Where are all of the master tradesman?
Where are all of the master tradesman?
(OP)
Hello Everyone,
Background:
I have been working as a mechanical design engineer at a small (<100 employees) OEM for a little over four years now. During this time, I have observed a disappointing trend and would like to hear other engineers' thoughts on the matter.
Description:
While in college, I imagined a working life analogous to that of any apprentice. I pictured a world filled with experienced tradesman - engineers who have mastered their skills after many years of experience. I was truly looking forward to working alongside such people and I was eager to learn all that I could.
Upon entering the workforce, I eventually learned that few engineers have actually mastered their trades. In fact, more shockingly, many seem to lack even the most basic fundamental knowledge and skills. I find this very disappointing. In addition, I have also noticed a trend of sloppy and poor workmanship.
Intermediate Questions:
Why have so few engineers mastered their trades? Why don't people care about quality? Why don't people seem to take pride in what they do?
Theories:
I have noticed that quality is a falsely claimed priority. Companies like to say that they "take pride in producing a quality product," but I have trouble believing them. Not when engineers are told "I don't care [that the design is incomplete or of poor quality] just release the drawings." Deadlines and managers pressure engineers to get work done as fast as possible. Quantity seems to be valued in the real world, not quality. Aside from self-respect, there is no incentive (or time) for an engineer to master his or her trade.
Closing Questions:
Is this lack of master tradesman common in engineering? Are there any environments where the quality workmanship of a master tradesman is valued over the high volume/sub par output of the average engineer?
Thank you for reading my rant! I look forward to reading your feedback!
Background:
I have been working as a mechanical design engineer at a small (<100 employees) OEM for a little over four years now. During this time, I have observed a disappointing trend and would like to hear other engineers' thoughts on the matter.
Description:
While in college, I imagined a working life analogous to that of any apprentice. I pictured a world filled with experienced tradesman - engineers who have mastered their skills after many years of experience. I was truly looking forward to working alongside such people and I was eager to learn all that I could.
Upon entering the workforce, I eventually learned that few engineers have actually mastered their trades. In fact, more shockingly, many seem to lack even the most basic fundamental knowledge and skills. I find this very disappointing. In addition, I have also noticed a trend of sloppy and poor workmanship.
Intermediate Questions:
Why have so few engineers mastered their trades? Why don't people care about quality? Why don't people seem to take pride in what they do?
Theories:
I have noticed that quality is a falsely claimed priority. Companies like to say that they "take pride in producing a quality product," but I have trouble believing them. Not when engineers are told "I don't care [that the design is incomplete or of poor quality] just release the drawings." Deadlines and managers pressure engineers to get work done as fast as possible. Quantity seems to be valued in the real world, not quality. Aside from self-respect, there is no incentive (or time) for an engineer to master his or her trade.
Closing Questions:
Is this lack of master tradesman common in engineering? Are there any environments where the quality workmanship of a master tradesman is valued over the high volume/sub par output of the average engineer?
Thank you for reading my rant! I look forward to reading your feedback!





RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
People have also become lazier, at least here in the US.
There are also a lot of engineers that don't have the knack or experience, only the college degree(s), to design or build products.
Chris
SolidWorks 09, CATIA V5
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I had a consulting job with the company that I retired from (6 years ago) a few months back and everyone was looking to a kid with 2.5 years experience as the lead hand. Basically every word out of his mouth was wrong, but they were all proclaimed as though they were written in stone. His proclamations absolutely lacked any kind of operational sense at all and he required my PSV project to include some totally non-credible scenarios. When I told him that he might want to reconsider, I was told that if I wouldn't do it his way then he would find someone who would. So I added a column in the final table that was the "recommended" PSV using his technique in addition to my actual recommendations. It went to his boss and they're following my recommendations and he's told me that I have just finished the last job I would ever do for that operation.
