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Customer shopped concept proposal to others
17

Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Customer shopped concept proposal to others

(OP)
A potential customer asked me for a proposal for a special turn-key machine.  

I suggested and submitted a proposal for an entirely different concept that I thought would be much better than what he asked for. I spent a lot of time researching vendors for some of the components, including spending an extra day and night in Chicago speaking with the major vendors of two of the components, and a lot of time putting together a concept CAD model and proposal.  This was done without cost to them, and the email containing the proposal was marked confidential.  

He reviewed it, liked it and after a couple weeks said a purchase order was coming.  

Time went by, no PO. He said he still wanted to do it, but had to wait till a later date.  

After several months, I get an email from a 3rd party  consultant, whom has also been a customer, letting me know that they are reviewing proposals, but want me to quote portions of my own original proposal, while they parse out portions to others, and go direct to the suppliers that I previously researched.

I feel it was unethical to take my original concepts, shop it around and parse out some of the pieces to others, and then have the nerve to ask me to requote some portions.  When I was a younger engineer on the recieving end of quotes, my boss taught me to never share suppliers plans and quotes or use them as leverage for requotes.  I have since found that this whole concept seems foriegn to some people.

My gut reaction is to let these two know that I believe this was an unethical use of my proposal, and that I no longer want to do business with them (even though they are throwing me a bone by allowing me to now quote on a portion of my own concept).

Before I burn these two bridges permanently, I'd like to find out what others think; Did they cross a line in taking my concept and proposal, seek quotes from others for it, and then try to parse it out to others in whatever way that suites them best? Or am I being too unrealistic, and should I take whatever scraps I can get?  

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

4
Yes they did cross a line, but it happens all the time. If you refuse to do business with such characters you will have a small but very good customer base.

In future you need to supply just enough or have a contract in place. Some will just breach the contract and in effect dare you to sue them. Being right and winning a law suit (winning is a very relative term in this regard) will still leave you with a stigma no matter how right you were.

Bottom line, try to only deal with ethical clients, but when dealing with unethical ones, limit your input, use contracts and be prepared to get done over to what you decide is an acceptable extent.

Oh, and if you see a chance to even the score, think twice. If you lower yourself to their level what have you gained, also you may get a name as bad as theirs, but then again, you just may get a chance to getaway clean, if so in that case take it.

 

Regards
Pat
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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Did they cross a line? My bloody oath they did.

I have had this happen to me once before, I outlined what I believed was my original concepts in the design and sent him a note, I made it very clear if these items showed up on the final design there would be questions from my lawyer. I then sent a note to the engineer informing him that i hadn't been paid for my preliminary work, and as professional courtesy I suggested that he not continue to work on this project until i had been paid.

In the end, i ended up getting half my quote price as a payout. In addition, another half from the engineer that won the project, because he did not have the technical skills to complete the design.

So get your side in writing and ensure your facts are straight. Then start the writing your hard but fair notes to the client and engineer. Have your lawyer look them over and make a few suggestions. Even get him to do the follow up call, makes people notice that your serious.  

When in doubt, just take the next small step.
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

The bottom line is to not put anything of tangible value into a quote.

The only time I was bitten was when I wrote a proposal for digging a potential customer out of a hole they'd dug.  It contained a project plan.  They thanked us and then used my plan themselves.

- Steve

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Yes, it happens all the time - and ome people don't even see anything wrong.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I have seen this over and over.  A lot of unethical people out there.  Give little detail as possible in a quote, also give warnings about the use of your quote other than its intention inside the quote.

Give an overall price but alot of customers won't accept this either.

Your lawyer calling them is probably the best idea, since you have no perspective or you are very angry with them, so you contacting them will just be unprofessional or turn that way.  

I do not know how much time I have seen wasted on my end on quoting where the customer goes thru the concept stage to go have it competively bidded by other similar companies.

I think the best way to handle this is to put a price on the concept inside the quote if they go this route and competively bid your quote out to others.  That way you take it to the lawyer and you get paid that price.  Otherwise I do not think you more than a leg to stand on.

 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Sadly, yes, it's absurdly common.  We briefly a GOVERNMENT customer once, on a concept, and nothing came of it.  Years later, I run across a patent on our concept awarded to the same customer.

This is where the lawyers come in.  

You should, however, protect yourself with non-disclosure agreements (NDAs), proprietary information markings and stamps, and so on.

