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Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams
8

Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

(OP)
This is a recent article published in my state's recent SEA newsletter.  I'm posting this in response to the recent thread on questions regarding the SE exam changes coming via NCEES and thought it might help others out there who have questions regarding this topic.


Structural Engineering Exam being revised by NCEES

In April 2011, the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES) will be introducing a new 16 hour Structural PE Exam.  The exam will replace the current Structural I and Structural II exams which will be offered for the last time in October of 2010.

The new 16-hour exam is a result of recommendations to NCEES by a Structural Exam Task Force (SETF) which was appointed by NCEES and composed of structural engineers from various states.  Their purpose was to evaluate the Structural I and II examinations, analyze member board use of the examinations and recent performance, and consider the additional needs of those jurisdictions with issues of high-seismic activity.  

Currently, NCEES offers two 8-hour structural exams, and some licensing boards also require state-specific exams.  The SETF recommended to NCEES that these tests be combined into one 16-hour exam that would be accepted by all states including those with high seismic activity.  As a result, the NCEES adopted the motion to move forward with modernizing the format of the SE-I and SE-II examinations to a single structural engineering examination with two 8-hour components that will be put into use by April 2011.  

To determine the new exams content, NCEES sent out a Professional Activities and Knowledge's (PAKS) survey to state boards.  They asked them to have their structural engineers fill out the survey to determine the content needed for the exam.  According to Tim Miller, NCEES Director of Exam Services, "We've gone through a deliberate and rigorous process to develop the specifications, and the state boards that currently license structural engineers have been included in this process."

The new exam will be offered in two components on successive days.  The 8-hour Vertical Forces (Gravity/Other) and Incidental Lateral component is offered on Friday.  The 8-hour Lateral Forces (Wind/Earthquake) component is offered on Saturday.  The morning sessions will be multiple-choice questions covering a comprehensive range of structural engineering topics.  The afternoon sessions will be essay format and focus more closely on a single area of practice in structural engineering.  Examinees must choose either buildings or bridges and work the same topic area in both the Vertical Component (first day) and the Lateral component (second day).  

Since the exams are broken into two different 8-hour components, the exams may be taken and passed in different exam administrations.  However, to pass the exam, the examinee must pass both the Vertical and Lateral Components.  To date, there is no information available as to how long you have to pass both of the exam components.

The cost to take the exams is expected to be $400/book and scoring plus $100/administration for a total cost of $500/component.  Therefore, the total cost at this time to take the new exam is expected to be around $1,000.00 for both components.

With this in mind and knowing that the licensing exam will change in April 2011 to one 16-hour exam, all professional engineers practicing structural engineering should think about the future and act accordingly.
  
After October of 2010, the only option to become licensed as a Structural Engineer (S.E.) in many states will be to take and pass the new 16-hour exam offered by the NCEES.  Although the expected cost of the exam is slightly higher than the current SE-II exam, there may be additional benefits to taking the exam if you plan on trying to get reciprocity in states which currently have their own state run SE-III exams such as Washington.  

For example, Washington has decided to eliminate their state SE-III exam after October of 2011.  Therefore, if you wait to take and pass the new 16-hour structural exam, you will get reciprocity in that state without having to travel to take their state SE-III exam.  If you have not passed their state SE-III exam prior to that date, your only choice will be to take the new 16-hour exam.

Therefore, professional engineers who are practicing structural engineers should keep in mind the cost of the application fee, the process, and reciprocity in other states while evaluating their options for licensure as a Structural Engineer (S.E.)

 

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Ouch!!!  $1000 for the test?  I'm not eligible to take the SEI until October 2010, so I might as well wait and take the new test in April of 2011.  Is there any concerns of the initial test having bugs or being overly difficult before the bugs get worked out and/or it's properly "normalized" (for lack of a better word)?

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

6
(OP)
I'm sure any first time test may have some level of awkward questions/answers that don't always mesh - but I'm not familiar enough with NCEES's process of "testing the test".  It appears, though that they've been pretty thorough about getting all the US State boards involved early.

 

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I'm a little confused by the paragraphs on reciprocity.  Are they trying to say that there will be no reciprocity for SE's in the future unless you've passed the new exam?  Usually the way it's done is that reciprocity is a state specific decision and if you've passed any SE exam, whatever vintage, you can apply.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

(OP)
I spoke with the writer and at this point there is no set policies or laws in place in each state on this as it hasn't been adopted formally yet.  