This guy is typical of the generation who followed the Engineers who got hired in 1975-1985. Jobs were very scarce from 1985 to 2003 and there is a real shortage of Engineering Graduates (at least in Oil & Gas) from that period. Consequently when my generation is all gone the people who were hired in 2003 to now get real responsibility before they are ready, and are pretty sure that they have been endowed with the sun-source of all knowledge. I see a lot of bad Engineers in my practice--most of whom might have been very good or excellent if they had been spanked as new-Engineers instead of getting authority before they were prepared to listen ("hire teenagers while they still know everything").
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
While there might be some utility in becoming the goto-guy for cast iron, to be only conversant in cast iron is a kiss of death; any change in the marketplace and you're history. The market is now about agility and adaptation to current conditions. This invariably results in engineers that are never at the end of the learning curve.
That's pretty much been the case for the last 20 yrs. Defense developments look totally different than they did even 5 yrs ago. What was perfectly fine for nearly 20 yrs is now obsolete; different materials, different sensors, different control strategies, different SWAP, etc., all conspire to force the engineer to be constantly learning new things, but, only to the degree necessary to get the next product out.
You will need to find a new mindset; the reality you are looking for hasn't really existed in more than 20 yrs. Personally, I think that's great. Isn't it better to be learning new things, rather than doing the same thing, over and over again?
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
However, this all depends on your firm; I have noticed the old hats hanging around manly work for the smaller companies. Generally, the larger companies have a few very good experts but not a lot of mid-level "get the basic job done" engineers. I think is because they moved out and started on there own.
When in doubt, just take the next small step.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Your opinion isn't wrong, but it is wrong in some industries. The power industry, in common with O&G I suspect, is a mature industry with established ways of doing things which have been developed over many years through a combination of ongoing research and learning from costly mistakes. Most of the big changes have come from mistakes. To casually throw away that experience and concentrate on new ways of doing things will lead to the mistakes of previous decades being repeated. Nowhere is this more apparent than the proposed new generation of nuclear new build in the UK. All the senior guys from the previous build program are retired or dead, and even the office juniors will be approaching retirement: so much expertise lost.
I agree with almost every word David posted: suddenly I am one of the 'old guys' by virtue of there being a generation-long failure to recruit in my industry. I'm not ready to be one of the old guys: they learned their skills in a very different environment of a nationalised industry, where the experts spent a career mastering their field, and where research was carried out in-house. Most of them have forgotten more about power generation than I know. That resource is all but gone now, and as an industry we've limped along living on the work done 30 years ago and supported by one-man-band consultants who learned their skills in the old industry. There are still just about enough of them to keep us going but in ten years we will be in trouble.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I prefer to work for engineers as managers but I think it is wrong that you are almost seen as a failure if you have been an engineer for 20 years and are still designing things.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Master? I am here. I outlived all the others.
r
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Then when they realize the cost latter they change their mind and your seeing the result.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
The more I learn about business management theory the more I think of it as a form of psuedo science!
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
There once was a process of junior people being brought in as fresh grads, developed and mentored, and given a tour in a bunch of different departments so they could truly understand the full implications of their work. That process is more or less dead. It died with the down-sizing, out-sourcing, contract employee mindset that accompanied the bean counters' rise to power.
When engineers were truly scarce because our universities couldn't educate enough of them to meet industry's needs, engineers were valuable in a business sense- even the fresh grads. They were worth investing the time and effort to train them, mentor them etc. With only 1/3 of Canadian engineering grads going on to work as engineers, nobody can persuade me that there aren't enough engineers around. The over-supplied labour market got the employers convinced that they could hire on contract what they needed, then lay off people when lean times came, and still have a viable business model. I think you're observing one of the many unintended consequences of these business decisions.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
The years I worked for a big company I saw each new generation of PhD moron's from Stanford, Chicago, Harvard, and other big name Business Schools come up with a "new" management theory that had all the appearance of science (complex Partial Differential Equations and all) with 40 pages of assumptions to get to a closed-form solution to equations that purportedly describe human behaviour. Every single one of these hair brained ideas that our management adopted was later discredited (but the PhD idiots kept their credentials).