TTFN

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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I got pushed into our quoting department as cuts were being made 3 months ago.  Customers surprise me every day at what they will go through in order to save some money.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Yes, NDAs are the rule here also.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

It's an interesting situation, sorry it has happened to you.

In common law countries, UK, Canada, etc, an offer to contract (your proposal) has been interpreted as meeting legal requirements of being a contract.  A proposal includes offer-acceptance-consideration, consideration here being acceptance of the proposal.

From there, every case becomes different.

Probably, reasonableness includes your proposal being accepted in total and all the work coming to you.  So contract breach could be interpreted in that both the acceptance and consideration aspect have not been executed per the offer.  Probably what your client should have done was enter negotiations with you to parcel out work, where you can adjust your scope and price.

Of course, all this assumes legal action.

From the minimal information, I wonder at the statement "submitted a proposal" but from the description it sounds like a design was somewhat completed.  The two are quite different, and it's a case by case basis as to how much design information to include in a proposal.

The first course of action is always to request discussion with your client, quietly, professionally, and start documenting everything, dates, times, names.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

2
In the future, do not get so detailed.  Don't give them any real meat, obscure it, put smoke around it and give them a very low recommended budget (that you can meet).

Happens all the time. When I first started, I found people using my detailed proposals and going to others.

Changed my way of doing business.

I will submit proposals with details if folks want to pay for them . . . no more freebies.

Good luck.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

2
Richard,
I feel for you man.  I have been there many times when I was younger and all excited about the great ideas my firm was able to develop for "clients".  After the crap you describe happened to us a few times, I took an alternate approach.  Now my business is probably different than yours so it may not work as well, but, rather than document with an extensive paper trail, I give them very little in writing.  I discuss things and talk with them but generally I resist their request for free drawings, conceptual design, etc.  It is a simple fact of human nature, people want what they can't or don't have. I mean why else would hugh grant have fooled around on Elizabeth Hurley with a skanky hooker?  
A paper trail in preparation for legal action is one way, but lets be real, the minute the damn attorneys are involved, you loose.  This technique has worked so well that sometimes I almost can't get rid of clients I don't even want to work for.  I had one such client call me yesterday....I sent him down the road a year and a half ago because I did not want to do his work and suggested that he just go ahead and use the competing firm.  He told me he wished he could turn the clock back 18 months and get me to work for him.  I guess, i will get the other two pahses of his project and he will be better to work for now that he is softened up.   Good luck man.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

It can all go wrong in several ways for several reasons, but then again it can go so right for so long, that it becomes awe inspiring.

Example one.

Working for Bayer as a Market Development Engineer.
Client had an issue where the clear polycarbonate centre section (window) was falling out of a cloths dryer door. It was held into the PPO/styrene alloy outer section by swagging the PPO over the polycarbonate. The PPO quickly solvent stress crack at the swagged over area. As the air then came through the large hole in the door and not over the heating element, the element overheated and set the cloths on fire, resulting in several house fires.

I recommended a one piece clear PC door with the portion required to be opaque to be back painted. You could see the designers eyes light up as he asked if that was possible (ie, and very importantly, he did not know it was possible at the time). Bayer did the mould flow and FEA for them on agreement that their material was specified. The design team specified Bayers Makrolon 2603 and recommended section thickness and detail changes to the hinge and latch areas. Our opposition recommended PPO, which importantly is not available in an opaque grade. They were dismissed out of hand as being stupid in this case. It was their previous recommendation that was failing.

The mould was made using Bayers and my recommendations. It was trialled and worked and passed all tests and marketing was delighted with the back painted look.

Production for their own reasons decided to call in our opposition who then advised it must be in a flame retardant material as previous models had caught fire. Note, the fire never started at the door.

They trialled Flame retardant PC from another source but could not fill the mould (surprise surprise). They then increased section thickness eventually by 50% but still had huge reject numbers due to black specs and flow marks (clear FR PC does not mould very well). After 12 months were lost and the mould modifications caused pice costs to increase by about 50% they eventually went back to the non FR PC, but even then, production used the non specified opposition material. After another 12 months of political infighting between production and design departments and questioning of motives, did production start to use some of the specified material.

There was a contract, but production claimed it was not binding as Bayer never offered a FR version. The fact was they had one but recommended not to use it as it was unnecessary, expensive and could not be moulded in the design. This was enough to muddy the waters from a legal point of view.

