Use of PE after name
Use of PE after name
(OP)
I am a registered professional engineer in a handful of states. Recently our office came across some articles that reference ethical issues surrounding the use of P.E. after the engineer's name. The idea is that the use of these initials can be misconstrued as registration in a state that an engineer is not licensed in.
For example, John Doe P.E., registered only in Maryland, gives his business card to a potential client in West Virginia. Clearly, soliciting work by falsely claiming that you are registered in WV is unethical; however, what if John Doe's business card has a MD address and John's office has engineers who are registered in WV.
Additionally, is it unethical to use P.E. on correspondence (letters, emails, etc.) for a project in a state in which the engineer is not registered? This would apply in the common case of a project manager who does the bulk of the design and contract administration work on a project but does not stamp the contract documents. Most of the correspondence will be written and signed by the project manager and will likely not require a seal and signature. This leads to a situation where the project manager will be placing their name and P.E. on correspondence in relation to a project in a state in which they are not registered. The PM at that point is not claiming to be registered in the state, but is a licensed professional in the state in which their design office is located and in the state shown on the letter head (or email).
We have read articles that suggest listing states of licensure after the name of the engineer as a way to clearly define licensure and avoid a misunderstanding. However, providing a list of states can also be detrimental to an engineering firm. The firm's clients may see states that are not listed and no longer feel comfortable using a particular engineer at that firm. However, not all engineers at one firm need to be registered in all states where they practice engineering. Not to mention, for some engineers a list of states would not fit on a business card.
I would appreciate any feedback on this issue.
Additional reading on this attached.
For example, John Doe P.E., registered only in Maryland, gives his business card to a potential client in West Virginia. Clearly, soliciting work by falsely claiming that you are registered in WV is unethical; however, what if John Doe's business card has a MD address and John's office has engineers who are registered in WV.
Additionally, is it unethical to use P.E. on correspondence (letters, emails, etc.) for a project in a state in which the engineer is not registered? This would apply in the common case of a project manager who does the bulk of the design and contract administration work on a project but does not stamp the contract documents. Most of the correspondence will be written and signed by the project manager and will likely not require a seal and signature. This leads to a situation where the project manager will be placing their name and P.E. on correspondence in relation to a project in a state in which they are not registered. The PM at that point is not claiming to be registered in the state, but is a licensed professional in the state in which their design office is located and in the state shown on the letter head (or email).
We have read articles that suggest listing states of licensure after the name of the engineer as a way to clearly define licensure and avoid a misunderstanding. However, providing a list of states can also be detrimental to an engineering firm. The firm's clients may see states that are not listed and no longer feel comfortable using a particular engineer at that firm. However, not all engineers at one firm need to be registered in all states where they practice engineering. Not to mention, for some engineers a list of states would not fit on a business card.
I would appreciate any feedback on this issue.
Additional reading on this attached.





RE: Use of PE after name
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Use of PE after name
When I give someone in Wyoming (where I'm not licensed) my card with "David A Simpson, P.E.", I'm saying to them that I am licensed somewhere. A BUSINESS CARD IS NOT A CONTRACT. If they see the card and want to hire me as a to do something in Wyoming that requires a P.E. then if I accept the job I am possibly violating some regulation, but not certainly so. EPA has a regulation called Spill Prevention, Countermeasures, and Control (SPCC) that requires certification by a P.E. Recently one of my clients hired a P.E. licensed in Colorado to do an SPCC plan in New Mexico. My client's District Manager in New Mexico was uncomfortable with that and called the EPA. The answer he got was that the plan must be stamped by someone with a P.E. from some state. Their argument was that since there is no universal licensing, if someone has a license from any state, the EPA (according to one guy in one EPA district, this doesn't seem to be EPA policy) has to accept it.
David
RE: Use of PE after name
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Use of PE after name
One could argue that a business card is an "offer to practice," and as such, would be illegal in California, if not registered therein, qv. California PE Act para. 6730.
TTFN
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RE: Use of PE after name
RE: Use of PE after name
Life
42
RE: Use of PE after name
It is not an offer to provide engineering services. It is not a representation that you are licensed in any state other than "some" state.
State boards mostly have their heads up their a$$es. They persecute an engineer for not having the proper size seal or for not sealing every page of a bound set of drawings or any of a dozen other minutia of crap, while others are allowed to call themselves "engineers" without any intervention.