But the implication is that if state A changes in the future from a PE doing structural to requiring an SE to do all the structural (like Illinois currently), then from that point on, the 16 hour exam would be required.  

How they handle grandfathering or equivalency in bringing the older PE's into an SE sphere is probably up for grabs, but the consensus I've heard is that to become "like Illinois" and require SE for ALL structural design a state would almost have to provide some sort of grandfathering/equivalency means of converting those with PE/SE-1 and/or SE-2 exams under their belt.

 

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

What if you have a license in your original state and try to apply to a state like Illinois after they require the 16 hour test.... but you fail (thinking positively).  What would that do to your license in your original state?

I agree, some sort of grandfathering is going to have to be required.

Very confusing.
 

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

What is the possiblity of someone being 'Grandfathered' in as a SE with taking just the SE1?  Or would it be the SE1 with X years experience?  I am starting to lean towards taking the Civil PE this October in leiu of the SE1 because of the new SE test format.  I would hate to skip out on a chance to be 'grandfathered' in with the SE1.  It seems as of now that taking the SE1 has no advatages over the Civil PE.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I am not against the new 16 hour SE exam, My point is NCEES could arrange things better for those people who already passed either SE1 or SE2, now that the new 16 hour SE exam is a combination of SE1 and SE2, then why not allowing those people who passed SE1 take only 2 afternoon session (which is supposedly to be SE2 format test) to make up an equivalent new 16 hour SE exam, and allowing those people who passed SE2 take only 2 morning session (which is supposedly to be SE1 format test) to make up an equivalent new 16 hour SE exam?

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Is there a list somewhere of which states currently require an SE and which require only (!!) a PE?

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I believe the states that require a SE are:

California, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, and Washington.

Joel Berg

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

How very timely.  I just got a letter in the mail from the state of Washington last night warning me about this very change.  Thanks for initiating / reviving the discussion JAE.

I love the idea of having a more uniform SE examination / licensing process.  However, this change is going to screw me pretty badly.  I took SEII in WA last fall with the intent of taking their SEIII next fall.  I was then going use the SEIII result to get both my California and Vancouver BC SE license by comity.  Now, the situation is far murkier.

I'm sure that, at this point, nobody knows the answers to the following questions.  I'm going to ask anyhow though, just in case:

1) Will California accept the NCEES SE exam in lieu of the Western States Seismic exam as they currently do for the WA SEIII exam?

2) Will Vancouver Canada accept the NCEES SE exam in lieu of the IStructE exam as they currently do for the WA SEIII exam?

Woe is me...

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

(OP)
jberg,

Nebraska does not require an SE.  They have a title act where you must pass the SE-1 and SE-2 to "call yourself a Structural Engineer".  But there is no practice act in place.  Utah has a title act as well I believe.

I believe Illinois and perhaps Hawaii have full blown SE practice acts (i.e. you must be an SE to do ANY structural engineering)

California has a PE/SE combo where only certain structures (tall buildings, schools, hospitals, etc. must have an SE)
I think Washington is like that too.

I have a spreadsheet that outlines all the different states and their policies.  I'll see if I can post it.

 

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I did not realize that some of those states do not require engineers involved in structural engineering to be licensed as SE's.

Thanks for the insight,

Joel Berg

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

JAE,

I, for one, would LOVE to see your spreadsheet.

KK

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

My goodness.  That is so very helpful.  Thanks JAE.  I found an Structuremag article on US licensing but it's not as thorough and only updated to 2005.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Great summary JAE!  I'm sure this will be very helpful for those of us who have already passed only the SE1 and are contemplating the SE2 exam, and future SE designation fiasco.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Anybody know if you have to be a civil engineer in Oregon before you become a structural engineer (like CA, WA, & ID)?  I can't seem to tell from their website.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Browse around SE Certification Board website for more licensure info. http://www.secertboard.org/  

The SECB is a certification one can get to be a "structural engineer" in the those states that don't acknowledge the difference.  There is definately a push right now to get more states to recognize structural engineers seperately.

Concerning grandfathering, Utah just passed a bill to recognize structural engineers.  To be "grandfathered" in you had to have 3 years of structural engineering experience as a P.E.  No SE exams involved.  http://le.utah.gov/~2008/bills/sbillamd/sb0200.htm
Correct me if I'm wrong.

