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Calling it a day....but at what time?

Calling it a day....but at what time?

Calling it a day....but at what time?

(OP)
Just trying to gauge what others do here.

I often find myself finishing meetings/site visits and debating whether I should go back to the office or just call it a day. I live about 30 minutes journey from my office, my working hours are 8.30-5pm. If my journey back to the office will mean I get there at 4.00pm I usually just call it a day and head home.

If it's a Friday, well, thats another story...

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

My office is 70 ft from my bed.  Before I got a Blackberry I would check for e-mail every couple of hours between quitting time and bed time (I do a lot of international work and many of my clients are working while I'm sleeping).  Now with the Blackberry I quit when I quit (usually between 5-6) and then go to the office right before bed to check doors and put phones and mice on chargers.  I start at 5:00 am.  I work a lot of hours, but get paid for most of them and really like what I do.

You must not own the business if you work 8:30-5:00.  I try to bill more hours than that (and you can't bill the time it takes to update daily work records).

David

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Are you paid by someone else to work until 5:00?  If so, and you continually skimp because the work day is "almost" over, you're stealing.  I'm in the office by 6:30, take a 15 minute lunch (when I post here between bites), and leave by 3:30, charging 8.75 hours/day.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

nine, I know what you mean. I work 7:30 to 4, and I have a semi-regular meeting that starts at 2:00 and is 15 minutes from my house. When it gets out at 3, it doesn't make sense to get back to work at 3:45 and leave 15 minutes later.

Do you charge accruals, or make up the hour later in the week? Even if you're salaried, it seems like you should at least make sure it evens out in the end.

     "...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail." - Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

"I'm searching for the questions, so my answers will make sense." - Stephen Brust

 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Opportunities to leave early are usually outnumbered by days when I need to stay late by at least 2x.  This is compounded by a boss with no romantic or familial interests compelling him to get home on Fridays (or any other day)!

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

If you regularly contribute more than your contractual hours and are normally office bound, then if the occasion permits why not take advantage?

I used to and I can tell you the net winner was always my employer, even to the extent that I lost quite a few accrued holidays that I couldn't carry over from one year to the next but I can tell you, the odd occasion when I had such opportunities for an early end I grabbed at.

I know when I was working all week at the office and weekends out in Portugal on a trail site, and after a good few such weekends when I asked about time in lieu I was told "it goes with the territory".
Fine.
Me knocking off early from a site visit "goes with the territory".

However, I would never take sickies, never had my full holiday entitlement and was always "in credit" as it were. But, employers are like banks: you can spend your whole life in credit but go one day go in the red and you get a letter from the manager.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Admittedly, I hate my present day job; however, it's not right of anyone to not work the hours that they're paid to work.

The way I see it is--I don't get paid overtime for staying until 11:45PM the night before a big meeting that needs prototypes, so if I want to leave 15 to 20 minutes early every now and then, I shouldn't be reamed for it.  

V

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Options differ for different situations.  If you visit a plant and depart one hour before the end of your standard hour, and it is a one hour drive to the office, and you live next to the plant; consider one hour vacation and live with yourself.

Time sheet fraud is a crime, a reason for dismissal and prosecution.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

My typical week at the office is around 35-45hrs with an additional 10-20hrs working through a VPN in the evenings or on weekends.  I rarely enter below 45hrs in a week and am usually in the 50-60hr range.  So occasionally leaving early isn't a big deal.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

JLSeagull,

Some of my employers did quite a bit of "Timesheet Fraud". They made me juggle what I charged on various projects to make themselves look good to upper management/clients/banks. It was kind of like the US national debt, borrowing from future projects to make the current ones look good.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

(OP)
Don't get me wrong here, I would generally catch up on e-mails when I get back early. I would always work the minimum hours in my contract, so can't see anything wrong with avoiding the rush hour traffic.

