×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Where are all of the master tradesman?
18

Where are all of the master tradesman?

Where are all of the master tradesman?

(OP)
Hello Everyone,

Background:

I have been working as a mechanical design engineer at a small (<100 employees) OEM for a little over four years now. During this time, I have observed a disappointing trend and would like to hear other engineers' thoughts on the matter.

Description:

While in college, I imagined a working life analogous to that of any apprentice. I pictured a world filled with experienced tradesman - engineers who have mastered their skills after many years of experience. I was truly looking forward to working alongside such people and I was eager to learn all that I could.

Upon entering the workforce, I eventually learned that few engineers have actually mastered their trades. In fact, more shockingly, many seem to lack even the most basic fundamental knowledge and skills. I find this very disappointing. In addition, I have also noticed a trend of sloppy and poor workmanship.

Intermediate Questions:

Why have so few engineers mastered their trades? Why don't people care about quality? Why don't people seem to take pride in what they do?

Theories:

I have noticed that quality is a falsely claimed priority. Companies like to say that they "take pride in producing a quality product," but I have trouble believing them. Not when engineers are told "I don't care [that the design is incomplete or of poor quality] just release the drawings." Deadlines and managers pressure engineers to get work done as fast as possible. Quantity seems to be valued in the real world, not quality. Aside from self-respect, there is no incentive (or time) for an engineer to master his or her trade.

Closing Questions:

Is this lack of master tradesman common in engineering? Are there any environments where the quality workmanship of a master tradesman is valued over the high volume/sub par output of the average engineer?

Thank you for reading my rant! I look forward to reading your feedback!

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I think most are retired. From my experience, most of today's managers don't believe in on the job training for current engineers to learn from the old timers.
People have also become lazier, at least here in the US.
There are also a lot of engineers that don't have the knack or experience, only the college degree(s), to design or build products.

Chris
SolidWorks 09, CATIA V5
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

6
The last of the "old guys" retired 5-10 years ago.  Now the new "senior engineers" have 3-5 years experience.  Therefore, the new "old guys" never worked around anyone who had served what you're calling an apprenticeship and don't have a clue what they don't know.  

I had a consulting job with the company that I retired from (6 years ago) a few months back and everyone was looking to a kid with 2.5 years experience as the lead hand.  Basically every word out of his mouth was wrong, but they were all proclaimed as though they were written in stone.  His proclamations absolutely lacked any kind of operational sense at all and he required my PSV project to include some totally non-credible scenarios.  When I told him that he might want to reconsider, I was told that if I wouldn't do it his way then he would find someone who would.  So I added a column in the final table that was the "recommended" PSV using his technique in addition to my actual recommendations.  It went to his boss and they're following my recommendations and he's told me that I have just finished the last job I would ever do for that operation.

This guy is typical of the generation who followed the Engineers who got hired in 1975-1985.  Jobs were very scarce from 1985 to 2003 and there is a real shortage of Engineering Graduates (at least in Oil & Gas) from that period.  Consequently when my generation is all gone the people who were hired in 2003 to now get real responsibility before they are ready, and are pretty sure that they have been endowed with the sun-source of all knowledge.  I see a lot of bad Engineers in my practice--most of whom might have been very good or excellent if they had been spanked as new-Engineers instead of getting authority before they were prepared to listen ("hire teenagers while they still know everything").

David

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

3
I don't think that the same paradigms exist today.  Being a "Master" imply YEARS of doing the SAME THING, to the point of becoming the master expert.  People and companies don't do that anymore.  That's the reason why hundred-yr-old companies like Montgomery Ward went out of business; they were doing the same thing for a hundred years and made no progression to the next stage of marketing and sales.  Overspecialization will obsolete you faster than the lifetime of a fruit fly.

While there might be some utility in becoming the goto-guy for cast iron, to be only conversant in cast iron is a kiss of death; any change in the marketplace and you're history.  The market is now about agility and adaptation to current conditions.  This invariably results in engineers that are never at the end of the learning curve.

That's pretty much been the case for the last 20 yrs.  Defense developments look totally different than they did even 5 yrs ago.  What was perfectly fine for nearly 20 yrs is now obsolete; different materials, different sensors, different control strategies, different SWAP, etc., all conspire to force the engineer to be constantly learning new things, but, only to the degree necessary to get the next product out.

You will need to find a new mindset; the reality you are looking for hasn't really existed in more than 20 yrs.  Personally, I think that's great.  Isn't it better to be learning new things, rather than doing the same thing, over and over again?

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

2
This is dependent on the discipline of engineering, Structural engineering has not changed as radically as other disciplines in the not to distant past. Thus you still have the same knowledge base. Training of junior engineer's is still considered nessarcy plus we still have some old hats hanging around passing on much needed advice and direction.

However, this all depends on your firm; I have noticed the old hats hanging around manly work for the smaller companies. Generally, the larger companies have a few very good experts but not a lot of mid-level "get the basic job done" engineers. I think is because they moved out and started on there own.  

When in doubt, just take the next small step.
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

IRstuff,

Your opinion isn't wrong, but it is wrong in some industries. The power industry, in common with O&G I suspect, is a mature industry with established ways of doing things which have been developed over many years through a combination of ongoing research and learning from costly mistakes. Most of the big changes have come from mistakes. To casually throw away that experience and concentrate on new ways of doing things will lead to the mistakes of previous decades being repeated. Nowhere is this more apparent than the proposed new generation of nuclear new build in the UK. All the senior guys from the previous build program are retired or dead, and even the office juniors will be approaching retirement: so much expertise lost.