BTW - Thanks for the spreadsheet JAE.



 

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I have a question for some of the older engineers out there.  What do you feel the probability is that as of April 2011 the switch will actually take place?  I ask this because I am eligible to sit for the exam as of April 2010.  I work in Illinois, so this directly influences my licensing. If I am confident that the change will actually take place in April 2011, I will probably not sit for the exams in April 2010.   

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

(OP)
I can't see it not happening.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I agree with JAE.  The states depend on NCEES to provide and grade these tests.  So unless they want to develop their own exams (some used to), they have very little choice.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I don't know if it's where I'm located or what, but I know VERY few engineers who have taken the time to take the SEII.  I don't know if that's a result of the test being difficult or the fact that it's not required to practice in our state.  
Should all of us who are going to be taking the new exam expect this exam to be difficult since it is intended to make up for the SEI, SEII, and state-specific exams?  I was feeling very good about taking the SEI and didn't feel like I'd much trouble passing it with little effort, but this new test has me a bit worried - especially since I'll be taking it the first time it's offered.  I'm eligible to take the SEI in the Fall of '10, but I intended to take the SEII after that.  Since I won't be able to take the SEII after that, I'm going to wait the six months and take the new exam.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

StructuralEIT,
Take the civil PE exam in Fall 2010 to get your PE, then sit for the Structural exam the next spring.  

As far as I understand, the new SE exam is to become licensed as an SE, not a PE.  The new exam is only going to be mandatory for people in states that require licensure as an SE to do structural engineering.  I really believe (and hope) that more states will require the exams in the future, but for now the more important thing is the PE license.  

I'm in GA, and will be sitting for the PE exam this fall, and I do plan to take the new SE exam in 2011, but that's only because I really like structural engineering and studying for tests late into the night.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

SEIT,
I'm in the exact same situation you are in.  I will be first eligible to sit for the PE exam in Fall 2010, the last time that the Structural PE will be offered as it currently exists.

I agree completely with Whiffle that you should sit for your PE in the fall, then take the SE.  The only difference is that I would say to take Structural I in the fall; if you're planning to get the SE, it will be a good stepping stone and at the very least good practice for the 16-hr SE.  The PE is what is required in most states, and there are too many unknowns that come with the new 16-hr SE exam: how tough will it be?, will states recognize it?, etc.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

steellion,

I don't recommend taking the SEI.  If you plan to become licensed as a SE, you should take the Civil exam in 2010 to get PE licensed.  In the future if you want to get licensed as a SE, some states require to have passed the Civil exam first before applying for SE licensure.  The SEI does nothing for you at this point.  Lame Duck exam.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

(OP)
ARLORD - can you cite which states require a PE prior to getting an SE?  I think California might but I'm not aware of any others.

 

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Not sure if Wyoming is correct in JAEs link?  My Wyoming stamp says I'm a Professional Engineer (Structural).

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

JAE

I believe Nevada requires the civil PE in addition to the SEI and SEII exams to be licensed as a SE...along with Idaho as well. (I think) (CA, WA and OR might as well)

Neffers

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I can't take the Civil PE.  I've never done ANY civil work and had no civil courses in college outside of fluid mechanics, surveying, and structural classes.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

ARLORD,
If that's the case, then I'm really in a predicament.  I've never taken a Civil class in my life.  My degree is in Architectural Engineering, with a specialization in Structural Engineering.  I really don't have the desire to teach myself all of the non-structural related civil concepts that would be on a Civil PE if I'm never going to use them.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I called Nevada the other day because I am an SE in California and asked about reciprocity.  They have just changed their law to not have to be a civil PE in order to apply for the SE.  Therefore no civil exam is required for the SE in NV now.

akastud

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

StructuralEIT, Steellion:
Currently the Civil exam is 1/2 breadth and 1/2 localized knowledge.  The breadth portion is 20% structural.  The localized knowledge portion could be 100% structural if you choose.  So if your civil emphasis is Structural, 1/2 + 1/5*1/2 = 60% of the exam can be taken as totally Structural meterial (with 10% each for construction, geotech, transportation, and hydrology).  It's probably not as bad as it seems for a structural engineer.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

A little less.  You left out environmental in the AM--or has that now been broken out into a separate exam?