Remember when the guy from University of Chicago claimed that business should focus on "Core Competencies" and contract out everything else? This led to the idea that light-construction was not a Core Competency of the Oil & Gas business and every major Oil company sold their roustabout trucks. 25 years later we're learning that the light construction was the industry's training ground for lease operators and production foremen and the generation of pumpers who didn't go through 6-months to 2-years on a roustabout truck didn't know how anything was put together and were unable to trouble-shoot a problem.
Same with Drilling, same with Facilities Engineering, same with everything except Production Engineering and Reservoir Engineering. This "core competency" fiasco caused the industry to fire 95% of Administrative Analysts and stop doing little things like contract surveillance, regulatory reporting, and (to a large extent) materials management--the outcome has been the loss of billions in revenue because no one is watching to see that contract terms are met or that materials are properly used.
This "latest management theory" approach to business management is much like technical trading on Wall Street or its close cousin "systems" for beating the odds in Las Vegas. These fools will simply not realize that the last roll of the dice has no bearing on the next roll of the dice.
It is not "Pseudo" or any other type of Science, it is a Ponzi scheme that Bernie Madoff would have been proud of had he thought of it first.
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
V
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Time was when the normal progression of things was to promote managers from the shop floors and the engineering offices. These guys might not have made the optimum management staff, but they knew about the work and what it took to get it out the door.
Somewhere in the last couple of decades somebody decided that managers needed a "management" degree and that a "manager" could magically make good things happen in an engineering and design house just the same as a teddy bear factory or an oil refinery.
Knowledge of people and processes and technology was immaterial to the "management" process, and if "managers" were that portable, then so were engineers and technicians. Experience was no longer of consequence, credentials were.
I don't think we're better off for it all.
old field guy
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I agree that an Oil & Gas company has no business running a tractor factory, but on the other hand if you are willing to contract out the design and execution of drilling, log-suite selection and interpretation, completion, and stimulation of oil & gas wells then what business ARE you in? I always said the the end game for BP was to downsize from 150,000 employees to a CEO, 300 lawyers, 5 pilots for the corporate jets, and 500 administrative assistants/secretaries.
When I started (back before the dinosaurs were done becoming oil), a Production Engineer was expected to pick the location of a well, work with company drillers to design the drilling activity, specify the log suite, interpret the log, pick the completion interval, and design the stimulation. Some time in the 90's they started calling the service companies (Schlumberger, Halliburton, etc) to get the logging, completion, and stimulation procedures done for them. At that time the service companies had a world of experience and had individuals that could accomplish these tasks with a high level of expertise. Sometime in the last 10 years all of THOSE grey hairs retired and the new guys still provide the service, but they use a Xerox machine instead of Engineering Judgement. My driller friends laugh about the service company procedures that have you running a log to 14,000 ft in a 3,000 ft well. The company engineers have drifted into Project Management roles and can't be bothered to review the procedures before they sign them.
The process just keeps getting dumber and dumber.
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I worked as a mechanical designer/CAD operator (contract of course, 3.5 years) and the supervisor we had, had no experience with the CAD software we were using or the actual job we did.
At another job, the "Director" of engineering (there were no managers or supervisors underneath him) had only been in his position for less than a year (prior to that he was a project engineer and technical support for sales)
It's hard to become an expert of anything these days when there are so many layoffs and outsourcing that forces you to have to consider "starting over" in a new company with a different product and new or different responsibilities. The incentives to stay at a company and develop an expertise are becoming fewer and fewer.
The bottom line is what counts these days in ANY bussines, hospitals included.
The glass is operating at 50% capacity.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
This now calls for aluminum beryllium alloys, or engineered polymers. So, all of a sudden, every vendor that we've dealt with for decades are no longer applicable, and a completely new set of vendors need to be worked out, as well as the design groundrules. With engineered polymers, the range of performance needs to be matched with the material mix, how much glass-fill, or should it be carbon-fill, or something else entirely. Moisture retention, UV resistance, and may other factors were never a problem with aluminum, but are a major problem with polymers. So, all of our "experts" in aluminum structures are now noobies in polymer-based design. And, obviously, we don't outsource outside of the country.