My boss once told me that he expected me to demonstrate some 'professional flexibility' ever now and then when workloads increased so I guess it can swing both ways.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Dangerous assumption:

Quote:

My boss once told me that he expected me to demonstrate some 'professional flexibility' ever now and then when workloads increased so I guess it can swing both ways.
It is never managements intention that "flexibility" should mean convenience to the employee.
The best you can hope is that management are not aware of when "flexibility" is in your favour.
Flexibility really means that management expect that if you need to cancel your holiday and work 24/7 on a project that you will do so. It doesn't mean that if you need half a day to go to a funeral that they will be sympathetic (even if it is your own).

The guiding principle here is "what they don't know, can't hurt them."

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

JMW

I have often had the reverse situation where management was quite happy for me to give and take as they knew I gave more than I took and I always gave when they needed it.

One boss said, if a sales rep cant get a few hours of for personal business, he is to dumb to be representing us, however if his golf handicap gets toward low single figures, I want to know how much time he is spending practicing.

When staff work considerable overtime in one hit, all employers I ever had considered time in lieu as appropriate. Sometimes it was formalised, sometimes it was on a nudge udge wink wink basis.

I never ever disappeared on a Friday afternoon without first clearing it with my boss, even where it was an informal time in lieu arrangement.

Whenever a boss questioned me about flexibility on hours I always responded  "so you want me to work the official hours, OK". They always withdrew from the confrontation as they knew it meant no more free overtime.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Since I usually perform 45/50 hours a week and am paid for only 40, I don't bother much asking me this kind of question and leave earlier if needed

Cyril Guichard
Defense Program Manager
Belgium

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Uh huh, but when lay-off time comes, the guys who arrive at the appointed start time and leave at the appointed end time even if they don't accomplish much for the time spent, seem to get preference over those whose attitude is more about getting the work done rather than the hours spent, or which hours they are, and who may take a fag break or two, or appear not to have an obsessive regard for management rule books nor the required subservient attitude who, more productive or not, find they get to clear their desks.

Of course, for some of us, that is a fair enough trade off.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

I think it all depends if you are paid and claim overtime.

If not I would not expect an employee of mine to travel past their house drive for 30 minutes pop their head in and say I am off, however if you had to drive past the office on the way home I would expect that hours work. Sometimes it works for you sometimes against that seems sensible to me.

If you claim overtime then you should work every minute you are paid for and claim any extra time.

Basically neither the employer nor employee should "win" on every occasion.
 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

A boss of mine would often say that he was going to a meeting off site and instead of coming back to the office he'd be working from home. The argument being it was more efficient use of his time, and these days you could argue it offset his carbon footprint by not driving as much. I'd follow his example. His garden is immaculate by the way.  

corus

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

It's 8:50 pm EDT....I will be getting back to an analysis project in a few minutes.  I have similar hours to David (zdas04)...I get up early, I work whenever I need to work to serve my clients, and I've never been constrained by a "40-hour" work week.  I like what I do.  I have many repeat clients.  If I need to work 70 hours, I do it.  If I want to stop and do something else at 3:00 in the afternoon, I do it.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

That's all very well Ron, but don't you work for yourself?

Those of us employees on a very basic salary without paid overtime are unlikely to have the same attitude.

I'm with the 'give and take' brigade, just make sure you average at least your required hours.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

apsix...yes, I now work for myself; however, for over 20 years I worked for two engineering firms.  I had the same attitude there that I have in my business....I earned the ability to have a very flexible schedule, even when I had a "boss".  Granted, some firms are too insecure to allow that.  I understand that.  If the firm is too inflexible, maybe it's just not a good place to work.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Not everyone can be trusted to work responsibly and productively if they can set their own hours. So in many an office no one gets the freedom and letting one person have the freedom and others not leads to all sorts of other problems.

Then again, it is easier to measure hours (and contract for) worked than productivity.

I used to be rather cavalier about my hours. That is, with a journey to work that could take half an hour on a good day, usually took an hour and could some times take two or more, if I was late, so what. I would always be there long after I should be and work from home when I got back.