Example 2

I worked for ICI who in Australia represented Mitsubishi Gas Chemical for their PC range.

I visited a customer who was trying to mould transparent tint PC surf board fins. Transparent tint was a fashion MUST HAVE for surfboard fins in the day. The major player in the PC market made recommendations for a big fan gate into the top of the fin. This resulted in flow marks that could not be eliminated. I recommended a different gate design and explained why. As it was a simple on the spot recommendation and was part of our free technical service for customers, there was no written contract, but a simple understanding that if advice was used to good effect, it would be rewarded with orders for materials. He made the changes and was the first in the world to mould transparent PC fins without flow marks. For two years he exported fins to the rest of the world including Germany, Japan and the USA as they could not mould fins locally without flow marks. This was in the late 1970s. As fins evolved, he stayed one jump ahead and was a major supplier to the world market for about ten to fifteen years. He always consulted me on any new project and still occasionally directs consulting work my way. He still buys any materials he can from whomever I recommend or whoever I am associated with.

He now lives about 500 miles away in Qld on 15 acres at Currumbin Creek in the Gold Coast hinterland and I stay at his house when I visit there. He is offended if I try to pay anything. His comment when I tried to pay was "Pat, see all this, without your help, I would not have any of it". I think he overstates my role in his success, but it is encouraging to see the appreciation and loyalty.

I could go on with many more examples on both sides of the argument, but basically, you win some you lose some, contract or not.

Oh.

The one who honoured the understanding beyond all expectations was a small independent part time toolmaker, part time moulder, part time surfer who bought 20 tonnes per year of material at his peak. He continues to grow and thrive.

The one who welshed on the contract was the largest whitegoods manufacturer in the country. They bought hundreds of tonns of material per year. They have been restructured, merged, divested and taken over until they are now only a badge used by a European owned company on Chinese made machines.
  

Regards
Pat
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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

NDA's are fairly common.  Has anyone here ever been involved in using one in anger?

- Steve

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Pat,
If I could I would start a "story time" thread for the blokes that have been around the block a few times could relay their tales of life, because as far as I can see, ron, Hokie, Big H..... and you plus a few others (the list would get to long to name all), have got some great stories inside yourselfs that would make for great reading/book.
 

When in doubt, just take the next small step.
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

The std defense of prior knowledge often makes NDA difficult to enforce. Often the prior knowledge is fair dinkum.

I have certainly been shown some very Ho Hum secrets that were already well known to me and several others. Some were even pretty much straight out of our technical manuals.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Maybe start using non-disaclosure/proprietary information agreements. Make sure they are signed by a company officer and contain a recourse for expensive enforcement liability if violated.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Yes, it has happened to me too.
I visited a client with a problem and thoroughly investigated, put together recommendations, sourced the various components, detailed the installation and operation procedures and then heard no more about it till I discovered he was using my proposal to source all his components and was going to do the engineering himself and not use my sub-contractor.
I got nothing out of it.

However, it is just one of those things and if at the end of the year you are still alive and out of jail, what more can you ask? You sometimes need to be philosophical and realistic.

The biggest problem is when people are not realistic. They then make bad decisions for the wrong reasons because they don't understand the nature of business life which is sometimes going to be hard and very unfair.

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

(OP)
Thanks everyone for the insightful information.  Sounds like I'm not alone, but lots of you have learned ways to deal with it.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I was once on the other side of the fence.

I was working for a big-ish company, that I thought was pretty classy overall.  One fine day a couple of proposals were dumped on my desk for evaluation and comment.

It took me a while to figure out that my company had taken one supplier's proposal and reproduced it as their own RFP.

It took me a while after that to stop feeling sleazy about it.

Oh.  I still have no idea who, if anyone, got the contract, or why the proposals ended up on my desk.  Maybe a freak accident.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I should point out that getting ones proposed concept encapsulated into an RFP isn't necessarily a bad thing.

In most of my previous companies, the goal of business development was to get to the customer BEFORE RFP release, and to get the final RFP tailored toward our strengths and away from our competitors, which would, in some cases, be taking our design concept, which we understood well, and putting our competitors on a steep learning curve to understand how to make our concept work, without knowing all our design details.  

One particular competitor even had a "lock-out" manual that explained how a customer could lock out other competitors by specifying specific features or functions that only our competitor provided.

