Working with industrial designers
Working with industrial designers
(OP)
Not sure this is the best forum but seems as good as any and a quick search didn't change my mind.
I had a phone call with an Industrial Designer earlier that we've used a few times previously who ranted about the way we have used their services.
Basically we'll give them the basic product information/envelope etc. and have them come up with some schemes for packaging it to be more aesthetically pleasing and in some cases meet certain ergonomics requirements etc. In one or two cases we've then actually had them do some of the detail design of the covers etc, in other cases we've used their concepts as a starting point and then fleshed the rest out our selves because with the time schedules we usually have we to go to them before everything is fleshed out so changes occur etc.
It seems this latter approach is highly offensive to him. It was like we were somehow undermining his artistic integrity or something. Apparently we should have gone back to him for every little change and paid him the tens of thousands of dollars it would cost without batting an eye lid. Now this guy has done the design of some high profile items which if I said the name you'd all recognize but still. He also started going on about how he was trained in this type of thing or something and how many industrial designers wouldn't' put up with it and wouldn't allow their designs to be changed.
Our products are low volume, though fairly high price. However, 50-100k spread over say a couple of hundred units is still a sizeable chunk.
I can kind of understand that it may be frustrating coming up with something you think is really good then having it butchered by what you perceive as 'amateurs' but most of the 'butchery' is for a good reason driven by some design requirement or another. These products are scientific/industrial metrology instruments not consumer goods so while aesthetics are important they aren't the be all and end all, at least in my opinion.
So is this typical of how industrial designers work, or is our guy a prema donna? Are any industrial designers out there willing to just provide basic concepts for companies to then build on, or do you insist on controlling every little detail?
I had a phone call with an Industrial Designer earlier that we've used a few times previously who ranted about the way we have used their services.
Basically we'll give them the basic product information/envelope etc. and have them come up with some schemes for packaging it to be more aesthetically pleasing and in some cases meet certain ergonomics requirements etc. In one or two cases we've then actually had them do some of the detail design of the covers etc, in other cases we've used their concepts as a starting point and then fleshed the rest out our selves because with the time schedules we usually have we to go to them before everything is fleshed out so changes occur etc.
It seems this latter approach is highly offensive to him. It was like we were somehow undermining his artistic integrity or something. Apparently we should have gone back to him for every little change and paid him the tens of thousands of dollars it would cost without batting an eye lid. Now this guy has done the design of some high profile items which if I said the name you'd all recognize but still. He also started going on about how he was trained in this type of thing or something and how many industrial designers wouldn't' put up with it and wouldn't allow their designs to be changed.
Our products are low volume, though fairly high price. However, 50-100k spread over say a couple of hundred units is still a sizeable chunk.
I can kind of understand that it may be frustrating coming up with something you think is really good then having it butchered by what you perceive as 'amateurs' but most of the 'butchery' is for a good reason driven by some design requirement or another. These products are scientific/industrial metrology instruments not consumer goods so while aesthetics are important they aren't the be all and end all, at least in my opinion.
So is this typical of how industrial designers work, or is our guy a prema donna? Are any industrial designers out there willing to just provide basic concepts for companies to then build on, or do you insist on controlling every little detail?
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RE: Working with industrial designers
Your IDer needs to be reminded of the nature of the client-supplier relationship. You bought something, now it's yours. Your ID needs a firmer grip on that concept. He can always not take money for not doing things he would rather not see done.
IDs not hard to find. They usually introduce themselves by asking if you want fries with you sandwich.
RE: Working with industrial designers
RE: Working with industrial designers
One, a contractor, got paid for making a proposal to our requirements, and supplying a rendering. I don't think he even made the paper protoype, but he got paid, and I didn't hear anything negative from him.
Much later, I worked for a much better outfit that had two IDs on staff. I worked with each of them at different times. Both clearly understood their job, and mine, and we got on just fine.
Both of them stayed engaged with my projects, and helped evolve the product's skin while adjusting it because of technical constraints. That participation wouldn't be available to a contract ID, but it took relatively little time anyway. It shouldn't be an issue to a professional, and it clearly wasn't.
Both of them threw a huge fit when an idiot manager type unintentionally denigrated the woman's education and professionalism with an offhand remark, before a large audience, about her 'pretty pictures' or something like that. She was _really_ torqued, both about the insult and the absence of any sort of apology.