Services are services. Unless there is a code anomaly, or a soil issue unique to localities, there is very little reason to have individual state registrations or licensing. Licensing should be done on a national level, in concert with the examination....which is generally the same from state-to-state. The primary reason is the autonomy of individual state boards. They want to exist. The feel they need to exist. I agree; however, they need to police the profession, including those who
RE: Use of PE after name
Anyway....I agree; however, they need to police the profession, including those who usurp the term "engineer" by calling themselves such without having the license or qualifications....(OK you "exempt" guys...don't get your panties in a wad...I'm not talking to you). It just pisses me off every time I stop beside an air conditioning contractor at a stoplight and see on the side of his van "Air Engineers" or "Thermal Engineers" when they don't do any engineering and don't have engineers on staff (I know...'cause I check). They figure that "engineers" are smart guys...the public thinks so...so why not call ourselves "engineers"? Then the public will think we're smarter than the guy down the street who calls himself "air contractor".
I could stay on this soapbox all night....it would only increase my blood pressure.
Thanks, David.
RE: Use of PE after name
My goal is to satisfy myself that using PE after my name is not going to result in a fine from some state that I am not registered in. I personally don't think it is unethical, but I just wish it were crystal clear what does and does not constitute a violation of regulations.
The best I can tell, as long as I am licensed in the state that is listed on my business cards, letter head and emails I should be okay to use PE freely without listing the states I am registered in.
RE: Use of PE after name
RE: Use of PE after name
Otherwise, what's the point of the card? You don't want to disappoint people in states where you're not licensed, and you want to compete against others who do list the same state that you're qualified in, no?
Given two cards, one that clearly states licensing in the state I'm interested in, and one that doesn't, who would you think I would call first?
TTFN
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RE: Use of PE after name
I've only had confusion once that I know of. A client asked me to design an evaporation pond in a state where I'm not licensed. I looked at the regs and saw that the pond design had to be stamped. I explained the problem and declined the job. They are still my client and I still do work for them in that state.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
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"Life is nature's way of preserving meat" The Master on Dr. Who
RE: Use of PE after name
On the other hand, what if I am distributing my card on behalf of my company. If an engineer at my firm is in fact regsistered in state X there is no reason for me to put doubt in a potential clients mind by listing MY states of registration on my card (i.e, the lack of mention of state X on my card could loose our firm the project).
If I do end up acquiring my license in state X, I would then also need to add that state to my buisness cards... more money.
RE: Use of PE after name
RE: Use of PE after name
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If you're heading from MD to WV via PA don't worry if you give someone your business card you won't be persecuted (although it wasn't always this way here.)
As a side note, I'm also registered in NJ and I've read about disciplinary actions taken because the seal was the wrong size or the title block was incorrect. I agree with Ron: Persecuted.
RE: Use of PE after name
If seals can have arbitrary sizes and title blocks can be created willy-nilly, how is the customer to know that every document was signed and sealed by a legitimate authority?
TTFN
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RE: Use of PE after name
The title block thing is generally for a requirement of minimum information (name, address, license number, business authorization number, date).
RE: Use of PE after name
RE: Use of PE after name
David
RE: Use of PE after name
Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas
"All the world is a Spring"
All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.
RE: Use of PE after name
RE: Use of PE after name
RE: Use of PE after name
RE: Use of PE after name
RE: Use of PE after name
Some people like titles and certificates. Business cards include titles like senior engineer, senior staff engineer, senior principal engineer, etc. Such titles mean nothing. Some people buy additional certificates such as project management. The certificates lack the established national and state boards, examination and state enforcement rules. I am nots impressed by such certificates. Including P.E. after your name is enough for me. OK, list the states too.
RE: Use of PE after name
Except in Australia, every time I checked. Actually there is a bit of a trend that Masters aren't quite the mark of Cain that they used to be, but a PhD is a guarantee of a low average starting salary, for engineers.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Use of PE after name
Doesn't that depend on experience? In the states, someone with an MS or PhD looking for their first Engineering job is subject to finding a very limited market and probably low salary unless they stumble into the perfect niche. On the other hand, someone with 10 years Engineering experience seems to get paid a premium for an advanced degree. Is Oz really that much of a "horse of a different color"?
David
RE: Use of PE after name
If your bidding a job in a state where you don't have a PE read the rules or call the board. Most will allow you to a and issue a temporary conditional license ( for mere money).
RE: Use of PE after name
A lot of the advanced degree argument depends on the discipline and the job. In most practical applications, the Master's degree is somewhat of a peak, with the PhD sometimes being an impediment. In academia of course, the more the better.
If the job is in manufacturing, general consulting, or field applications, the PhD doesn't seem to help. In research or academia, where they get grants based on paper qualifications, the PhD is gold.
RE: Use of PE after name
Secondly, perpetual students probably get attracted to staying on at uni, and when they are finally forced out into the real world have to settle for what they can get, as they blink in the sunlight.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Use of PE after name
I beleive that the use of PE, SE is appropriate. This means that the engineer has not simply passed the civil or SE1 exam, but has minimally passed both the SE1 and SE2 exams... a much greater acheivement. The use of SE is a perk of passing both exams and satisfying the licensing requirements of a state that licenses by disipline, something to be proud of.