Likewise, when I was buying test equipment, and wanted only a Tektronix oscilloscope, I would scour the Tektronix catalog description for items that I could put into my sole source justification to ensure that the buyer would have to buy that specific Tektronix model of oscilloscope.

Obviously, this is different that someone just stealing your design, but the boundary is quite thin, and you're obviously betting on the come, and sometimes, you just get craps.

TTFN

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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Why didn't the original specification go out to three companies?

It might be because you work for a company that has to have three bids to choose from and you want to choose, not the let buyer choose.

You send the spec to the preferred supplier and he does all the hard work and, if he is clever, includes a spoiler, some feature that only he can offer.

Now you write a bid request such that the other two companies don't have too much work to do but who will bid with exceptions or alternatives and who will hope that one day hey get to be preferred bidder. If some companies no-bid you just send it out some more.

Some will bid too high or too low and some like to bid as close as they can just for the fun of it.
I can't think how many times I have worked on bids knowing we were not going to get the business but did it anyway. Some times it pays off at some future date but in any case, I had some work to do, the field guy had some work, the quotes boosted the bid value on the books and the work I did do wasn't nearly as much as it would have been if the preferred bidder (we sometimes knew who it was) has had first chance and has done all the hard work.

Other ways are to send the bid requests to companies who will no-bid or who will turn in silly bids with prices too high or too low to be trusted. I hate no-bidding because then you have no chance, you bid, you at least have some chance, however small and at some time, just to keep you playing you may get a genuine shot where they don't have a preferred bidder for a project.

For all the rules the clever people think up to try and make things "fair and above board" or simply to give the buyer some decisions to make (if it is the buyer who wants three bids) there are all sorts of brighter engineers who can figure out how to have purchasing buy the exact product they want.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

A common practice for some operating companies is to select one contractor for the basic or FEED engineering; while prohibiting the FEED contractor from bidding to do the detailed engineering or other subsequent work.  People working these type projects know how the system works.  They either try to bid the FEED design; or try to participate in the detailed engineering or construction scope.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

(OP)
Is it correct to assume the FEED contractor has a higher price than the others that do the detailed work?

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Don't feel too bad; I've had customers grab completed plans and then try to find another contractor to install my designs for a lower price than agreed on thus saving money by stiffing me.

Since a few naive incidents the policy is: no money - no plans.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

What sometimes works is to promise only "unstamped" drawings in your FEED deliverables.

Unfortunately, the Engineering Association / Board might still consider these unstamped deliverables as a bona-fide practice of engineering for which you nonetheless might be held accountable even if someone else built to them in the next phase.

Ideally, at some point, people can / should only build to a set of professionally endorsed (stamped) deliverables.  Either they just rubber-stamp someone else's design, which is stupid, or they build to an unstamped design, which is stupid, or they re-invent the wheel, which is stupid, or they copy in large measure the design and then stamp it without fully understanding it, which is stupid.

If professionally endorsed (stamped) deliverables are part of the requirements for the FEED or PROPOSAL, then I do agree that withholding of same until 100% of the bill is paid is appropriate.  The FEED / PROPOSAL contractor should also, in my mind, be permitted to bid on the detailed work, perhaps with a credit given in the bid for the FEED / PROPOSAL work already completed.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

A question from the other side of the fence. I work for a highway department, and we often issue RFPs for our more complicated design projects. Sometimes a firm that doesn't get the job has an idea in their proposal that is too good to ignore.

Our responsibility to the taxpayer is to give them the best project we can for their dollar, but what is our responsibility to the firm with the good idea?

     "...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail." - Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

"I'm searching for the questions, so my answers will make sense." - Stephen Brust

 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Your responsibility to the firm with the good idea is to pay them for it.  How could you even have any doubts?  Being a state agency does not give license to steal.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

"Our responsibility to the taxpayer is to give them the best project we can for their dollar, but what is our responsibility to the firm with the good idea?"

Can't believe that I just read that...surprise *shakes head*

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

That's pretty much what I thought. Unfortunately, the Mgt.  sees it this way:

They know when they are writing a proposal, that there will be no compensation for their work unless they get selected. They also know they won't get selected unless they put some effort into the proposal.

It bothers me that the unsuccessful firms don't even get a "thank you" for the thought they put into the proposal.