Hg

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RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Don't worry if you have not taken any civil courses, an ex-coworker of mine was an arch-engr major and he took the civil-str and not only passed but did well in 2003.  I was impressed until I took the civil-str exam in april 09, I did not study any civil stuff, I purchased the civil review manual and used it only during the exam.  The morning is civil bredth which includes structural, soils and construction.  The afternoon is all structural.  With that you can pass.  If you know your structural you will ace the afternoon, just shoot for the str, soils and constr morning questions and you will pass.  To better you chances you can study the other civil subjects in the review manual.  I think I did 95%afternoon and 50% morning and passed.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Yes, Nevada requires Civil PE prior to SE licensure.  There are others like CA.  There are others but I am not sure.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

In addition to jt12's statement. If you are a structural engineer, I would guess you should be able to figure out a decent portion of the construction engineering based on being able to do quantity calcs.  Plus if you have done any foundation design, this will help with the geotech part.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Take the civil-str exam, you wont believe how easy it is.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

My boss doesn't want his structural engineers to take the "easy" way out by taking the Civil PE. :)

Of course, if that's the only way to eventually earn an SE, that would be a different story.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

ARLORD,

The lady at the board told me that the board itself has a revision to the law which will show up on their website after the next board meeting because the law officially has to pass through the consent agenda, but they are taking SE applications now for people without the civil PE.

akastud

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

That's good.  It just isn't logical that a Civil PE would count towards an SE but a Structural PE would not.  I have faith that by the time this new test rolls out in 2011, most of these issues will be resolved.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Jae,

There are a couple of states that I am aware that require the PE Licensure prior to SE Licensure which are Nevada  and Oregon and unless akastud was told correctly, both require the PE civil exam then you would need the SEI and SEII (and WA SEIII for OR). California also requires PE Licensure prior to SE Licensure however they allow the SEI to substitute for the PE civil exam. In addition, CA requires you to pass a 2 1/2 hour surveying exam and a 2 1/2 seismic exam the day following the CE civil exam. I am a little fuzzy on this next part as I do not live in CA, but you cannot take the CA SE III exam until you have 5 years of experience under a CA SE, which makes this difficult for engineers out of state to obtain an CA SE License. (akastud may be able to clear this up)

I have recently contacted UT and was told the SEI will substitue the CE Civil, but until you submit the application you never know. Although I have not needed to check, I believe I saw somewhere that Arizona also requires the PE civil exam.

Steellion and StructuralEIT,

I agree with arlord. If you cannot sit for the SE I until fall 2010 then there is no advantage to taking the exam because you will still need the SE exams to register as an SE and may still need the PE civil in a couple of other states (that happens to be the boat I am currently in, and now find myself taking the PE civil this fall, which to me is ridiculus as I have passed the SEI and II and only practice structural engineering, but what are you going to do, the state governments have you by the short and curlies!) Also, I would have to wonder if NCEES will even offer the SE I in the fall of 2010!

I am attaching an article that adds to some of what JAE indicates in his spreadsheet, but does not cover the specifics of each state. (at least if I am attching properly)

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I'm thoroughly confused by the supposed the need for a Civil PE en route to an SE in some states.  I've investigated the SE requirements in numerious states (it sounds as though we all have).

In every state that I've investigated, the requirement is simply to have a PE (regardless of the test taken to obtain it).  So far, I have yet to see anything explicit stating that one must pass the Civil PE test in particular.

I've obtained a PE license Washington state using comity from Wisconsin and the results of my SEI exam.  I have since applied for my SE license in WA.  I don't have it yet as, so far, I've only completed the SEII exam.  However, they have approved me to sit both exams and made no mention of the fact that I haven't passed a Civil PE examination.

I'm writing the California mini exams this fall with the hope of becoming a licensed Civil Engineer there.  I've applied requesting comity for my SEI exam and have been approved to take the exams.  I took this to mean that my SEI PE exam was okay but now I'm starting to wonder.  Unfortunately, getting a response to my question from CBPELS is taking quite a while.

MRPID:

1) How sure are you that California does in fact accept SEI in leiu of the Civil exam?  I'm pretty anxious to get that figured out definitively.

2) Which states have you encountered that definitely do require the civil PE exam?

