system isn't like yours.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

ScottyUK,

   Today's phrase is joint and several liability.  The only advantage we have in Canada or the UK is that lawyers cannot collect a portion of the settlement.

               JHG

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

You think he would have given you a chance to explain and another chance after 10 years of service. He was probably looking for a reason to let anyone go because of the economy, he's already cut everyones pay and hours.

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

2
So the real title for this thread is

"My employers, who are already overstaffed, sacked me because I set up in competition with them, without informing them, and tried to get another employee to help me".

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it though does it?

I agree you haven't really done anything outrageously bad, yet, but boy have you painted a target on your back with your intentions.



 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

In the US, that's all it takes; it's called "conspiracy to commit," since he did discuss this matter with someone else.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Your mistake is not being upfront with your employer (although he would have likely said no if you've asked for permission early on). I bet your co-worker bounced your offer back to the boss to get his blessings and that's how the boss found out about your side gig. I'm on the boss' side due to potential liability risks.

I ran across and competed on 2 instances with moonlighters and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Most of the time, they low ball their fees because it's not their primary source of income. The only thing that kept me from calling their bosses is my belief in karma.

wagnes, good luck on your job search. If you decide to be a freelancer in the time being, you'll find out what I'm talking about.     

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

In tough times, letting a co worker in on your work was like giving him a get out of jail free card.
When downsizing is imminent a lot of guys would give their eye teeth to get something on their co-workers that means the co-worker gets the bullet and not them.
But, I note you haven't said right out that your co-worker shopped you and it may be your boss learned some other way?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

"I ran across and competed on 2 instances with moonlighters and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Most of the time, they low ball their fees because it's not their primary source of income. The only thing that kept me from calling their bosses is my belief in karma."

RacingAZ, every now and then karma needs a little help to get the ball rolling.

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Yagonyonok,

There's an old saying: "If you go looking for trouble, you will find it."

If you find that a person has violated the state ethical guidelines, then report them to the state board, not to their boss.

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

I never meant that they should go squealing to their bosses.  Merely that if nobody ever does anything about such practices, besides waiting for karma to level the playing field it may never happen.  If we aren't willing to take the appropriate action to rectify a situation, then we shouldn't complain about it.  

In RacingAZ's case it may have been as simple as letting the other guys know that they are devaluing their services by cutting their rates so low.  In other cases where there are state code issues then the state board is the place.

I guess the karma thing is a trigger for me.  I've seen to many people sit back and get screwed over while waiting for karma, rather than being proactive.
 

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

I'm on the side of karma here, while you can go and report this person to there boss or whom ever you please. What will happen next.
a) they get fired and become permanent moonlighter, that will compete against for other jobs.
b) they see fit to get even with you, by bad mouthing you to everyone in the state.
c) the boss already knows and decides to complain to your boss.
I could go on, at the end of the day a moonlighter or a single man operation is going to be able to charge less, service is the important part. If they drop their fee's and don't provide professional service, then you can take action, or as i would prefer inform the person whom engaged the engineer and was unhappy with the service of the possible avenues for complaint.  

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

A single qualified man using only the resources he is entitled to use for that purpose is fair competition. It is an essential part of the free enterprise system.

A moonlighter may well be using someone elses resources for free without their consent. That is not fair competition.  

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

I am a hippy at heart sometimes and always like to think people that are registered by there board with a code of ethics follow these and would use there own resources in this situation. I also like to think there is more good than bad in the world, It helps me sleep at night.

Ron's the bigcheese, pats the Publican. I take it pat that you punked Ron (these are Ron's words)?

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

I'm talking about bad karma happening to me for snitching on them. Whatever bad karma they get, I don't really care and I'm not going to waste my time trying to gather evidence for the State board. You actually need solid evidence to submit to the board to file a complaint. Without any evidence and just my word would look like sour graping.

Also, isn't talking to the other guys about their rates considered collusion?

I actually filed a complaint on another PE running a plan stamping operations. The evidence fell into my lap as it was in the e-mail sent to me and forwarded it to the board. This one was easy as I didn't have to do any digging around.    

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Pat-

I assume that you only mean it's not fair competition IF he's using resources other than his own. Correct? Because I can't understand why it's not fair competition just because one guy has a day job, and one guy doesn't.

V

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Defining "fair" is a difficult thing to do under any circumstance.  

However, if one had a day job, which allowed him to lowball with impunity, is that considered "fair" or "just business?"
 

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

If he uses the computer, software or reference books belonging to his day job company, that is unethical. If he uses his own - good business.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Professional Associations (such as the several in which I am a member) occasionally publish guidelines on the value of professional services.  For the good of the dignity of the engineering profession, I believe we should each do our part to not throw such guidelines out the window when we set our rates.  To do otherwise would suggest that you really don't care about your profession; one might construe that to mean you are unprofessional.

Apart from that, if, on your own, you can do something faster and cheaper than your new-found competition and fully satisfy the law and the Client, that's just fair and good business.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

One more opinion:

Your employer doesn't own you.  If your work doesn't compete with them, you don't use your employer's resource, and you haven't promised them differently, you should be free to do as you wish when you're not being paid by them.

I'd say they don't own your friend either.  If your suggestion to him didn't include an inducement to work on company time or compete with your employer, I still see no problem.


 

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

In RacingAZ's case it may have been as simple as letting the other guys know that they are devaluing their services by cutting their rates so low.
That, my good fellow, is what they call "price fixing."  There's at least one bookfull of regulations in the US to criminalize such discussions.
 

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

vc66

I just reread my post. I think it says exactly what I mean.

He does not need to actually own the resources he uses, but he must have the permission of the owner to use them for that purpose or they may be rented or they may be legitimate free copies or whatever.

I thought

Quote:

using only the resources he is entitled to use for that purpose

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Fired for Trying to work on off Day.

Pat-

Must learn to read good.

Sorry about that. Your post was quite clear the second time it rolled around my brain.

V

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