Competition is pretty fierce. We got 13 proposals for a simple 60' bridge on level terrain. If it isn't a federal aid project, their fee basically has to be in the bottom three to get the contract.

 

     "...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail." - Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

"I'm searching for the questions, so my answers will make sense." - Stephen Brust

 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

That sounds similar to;
Management for every large store knows that there will be some stock loss due to shoplifting, therefore it is OK to shoplift.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I wish I knew this when i worked at target near on 12 years ago.  

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Its not OK to shoplift but, with a self service retail model, shoplifting and spoilage are part of the cost of doing business.
It isn't condoned, it isn't excused.
If it gets to bad then rather than throw away the business model they try and bolster it up with store detectives, cctv, tagging etc. always balancing the cost of the problem against the cost of the cure.
There is no satisfactory solution in real life, just compromises.

No one likes having their ideas or their hard work ripped off. It happens and it is the cost of doing business.
If you don't bid you don't get the job. If, to try and get the job you give away more than you'd like then your choice is to live with it or try and control it.
If it gets to be too bad an issue then enough people will get together and collectively do something about it.

I'd guess the first thing to do is not to sit on it but bring the issues up with the user body, society etc so they can know that their members are concerned, so they can measure the scale of the problem and so they can take whatever steps are appropriate to have the situation modified or clarified.

Individual companies will always be at a disadvantage because they are at risk of getting no contracts at all however good their bid if they stir the pot. But, if they and others collectively believe the problem is getting out of hand then the problem will be addressed.

The fact that this goes on doesn't make it right, all it indicates is that it hasn't reached the proportions where enough people feel strongly enough for action to be taken.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I am completely lost as to how anyone can excuse IP theft on the basis that they are the government and that makes it OK.

Surely the representatives of the people should behave better than a bunch of crooks.

The engineers you rip off are also your constituents.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

This is about drawings requested and presumably there may be some copyright involved in the drawing but Intellectual property rights are very poorly protected in law.

Even if you have a patent on an idea you have only as much protection as you can afford to spend on lawyers.

Trevor Baylis is calling for some changes:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/yourbusiness/businesstechnology/6127304/Inventor-of-wind-up-radio-calls-for-tougher-patent-laws.html

He makes some very good points.
The whole protection status of intellectual property is archaic and really does need overhauling. I doubt it will be easy or contention free but I would agree that it should be very much easier to gain protection (the cost of patents is beyond most peoples reach and it is only the big companies that can afford it.
ideas.

So in this case, if there is novel work done and presented it ought to be made easy to register the drawings and obtain legal protection enforceable by government.



 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

It is entirely possible to be unethical and a crook without breaking any laws.

It is a sad state of affairs when it is commonplace that our governments behave in such a fashion and to think it is actually their duty to do so.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

So, how do we fix it?  What do you do if someone has a great idea for a solution, but their proposal does not meet the other requirements?

The idea in question was an observation that realigning a roadway would make traffic control during construction much easier. I'm not sure it was copywritable, but they were a bit miffed. Understandably so.

As it worked out, they bid on and got two other jobs we let, totaling about $15M in construction costs.

So, if it happens again, I'll definitely speak up about it, but if their bid is unreachable in the rankings for other reasons, how can we make them whole?

Ask the winning consultant to use them as a sub for the related portion of the design? I'd understand if they refused.

Give them a few extra points the next time we evaluate bids? Is that fair to the others?

Somehow come up with some fair monetary value for their observation and give that to them? I'm not sure the County Legislature would approve the spending.

Live with the fact that we may not get bids from the best firms until the current Commissioner retires? Sadly, that may be the result.

     "...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail." - Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

"I'm searching for the questions, so my answers will make sense." - Stephen Brust