Boeing is going through something similar with its latest planes, that, likewise, have converted major portions of the structure from aluminum, or titanium, to composites. Everyone is suddenly a noobie there, as well.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
One of my favourite interview questions of recent times is 'Explain the basics of how a car engine works'. The number of supposedly well-educated engineers who can't tell me is startling. One even asked if I realised he was an electrical engineer! They have lots of paper bearing their name and some impressive-sounding qualifications but they are no use to me if they don't have any feel for how things work.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
old field guy
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
In hope of stirring up further conversation, I would like to expand a little on my original frustrations.
Lack of Training:
In addition to the unwillingness to train, I have noticed that employers often expect an engineer to train oneself. I often educate myself on my personal time, but I do not feel that I am obligated to do so. Instead, I simply realize that it is in my best interest to further educate myself and above all, I enjoy it. However, I cannot stand to see an engineer's good nature or inherent curiosity being exploited. With that being said, is anyone actually given the time to learn "on the job?" Do most people develop their analytical and technical skills on their own time? It seems to me that everyone wants these pretty FEA plots, but no one wants to take the time to learn how to create them properly (or compare them to manual or experimental results). I truly believe that most people think FEA replaces the need for fundamental analytical skills and knowledge. Scary.
Lack of Quality:
At my workplace, I have been condemned (perhaps with reason) as a perfectionist – for the better or the worse. I admit, I have been known to make a project out of things from time to time, but nonetheless, I feel that few people these days value quality. I have been labeled as "good, but slow" because I take the time to do things right and clean up other peoples mistakes. I believe that others simply appear to work "fast" because they are not doing their jobs completely. Instead, they leave out important details that will become someone else's problem. I have been "someone else." Therefore, I feel that it is my duty to be thorough with my work because I know better. Does anyone else have this problem? Of course, I do accept the fact that it very well might just be me. In that case, I am open to a reality check.
Thank you!
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Yes. In my previous job I booked two hours per fortnight in my calendar to training, defined what my aims were going to be for the year (agreed with my supervisor), and did it, eg learn simulink and develop a filter set and application for a specific purpose that we needed. Sadly I left before the implementation phase, but the idea was there.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I would not be too concerned about being called perfectionist, once you get the experience under your belt you will get faster and have fewer mistakes than others, so preserver ahead. As for you colleges leaving out info for "someone else", that is there choice, and in good time it will catch-up with them.
When in doubt, just take the next small step.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
If you are like me, you probably feel lower than those people you started to work with and who where your model or mentor, whatever you wanna call them. But let be realistic, just look at how many stars you give here each week to your fellow comrades, how many problems get a solution every day, how curious you are but also eager to help.
Gentlemen, I do not believe the master tradesman are dead. I agree that some people don't deserve this title, beginning by myself, but some deserve it for sure and some will deserve it with time.
YOU guys are the actual tradesman.
I may be too optimistic, but let think about it anyway
Cyril Guichard
Defense Program Manager
Belgium
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Perhaps you're correct, but I'd like to have a just a bit of help carrying the load in this office...
old field guy
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I don't really get a warm fuzzy from this trend.
a link, which I am sure is not news to anyone here.
http://s
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Whenever new technologies occur, and they must occur here to meet the ever growing demand for air travel using ever more expensive fuel, people adapt old theories, or form new theories, and some theories wind up being not correct. One hundred years ago, the Wright brothers flew their motorized kite, and survived, but plenty of others died or were injured on the path to the Dreamliner. The fact that they've caught the error before actually flying passengers is actually a testament to care and expertise of the engineers and techs that designed and built the plane.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
or is it Hubris?
ever read the Neville Shute novel,
"No Highway" (1948) ISBN 1-84232-273-7 ?