I agree with almost every word David posted: suddenly I am one of the 'old guys' by virtue of there being a generation-long failure to recruit in  my industry. I'm not ready to be one of the old guys: they learned their skills in a very different environment of a nationalised industry, where the experts spent a career mastering their field, and where research was carried out in-house. Most of them have forgotten more about power generation than I know. That resource is all but gone now, and as an industry we've limped along living on the work done 30 years ago and supported by one-man-band consultants who learned their skills in the old industry. There are still just about enough of them to keep us going but in ten years we will be in trouble.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I think this is a symptom of management being more (monetarily) appreciated than technical experts. Those that finally master their art are usually put in managerial positions where they use only a small portion of it.

I prefer to work for engineers as managers but I think it is wrong that you are almost seen as a failure if you have been an engineer for 20 years and are still designing things.

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Maste




Master? I am here. I outlived all the others.












r

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

The reason for most of this chaos is big companies getting rid of engineering staffs and then contracting it out.  Basically they cut their own throats, because some bean counter made a calculation stating that it is cheaper to outsource engineering.  I seen it a lot during the late 80's thru the 90's.

Then when they realize the cost latter they change their mind and your seeing the result.

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Yes there is a business profitability matrix that divides revenue by permanent staff - contract staff are a way of fiddling the books on this matrix.

The more I learn about business management theory the more I think of it as a form of psuedo science!

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I've been at this quite a while and haven't mastered anything.  There's always learning to do- and un-learning as well.  But I hear where you're coming from!  

There once was a process of junior people being brought in as fresh grads, developed and mentored, and given a tour in a bunch of different departments so they could truly understand the full implications of their work.  That process is more or less dead.  It died with the down-sizing, out-sourcing, contract employee mindset that accompanied the bean counters' rise to power.

When engineers were truly scarce because our universities couldn't educate enough of them to meet industry's needs, engineers were valuable in a business sense- even the fresh grads.  They were worth investing the time and effort to train them, mentor them etc.  With only 1/3 of Canadian engineering grads going on to work as engineers, nobody can persuade me that there aren't enough engineers around.  The over-supplied labour market got the employers convinced that they could hire on contract what they needed, then lay off people when lean times came, and still have a viable business model.  I think you're observing one of the many unintended consequences of these business decisions.   

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Pseudo Science?  I don't think so.  I think it is a Pseudo Management con game with meaningles equations.

The years I worked for a big company I saw each new generation of PhD moron's from Stanford, Chicago, Harvard, and other big name Business Schools come up with a "new" management theory that had all the appearance of science (complex Partial Differential Equations and all) with 40 pages of assumptions to get to a closed-form solution to equations that purportedly describe human behaviour.  Every single one of these hair brained ideas that our management adopted was later discredited (but the PhD idiots kept their credentials).  

Remember when the guy from University of Chicago claimed that business should focus on "Core Competencies" and contract out everything else?  This led to the idea that light-construction was not a Core Competency of the Oil & Gas business and every major Oil company sold their roustabout trucks.  25 years later we're learning that the light construction was the industry's training ground for lease operators and production foremen and the generation of pumpers who didn't go through 6-months to 2-years on a roustabout truck didn't know how anything was put together and were unable to trouble-shoot a problem.  

Same with Drilling, same with Facilities Engineering, same with everything except Production Engineering and Reservoir Engineering.  This "core competency" fiasco caused the industry to fire 95% of Administrative Analysts and stop doing little things like contract surveillance, regulatory reporting, and (to a large extent) materials management--the outcome has been the loss of billions in revenue because no one is watching to see that contract terms are met or that materials are properly used.

This "latest management theory" approach to business management is much like technical trading on Wall Street or its close cousin "systems" for beating the odds in Las Vegas.  These fools will simply not realize that the last roll of the dice has no bearing on the next roll of the dice.

It is not "Pseudo" or any other type of Science, it is a Ponzi scheme that Bernie Madoff would have been proud of had he thought of it first.

David

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

A star for you David, no technical company should be run by people who have no understanding of how things work. This is why I havent worked much for big businesses.

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Star for you, David. Simply because you described my situation to a tee. We're all about "Core Competancies", at my company right now... and it's killing us.

V

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

2
Every time I talk about this I sound like a denizen of Jurassic Park.

Time was when the normal progression of things was to promote managers from the shop floors and the engineering offices.  These guys might not have made the optimum management staff, but they knew about the work and what it took to get it out the door.

Somewhere in the last couple of decades somebody decided that managers needed a "management" degree and that a "manager" could magically make good things happen in an engineering and design house just the same as a teddy bear factory or an oil refinery.  

Knowledge of people and processes and technology was immaterial to the "management" process, and if "managers" were that portable, then so were engineers and technicians.  Experience was no longer of consequence, credentials were.

I don't think we're better off for it all.

old field guy

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I worked for the company that bought the Tennoco Production Company properties in the San Juan Basin.  Tennoco is the case study for not knowing what business you are in that all the the PhD's cite as an argument for core competencies.  A couple of years before they sold out, they bought a tractor company because "a good manager can manage anything".  So you have all these Oil & Gas yahoo's climbing all over the tractor company, trying to make it look like an Oil & Gas production company and milking their cash cow (the San Juan Basin gas field) to keep the horribly managed tractor company afloat.  That fiasco in about 1989 is the example that the stinking management consultants twist to get companies to focus on "core competencies".  

I agree that an Oil & Gas company has no business running a tractor factory, but on the other hand if you are willing to contract out the design and execution of drilling, log-suite selection and interpretation, completion, and stimulation of oil & gas wells then what business ARE you in?  I always said the the end game for BP was to downsize from 150,000 employees to a CEO, 300 lawyers, 5 pilots for the corporate jets, and 500 administrative assistants/secretaries.