 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

What you do is you forget everything about the bid if you choose not to accept it.  Plain and simple.  If you don't hire them you don't get to use any of their ideas.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I'm not sure if the government allows such a thing (particularly since their the ones bidding for the job), but what if you proposed a payment for the use of the idea?  If they reject the payment, you don't get to use the idea.  If something like that was allowed, it truly would be in the best interest of the public.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Yes, the downside of the current approach which while unethical appears not to be illegal, is that you have to wonder how many good ideas have been held back because of this.
I know it happens all the time. Indeed, I know of one company that has designed what would be the perfect sensor for the car industry but refuses to even discuss it with them or bring it to their attention because they practically went bankrupt the last time they tried to do business.
Even on the factory floor level you can bet there are many operations where the operators, using the machinery and doing the tasks day in and day out know how to do it better and save money but keep quiet and keep to the written up method because they know they'll get naff all for their ideas, probably not even a thanks.
It has to be faced, the taking and using of other peoples intellectual property is common place, un-policed and damages far more than the few companies who have dealt in good faith and had their ideas stolen, it damages everyone because of the ideas that never see the light of day.
In the UK we have a government that came to power proclaiming a policy of ethical behaviour.
Yeah, right.
They can't even do that at international level let alone help create an ethical environment for small business or local government.
So as I said above, I guess it would have to start at the bottom and work its way up and if no one company wants to put its head above the parapet and risk never getting another contract that ought to be through the various professional organisations.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I find the whole patent deal interesting. Just a few years ago I developed a design for a contractor that would cut a $$$$ off for most of his projects, the idea was neither original nor new.  I had put a few existing ideas together, spent the time I had to refine the design, and done what I was paid to do in my opinion. I do the same thing day in day out as this is what engineering is, in my opinion (as long as I get paid for this work I'm happy). However this design has since been patented in part by my former firm.  How can a firm patent an idea that is neither original nor new?  

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

One option, is to reconfigure your procurements, if you think there's a possibility of a non-compliant, but good, idea.  In some military development procurements, it's not unusual for the winner to be told to work with a specific company, because they had a good idea, but a non-winning proposal.

Other procurements downselect af PDR.  This does have the extra cost of an extra contractor until PDR.

Or, as suggested by my coworker regarding landscaping, which is that you contract separately for the best design, and then compete the actual build.

TTFN

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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

The real dilemma comes when you evaluate a plan and find some good points and some really bad points. You want to incorporate the good points and eliminate the bad. It gets even more complex when several plans each have both good and bad points.

There are various possible fair courses of action and you can only be guided by your conscience.

Throwing suitable sized crumbs can be a solution, as can be suggesting a joint venture as can be awarding alternate contracts as can be nominal payment for part use only.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Thing is, you don't get rewards for good ideas in failed bids.
Not only don't you get rewards you probably had to purchase the tender documents anyway.

In a practice it is the equivalent of saying that any good ideas submitted become public domain information.
If you can't protect your idea, the choice to reveal or conceal is yours.

Its wrong? Maybe.
But I can't see handing out cash awards to failed bidders being justifiable to the shareholders or the public.
The easiest and cheapest interpretation will always be chosen.
The next best thing is to submit a better bid next time.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

"The next best thing is to submit a better bid next time" better or cheaper????

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Surely a better bid is one that is accepted.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Depends on whom is in charge of project. My bet is if it is a guy with a 3 year business degree, that probably hasn't seen the outside of the office due to his he being stuck up someone a$$ for the majority of his career. That was born from a generation "y" that has spent the best years of his life inside playing computer games. Probably has never bothered to work out how to pump up his own tyres, little alone  lift his bonnet of his own can and get a bit of grease on his hands, thinks the grease will cut his life short for some reason, and would prefer to pay someone to take care of this and any related  cr*p. While he was at uni was drilled about keeping the bottom line in check, thus has done this since day dot and has been rewarded heavily for this stance with promotion after promotion.

Taking all this into account and that the person hasn't a clue in the world about how your proposal works nor cares, all he wants to do is get the project on line for a cheap as possible. All he wants to do is get a design ticks all the "must fill box's". And the major box that his boss cares about is cost, then I would say the cheaper bid will win any day.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Bidding for tenders depends on the rules.
Of all qualified bids (i.e. technically approved) the lowest price will often win no matter if it delvers less than another bid.
But there are always ways and means.
The preferred vendor may find the tender written in such a manner that only the preferred vendor can properly qualify. For example, pick two part epoxy paint might appear and he is the only one to quote two part epoxy paint. That it is an irrelevance is not something purchasing can decide by the vetting engineer can.
Thus preferred vendor might be he who buys the most lunches.

Then too, some high bids may be for plant with minimal cost of ownership while the low bid is where the maintenance costs are extreme... it is where he makes his money.... and bids are usually going to be settled based on capital cost, not running costs.

Some companies conclude "strategic alliances" which means they get the business no matter what. It may mean they don't always provide the cheapest solution nor always the best solution and sometimes their's is the most expensive and the least good but the cost of purchasing is simplified and no one spends time researching different suppliers.