3) I'm pretty sure that CA only requires that your references be licensed SE's in California OR Washington.  That gives you a little more flexibility.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

mrpid,

California requires you to be in responsible charge for 3 years after obtaining your PE (which in CA can be done after 2 years).  I am from AZ so I got my PE 4 yrs after college and had to work for 3 years in responsible charge to be eligible.  You do have to have 3 references from licensed SE's, but CA allows these references to NOT be direct supervisors as other states have required of me.  I had worked with one SE but I called 2 other SE's and had them "interview" me and examine some of my work and they filled out the reference sheet.  I can tell you that I took the WA SEIII exam and it was really tough, but not impossible.

akastud

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Kootenay Kid --

I am positive that CA will accept SE1 in lieu of their Civil PE.  I know this because I just passed the Structures I in my home state, then applied to CA to take their seismic and surveying for my PE in CA, and they accepted (and I passed).

All-
Where I'm confused about all of this is what the states will do to people who have passed Stuctures I, but not Structures II...how will grandfathering work.  I've already passed SE1.  Will I have to take the whole 16 hour test?  Just the Sat. part?  I don't know.  I guess one option is to just take Structures II in April '10 and be done with it.

 

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

In my opinion Str II was easier than Str I.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Thanks for the response JK.  I wasn't looking forward to having to be ready for the Civil exam in 8 weeks (in addition to the minis).

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Thanks akastud! I had read different things, but was not quite sure.

KootenenayKid,
It sounds like JK answered the first part of your question, but as far as states that I am aware of that require the PE Civil are NV and OR. (Although as stated above NV may have since changed). Both of these states were states I contacted and was told yes after having read on their websites that the PE Civil is required. I have not applied for registration as why pay the fee and then learn that you may not get registered. I am sitting for the CA minis this fall and have decided to take the civil while I am there, but I will concentrate on the minis, because I can always take the civil in any state and living on the east coast, want to make sure I pass the survey/seismic exams.I believe once I pass these three exams then I can get registered in all 50 states at least as a PE and as an SE in a few.

I do like the states creating a distinction between Civil Engineers and Structural Engineers (and maybe the new NCEES exam will help in this regard), but all these different tests seem to be over the top. And going through the Cuomo Surveying Study book thinking I seen this before in the college days, but certainly not anything I feel I need to know to be a Structural Engineer! Although others may disagree.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Almost worthwhile to move to a third world country to avoid this...

Dik

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

(OP)
Like the Bahamas!!!

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

FYI: I've been in contact with the Oregon licensing board.  I was told that they do indeed consider the SEI exam to be equivalent to the civil PE exam for comity applications.  However, they made it clear that they handle it on a case by case basis and are not willing to commit to it in writting.  So yeah, Oregon here I come...

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

For those of us that took the SE1 exam instead of the CE exam to become licensed structural engineers for buildings, we are getting the shaft as it were with regards to the new combined exam.  I took the SE1 with the intent of taking the SE2 sometime in the future to become an SE.  Now, my SE1 exam will be considered equivalent to the CE exam for all practical purposes in every state.  If I want to become an SE, I need to take the combo exam.  Is that how everyone sees it?

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

archeng59...you still have a few more chances to take and pass the SE II exam...

neffers

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

Yup.  That's how I see it.  I'm just grateful that SEI IS considered equivalent most places.  I wan't even sure that would be the case.

I'll probably just end up taking the new combined exam.  My money says it'll be easier than SEII & SEIII taken in combination.  For now, I'm applying for SE licensure in all of the jurisdictions in which I qualify before the exams change over.  Basically throwing money at the probem.

I feel for newly minted structural engineers as well.  A whole lot of them are going to want to get started as PE's, not SE's.  And they won't have any choice but to take the civil exam.  I felt much more comfortable obtaining my PE by taking an exam that was relavant to my work history.

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I agree with KootenayKid about feeling more comfortable taking the SE1 instead of the CE because my experience was with buildings, not bridges and other civil structures.

 

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

I am new to this forum and have been reading everyone's thoughts regarding the new SE2 exam starting 2011.  Like most of you, I too have passed the SE1 exam about 8 years ago and gave up on the SE2 exam due to the constant changes in the codes. I've decided to take the Civil PE exam instead and eventually retake the SE2 exam at a later time.
In the light of the SE exam change, I'm afraid, I now have to do it sooner than later.

I am asking those of you out there fortunate enough to pass the SE2 exam recently for some suggestions as to what to focus on. I will be selecting the building questions.

Any recommendation on reference materials with good example problems on the wind and seismic 2006 IBC?

 

RE: Article by Structural Engineers Assoc. on SE exams

JAE,
Thanks for the information

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