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
While it's an expensive lesson, it's a lesson, nonetheless, and the engineers involved will become the experts of the future.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
After those experiences I find myself back in school learning as much as I can about metal working from yet another master. Plus I am building a hobby machine shop at my house so I can gain more experience.
I don't want to be an engineer who sits at a desk and throws designs over the wall.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Type Engineering in google.....
Fe
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Fe
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Next thing people who shop at Ikea will call themselves engineers because they assembled a coffee table.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Fe
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Chris
SolidWorks 09, CATIA V5
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
For example, he insisted that the thrust axis from a propeller on a boat was determined by where the bolts were placed not on the shaft angle.
I even demonstrated that changing the trim angle on an outboard motor changed the trim of the hull although the bolts were not moved. He was not convinced.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
thank goodness my subsequent jobs have had a master or two...
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I've never waited for management to bring forward the opportunity for training or learning. I usually bring it up, and I'm always questioning everything I see. Truly the knowledge is there for the taking if you just know where to look, and who to ask.
Now if you're in a position where there's nobody to ask, and management shoots down any chance of training... well I guess you're up a creek without a paddle.
James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I was one of those. "Senior field engineer" was the title they had to hang on me in order to put me in the pay range I demanded when they hired me.
Was a neat and impressive title to the uninformed, but rather embarrassing when I had to deal with some REAL and very impressive engineers in the industry.
old field guy
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
(but this is off topic)
Fe
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
FeX32,
Each jurisdiction is different, but most have weasel words in the regs to allow things like the phone company's "Field Engineer" and the Microsoft "Applications Engineer" (spelled "programmer everywhere else). But you're right it is another topic.
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
In the 90's, one state got horsey about this and threatened to fine companies if their logo was on a business card with the word "Engineer" that wasn't a P.E. It was really unclear if they had jurisdiction over the companies (since the companies didn't have the word "Engineer" in the registered name) and I think it fizzled after a few nasty letters.
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
As for me, I didn't care what they called me, as long as the money was right. They couldn't fit "very well qualified and experienced high voltage power systems technologist" on the card.
I have spent a significant portion of my career tiptoeing around, saying "I'm not an electrical engineer, but THIS is wrong..." and smiling...
old field guy
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Do you remember the Budweiser advert with the frogs from about 15 years ago? "I'm no electrician..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3mXaATLeRM
About 1m 45s into the video.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I know of a few companies that had to reprint business cards because of it.
slta,
Be careful what you wish for!
When in doubt, just take the next small step.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
In today's economy, there are two kinds of engineers that I see general and specialized. The general engineer will learn and do just enough to get the project done and out the door. These types of engineers have a "broad" knowledge of ideas and methods and most likely keep their jobs in a down economy or find another job quicker because of there vast repertoire. However, their salary would be on the lower end.
The flip side (and maybe you can consider them the "master tradesmen") are the specialized engineer. They are specialized in one or few things. They have a "depth" of knowledge. These are the people you call in when the general engineer is stuck and need more specialized engineering knowledge to fix the problem. However, these engineers will be the first to go in a down economy and will take longer to find a job because their repertoire is limited. But, the plus side is that they will enjoy the hire pay scale compared to the general engineer.
Now, in today's economy, it is smarter for an individual to be the general engineer. Is this bad? I don't think so. It is the survival of the fittest. If one company goes down, a general engineer will have a wider skill set to transfer over to another industry or company. The master tradesmen (specialized engineer) would not.
To find specialized engineers, I tend to think that they would be in the larger companies than the small ones. If you are engineer in a small company, I guess you tend to wear many hats (which makes you a general engineer) and not have the luxury of having access to specialized engineers. However, in larger companies with many programs running in tandem, a specialized engineer can jump from one program to another as needed.