And of course, in the end, as Rowingengineer so delicately points out, in the end it may not be cost benefit or technical but the vagaries of some brown-noser's suck up factor that decides the issue.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

There are as many reasons for approving or rejecting a contract as there are contracts.

The more common ones are:-
Confidence in a supplier.
To lazy or busy or naive to look for new suppliers.
Limited number of suppliers meet specification.
A relative works for one contender.
Bribes.
Lunches.
Women.
Their rep is hot.
Their rep attends the same church.
Their rep plays in the same football team.
Their rep supports the same football team.
Their company owner lives next door.
You are dating the owners daughter.
Patriotism.
Parochialism.
Racism.
Capital cost.
Anticipated running costs.
To spend the budget before it is lost.
Technical advantages.
Reputation.
Prestige.
Convenience.
Bundled in a bigger package.
Rebates.
Delivery time.
Accreditation.
Perceived risk factor.
They offer one feature you consider most important.
Your opposition just let them down.
Your opposition has them on credit hold.
Your opposition just started legal action against them.
They absolutely need another product that you have exclusively and you use that as leverage or even blackmail.
Blackmail.
Contract tied to support.
Favors owed.
Your turn.
Strategic reasons, like keeping two or more suppliers viable.
National interest.
Political party donations.
You were first to quote.
You were the only submission.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

There are lots of ways around the lowest bidder scenario.  In the defense industry, "best value" and "price realism" are both attempts at "fixing" low-ball bids so that they cab be evaluated on an equal footing.

The bottom line is that the Customer can almost always choose the supplier that they really, really want, regardless of the requirements compliance or cost.

TTFN

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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Such cynics!

We try to be objective when rating proposals. We are human, and I'm sure subjectivity creeps into it, but hopefully by combining the scores of 4 reviewers, it evens out.

These are the criteria we rate by:
Criterion / weight
Proposer's comprehension of the required scope of services  /  3
Prior experience in similar projects /    3
Professional qualifications /    3
Total proposed price /    2
Proposer's demonstrated capabilites /    2
Length of time in business / 2
Client References / 2
Staffing (Evaluation of Employees' resumes) / 1
Disadvantaged business enterprise goals / 1

So, all ye cynics, you'll see price is weighted less than comprehension of the project, qualifications and experience. In effect, a good proposal from the second or third bidder can overcome a lower bid by a competitor.

Personnally, I'd fold staffing into professional qualifications, and time in business should be part of prior experience.

     "...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail." - Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

"I'm searching for the questions, so my answers will make sense." - Stephen Brust

 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I generally assume that if I have good ideas that I include in the concept, it is a reflection of the quality of the design they can expect. I hope that those reviewing the proposals would be able to see the benefits and decide if they are willing to pay a little more for them. Often, this can be something like improvements to the ease of maintenance. In some cases, it seems better to lose a bid based on the cost of these little additions than to build it as cheap as possible and then have the customer's complaints and screaming for repairs (under warranty) and generally getting a bad reputation for poor design.

In some cases it's possible to submit a "what you asked for bid" and then point out areas for improvements you see and note that these items are not included in the quoted price. Then, you are competing with other bidders on a level playing field while demonstrating your desire to produce the best quality.

Yes, it can bite you, and that sucks. However, believing that I am increasing/maintaining my companies reputation by promoting a standard of quality and superior design allows me to get over the sting of having my hard work and ideas stolen. Maybe it's naive, but I'll go my route until my boss tells me to keep the bids to exactly what they ask for or to leave details out of the concept.

I'm paid to provide the best design I can based on my judgement, and that's what I'll do. If my priorities on what the "best" design is are not consistant with my employer, they need to let me know.

-- MechEng2005

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

ACtrafficengineer - no weighting there for the technical content of the proposal (such as the good ideas you'd like to steal?)

Grins

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

A copyright on the proposal might provide some degree of protection of the expression of ideas.

Protecting the ideas themselves may not be possible.