When I started (back before the dinosaurs were done becoming oil), a Production Engineer was expected to pick the location of a well, work with company drillers to design the drilling activity, specify the log suite, interpret the log, pick the completion interval, and design the stimulation.  Some time in the 90's they started calling the service companies (Schlumberger, Halliburton, etc) to get the logging, completion, and stimulation procedures done for them.  At that time the service companies had a world of experience and had individuals that could accomplish these tasks with a high level of expertise.  Sometime in the last 10 years all of THOSE grey hairs retired and the new guys still provide the service, but they use a Xerox machine instead of Engineering Judgement.  My driller friends laugh about the service company procedures that have you running a log to 14,000 ft in a 3,000 ft well.  The company engineers have drifted into Project Management roles and can't be bothered to review the procedures before they sign them.

The process just keeps getting dumber and dumber.

David

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Cost toward training is number that can be easily measured.  Losses and costs due to lower productivity due to a lack of training is not so easily measured.  

I worked as a mechanical designer/CAD operator (contract of course, 3.5 years) and the supervisor we had, had no experience with the CAD software we were using or the actual job we did.  

At another job, the "Director" of engineering (there were no managers or supervisors underneath him) had only been in his position for less than a year (prior to that he was a project engineer and technical support for sales)

It's hard to become an expert of anything these days when there are so many layoffs and outsourcing that forces you to have to consider "starting over" in a new company with a different product and new or different responsibilities.  The incentives to stay at a company and develop an expertise are becoming fewer and fewer.

The bottom line is what counts these days in ANY bussines, hospitals included.

The glass is operating at 50% capacity.

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

It's not a question of casualness, or impetuosity, or whim.  In aerospace/defense, aluminum, or something similar, has been the mainstay of structure design for decades.  That was all well and good when the platforms carrying this stuff were USS Missouri and the like.  Now, we're looking at a 40 lb UAV carrying a 5 lb payload, that has certain functional requirements.  

This now calls for aluminum beryllium alloys, or engineered polymers.  So, all of a sudden, every vendor that we've dealt with for decades are no longer applicable, and a completely new set of vendors need to be worked out, as well as the design groundrules.  With engineered polymers, the range of performance needs to be matched with the material mix, how much glass-fill, or should it be carbon-fill, or something else entirely.  Moisture retention, UV resistance, and may other factors were never a problem with aluminum, but are a major problem with polymers.  So, all of our "experts" in aluminum structures are now noobies in polymer-based design.  And, obviously, we don't outsource outside of the country.

Boeing is going through something similar with its latest planes, that, likewise, have converted major portions of the structure from aluminum, or titanium, to composites.  Everyone is suddenly a noobie there, as well.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Like I said before, there are different problems in different industries. Your experts have been overtaken by the advance of technology; in power our experts have been overtaken by Old Man Time. The technology of the big bits of plant hasn't changed much since the 1960s, but the people who were experts have all gone. The skills of yesteryear, the ones which our universities and colleges and companies don't teach anymore, would serve the modern power industry very well today, far far better than some degree found on the side of a cereal box or an MBA purchased online.

One of my favourite interview questions of recent times is 'Explain the basics of how a car engine works'. The number of supposedly well-educated engineers who can't tell me is startling. One even asked if I realised he was an electrical engineer! They have lots of paper bearing their name and some impressive-sounding qualifications but they are no use to me if they don't have any feel for how things work.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

What I find particularly entertaining is seeing one of our old grey-heads retire, then show up a few weeks later as a contractor providing the knowledge he took with him when he left because the company wouldn't foot the bill to put a junior guy working with him to learn some of what he knew...

old field guy

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

(OP)
Thank you all for your extremely diverse and valuable feedback! It is fascinating to hear real engineers account for the progression and struggles of the trade. However, I would be lying if I said that your posts did not make this young engineer nervous of the future. In any event, I plan to persevere.

In hope of stirring up further conversation, I would like to expand a little on my original frustrations.

Lack of Training:

In addition to the unwillingness to train, I have noticed that employers often expect an engineer to train oneself. I often educate myself on my personal time, but I do not feel that I am obligated to do so. Instead, I simply realize that it is in my best interest to further educate myself and above all, I enjoy it. However, I cannot stand to see an engineer's good nature or inherent curiosity being exploited. With that being said, is anyone actually given the time to learn "on the job?" Do most people develop their analytical and technical skills on their own time? It seems to me that everyone wants these pretty FEA plots, but no one wants to take the time to learn how to create them properly (or compare them to manual or experimental results). I truly believe that most people think FEA replaces the need for fundamental analytical skills and knowledge. Scary.

Lack of Quality:

At my workplace, I have been condemned (perhaps with reason) as a perfectionist – for the better or the worse. I admit, I have been known to make a project out of things from time to time, but nonetheless, I feel that few people these days value quality. I have been labeled as "good, but slow" because I take the time to do things right and clean up other peoples mistakes. I believe that others simply appear to work "fast" because they are not doing their jobs completely. Instead, they leave out important details that will become someone else's problem. I have been "someone else." Therefore, I feel that it is my duty to be thorough with my work because I know better. Does anyone else have this problem? Of course, I do accept the fact that it very well might just be me. In that case, I am open to a reality check.

Thank you!
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

"With that being said, is anyone actually given the time to learn "on the job?" Do most people develop their analytical and technical skills on their own time? It seems to me that everyone wants these pretty FEA plots, but no one wants to take the time to learn how to create them properly"

Yes. In my previous job I booked two hours per fortnight in my calendar to training, defined what my aims were going to be for the year (agreed with my supervisor), and did it, eg learn simulink and develop a filter set and application for a specific purpose that we needed. Sadly I left before the implementation phase, but the idea was there.
 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I "force" my graduate engineers to do on the job learning; only way they can ever get to a point of being helpful. I normally do a deal, they must do 2hrs on the job training per week, learning about concepts that I nominate/mentor them on, we are currently compatibility torsion after just finishing plastic/elastic analysis v's plastic/elastic sections. I find these to be great topics but you would be surprised how often they would prefer to work on a job then spend 2 hrs studying, hence the forcing part.