So to answer the OP, you would find more "master tradesmen" in larger engineering companies. I myself is considered a specialized engineer and I work with other specialized engineers who help me advance my knowledge of engineering, however, in a very narrow field.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradesman
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
This is about communicating designs to others in a clear, unambiguous manner, but it is also about having a quality design. It involves taking the time think things through up front, which actually saves time in the long run. It often comes down to simply remembering to put you pants on before you put your shoes on. The more you work at it, the more you will remember to do this, and eventually you will become a "master tradesman."
Stick your guns, Curiousmechanical.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
When in doubt, just take the next small step.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
There are many non professionally qualified but good engineers out there, however I think you need to be more than just an assembler of parts according to strict instructions to be considered an engineer. To be an engineer you need to be able to understand how things work and be able to use that knowledge to create or build things that work without depending unduly on luck or ridiculous over design.
If my previous comments lead anyone to believe that one must have an engineering degree and be certified by a professional association to be an engineer, that most certainly was not my intent.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
A lot of my job is spent troubleshooting problems and assisting with repairs, but it does not seem like there is a very hard drive from upper management to really get to the root of a problem. Most of the time these investigations require detailed monitoring and inspections and management doesn't really want to invest much time and money into it, especially if that means derating the unit.
And training is a joke. There isn't any solid detailed training program. You basically learn on the job. Most of the time we get by okay. The company just doesn't want to spend the money on training. As long as the units are running and making money, management is okay. They aren't doing much of anything about all of the tribal knowledge that will be lost with all of the upcoming retirements.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Which is not in and of itself a bad thing, but business schools don't cover agrarian subjects, including such basic concepts as not eating your seed corn.
The same Professional Managers (I use that as a pejorative in this context) are everywhere in the USA, so you can't escape them by changing companies or industries.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I swear I had similar thoughts/conversations with one of my friends from Uni a few years after entering industry. I was in a defence company he worked for the government in defence. We both bemoaned the promotion of inexperienced folks to project management, including ourselves.
Look around you, when you do find someone experienced learn from them what you can. I was fortunate to work alongside some very experienced folks my first few years, but there was little formal training or mentorship. However, every now and then one of them would take me under his wing and show me something. I owe a lot to Tony, Tony, Ray, Rob and Roger and probably a couple of others I forget to mention. You can still learn something from people that suck - what not to do!
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Once again, thank you all for your continued feedback and comments!
hokie66:
You are correct. I probably should have used the term "master engineer," instead of "master tradesman." I think I was stuck in the mindset of the apprentice/master craftsman comparison.
Twoballcane:
Thank you very much for your breakdown of the two common types of engineers! It was very enlightening. Based on your descriptions, I am definitively working in the "general engineering" environment. I often here the figure of speech: "jack of all trades, master of none." This may be the root of my problem.
I enjoy getting deeply involved in a problem or subject and fully understanding it. I hate just "plugging and chugging" without having any confidence in what I am doing or the results that I get (that goes for FEA and manual analysis). However, that seems to be what most people do at my company because there is so much pressure to just get the job out of the building. Everything seems to be done haphazardly. People are forced to work fast, not smart.
In school, I enjoyed the more in-depth subjects and heavy level math used to solve difficult problems. I often wonder if I should pursue a more specialized career. I suppose that I am somewhat reluctant to do so for the reasons that you have outlined (and others); the fear of picking the wrong (one that I may lose interest in) specialty or becoming obsolete as technology and trends change. I guess this is a hard, but necessary decision that every engineer has to make in their career. Either, that or I guess I could pursue a career in academia. While not knowing any better, this sounds like an attractive alternative!
Thanks again!
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Life is not about finding the utopia, it's about making your own utopia out of whatever life deals you. As spoken by the master actor himself, "Captain Kirk, have you ever read Milton?" Kirk responds, "Yes. I understand. ... The statement Lucifer made when he fell into the pit: "It is better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.""
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Certainly things have changed, technology is moving at a pace that only the Industrial revolution and WW2 came close to creating and look at the side issues with them. People travel more these days and a job for life is a thing of the past. Is someone with 45 years experience in one field now seen as a master or a dinosaur with 4.5 years experience 10 times over?