I submit that there exists the possibility of the ID having been upset by some idiot manager. There also exists the possibility that he is a prima donna. As has been pointed out, there is a generous supply of ID types available.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Working with industrial designers
Not to impose constraints on the technical design.
You need to find a better industrial designer.
RE: Working with industrial designers
Having said all that, once you have paid for it what you choose to do with it is up to you. I could go out and buy the most expensive car in the world and angle grind the back seats out to put a pig in there if I wanted.
At the end of the day you are paying the money so you chose how much of the design is done by the ID and how much you choose to change, if they do not like it they can always stop taking your money.
RE: Working with industrial designers
Also I personally know a few here in Sydney who are first class and would respect the clients rights to do as they please with what they paid for.
My only qualifier would be that if you change someones design, you should also remove anything crediting them with the work, unless they expressly say they are still happy to have their name on it.
If credit for the work is part of the original contract, then you certainly need to consult about any changes
Regards
Pat
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RE: Working with industrial designers
There have been a few cases where I work of the client making changes to work generated by colleagues after data has been released. While this is slightly frustrating, there is nothing that can be done about it unless stated in a contract that may or may not have been drawn up. Just like ajak describes, IF no agreement has been made and the client pays for released CAD data then they can technically do whatever they want with it. BUT..What's the point of paying all that money when you then go ahead and bodge it around, the Industrial Designer I'm sure will not just be making a fuss about nothing. If the project wasn't behind schedule and everything was there with which the Industrial designer could work with then there wouldn't be a problem.
I am a bit confused by this comment Kenat:
"Are any industrial designers out there willing to just provide basic concepts for companies to then build on, or do you insist on controlling every little detail?"
Yes....but if they are basic why do you need to hunt down high profile designers to do them?
I would love to see before and after examples of the product in question but obviously this isn't going to be possible.
RE: Working with industrial designers
Pat has a good point. Often it's not the changes, but the attribution that matters.
I've been on this ride before. A colleague took over a project from me and proceeded to booger it up. Of course, he left my name on it so everyone was coming to me with the WTFs that were his doing. I'll take credit for my own mistakes, but...
RE: Working with industrial designers
Its very difficult not to be insulted under those conditions. It's even worse when you need the work. And the effects of bad clients are cummulative. So even if you have been professional in your dealings with your designer, he may be a little extra sensitive.
As long as you are confident that you have treated you designer with respect, then maybe it's time to consider a change.
I'm not saying this is necessarily what you are doing KENAT. Just bear in mind that this is most likely what his experience has been.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: Working with industrial designers
On the changing the data thing, part of the issue is we really just want the basic concept or ideas to then flesh out based on function and as things develop. Essentially a few hand sketches of ideas and some explanation from an ID point of view of specific features etc. We explicitly aren't asking for full blown 3D CAD models. He essentially refuses to just supply basic concepts for us to develop and is virtually demanding to do all the design.
The unit I'm working on has a very tight budget so it's really being driven by manufacturing capability and we're trying to squeeze the best aesthetics out of it. We've already come up with a basic concept based on function and manufacturing and really all we want is him to give us some guidelines on a few design details. Marketing wants to give him a bit more freedom,but that translates to more cost & time which I don't think we have, and even they only want some 2D images to compare.
I'll be honest, based on my phone call yesterday and the email I just got from him (where he decided to put a rant on a workstation he'd put in a proposal for, we'd decided not to go with it in part because it looked crap from what I recal) I'd like to drop him, but I doubt some others will agree. Plus with all this back and forth we've lost over a week of what was meant to take only a couple of weeks in the schedule and things are getting tight.
I don't have too much trouble believing that previous folks here that have worked with him may have upset him, they've sure up set me. Still if he doesn't want to work with us I wish he'd just say it.
At the end of the day things are tight where I'm at, pay has been cut, mandatory vacation (without pay if you don't have it on the books) massive lay-offs (something like 40% since I started there) and various other things that don't improve moral. Then I've got this guy bidding at nearly $200 an hour and throwing his toys over us not wanting to pay him a 10's of thousands of $ to give us solid gold when we'd be happy with a lump of lead. Doesn't sit well wit me.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Working with industrial designers
If what you are offering this guy is not his gig, then he needs to learn how to bow out gracefully. He needs to say call me when you have a firm concept and a better budget for your product. Hey, if he doesn't want to provide rough sketches for $200/hr, I'll do it for $125. I can whip out a free hand sketch pretty quickly.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: Working with industrial designers
RE: Working with industrial designers
Having seen a couple of your simple sketches Cass I'd be happy to consider it but while I'll probably get the blame if it all goes wrong I don't have much say.