I would not be too concerned about being called perfectionist, once you get the experience under your belt you will get faster and have fewer mistakes than others, so preserver ahead.  As for you colleges leaving out info for "someone else", that is there choice, and in good time it will catch-up with them.
 

When in doubt, just take the next small step.
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

One thing I notice though amoung all your statements, to which i give alot of credit by the way, is that the master tradesman you're all looking for may not be as far as you think, as there is alot of competence amid people in this forum.

If you are like me, you probably feel lower than those people you started to work with and who where your model or mentor, whatever you wanna call them. But let be realistic, just look at how many stars you give here each week to your fellow comrades, how many problems get a solution every day, how curious you are but also eager to help.

Gentlemen, I do not believe the master tradesman are dead. I agree that some people don't deserve this title, beginning by myself, but some deserve it for sure and some will deserve it with time.

YOU guys are the actual tradesman.

I may be too optimistic, but let think about it anyway smile

Cyril Guichard
Defense Program Manager
Belgium

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Cyril-

Perhaps you're correct, but I'd like to have a just a bit of help carrying the load in this office...

old field guy

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

"Boeing is going through something similar with its latest planes, that, likewise, have converted major portions of the structure from aluminum, or titanium, to composites.  Everyone is suddenly a noobie there, as well."


I don't really get a warm fuzzy from this trend.

a link, which I am sure is not news to anyone here.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/boeingaerospace/2009565319_boeing30.html

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

But, that is all part of the learning process by which those wing designers become the "gray beards," (partly because of the "stress" induced by this type of problem).

Whenever new technologies occur, and they must occur here to meet the ever growing demand for air travel using ever more expensive fuel, people adapt old theories, or form new theories, and some theories wind up being not correct.  One hundred years ago, the Wright brothers flew their motorized kite, and survived, but plenty of others died or were injured on the path to the Dreamliner.  The fact that they've caught the error before actually flying passengers is actually a testament to care and expertise of the engineers and techs that designed and built the plane.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Of course the system "worked" in the since the deficiencies in the structure were identified, but according to the article,(unless I read it wrong) there are already ten of these things built. Is this a case of "getting it to market" expediency overriding engineering decisions?

or is it Hubris?

ever read the Neville Shute novel,  
"No Highway" (1948) ISBN 1-84232-273-7 ?

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Sure, but it's still a learning process, where they did something that was never done by them before, and the fact that the wings failed well below their design limits indicates that something was not correctly modeled in the stress analysis.

While it's an expensive lesson, it's a lesson, nonetheless, and the engineers involved will become the experts of the future.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I was lucky in my first two jobs as an engineer to be able to work with older engineers who were master-tradesmen. One in machining, the other in tool design. The first never earned a college degree, but any company would look at his career and consider the lack of a degree to be minor issue. The other was an industrial engineer who fell into tool design because no one else wanted to do it.

After those experiences I find myself back in school learning as much as I can about metal working from yet another master. Plus I am building a hobby machine shop at my house so I can gain more experience.

I don't want to be an engineer who sits at a desk and throws designs over the wall.  

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Machining some metal is DEFINITELY NOT Engineering.
Type Engineering in google.....

peace
Fe

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Figuring out _how_ to machine a part well, or fast, or in some cases at all, IS engineering.  Only some of that comes out of books.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I agree, however the implication was the actual act of doing the machining.  

peace
Fe

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I have a friend who insists he is an Engineer because he work as an aircraft engine assembly technician. ie he disassembles jet engines, sends our any parts for testing, replacment or repair as required by the service manual then reassembles exactly how the book says.

Next thing people who shop at Ikea will call themselves engineers because they assembled a coffee table.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Pat, I would give you 2 stars if I could.
 

peace
Fe

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I have a neighbor that hits the run button on a machine to make thousands of parts a day. He insists he's a 'manufacturing engineer'. I let him have his fun.

Chris
SolidWorks 09, CATIA V5
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

The annoying part with my friend is he argues the point with design when we are building things.

For example, he insisted that the thrust axis from a propeller on a boat was determined by where the bolts were placed not on the shaft angle.

I even demonstrated that changing the trim angle on an outboard motor changed the trim of the hull although the bolts were not moved. He was not convinced.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I know a guy who is a "Senior Engineer" because that is what Qwest prints on his business card.  He pulls cable for a living.

David

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

rowingengineer, I sure wish I had a boss like you in my first job.  I had a boss who expected me, fresh out of college, to just "know" everything about how to run an entire project - site visits, complete construction documents, not just the structural design.  of course there was little to no feedback on the work I did, so I learned little from that job.

thank goodness my subsequent jobs have had a master or two...

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

There's a lot to be said about taking charge as a young engineer.  If you really want to learn something you have to be proactive about it and always inquisitive.  If you don't ask the questions you'll never get a proper answer for anything.

I've never waited for management to bring forward the opportunity for training or learning.  I usually bring it up, and I'm always questioning everything I see.  Truly the knowledge is there for the taking if you just know where to look, and who to ask.

Now if you're in a position where there's nobody to ask, and management shoots down any chance of training... well I guess you're up a creek without a paddle.

James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

zdas--

I was one of those.  "Senior field engineer" was the title they had to hang on me in order to put me in the pay range I demanded when they hired me.

Was a neat and impressive title to the uninformed, but rather embarrassing when I had to deal with some REAL and very impressive engineers in the industry.

old field guy

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I didn't know you could do that. I mean where I come from if you put Engineer on you business card and you are not a real engineer it's a big deal. You can be sued 50 grand.
(but this is off topic)

peace
Fe

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

He was a nice guy and seemed to know a lot about pulling wire, but he glazed over when I asked how hard he could pull on it before it broke or how many conversations could take place concurrently.  Good worker, not an engineer.