But. Others are religiously punctual. They see time kepping as the virtue, not what they do with the time they are at the office.
They resent people who make their own hours.

The brown nosers know just wen the boss arrives so they are there before him (by minutes) and they leave just after him.
They are alert to the arrival of their competitors and will use every opportunity to draw this to the boss's attention. Usually, they will say "Oh look, there's X. Overslept again." Not, "Traffic maust have been bad today for X to be arriving only now."

They spread dissent amongst others.

So, when you are legitimately away from the office and the opportunity to redress the balance a bit occurs, take it. Within reason.

  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Like a lot of you, if I'm at a meeting that ends at 3, I will often just go home instead of going back into the office for a short session.  

However, this 2 hour advantage to me is often weighed by hours in airports, sundays on the vpn, doing process runs and reports into late evenings.  As well, my blackberry is always on and I often answer emails in the evenings.  Given the flexibility of our system, the hours always end up with me doing much more than the prescribed 40 hours/week.  If you tie me to the 8-5 schedule, then you can not expect me to do weekend and evening work and answer emails on my time.  Quid pro quo.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?



JLSeagull, I'm not an expert on US legal system, but I'd say that timesheet fraud is not a "crime", it is breach of contract. In the worst case it could be an infraction, or the US equivalent term.

When your company asks you for unpaid overtime, does not pay for work-related education or asks you to do work that is not contemplated in your contract  it is the same situation, and not a lot of employees turns to scaremonging and accuses the company of "crime".
 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

When your work is paid for by the goverment, then timesheet fraud is a crime. The same may apply do work billed to other customers.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?



Yep, that is true in the case of the government jobs.

Not so sure about fraud in billed hours if you work for a company, because I understand you put your hours in your timesheet, and then your company bills them to the customer.

If you inflate your hours, then you are acting against your contract with your company.

I mean, legally there's nothing that binds you, as a worker, with your company's customer, unless you have signed it specifically. Am I wrong?

 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Whoever exaggerates the hours has committed fraud.

By definition, fraud is "theft by deception"

Lying about hours is deception.

Getting accepting pay as a result of that deception is theft.

That seems exceptionally straight forward to me.

Have I ever done it, yes

Have you ever done it, yes

It is expected and often overlooked to some extent and may be part of a give and take arrangement, yes

It may be part of a retaliation, or an evening of score, but that does not change what it is.  

Regards
Pat
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RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

We minions have swipe cards to record our hours, so I can tell within a minute whether I'm above or below my 7.5 Hr/Day monthly average.  However, there's no way the clockings can record if I'm adding value or adding coffee.
 

- Steve

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?



OK, Pat, you are talking from your ethical point of view.

Timesheet fraud (in non-public jobs), from a legal point of view, is not the same as theft, whatever our opinion might be.

As an example, I assume lying for you is ethically wrong, but you can lie in front of a jury to protect your innocence and it's not legally wrong (at least in Europe and the US)

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Quote (Neubaten):

but you can lie in front of a jury to protect your innocence and it's not legally wrong
Uhm, that's called perjury, and it's illegal for sure.

You are only allowed to lie about facts that will have no affect on the outcome of a case.  For example, if you were asked what type of pants you were wearing when you witnessed a murder, telling the jury you were in your underwear, however false, is not perjury.  If you want to protect your innocence, you'll need to take the Fifth.
 

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Quote (Neubaten):

No, in almost every civilized country it is not perjury if it has the finality of protecting your own innocence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_tenetur_se_detegere
Latin for "right to remain silent"... the right to remain silent is not the same as a right to lie under oath, and I fail to see how anyone can make that kind of connection.  The right to remain silent would be much closer to taking the Fifth.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Many contractors perform work for the government.  For government contracts, whistle blowers are protected and may be compensated for exposing false claims such as time sheet fraud.  Such employers likely establish their time reporting policies to be consistent with the governmental requirements.  Search the web for "whistle blower" or "qui tam" lawyer.  Some people earn their income by exposing time sheet fraud.

