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Design work for use in another state

Design work for use in another state

Design work for use in another state

(OP)
I have searched state licensing requirements and cannot find an ansewer for this question. I have been asked to perform structural engineering for someone in my state (PA) who is constructing a house in another state. I suggested they hire an engineer in that state, but they want to work with someone local. They indicated to me that the area where the home will be constructed in rural and does not have a building code or require stamped drawings. My question is whether it is legal for me to perform these engineering services and perhaps just stamp my calculations and possibly some detail drawings if the structure will be built in another state. This question assumes that that state does not require a P.E. Seal.

RE: Design work for use in another state

"They indicated to me that the area where the home will be constructed in rural and does not have a building code or require stamped drawings"

You have to make sure that a PE stamp is not a requirement if you are interested in the project. Call the City Hall in the city where the house will be built and talk to the building department and make sure. Make sure you hear that from them and not from a person who may have a personal interest in the project.

In almost everywhere I know there will be an Occupancy Certificate that has to be signed at the end of the project. The OC need to carry the Structural PE Stamp and other stamps to make the house ready for occupancy. Nowadays, the structural PE not only has to Stamp the Drawings and the OC, he also has to sign the OC attesting to the fact that the project was properly built.

"My question is whether it is legal for me to perform these engineering services and perhaps just stamp my calculations and possibly some detail drawings if the structure will be built in another state"

Yes it is legal as long as you can find somebody in the other state who is willing to stamp the project for you. and take final responsibilty for Occupancy Certificate. They will have to review your work and take full responsibility and you would have to pay them from your fee. In this case, you will end up like the middle man.
 

RE: Design work for use in another state

My guess is that in many States single family residential plans and specs do not need to be prepared by a licensed professional.

DaveAtkins

RE: Design work for use in another state

It is not always legal in a given State to "find somebody in the other state who is willing to stamp the project for you and take final responsibilty for Occupancy Certificate". Some States specifically frown upon this as plan stamping. I don't know about PA.

In some states performing engineering work without a license is not legal - regardless of whether or not the project needs sealed drawings. I don't know how or why this would be enforced but I'll bet the laws are on the books.  

RE: Design work for use in another state

JNJ,

It up to the PE in the state that will review and stamp the project, I am sure he will have to do a thorough review of the drawings and calculations before stamping anything. In this case the Liability is fully burdened on the PE of the said state and the project will become his full responsibilty and his responsibility alone and not the person who prepared the original documents.

RE: Design work for use in another state

Are you speaking for PA or for all States?  

RE: Design work for use in another state

JNJ,

I don't know the details of this case; however, I will sight a real example on what I mean:

An Owner for a project hired an Architect, the Architect went and hired a Structural Engineer from Canada. When it came to build the project. The owner asked the Architect to fire the Structural Engineer from Canada and hire a Local Engineer. So the Architect hired a local Engineer, the new structural engineer rechecked the whole project and revised it as needed and then he stamped the project.

There was nothing wrong with what was done as far as I know.

I posted my earlier post based on this example, and I do not see anything wrong with that, nor any court should see anything wrong with that.

RE: Design work for use in another state

AHaddad1,

JLNJ is correct in that the situation varies with locality.  You cannot make a blanket statement about these matters.  Saying that "nor any court should see anything wrong with that" is poor advice.  The mere act of trying to circumvent licensing requirements is wrong, in my opinion.

RE: Design work for use in another state

"Saying that "nor any court should see anything wrong with that" is poor advice"

I agree, eventhough the statement was not intended as advice.

"The mere act of trying to circumvent licensing requirements is wrong, in my opinion."

I am not trying to change what the pre-existing licensing rules are, nor do I dare to change them.

The key issue as Structural Engineers is protecting the public from nature. If all of us just worry about that part alone, then all other issues become secondary.

RE: Design work for use in another state

I would agree with you in a perfect world, but unfortunately our world includes bureaucrats and lawyers.

RE: Design work for use in another state

Hokie66,

There are firms out there that do not follow the code requirements line by line, and why is that one might ask? the answer is that those same people wrote the code.   

RE: Design work for use in another state

Texas does not require a PE for private dwellings, farms or ranches.  There are certain parts of residential projects for which municipalities may or may not require a Texas PE seal, including: retaining walls over a certain height, unusual building methods, prefabricated components.

Non-residential buildings over 5,000 square feet, more than one story, or apartments or condos over a certain size require a PE.  Non-dwelling buildings with structural components spanning longer than 24 feet require a structural PE for the entire structure.