FeX32,
Each jurisdiction is different, but most have weasel words in the regs to allow things like the phone company's "Field Engineer" and the Microsoft "Applications Engineer" (spelled "programmer everywhere else).  But you're right it is another topic.

David

 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Not to further dilute the discussion, but most states have "industrial exemptions" for actual engineers who are not required to be licensed.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

All of the states I've looked at (maybe 20 states) have the industrial exemption, but all of these have language that says that those guys can't have the word "engineer" on their business cards or letterhead because it constitutes "holding yourself out to the public as an Engineer".  It isn't right, but it is the law in those states.  

In the 90's, one state got horsey about this and threatened to fine companies if their logo was on a business card with the word "Engineer" that wasn't a P.E.  It was really unclear if they had jurisdiction over the companies (since the companies didn't have the word "Engineer" in the registered name) and I think it fizzled after a few nasty letters.

David

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

California's PE law only specifically addresses civil, electrical, and mechanical engineers, and "engineer" only in the context of "licensed," "professional," "register," or "consulting."

 

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

The company that hired me was nationwide in its scope, with corporate headquarters in California.  One would suppose that they were cognizant of laws that would have precluded the use of the title on non-degreed persons.

As for me, I didn't care what they called me, as long as the money was right.  They couldn't fit "very well qualified and experienced high voltage power systems technologist" on the card.

I have spent a significant portion of my career tiptoeing around, saying "I'm not an electrical engineer, but THIS is wrong..." and smiling...

old field guy

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

OFG,

Do you remember the Budweiser advert with the frogs from about 15 years ago? "I'm no electrician..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3mXaATLeRM

About 1m 45s into the video.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Currently in Queensland they are cracking down on who can advertise as engineers, and also cracking down on non-registered engineers giving engineering advice. This is having a big effect on the university research teams.

I know of a few companies that had to reprint business cards because of it.

slta,
Be careful what you wish for!



 

When in doubt, just take the next small step.
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Hmmm...I have to agree with what IRstuff post way back this morning "The market is now about agility and adaptation to current conditions.  This invariably results in engineers that are never at the end of the learning curve.", but let me expand on this thought.

In today's economy, there are two kinds of engineers that I see general and specialized.  The general engineer will learn and do just enough to get the project done and out the door.  These types of engineers have a "broad" knowledge of ideas and methods and most likely keep their jobs in a down economy or find another job quicker because of there vast repertoire.  However, their salary would be on the lower end.  

The flip side (and maybe you can consider them the "master tradesmen") are the specialized engineer.  They are specialized in one or few things.  They have a "depth" of knowledge.  These are the people you call in when the general engineer is stuck and need more specialized engineering knowledge to fix the problem.  However, these engineers will be the first to go in a down economy and will take longer to find a job because their repertoire is limited.  But, the plus side is that they will enjoy the hire pay scale compared to the general engineer.  

Now, in today's economy, it is smarter for an individual to be the general engineer.  Is this bad?  I don't think so.  It is the survival of the fittest.  If one company goes down, a general engineer will have a wider skill set to transfer over to another industry or company.  The master tradesmen (specialized engineer) would not.

To find specialized engineers, I tend to think that they would be in the larger companies than the small ones.  If you are engineer in a small company, I guess you tend to wear many hats (which makes you a general engineer) and not have the luxury of having access to specialized engineers.  However, in larger companies with many programs running in tandem, a specialized engineer can jump from one program to another as needed.  

So to answer the OP, you would find more "master tradesmen" in larger engineering companies.  I myself is considered a specialized engineer and I work with other specialized engineers who help me advance my knowledge of engineering, however, in a very narrow field.

 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Some of the discussion above relates to preserving the term "engineer" for professionals.  I don't get too excited about it, but if we want to do that, we should not refer to engineers as master "tradesmen".  To me a tradesman is a carpenter, plumber, electrician, boilermaker.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradesman

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Those of us who prepare drawings, specifications and other contract documents can think of ourselves as tradesmen when we craft these items whether one is a general engineer or a specialist.  Often the quality of drawings and specifications is sorely lacking, based on my experience reviewing such documents prepared by our own in-house engineers as well as outside consultants.  Recent viewpoints written by steel detailers in Modern Steel Construction magazine echo this experience.

This is about communicating designs to others in a clear, unambiguous manner, but it is also about having a quality design.  It involves taking the time think things through up front, which actually saves time in the long run.  It often comes down to simply remembering to put you pants on before you put your shoes on.  The more you work at it, the more you will remember to do this, and eventually you will become a "master tradesman."

Stick your guns, Curiousmechanical.



   

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I would never put "master tradesman" on my business card......  

When in doubt, just take the next small step.
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Master tradesman and engineer are not mutually exclusive.

There are many non professionally qualified but good engineers out there, however I think you need to be more than just an assembler of parts according to strict instructions to be considered an engineer. To be an engineer you need to be able to understand how things work and be able to use that knowledge to create or build things that work without depending unduly on luck or ridiculous over design.

If my previous comments lead anyone to believe that one must have an engineering degree and be certified by a professional association to be an engineer, that most certainly was not my intent.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I work for a power company where many of the older guys are retiring.  I was told that during the old days you had enough expertise in the engineering group that a they could design, build, and operate a power plant.  Now just about all design work is outsourced.  I am a mechanical engineer and do general process engineering and troubleshooting.  If a pump fails, find out why.  If has to be repaired, I run the project of repairing it.  Many of the older guys are retiring and few people really understand how a power plant operates.  

A lot of my job is spent troubleshooting problems and assisting with repairs, but it does not seem like there is a very hard drive from upper management to really get to the root of a problem.  Most of the time these investigations require detailed monitoring and inspections and management doesn't really want to invest much time and money into it, especially if that means derating the unit.  