You may have the right to remain silent during an interrogation.  It is better to avoid such issues by properly reporting time charges - regardless of governmental contracts.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?



Yes, it is.  

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

It is what?
Is this turning into a Python sketch?

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

you guys oversea are really questionning about this matter. in my company, as long as I do -at minima- my 40 paid hours a week, no matter if it is 5 x 8 or any other arrangement. so I for sure can leave at 3 on monday, long as I put the 2 missing hours anywhere else in my week.

And even if I perform only 39 or less hours this week or another, I do so many unpaid overtime hours that my boss could and would not tell me anything.

Cyril Guichard
Defense Program Manager
Belgium

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Well said, Frenchcad - this is exactly the professional approach that we use with our staff.  If one of my guys wants to take friday afternoon off, it's his professional responsibility to make up the time accordingly.  Same as if one of us needs to take a construction inspector's call during sunday evening dinner.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Of course, by Pat's defination, if I fail to mark down my time on the weekend spent answering a 2 minute phone call from a customer, I would be committing "theft by deception".

Should I also include the time on the phone when calling in sick for the day?

Is it only "theft" if it's time I'm getting paid for? That would make it easier to understand, since ducking out without the 40 hours in the contract is time I'm technically getting paid for. However, it leaves employees with the bad deal, as any addtional time beyond 40 hours required is not "theft" by the company, unless theft can be applied to the employee's free time.

By that standard, marking down anytime not actually worked is "theft" and failing to mark down extra time is irrelevant. The issue of working non-normal hours is still ambiguous though. Am I paid my salary exclusively for the 9-5 or is it paid for the 40 hours, at whatever time those 40 hours might occur?

-- MechEng2005

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

MechEng2005

Read my definition again.

Fraud involves BOTH theft AND deception, NOT EITHER theft OR deception.

Neubaten

What have you been smoking or sniffing or whatever.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?


Oh, sorry, I'm OK now.

Timesheet fraud is not only theft by deception, assault on property and armed robbery (if you hold a pen sharp enough when signing your sheet).

It is, above it all, a serious crime. It is prosecuted and punished in a public execution by beheading.

I'm obviously confusing my own moral views on the subject with legality, but it doesn't matter since I scare people.  

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?




Pat, what I'm trying to say is that it is wrong to throw terms such as "theft", "robbery" or "crime", as several people mentioned above. If you commit timesheet fraud, legally you are only commiting breach of contract, which is different from crime.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself in the most straight forward fashion, and I chose the wrong example, but I swear you I haven't touched any substance ...so far!! :)

If 999 skips his last hour, he is not going to face criminal accusations, as someone implied. I was just trying to clarify this.  

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

If he is working on a project that is billed by the hour, his time driving back to the office can be charged to the client. If he goes home, and plays with his kid, it can not. If he goes home, sits back and reviews the work and closes his eyes and thinks about the project, it is - up to the first snore. If he charges his time to overhead, no problem. It is theft to charge the client for time not worked. (Driving to and from the client site should be chargable, unless the contract does not allow it.)

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

I would ask your boss what he expects you to do, on all our drawings it says "if in doubt –ask."
If I need to leave early by an hour, when that small thing called life gets in the way of work, then my boss will let me go. Then again, he knows that I arrive early by 30 minutes every single day, and have gone on site (and a cr*p one at that) for a week at 48 hours notice, and more than once.
 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

The legality becomes even trickier when liability comes into play.

If you get in a car accident driving from a jobsite to your house rather than from the jobsite to your office, how will the insurance company look on that?

Or if you fall off a ladder before your scheduled end time.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?



IRstuff, yes, the exception are government jobs.

Junior37c, what you say can also happen the other side, what if you have a stroke in your office after working hours? Or some part of a prototype hits you in the head while staying overtime for a last minute adjustment?
 