I think initially we weren't going to get external ID, we were going to do it ourselves based on what we'd learned from the last few go-rounds. I guess the VP brought it up at the last design review and now it's getting out of hand.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Working with industrial designers
A healthy ID-engineering relation takes constant care. Still, it can be healthy and rewarding and even constructive. Engineers should be used to being misunderstood and stereotyped. Don't pass that along by doing the same to your IDs.
Typical ID-engineer relationships seem based on resentment over the respect that both parties believe they are not going to get. Engineers need to get a grip on the fact that engineers make devices, but companies sell products. IDs (and many engineers) need to learn to let go of their work and allow the person paying for the work to take ownership.
RE: Working with industrial designers
Consultants sometimes can be thorn in the side of company designers. It can border on downright insulting.
RE: Working with industrial designers
Regards
Pat
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RE: Working with industrial designers
RE: Working with industrial designers
I once had a boss that whenever you wrote a letter, he would make small changes to wording or grammar or layout.
If you made the changes and took the next draft to him a week or two later, he made new changes, sometimes reinstating some or even all of your original work.
He was not a bad guy and he did not realise that was what he was doing. I think it helped him feel involved and to reinforce he was in charge. I think this was to reinforce to himself more than to anyone else.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Working with industrial designers
I really think the scheme we have is pretty good, however the VP asked if it had been ID'd at the last design review and when the answer given was no then the VP said to do it.
The other engineerng staff involved & I just really want some input on size and location of a few aspects (such as logo's, accent color stripes etc.) from someone with a more artistic bent than us. The Marketing lead wants to give them a bit more freedom but still only wants 2D concepts, at least at this stage.
Oh well, I'll see what my colleagues have to say today.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Working with industrial designers
My boss takes my great ideas, and effs them up all the time! I don't get paid any more for it.
KENAT--Being at the same company as you, I've learned a few things. Nothing makes sense. People will pay for complete crap. Smile and wave.
Good luck, man.
V
RE: Working with industrial designers
As other have said there are many small ID firms that are very flexible about what they deliver.
Some manufacturers are bringing design in house to make themselves stand out from the guys in China that just make parts. Themofab is one example. Others will have an ID that they work with as a consultant. It is more popular in plastic parts than other things that are less cosmetic. Sometimes their basic service will be used to draw up sketch that win the job. Other times they will be hired to do all the deigns and manufacturing. One of the nice things about them is that you have assurances the parts can be made.
Yours is a tough market to design for. For years the expectation was "as long as it isn't ugly". Now it has to look like it is expensive.
RE: Working with industrial designers
If we'd had more time and I'd had more say in the matter I'd probably have looked elsewhere but I'm sure we'll muddle through with this guy. He did have quite a change of tune in later correspondence so it may work out OK.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Working with industrial designers
I frequently watch our ID partner send work out to be butchered by their client's engineering staff. I've been responsible for fixing their mistakes on more than one occasion when their client's VP of marketing wouldn't let it out the door. I hate to say it, but I can easily picture one of their engineering managers writing your email verbatim.
Your guy may or may not be a prima donna (there are plenty of them out there), but if you're making significant form changes without getting some ID input, then you're probably just flushing all the money your company paid them down the toilet. The distance between "award winning design" and "garbage" is much shorter than most engineers think.
Good product design requires cooperation between design and engineering. Throwing it over the wall doesn't work.
RE: Working with industrial designers
The scope has changed somewhat since I was given the task, the requirement to get external ID being the most obvious. I didn't make the original decision not to have external ID done, just like I didn't make the decision to now get it done.
Fundamentally in a lot of areas, not just this one of ID, our management seem to want to play like they're a big company with high volume when really they're a medium one with a range of low volume products. As such the budget required to do in depth ID going back and forth for each significant change/iteration isn't there.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Working with industrial designers
If that's true, then your ire is misdirected. It's not the ID firm's fault that your company doesn't know how to integrate design into it's process. It's your management's. Your company needs to get a project manager that understands the importance of design and how to manage it.
If you want to put out well designed products then you, your management and your ID firm need to understand how to work together. I don't know what kind of products you make, but $50-100k is a pretty large budget for most ID firms. There should be plenty of money to involve ID for the whole process if you spend it wisely.