Naturally one can only use SE if they are registered in a state that liceneses SE's. Additionally, using just SE could be misleading since not all states recognize disiplines.
This is my take, but I could be convinced otherwise.
RE: Use of PE after name
RE: Use of PE after name
Maybe it was a poor example. I'm from WV and work with lots of PE's in MD, DC, PA, VA, etc. If someone has "PE" and "PA" on their business card, I don't presume and invite them to the family reunion.
RE: Use of PE after name
Outside of the civil structural discipline perhaps few would know the meaning of SE on a business card. Perhaps SE would be more notable if I were in the highway or mining business instead of the oil/gas/petrochemical business.
RE: Use of PE after name
Specifically, The state of Wyoming requires that the company the engineer works for hold a Certificate of Authorization from the board prior to offering any engineering services (there is also a mandatory requirement that at least one owner or principal must be a PE licensed in WY). In addition, WY restricts the use of key terms "professional engineer", "registered engineer", "licensed engineer", etc. If you even *verbally* use these terms in solicitations for work, you are violating their policy and are subject to discipline. Most likely you'll get a slap on the wrist for it, but any disciplinary action is then reported to the NCEES Enforcement Exchange and can lead to further disciplinary action in other participating states.
Each state also defines what "engineering" consists of via state statue(s). In Wyoming:
""Engineering practice" means professional service or work requiring engineering education, training and experience and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to the professional services or creative work as consultation, research investigation, teaching, evaluation, planning, surveying practice as defined in subparagraphs (vii)(D) and (E) of this subsection, design, location, development and review of construction for conformance with contract documents and design, in connection with any public or private utility, structure, building, machine, equipment, process, work or project. A person shall be deemed to be practicing or offering to practice engineering if he practices any branch of the profession of engineering, or by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or any other manner represents himself to be a professional engineer, or quotes fees for professional engineering services, or executes contracts or agreements for professional engineering services or holds himself out as able to perform or does perform any engineering service recognized by the board as engineering;"
Each state has its own set of rules. You can look them up as needed or simply clarify your title. Personally, I don't call myself a PE unless I have to.
RE: Use of PE after name
So Engineers are held to a higher standard than a Doctor or Lawyer? Please engineers stop the madness!
Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://civildevelopmentgroup.com
http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog
RE: Use of PE after name
RE: Use of PE after name
Many people say that as long as your buisness address is listed along with your name, then the use of PE is assumed to be for the state in which your buisness is located. Our firm happends to be in MD, a state I am registered in. So all coorespondence, and naturally our buisness cards, list the address of a state that I am registered in.
If I were NOT registered in MD I would need to say so. For example, if I were only registered in VA then I would need a statement under my name to clarify that I am not registered in MD. Something like this:
Nateb, PE
Not registered in MD
Alternatively, I guess you could list the states you ARE regiestered in, but this could get annoying if you are an engineer that adds new registrations frequently.
I happen to be registered in 5 other states (other than MD), but since they are not my place of buisness there is no need to list them all on my coorespondence and buisness cards. Seems to me the best thing to do is become registered in the state in which you work and include your buisness address on all coorespondence, documents and cards in which PE is used after your name.
RE: Use of PE after name
TTFN
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RE: Use of PE after name
I am always amazed that people ask for clarifications of State Statues/ Rules on here instead of calling the State Board itself. No offense to anyone on here but if I want to know an answer that could affect my career or get me disciplined I am asking the rule maker and requesting the answer in writing.
RE: Use of PE after name
As with most threads on this website, we are just looking for opinions on how practicing engineer's handle this issue, if at all.
RE: Use of PE after name
Just a kind reminder that US territories like Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands, also have licensing boards and are NCEES recognized.
Hidalgoe
RE: Use of PE after name
The other thing to keep in mind is that if you are practicing as an employee of a company, many states require the company to be registered with the license board or have a certificate of authority in that state/territory. A P.E. can be held responsible for the violation for sealing a document for use in a state in which his company is not properly registered.
Alan
"The engineer's first problem in any design situation is to discover what the problem really is." Unk.
RE: Use of PE after name
If I'm giving the card to someone solely for the purpose of contact information I'm not breaking any law. If I'm marketing my firm, maybe but probably not. There's no law against saying my firm is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
If I take on a project and have no intention of complying with state law, then I'm breaking the law. Most of my work is with public agancies in a particular state. When they issue an RFP one of the qualifications is that the project manager must be licensed in the state or have the ability to become licensed within six months. That's reasonable.
Sometimes a state board is unreasonable; sometimes not. Here's an example. 15 years ago I moved from state A to state B; shortly after I needed to obtain a license in state C. State C rejected my application because I wasn't registered in my home state. I called the board in state C, explained the situation about moving. They agreed to issue the license provided that I obtain a license in my home state within one year. They were reasonable.