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Tangent lines on Isometric views

Tangent lines on Isometric views

Tangent lines on Isometric views

(OP)
Hello,

Is it standard to keep tangent lines shown on isometric views?  Please see the sample file attached.  For this particular part, it doesn't seem like it adds clarity by keeping the tangent lines.  It seems more confusing for me to have them, but that could just be me.  I typically prefer no tangent lines, but according to Y14.4M-1999 section 3.4 Fig 16c, tangent lines (phantom lines) are acceptable as a substitute.

Lisa

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

You've already looked in the standard.  My rule of thumb on such things is to show them if it adds clarity, not show them if it gets confusing.  The phantom line thing can help.

I will say this about the drawing you link, it seems as if phantom and hidden lines are a bit mixed up, it's difficult to tell what's going on.


KENAT,

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RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

In your example I would show the tangent edges as solid or, if possible, in shaded without edges mode.

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

As stated above, those phantom lines are messing up the view. That's why it doesn't seem any more clear with them there. You should change the tangent lines to solid and then keep them turned on. I can see where not having them on a part like this can leave much to be desired in the clarity department.

Powerhound, GDTP T-0419
Production Manager
Inventor 2009
Mastercam X3
Smartcam 11.1
SSG, U.S. Army
Taji, Iraq OIF II

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

I agree with powerhound, turn them to solid lines.

Solid Edge V20

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

I don't think it would really help to make them solid.  I would make the line weight thin, though.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

"Shaded without edges has no place on a formal drawing"

Well it should ... "if it adds clarity"   smile

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

I only show hidden lines in a view if it adds clarity and is essential to fully describing the part.

Perhaps if they were shut off it would be easier to read.

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

But Modulus, those aren't hidden lines, they are tangent lines, which kind of makes the point that they should be solid. Leaving them as phantom lines only adds to the confusion...as we are seeing here.

Powerhound, GDTP T-0419
Production Manager
Inventor 2009
Mastercam X3
Smartcam 11.1
SSG, U.S. Army
Taji, Iraq OIF II

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

I don't really see the confusion as it is shown currently.  If hidden lines were visible it would be a different matter.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

(OP)
thank you all for your advice.  I have a stack of drawings all done in a similar fashion (by the same person) with numerous phantom lines in view...some even on 2D views.  It is my opinion that it doesn't add clarity, but the engineer is demanding a hard requirement that states that tangent lines should not not be shown.  I guess because I'm a checker he feels he is above a drawing check.    

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

The diagonal lines were throwing me, and some of the I presume "phantom lines" appear to be hidden line style, probably the way your CAD system scaled it.

I agree with you that it doesn't add any clarity for the most part based on your sample.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

What I see is that there are no hidden lines, the solid lines are edges or silhouettes and the phantom lines are tangents. I do not see the confusion. My personal preference is to show tangent lines a dimmed, they have a solid font, but are lighter than edges. If dimmed is not available as an option, phantom makes sense.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

I'm questioning why there are tangent edges shown on the orthographic projected views.  I haven't found many, if any, parts that required tangent edges to be shown on orthographic views.  I only show them on isometric views.  Perhaps the part would be clearer if they were removed from the orthographic projections but were left on in the isometric projection.

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

(OP)
PeterStock - how about this sample print attached.  Does it add clarity to have all tangent lines shown?  Even on 2D views?  Where do you draw the line?  Who makes the call that the phantom lines stay or go?  As a checker, if it is confusing to me....do I tell the Engineer to remove them?  He will argue that they stay.  It is almost easier to implement consistency by saying all or nothing (in this case no tangent lines).  If I leave it to decide on a case by case basis....I'm sure each pair of eyes that view the drawing will see it differently.

Lisa

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

(OP)
dazedI totally agree!  I think it is because I'm a female that I'm sometimes not taken seriously when I return prints to Engineers and its covered in red ink.  Although, I've been a checker here for the last three years.  He is the first to challenge every redline I have made.  

Thanks Kenat...I think I just needed to know that others agree with me.  When I'm challenged, it makes me question myself if I am doing it right or am I just being petty.

Lisa

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

Either get rid of them or make them solid. Those phantom lines are just too disruptive.

Powerhound, GDTP T-0419
Production Manager
Inventor 2009
Mastercam X3
Smartcam 11.1
SSG, U.S. Army
Taji, Iraq OIF II

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

You aren't the female checker some other poster was complaining about a few months (years?) back are youwinky smile.

Most people didn't like me pointing out their mistakes either and I am of the male persuasion though fairly young and inexperienced (by checker standards).  However, my immediate predecssor was retirement age and they didn't like him pointing stuff out either.

I think Engineers are worse than designers/drafter but I don't have a large enough sample size to say that with much confidence.

That said, the lead systems guy was over asking why everyone here is so resistant to doing tolerance checks, I told him I didn't know (although I shared a few theories) but that they were like that with me too when I was checking.

3 years is pretty good going though for this to be the first to question every redlinewinky smile.

Good luck, keep fighting the good fight.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

(OP)
That may have been me a year ago ,smile.  I think it was about center marks on every hole on every view.  Funny thing...the same guy that gave me a hardtime back then.....is now my manager.

Lisa

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

Well pep's I do all when it comes to Design. I Design the tool, detail the tool, check my prints (I know what you all going to say "you shouldn't check your own prints" But i have no choice due to recourses) up date checker prints, make a book & copy prints for tool build. I used to due lot more but they took my detailer away...

But back to OP. Our cad system is defaulted to show tangent lines, there visible lines not phantom lines. In the drawing i posted, which ISO would you prefer to see on a drawing if you building this part? (I removed the dimensions from the print) Remember also, ISO view are for clarification on complicated parts sometimes. We don't use ISO view's unless for clarification of the part.

Solid Edge V20

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

I would agree that for most orthographic views, the tangent lines do not add anything. The exceptions mostly being when there are no edges for a feature to show up. In an iso view (I usually show an iso or two for reference) I show the tangent lines a dimmed or phantom. For the part in lthurner's example, I would need to try it with and without for the iso view, the existing iso does look a bit busy.

The cad system I am most familiar with (Pro/E) gives the ability to show only selected tangent lines. I use this method to show features that would otherwise not show up clearly.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

cadman, my favourite is #4.  For this part I don't see that showing the tangent lines adds much, and certainly the hidden lines in #1 is just messy.

Agree with Peter that ortho views rarely benefit from tangent lines.

But that's just my 2C.  Management types will like #4 most because it's prettier.winky smile

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

I have to agree with Peter on this issue.  The thing to remember is that you want a clear, concise drawing. Unfortunately, not everyone sees the same thing when looking at a view containing smooth edges.  Sometimes they are necessary to refine the part definition, sometimes they just add a lot of "noise" to the drawing.  I think it would be a mistake to declare a blanket edict banning or requiring them.  They should be used on a case-by-case basis.
I prefer #4, but would not reject #2 if the smooth edges were a thin weight.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

The way I see it, back when I was making a drawing of a part in AutoCAD I didn't try to show tangency lines, why should I show them just because I can do so easily using Solidworks?  I think it is a rare drawing that benefits from showing tangency lines.  Just my 2 cents.

RE: Tangent lines on Isometric views

There are many different shapes to be defined.  If you work with mainly blocks and cylinders, smooth edges are moot.  If you work with complex, organic shapes, you simply cannot easily portray the required shape without using smooth edges.  Of course, there is a huge gray area between the extremes, so YMMV.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

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