RE: Design work for use in another state

In many (most?) states, as DaveAtkins stated above, PE participation in moderately sized residential houses is NOT a requirement.

What you should do, mjr6550, is contact the state board of engineering in the state where the home is located, and ask them if the proposed house falls under engineering regulations.

Or better, get on the website of that board as they all post the engineering laws that apply in that state.

If it is not a requirement that a house be designed by a licensed engineer, then you can design it yourself and since no seal is required for a building permit, simply give the design to your client to use in construction.

 

RE: Design work for use in another state

(OP)
Thanks for the replies. Just to keep things on track, here are a couple more details. I did review the regulations for the state where the house will be built. It seems clear to me from their regulations that if a P.E. stamp is required the P.E. must be registered in that state. Due to the size of the house it does not fall under the IRC and therefore engineering design is required. I will try to check with the local authorities, but my question hinges on the point of if a stamp is not required by local authorities then is it legal to perform the engineering. The more I think about it the more I feel that this is a problem. Even if locally they do not require a P.E. stamp I still need to stamp my calcs. If they somehow are seen by someone in that state that could be viewed as practicing in that state without a license. Also. if they need to get a P.E. in that state to review my work I will not take the job. I don't want to waste their money.  

RE: Design work for use in another state

Call the State Engineering Board in the project state.  They will know the answer since if you break a law they will fine you.

 

RE: Design work for use in another state

Yes...repeating - call the state board about it.

Also, your statement that the house "does not fall under the IRC therefore engineering design is required" doesn't make sense to me.

How does a single family house not fall under the IRC?  The IRC is written specifically for single and double family housing.

What does the IRC have to do with this thread?  The IRC doesn't dictate when a PE stamp is required.  It doesn't define what the practice of engineering is.

 

RE: Design work for use in another state

Here is a good thread that deals with the same topic from the other side, the side of the stamping PE in the state the project will be built.

www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=227582

RE: Design work for use in another state

I believe it is illegal to offer or provide engineering services in any state in which you are not licensed, even if a sealed and signed set of drawings is not required for the project.  

RE: Design work for use in another state

So in State A, its OK for a local non-engineer to draw up a set of house plans, but it is illegal for an engineer in another state to draw up house plans in that state?

That doesn't make sense to me.
 

RE: Design work for use in another state

Why not apply for comity and obtain a PE license in the other state? Depending on the fee for the project, this may be a worthwhile option. It would certainly appear to simplify matters.

RE: Design work for use in another state

I hate to say it, but there may be some overanalyzing going on here...

The house would still be covered by the IRC, even if it's of a size and design that allows the prescriptive methods included in the code to be used in lieu of separate structural analysis.

I work for a homebuilder and we ship homes all over the world.  We ensure that our products meet local code requirements and if required, obtain a structural stamp on our drawings and design for the applicable US state.  If no stamp is required, we still do some calculations to ensure that the design meets local code, but we send unsealed construction docs and no calcs.  We've never had a code official have a problem with this.

If you establish from the local building department that a stamp is not required for your size/configuration of house, just design what needs to be done and move on.  Clearly, if the house needs a stamp, the stamp will have to be from the state where the house will be built.

RE: Design work for use in another state

JAE, I'm talking about providing structural engineering services, not drafting/providing architectural drawings for a house.  mjr wrote that he (she?) was asked to provide structural engineering for a project in a state other than the one where he is licensed.  Every state where I am licensed has laws stating that if you are providing engineering services in that state, you must be licensed in that state.  Even if the house falls under the prescriptive requirements of the IRC and no PE seal is required, providing engineering services is providing engineering services.  just sayin'.

RE: Design work for use in another state

archeng59 - I understand what you are saying.

But many states actually exempt certain structures from their engineering act.  So when residential houses smaller than a certain square-foot area are exempt from the act, you don't have to be licensed in that state to design the house, even if you are licensed in another state.

Many homes (most homes?) are designed by non-engineers.  So if I, as and engineer, go to another state and design a house that isn't required to have a PE seal, I should be OK provide that state has a stated exemptionin their laws that say PE-status isn't required for homes, etc.

RE: Design work for use in another state

...call the city, county, or state for clarification.

RE: Design work for use in another state

Hey the basic issue here is whether the state requires you to have a firm or individual permit (different than a PE license) to do work in that state.  You can be fined if caught.

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