 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I'm occasionally in the same position as ACtrafficengineer, evaluating proposals for a munipical traffic project. And I've run into the same issue, where 'Firm C' brings up a possibility that might save some money, an alternative route or something along those lines. 'Firm C' doesn't win the bid (NOT due to cost) and we end up suggesting that the winning firm explore the idea mentioned in the proposal of 'Firm C'. We're not talking about engineered designs that we're sharing, we're talking about general ideas that may benefit the cost of the project. I'm of the opinion that my responsibility to the tax payers is to get the best project available for the lowest cost. Also note that we have a clause in our RFP that says anything submitted is public information, and not to submit information with expectation that it will be kept confidential.

We usually have 5 or 6 people on the selection committee, and not all are engineers. Our evaluation matrix for engineering consulting is below:

Applicable Experience*7
Approach to Project*8
Cost Saving Innovations*7
Technical Expertise*8
Adequate Resources*7
Project Innovations*9
Project Proximity*7
Performance on Past Projects*9
Familiarity of Project*8
Proposal Quality*5

Back to the OP: What happened in this case is different in that it was strictly private sector, and a shifty tactic by said client. I'd take it as a lesson to avoid that client in the future, or work on a way to explain the benefits of your idea, without giving the idea out explicitly. PatPrimmer has it spot on.
 

Tim Grote - The Irrigation Engineers.
www.irrigationengineers.com

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I have found that proposals for work should contain very little detail. A contract and progress payment should be the signal to feed detailed information. Further, protracted consultation should have a price tag attached, otherwise bring discussions to a swift close. The goal is payment for services, not giving away design details.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Well, that works, presumably, in some cases, but in others, it's those design details that distinguish your proposal from someone elses.  And, in some cases, it's those design details that fully justify why your proposal has realistic costs, while someone with no details is simply lowballing.

I can tell you that we've been involved with procurements where we presented design details showing why our design was compliant to a higher specification, hence more expensive, because the customer had mistakenly put in a requirement that would not have met the mission requirements.  This was against the advice of the BD guys who wanted to simply be compliant.  After the award, the customer told us that it was specifically because we demonstrated full and complete understanding of the mission requirements through our detailed analysis that we won the contract.  

Obviously, that's a bit of a unique case, but does go to show that demonstrating that you understand the requirements and that your solution actually solves your customer's true requirements is worth the effort.

TTFN

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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

I have seen this many times, and I am afraid to say there are certain parts of the world where this is rife, and I know of some serious European engineering companies who have had their fingers burnt, with stolen IP work. There is a drawing of mine sent to a potential Czech customer on the internet. It has all the legal disclaimer about copying on it, but it means jack in most countries nowadays. We had the web page translated, and basically it said- "UK Company X has proposed this, can you make it cheaper?"
Like the others say, strip out the detail, or give them loads of details on nothing at all, like bolt loadings, or things they could figure out for themselves with a decent engineering text book.
If you aren't bringing anything technically superior to the table, then you will always lose out to the lowest (most ruthless?) bidder. Then the lowest bidder gets it back with late design changes, doing exactly whatever the customer asked for - even though it may not work at all and of course the good old favourite, mind numbing levels of service charges.
NDA's are the only way to go, and in the UK, they are a reasonable insurance policy.
Although having said that Patprimmer's list above is so close to the truth, it's painful.
I know of two recruitment agencies which sends out stunning women to meet potential clients, then the blokes in the office take up the lead.
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

hoyle - which agencies are they...? wink
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

For some of the stuff I have bid recently, it has stated that all parts shall be public information, and that the public entity has the right to use any ideas contained in the proposals, as they see fit.

ACTraffic, get something like that in your RFP's and you should not have to think twice about if it is unethical.  If someone wants to put in their concepts, then they can, but they should expect that they will not be paid, except if they win the full design.  

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

They can ask for whatever they want to ask for; it doesn't mean you have to give it to them, or give it to them for free.

In military contracts, there are clauses for "right of use" as well the the ability to acquire the complete technical data rights upon complete of article 10,000, or something to that effect.

TTFN

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RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

"They can ask for whatever they want to ask for; it doesn't mean you have to give it to them, or give it to them for free."
In fact, you don't even have to put in a bid. That will stop them stealing your ideas.

RE: Customer shopped concept proposal to others

Some years ago I solicited consultation services to various large/medium firms in the state. The solicitation was sufficiently specialized that I recognized it when one firm advertised for a salaried position with the same functions that I offered. They must have been fishing for what it was worth in the salaried marketplace. Also, it must have been an attractive operation to them. I took it as a confirmation of a good idea. Never heard from them.

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