People's expectations are far greater and generally formal education is rated above experience, not sure if that is good or bad.
Still when you look at some of the structures being built, be they buildings, bridges, tunnels etc, the progress in air travel and space travel, the type of cars we all drive, the progress in micro-biology, robotics, computer software and hardware and many other disciplines are we really getting it that wrong?
Things are different now to they were in the past and I am sure they will change in the future, but there are now as there always were and always will be good, bad and average in all walks of life.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
"If my previous comments lead anyone to believe that one must have an engineering degree and be certified by a professional association to be an engineer, that most certainly was not my intent."
Thanks, buddy... I resemble that remark.
old field guy
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I have been doing structural engineering of buildings and structures for 36+ years, ranging from single family residential to mid-rise hotels and office buildings to mining and manufacturing facilities. Both with greenfield projects and the renovation of existing buildings.
Entering the workforce with a BS degree I felt that there was so much that I did not know. My first job was with a small commercial building consulting firm and the Owner and the senior engineer mentored me through the design process and drawing preparation requirements. I would not be the engineer I am today without them. One real eye-opener was my first annual review where I learned how my inefficincies affected the bottom line on projects I was associated with.
My first job change was to a design-build industrial contractor. The structural department in our branch office had about 30 people. For my first assignment I was teamed with the most senior drafter. It was never said, but I was sure that he was asked to report on my abilities. We never worked together again. I moved onto the mid-level drafters and eventually to the new hires. That system seemed to work very well for everyone as new employees were introduced to the companies standards and methodology by the people they were directly working with.
Subsequent jobs allowed me to be project manager and structural engineer of record for numerous building projects. I completed a MS degree later in my career as part of my plan to stay current.
Fast forward to my present job with a medium sized industry specific consulting firm. On a current project, a young CAD drafter with a 2-yr technical degree and less than 2 yrs of experience ignores my directives and develops the drawings as he thinks they should be. Granted he knows CAD better than I do, but he is a novice when it comes to preparing construction documents. I find it hard to believe that so much practical knowledge can be imparted directly through any college program.
I just can't imagine working for an engineering supervisor with that level of experience, and probably even more confidence.
GJC
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
You can learn to determine the deflection of a platform using theory in school. However, if you are 50 feet in the air on a platform, you realize how important a 1/2" deflection is, even if the stresses are nowhere near a failure.
I have learned a lot from getting my hands dirty. Do any of you who have been in engineering longer feel that engineer's hands are cleaner than in the past?
-- MechEng2005
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
As a controls engineer I have the problem of always being the last person onsite. Sometimes coming to the conclusion that its really a mechanical problem. Point is when I have determined that the mechanical engineer should make a visit, it takes an Act of God to get that mechanical engineer out in the field.
So as far as my point of view I think the mechanical engineers never seems to get there hands dirty. Just my biased opinion. Yes, I do get my hands more dirty being last onsite on startups.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
I do feel it is up to the individual. Funny enough, there are mechanicals that are not mechanically inclined, but yet design mechanical equipment. I guess like electricals who are not good at soldering electronics together, but yet they design CCAs. So I guess if the person is more mechanically inclined, these are the people who may appreciate getting their hands dirty to get a better understanding of their design.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Plus fundamental aptitude as IRstuff says, I have fat fingers and the shakes, manipulating some of the small stuff we have here is a night mare for me. However the dextrous production staff down stairs etc. do this just fine. Does this mean I shouldnt' ever spec a screw smaller than about #6. Obviously it is a warning that it may be a bit fiddly but ruling it our completely because I can't do it is OTT.
Things like welding & soldering are others, one thing to have a basic understanding and maybe do a little as a hobby etc. but expecting to be really good at all the combinations & variations, I doubt it.
Or maybe I suck more than I ever realized due to my relative lack of hands on experience, hmm...
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Sometimes, to do that, you have to do the wrenching and recording yourself, so the techs can go on a service call and bring in more money than it costs to have you out there.