And training is a joke.  There isn't any solid detailed training program.  You basically learn on the job.  Most of the time we get by okay.  The company just doesn't want to spend the money on training.  As long as the units are running and making money, management is okay.  They aren't doing much of anything about all of the tribal knowledge that will be lost with all of the upcoming retirements.

 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Top management today mostly comes out of business schools.

Which is not in and of itself a bad thing, but business schools don't cover agrarian subjects, including such basic concepts as not eating your seed corn.

The same Professional Managers (I use that as a pejorative in this context) are everywhere in the USA, so you can't escape them by changing companies or industries.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

curiousmechanical, are you my alter ego?

I swear I had similar thoughts/conversations with one of my friends from Uni a few years after entering industry.  I was in a defence company he worked for the government in defence.  We both bemoaned the promotion of inexperienced folks to project management, including ourselves.

Look around you, when you do find someone experienced learn from them what you can.  I was fortunate to work alongside some very experienced folks my first few years, but there was little formal training or mentorship.  However, every now and then one of them would take me under his wing and show me something.  I owe a lot to Tony, Tony, Ray, Rob and Roger and probably a couple of others I forget to mention.  You can still learn something from people that suck - what not to do!

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Most of the plant managers used to be engineers are a familiar with how the power plants work but their job is to make sure the plant not only reliable, but profitable.  That means spending as little money as possible while maintaining reliability.  Most of the time poor technical decisions are made in order to satisfy the company earnings requirements.   

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

(OP)
Hello Everyone,

Once again, thank you all for your continued feedback and comments!

hokie66:

You are correct. I probably should have used the term "master engineer," instead of "master tradesman." I think I was stuck in the mindset of the apprentice/master craftsman comparison.

Twoballcane:

Thank you very much for your breakdown of the two common types of engineers! It was very enlightening. Based on your descriptions, I am definitively working in the "general engineering" environment. I often here the figure of speech: "jack of all trades, master of none." This may be the root of my problem.

I enjoy getting deeply involved in a problem or subject and fully understanding it. I hate just "plugging and chugging" without having any confidence in what I am doing or the results that I get (that goes for FEA and manual analysis). However, that seems to be what most people do at my company because there is so much pressure to just get the job out of the building. Everything seems to be done haphazardly. People are forced to work fast, not smart.

In school, I enjoyed the more in-depth subjects and heavy level math used to solve difficult problems. I often wonder if I should pursue a more specialized career. I suppose that I am somewhat reluctant to do so for the reasons that you have outlined (and others); the fear of picking the wrong (one that I may lose interest in) specialty or becoming obsolete as technology and trends change. I guess this is a hard, but necessary decision that every engineer has to make in their career. Either, that or I guess I could pursue a career in academia. While not knowing any better, this sounds like an attractive alternative!

Thanks again!
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Don't be beguiled by the promise of greener pastures, or utopia, or whatever.  Anything human, is always human, which means that there is always something going on.  Academia is rife with issues about publish/perish, tenure, office politics, etc.  Do not think that there are no issues with quality of education, as there are many, as you have alluded to yourself.  Moreover, it's the same; learn on the job.  They don't train you to be a professor, or to teach; that's why there are so many sucky profs.

Life is not about finding the utopia, it's about making your own utopia out of whatever life deals you.  As spoken by the master actor himself, "Captain Kirk, have you ever read Milton?"  Kirk responds, "Yes. I understand. ... The statement Lucifer made when he fell into the pit: "It is better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.""

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I also work in power and we too are hemmoraging the old guys.  But IRstuff has a good point.  The engineering world has always had its human frailties.  Dagny in "Atlas Shrugged" bemoans the lack of good engineers to design and build her new railroad line, and that was written in the 1950s.   

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I think this thread could just as easily been why are teenagers so unruly these days? We all tend to see the past through rose coloured glasses.

Certainly things have changed, technology is moving at a pace that only the Industrial revolution and WW2 came close to creating and look at the side issues with them. People travel more these days and a job for life is a thing of the past. Is someone with 45 years experience in one field now seen as a master or a dinosaur with 4.5 years experience 10 times over?

People's expectations are far greater and generally formal education is rated above experience, not sure if that is good or bad.

Still when you look at some of the structures being built, be they buildings, bridges, tunnels etc, the progress in air travel and space travel, the type of cars we all drive, the progress in micro-biology, robotics, computer software and hardware and many other disciplines are we really getting it that wrong?

Things are different now to they were in the past and I am sure they will change in the future, but there are now as there always were and always will be good, bad and average in all walks of life.
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Pat P--

"If my previous comments lead anyone to believe that one must have an engineering degree and be certified by a professional association to be an engineer, that most certainly was not my intent."

Thanks, buddy...  I resemble that remark.

old field guy

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Before I get into my comments I want to say that I really enjoyed these postings and was interested in seeing that these problems affect the many different engineering disciplines.

I have been doing structural engineering of buildings and structures for 36+ years, ranging from single family residential to mid-rise hotels and office buildings to mining and manufacturing facilities.  Both with greenfield projects and the renovation of existing buildings.

Entering the workforce with a BS degree I felt that there was so much that I did not know.  My first job was with a small commercial building consulting firm and the Owner and the senior engineer mentored me through the design process and drawing preparation requirements.  I would not be the engineer I am today without them.  One real eye-opener was my first annual review where I learned how my inefficincies affected the bottom line on projects I was associated with.


My first job change was to a design-build industrial contractor.  The structural department in our branch office had about 30 people.  For my first assignment I was teamed with the most senior drafter.  It was never said, but I was sure that he was asked to report on my abilities.  We never worked together again.  I moved onto the mid-level drafters and eventually to the new hires.  That system seemed to work very well for everyone as new employees were introduced to the companies standards and methodology by the people they were directly working with.

Subsequent jobs allowed me to be project manager and structural engineer of record for numerous building projects.  I completed a MS degree later in my career as part of my plan to stay current.