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

I was technically defining fraud.

Just because something is fraud, that does not mean it can be or will be prosecuted in the vast majority of cases.

I am told that the stealing of time outweighs all other theft in combined and is commited largly by people who:-
1) Do not consider it stealing.
2) Consider it justified.
3) have never stolen anything else in their life (well maybe a kiss in their youth).

Regards
Pat
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RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?



I agree with you on that, but I haven't ever know what is really losing time until I met a bad manager. A bad manager can turn long research & work hours into nothing in a second. I guess if you get serious you can consider that theft as well...


Btw, sometimes I think about the work time management proposed by Skinner in the novel "Walden 2" and I think he may be right. Has anyone here read it?

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

I had an employer several years ago who got into trouble with the labor department.  All of the engineers were salaried, but he wanted us to record when we arrived at work and when we left.  He reviewed our time sheets to make sure we were all working at least 40 hours per week.  Someone filed a complaint with the labor department, and they said if he didn't pay us by the hour he could not require us to record our hours worked.  It may have been different if we had written contracts stating a specific number of hours we were supposed to work, but we didn't have written contracts.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

There was debate on that at my last place in the UK.  I think it came down to the fact that for Engineering the key card access was meant to track you for Safety (fire drill role call) and potentially security reasons (Defence Co.) not for time keeping.  

However, we all knew the wage clerk, (or time police) did used to look through our records and bring it up with her boss etc if we looked short on hours.  The looks we used to get when they'd all que up waiting to log out at 4:30, waiting for the clock to tick over, and we'd sometimes just clock out at 4:28 or something crazy like that.

The hypocrisy of it, getting mad at us for clocking out 'early' as they stood there watching us, not working themselves whilst on the clock, was apparently lost on them.  We'd all more than made our 40 (at least on average) be it getting early, working through lunches, staying late, business travel etc.

Sorry, a bit off topic.

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RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Timeclock queues were a regular feature down on the unionized shop floor.  What was more blatant, was that the contract allowed for some number of minutes for cleanup, etc., but it seemed like they would finish up even earlier, and most of their "cleanup" time was spent in line at the timeclock.

TTFN

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RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

why not leave early on the days of the meeting and make up the time the next day?  As long as your time card says 40 hours, who says they have to be 8 hours every day.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Ir stuff,
Reminds me of a machine shop foreman who would see the time clock queue, walk down to the time clock, and say OK , the first six men clock out NOW !
B.E.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

"Timeclock queues were a regular feature down on the unionized shop floor.  What was more blatant, was that the contract allowed for some number of minutes for cleanup, etc., but it seemed like they would finish up even earlier, and most of their "cleanup" time was spent in line at the timeclock."

We had this problem at a factory that I worked at that wasn't unionized.  It got so bad that they made everyone stay in their department until the bell rang.  Then there were people that would literally run for the clock.  Never quite understood that one.

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Not an easy question to answer.  It depends upon your employment situation and corporate culture.

For myself,  I am a professional and as such a large part of my life evolves around my career. There are days when I knock off early, sure.  But there are days that I bring work home or I am at the office or job site well into the evening. What's to be gained after a gruelling meeting when you are spent, to return to work just to fill-in until quitting time? I believe that there should be some flexibility in this regard.  If you are a wage earner, perhaps your hours should reflect an early quitting time.   

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

"Then there were people that would literally run for the clock.  Never quite understood that one. "

That's easy.  Where that was, you were docked at the front gate for every minute you were late, but you got nothing for staying over.  The system motivates you to be low-side compliant.

TTFN

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RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

Just keep a current account of hours worked or not worked and you should be able to tell exactly what you should do.  If its still not clear for some reason, credit or debit the account, until it becomes clear.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

running for the clock...

I swiped in today at 9:29:55, 5 seconds under the wire.

- Steve

RE: Calling it a day....but at what time?

A 0.001 credit!  

I'd carry that one over just about as far as the coffee bar.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

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