I could do without installing an exhaust pressure tap while the turbo is spooling up, though.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
MAN!! There is a lot of finesse to doing this and I give the techs a node of appreciation. Just to be hunched over a CCA and wielding a hot iron in one hand and a lead of solder in another and not burn the electronics while soldering takes an art form. I was so glad that the strike ended before they sent me to the line. QA would be having a fit!
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Also, my time in the mud made me able to design doglegs, leg-offs, and pigging facilities that both met the design criteria and were also "constructable". If I hadn't seen the guys struggling with an awkward design it wouldn't be as important to me.
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
However, in some things the field experience can be a much better teacher than sitting at a desk. A younger engineer once put anchors for a machine as close as possible to the machine. Good idea to try to not make the footprint unnecessarily large. However, after watching the installation contractor that couldn't put an drill the holes for the anchor bolt in straight because there wasn't enough clearance around the drill, it became apparent that maybe a little larger foot print is a minor issue.
I think a "master engineer" should design things that are as easy to build, install, etc. as possible. It's a lot easier to make things easier for others when you know how they do their job.
When I'm in the field, I personally do only minor hand-dirtying work. Maybe hold a small plate that needs to be welded while the welder tacks it on and that sort of thing. I haven't welded, but I certainly know the benefit of having locating pins for something that will be field welded and needs to be positioned at all accurately.
-- MechEng2005
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
A big part of Engineering to me is to be able to at least partially predict how things behave in advance, to reduce (or in the case of things like buildings & bridges) eliminate prototypes (or whatever your industry calls them at different stages).
So I think you do spend a decent amount of time & effort up front using tools like analysis (both classical and CAE), CAD reference resources, experience of colleagues/consultants etc and then prototype.
lus for one offs or even low volume stuff, prototypes aren't an always option. Yes you can tweak the finished item from the nominal design but major changes are often out of the question.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Don't get me wrong, some of our self is cutting edge/on the limits of known physics so there you may not have a choice. But making sure the parts fit together for instance seems fairly fundamental.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
As a result, a significant chunk of many (most?) companies' knowledge base is culled as soon as the company doesn't meet its "projected" profit (even if a profit is still made).
The end result is that seasoned engineers aren't around to take younglings under our wings as it were.
Another consideration is that today's grads (not all, but a really good percentage) don't respect the knowledge of veteran engineers as it's "not what's in my textbook". If it isn't published in the last 5 years, and it doesn't include high-res cad models, it's just too old to be of any value.
I'm just over 40, and I had the advantage of working for a small mold shop for a while before moving to a large company. What I learned from the patience of senior designers and master mold makers was invaluable compared to what I learned of design from school.
Some engineering regulatory bodies are starting to reconsider the value of formal mentors because of the downward trend, so we just may see an increased focus on developing post-academic education.
Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc. www.tec-ease.com
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
post-bachaloriate acedimic
post-baccalaureate academic
SPELL CHECK!!!!
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
When in doubt, just take the next small step.
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
The problem as I see it is that the people on the NCESS committee are a mix of academics who only know the public trough and people that companies feel they can do without for long enough to participate in NCEES committees. Not terribly representative of industry. Further, the committee is dominated by civil/structural types (just like the ranks of PE's) and MS degrees are more common in those fields than ME, EE, IE, etc. so they don't see what the fuss is all about.
David
RE: Where are all of the master tradesman?
Some senior engineers (up here) with impressive lists of accomplishments (though mostly without Master's or Doctorate's it seems) are now advocating Engineering as a Master's-level degree rather than just requiring a Bachelor's degree. They seem to feel that grads aren't socially rounded enough to appropriately function. It's also motivated in an attempt to raise our stature comparable to medical doctors and lawyers. The fact is that we turn out too many engineering graduates (compared to those other professional-level programs) to be in a position where our services are publicly perceived to be as important as others.
We seem to have the same Civil-minded base up here too. That's where I see the bulk of the membership and the bulk of the professional development offerings too.
Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc. www.tec-ease.com