Fast forward to my present job with a medium sized industry specific consulting firm.  On a current project, a young CAD drafter with a 2-yr technical degree and less than 2 yrs of experience ignores my directives and develops the drawings as he thinks they should be.  Granted he knows CAD better than I do, but he is a novice when it comes to preparing construction documents.  I find it hard to believe that so much practical knowledge can be imparted directly through any college program.

I just can't imagine working for an engineering supervisor with that level of experience, and probably even more confidence.

 

GJC
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I wonder if part of the issue has to do with separating engineering from the others involved in a project?

You can learn to determine the deflection of a platform using theory in school. However, if you are 50 feet in the air on a platform, you realize how important a 1/2" deflection is, even if the stresses are nowhere near a failure.

I have learned a lot from getting my hands dirty. Do any of you who have been in engineering longer feel that engineer's hands are cleaner than in the past?

-- MechEng2005

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Getting your hands dirty?

As a controls engineer I have the problem of always being the last person onsite.  Sometimes coming to the conclusion that its really a mechanical problem.  Point is when I have determined that the mechanical engineer should make a visit, it takes an Act of God to get that mechanical engineer out in the field.

So as far as my point of view I think the mechanical engineers never seems to get there hands dirty.  Just my biased opinion.  Yes, I do get my hands more dirty being last onsite on startups.

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I think that is the point of the labs and senior design projects that you would have as an undergrad. This was to teach you to mix your theory with the real world.  You should continue this practice once you get into the real world.  My job is analysis, but I temper that with doing test.  You really get an appreciation especially when something fails.  

I do feel it is up to the individual.  Funny enough, there are mechanicals that are not mechanically inclined, but yet design mechanical equipment.  I guess like electricals who are not good at soldering electronics together, but yet they design CCAs.  So I guess if the person is more mechanically inclined, these are the people who may appreciate getting their hands dirty to get a better understanding of their design.
 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

In many cases, soldering, even if you wanted to, isn't an option, since the assemblers need to be certified to do the work.  Moreover, even then, I wouldn't be able do most of the soldering because I can't even resolve the leads without mondo magnifiers.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I sometimes wonder if the hands on thing doesn't get exagerated, there are so many processes etc. that to have mastered all of them would make you 50+ before you started.

Plus fundamental aptitude as IRstuff says, I have fat fingers and the shakes, manipulating some of the small stuff we have here is a night mare for me.  However the dextrous production staff down stairs etc. do this just fine.  Does this mean I shouldnt' ever spec a screw smaller than about #6.  Obviously it is a warning that it may be a bit fiddly but ruling it our completely because I can't do it is OTT.

Things like welding & soldering are others, one thing to have a basic understanding and maybe do a little as a hobby etc. but expecting to be really good at all the combinations & variations, I doubt it.

Or maybe I suck more than I ever realized due to my relative lack of hands on experience, hmm...

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

If you don't go out in the field yourself, you can waste days trying to make sense of pressure data taken with liquid filled gages that still have the shipping plugs in the bodies, or Magnehelics with too many plugs in them, or stuff like that.  I.e., you have to _see_ the physical test apparatus, installed and operating.  

Sometimes, to do that, you have to do the wrenching and recording yourself, so the techs can go on a service call and bring in more money than it costs to have you out there.

I could do without installing an exhaust pressure tap while the turbo is spooling up, though.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

A while back, the union had a strike, so they had the engineers trained to do some of what they did.  For me, they sent me off for solder training in which I still have my certificate.  It made no sense to me why they picked a Mechanical to do soldering, but I went anyway, hey I soldered pipes for my pluming at home.  

MAN!!  There is a lot of finesse to doing this and I give the techs a node of appreciation.  Just to be hunched over a CCA and wielding a hot iron in one hand and a lead of solder in another and not burn the electronics while soldering takes an art form.  I was so glad that the strike ended before they sent me to the line.  QA would be having a fit!
 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

On my first pipeline job I did the design, Project Management, and On-site Supervision.  I only needed to do On-Site Supervision once, but I did need to do it once.  After that project I had On-site Supervisors that dealt with the ongoing logistics, but when they called and said "I'm out of Pipe" I was in a position to instruct them on: (1) why it was their job to make sure that the project never got held up by materials delivery; and (2) how to determine the who, what, when, and how of pipe delivery.  Had I not done the job once, some of these guys could have blown smoke up my pant legs and I wouldn't have known the difference.  

Also, my time in the mud made me able to design doglegs, leg-offs, and pigging facilities that both met the design criteria and were also "constructable".  If I hadn't seen the guys struggling with an awkward design it wouldn't be as important to me.

David

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I agree with those who say in effect, you don't need to be able to do the tradesmans or technicians job as a fully skilled operator, but you do need the experience of working in their environment, even if only as their laborer so you understand when they are blowing smoke and so you can avoid making their job more difficult than it needs to be and you can avoid extra costs in construction or maintenance by maybe investing a little more in design or materials for a net gain in final cost.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I did not intend to say that the valuable experience was from engineers being able to do all the work (including machining, welding, etc). I guess that's a risk of using a cliche ("getting your hands dirty").

However, in some things the field experience can be a much better teacher than sitting at a desk. A younger engineer once put anchors for a machine as close as possible to the machine. Good idea to try to not make the footprint unnecessarily large. However, after watching the installation contractor that couldn't put an drill the holes for the anchor bolt in straight because there wasn't enough clearance around the drill, it became apparent that maybe a little larger foot print is a minor issue.

I think a "master engineer" should design things that are as easy to build, install, etc. as possible. It's a lot easier to make things easier for others when you know how they do their job.

When I'm in the field, I personally do only minor hand-dirtying work. Maybe hold a small plate that needs to be welded while the welder tacks it on and that sort of thing. I haven't welded, but I certainly know the benefit of having locating pins for something that will be field welded and needs to be positioned at all accurately.