I strongly suspect that the reason the ID firm doesn't want to give you sketches is because they fully expect you to continue the butchering. They probably feel that the only way they can ensure the final design reflects the design intent is to do it themselves.
RE: Working with industrial designers
HA! You don't know who we work for!
V
RE: Working with industrial designers
Hg
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RE: Working with industrial designers
This is the point of this post.
So having been on the receiving end of the ID's rant I feel perfectly entitled to a bit of ire in the ID's direction. I have plenty or ire left over for management. Though of course being a proffesional I don't let it show, honest.
As to the 50-100k, that's ball park what the Industrial Designer wanted for typical effort, it's an order of magnitude or so larger than what we typically have available/can afford. Hence we'd tried to limit our expectations to match the budget.
If the ID doesn't want to do what he's being asked to do, and there isn't budget to do what he wants to do, shouldn't he just refuse to quote? Rather than ranting to a prospective customer on the phone?
I don't do much external customer facing these days but when I did I don't remember ranting to them being considered appropriate.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Working with industrial designers
Hg
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RE: Working with industrial designers
1) You engage the ID firm to develop the product design.
2) ID firm works through their process with the preliminary specs that you gave them.
3) ID firm delivers some 3D models of the design.
4) Technical concerns force the product spec to change.
5) VP notices that the product doesn't look like the original design and asks for it to be "ID'd".
6) You send the current design to the firm and ask for some limited help to get things back on track.
7) ID guy sees what you've done to his baby and chews you out.
I'm guessing that he feels he needs to take over the activity if the design intent is going to be preserved. If your VP is telling you to get ID input after reviewing the product, then he's probably right.
That doesn't excuse the "rant", but I understand the impulse to do it. To him it sounds like your asking for a band-aid for your severed arm.
RE: Working with industrial designers
bvanhiel, your time line is not correct.
On one previous project he got upset by it was more like:
1) You engage the ID firm to develop the product design.
2) ID firm works through their process with the preliminary specs that you gave them.
3) ID firm delivers some 3D models of the design using up the entire ID budget.
4) Technical concerns force the product spec to change.
5) Changes are made internally and VP and everyone else is happy with it, Sales & Marketing love it and it sells well (given the economy).
6) ID guy sees what "you've done" to his baby and chews you out.
On another previous project that really upset him it was more like:
1) You engage the ID firm to develop the product design.
2) ID firm works through their process with the preliminary specs that you gave them.
3) ID firm delivers some 3D models of the design along with a bid to finish design & source it.
4) General Consensus is that the design is ugly, not user friendly etc. and ridiculously expensive.
5) ID's design is essentially thrown away and a manager and an intern develop an alternate design, which is much more aesthetically pleasing & user friendly (though not without other issues).
6) Everyone else is happy with it, Sales & Marketing love it and it sells well (given the economy).
7) ID guy sees what "you've done" to his baby and chews you out.
At some point in history:
1) Then VP engages the ID firm to develop a brand for the company including ID of all products.
2) VP leaves the company.
3) Impetus of project dies but the ID gets some work, including that mentioned above.
On my project it went more like:
1) An intern with a notable lack of drive is engaged to develop the product design on the cheap with minimal, but conflicting, oversight from project lead engineer and another manager.
2) I'm asked to get involved to take over when the intern leaves and take it through to production.
3) I try to compile a preliminary spec but it's like pulling teeth, somehow I coerce the intern into getting the basic concept to a vaguely reasonable condition and finding some potential vendors.
4) Design Review /phase gate meeting is held and VP asks if product has been "ID'd".
5) Marketing lead says it will be ID'd.
6) You send the current design & preliminary spec to the firm with a SOW asking for some limited aesthetic input, making it clear you only want 2D concepts not fully detailed designs.
7) ID guy chews you out.
So there is history with my company and this ID, which may explain some of the attitude, however I'm not sure it excuses it.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Working with industrial designers
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Working with industrial designers
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Working with industrial designers
I agree. Once is unprofessional, but understandable. 3+ times is pathological.
KENAT,
It sounds like your company needs new ID help both externally and internally. You need ID that is engaged with your engineering to get any real value out of it. that takes a firm that is willing to work within your budget and engineers/management that recognize the value it brings.
Good luck.
RE: Working with industrial designers
All you need is the ear of a VP who trusts you.
... Okay, that's a lot, I admit.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Working with industrial designers
bvanhiel, this ID thing is minor compared to some stuff. I was just trying to work out if I was being unreasonable in expecting the vendor to do more or less what I asked of him. I thought maybe ID's didn't work that way, kind of like some artists.
We really don't have the money to get the level of integration with ID you seem to be implying. I only just got my pay restored, I'm not about to give it up just to get a few more hours of this guys time.
Ear of a VP - good one Mike.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Working with industrial designers
When you get one you can hang it around your neck as a warning to other VP's. :)
You can liken ID guys to artists, but the reaction your getting is probably the same one you'd get out of an engineer that saw his work misapplied.
ID doesn't have to be expensive, but it does need to keep some level of involvement in the process. Doing all of the ID work up front only works if engineering can execute without changing the design. That usually only happens if the product is just a facelift of an existing machine.
RE: Working with industrial designers
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Working with industrial designers
It's difficult to properly interpret situation, but probably both of you are guilty, unequally so, of poor or unclear communication. This is often true between company and consultant for hire, not just industrial designers. Apologies if I'm assuming too much from only your several paragraphs here.
In your comments I read that all you were asking for were deliverables, but he has an intellectual task to do. I just need a sketch. I have to understand and solve numerous complex 3d spatial relationships to create a coherent design, which I'll show you in a 2d sketch. But we just want a couple of sketches where a logo goes.
He's ostensibly a trained experienced professional, you're sort of not treating him that way. And the result, probably he feared, as you itemize in your list: a bad design. It reflects on his reputation. Indeed maybe he did a bad job, maybe he was given bad inputs. And maybe he sees it hapenning agian.
That's a lot of maybe's, but it's happened to me as well, and it's a bad feeling. People handle it differently.
Certainly the prima donna attitude has no place in high value added scientific instrumentation product design. Fashion design, probably.
I face this same situation monthly. One client, a global machinery manufacturer, commissions me several times per year for multi-product design planning, branding and some engineering. Maybe once a year I get a crappy photo of machine on skid with a "We used your logo idea", everything else ignored. They asked, I did the job, they paid, that's good enough. I wish they implemented more. Incremental improvement. It has to be good enough.
Professional pride is acceptable, but not excessively so, as your industrial designer seems to be showing.
If you gave him a statement of work, why is he coming with deliverables and a request for more fees? Thoroughly unprofessional. OK if indeed you are requesting new work, otherwise get someone who is as capable of project managment as industrial design.
It can be not too exciting if you are using him on a piece meal basis, as you sort of describe. Darting in and out of project as you integrate new component, then do it agin 3 months later. If he's so experienced, that should be common practice and knows how to deal with it. But, creatively speaking, it's disheartening to only be able to contribute piece meal when the raison d'etre of the industrial design profession is to develop coherent solution.
To your original question, yes some industrial designers work like this. So do some engineers, marketing, executives. In all cases, not successfully, often followed by a clean up person. A generalization, it's often the industrial designer's who went immediately or too soon into consulting, not gaining enough understanding of myriad business processes and scenarios different at each company. A bit of the school design studio individualistic idealism.
Also, this type of industrial design can be very frustrating. High value added scientific instrumentation have very complicated electro-mechanical-chemical-optical interfaces, have unusual cost drivers, shifting technical priorities, and just about always the industrial design function and / or deliverables becomes partially corrupted at the altar of cost. As always, coherence, to achieve simplicity can be very difficult.
And then some engineer comes along and says but we just need a sketch...
RE: Working with industrial designers
On the 'just the sketch' issue. The thing that makes me have trouble believing this is such an issue is that in another case we got effectively just that.
This was for a 'box of electronics' the packaging and detail design of which was completely outsourced to an electronics packaging design house. One of the first things they did were provide several sketches of different concepts for the 'box' that their ID had done. In their case once we told them which we liked, or I think it may have been aspects of a couple, they went away and finalized the design.
This is what we wanted, just some sketches of ideas for us to then finalize the design. We weren't expecting fully defined designs with all aspects of functionality fully defined etc. Also, we already had a fairly well developed concept that captured most of the critical functionality and space envelope aspects.
We had a very limited budget (even if doing external ID had been thought of earlier it wouldn't have been much more I suspect) so as I've said before getting them fully involved in an iterative approach/integrated development just wasn't feasible financially.
Some of my posts may have been unclear as you've mentioned a few things in your post that don't follow what happened, but perhaps that's more evidence of my poor communication.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?