-- MechEng2005  

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I have three words that will help before you send to manufacturing or test...prototype, prototype, and prototype.  Once you actually put something together physically and move around it, things that you did not see in cad will be evident in the prototype.  Managment has always tried to drop this step to save money, but if I feel that we need one especialy if my name is on it to past some crazy thermal, vib, and shock requirment, I demand a prototype to be built for pre qual.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Twoball, my place is almosts opposite.  Our Engineering Director seems to think you build lots of prototypes and don't bother too much with trying to predict much in advance what will happen or avoid problems etc, just get to the prototype quickly.  So long as you learn something from each failure.  To me this takes you back to being just a tinkerer or inventor.

A big part of Engineering to me is to be able to at least partially predict how things behave in advance, to reduce (or in the case of things like buildings & bridges) eliminate prototypes (or whatever your industry calls them at different stages).

So I think you do spend a decent amount of time & effort up front using tools like analysis (both classical and CAE), CAD reference resources, experience of colleagues/consultants etc and then prototype.  

lus for one offs or even low volume stuff, prototypes aren't an always option.  Yes you can tweak the finished item from the nominal design but major changes are often out of the question.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Wow Kenat, I would run if your company is blindly designing with out the up front analysis.  I have been called into projects where they did not do the analysis first because in somebody's mind said "oh this shouldn't be to bad" (famous last words) and wonder why they fail at the shake and bake test.  And, this is where I get my bonuses.  My group comes in and we start to quantify the temperatures and dynamics.  I come up with the analysis and correlate with the data.  Then start tweaking the design by analysis (instead of tinkering around) to pass the test.  Once the mods are put in and the unit passes, the program manager is overjoyed.  Chaching another certificate of appreciation (with a nice dollar value) on the wall.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Oh also, one should only go up to two... three at most prototypes.  If more, then there are some serious design issues.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Twoballcane, don't tell me, I'm looking anyway.

Don't get me wrong, some of our self is cutting edge/on the limits of known physics so there you may not have a choice.  But making sure the parts fit together for instance seems fairly fundamental.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I like the guys that define "easy" as "someone else has to do it" and skip engineering altogether because it is a "simple problem".    And then they call some consultant to fix the mess and get mad because we can't solve the problem without doing the calculations that were skipped.

David

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

If I can give you another star zdas04 I would.  This is my bread and butter in my company where mangers start to think in this maner to save money, but at the end spend more and then have their fanny out for all to see.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

When it comes to the "bottom line", senior engineers are damned expensive and we don't put out as much volume as our junior counterparts.  Part of the reason is that we've recognized that haste makes waste; $100 spent in engineering can save $10k in scrap, rework, delays and administrative overhead down the road.  But that is proactive thinking that doesn't help TODAY's bottom line.

As a result, a significant chunk of many (most?) companies' knowledge base is culled as soon as the company doesn't meet its "projected" profit (even if a profit is still made).  

The end result is that seasoned engineers aren't around to take younglings under our wings as it were.  

Another consideration is that today's grads (not all, but a really good percentage) don't respect the knowledge of veteran engineers as it's "not what's in my textbook".  If it isn't published in the last 5 years, and it doesn't include high-res cad models, it's just too old to be of any value.

I'm just over 40, and I had the advantage of working for a small mold shop for a while before moving to a large company.  What I learned from the patience of senior designers and master mold makers was invaluable compared to what I learned of design from school.  

Some engineering regulatory bodies are starting to reconsider the value of formal mentors because of the downward trend, so we just may see an increased focus on developing post-academic education.

Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services  www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc.  www.tec-ease.com

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Oh but were that true.  The direction of NCEES is to require post-bachaloriate acedimic qualifications.  The revised model law that has been recenlty approved is going to require an MS before you can get a PE after (I think, not sure about the date) 2015.  I don't see anything in it to encourage mentoring.

David

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

OK, David, that's pretty bad; I'm going to have to call you on that:

post-bachaloriate acedimic

post-baccalaureate academic

SPELL CHECK!!!!

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

I usually do.  My phone rang as I finished typing. Attention span of a goldfish.  Apologies to all.

David

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

The NCEES sounds like it has lost contact with the real world. Most Grads in my opinion are very good fundamentally these days, know how to analysis anything to the S**t house. Unfortunately when it comes to the details, well they just don't know and this is the problem. Regrettably there is only two ways to learn 1.good mentoring, 2. experience. Even though I am not affected by the NCEES idea's I almost feel like writing a letter telling them how it is on the street.  

When in doubt, just take the next small step.
 

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

A lot of people have written them.  A lot of people have written to their state boards.  No progress that I can see.

The problem as I see it is that the people on the NCESS committee are a mix of academics who only know the public trough and people that companies feel they can do without for long enough to participate in NCEES committees.  Not terribly representative of industry.  Further, the committee is dominated by civil/structural types (just like the ranks of PE's) and MS degrees are more common in those fields than ME, EE, IE, etc. so they don't see what the fuss is all about.

David

RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?

Ah, so that's where the Canadian engineering associations got that notion from.  It's the opposite faction to those supporting the mentorship model.

Some senior engineers (up here) with impressive lists of accomplishments (though mostly without Master's or Doctorate's it seems) are now advocating Engineering as a Master's-level degree rather than just requiring a Bachelor's degree.  They seem to feel that grads aren't socially rounded enough to appropriately function.  It's also motivated in an attempt to raise our stature comparable to medical doctors and lawyers.  The fact is that we turn out too many engineering graduates (compared to those other professional-level programs) to be in a position where our services are publicly perceived to be as important as others.

We seem to have the same Civil-minded base up here too.  That's where I see the bulk of the membership and the bulk of the professional development offerings too.

Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services  www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc.  www.tec-ease.com

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources