×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

How do you guys organize your files?
4

How do you guys organize your files?

How do you guys organize your files?

(OP)
I'm new to CAD design and I'm wondering how you guys organize your files and what are the best practices?

Do you put assemblies, parts, drawings, in separate folders?

C:/Solidworks/Project1/parts
C:/Solidworks/Project1/drawings
C:/Solidworks/Project1/assemblies
C:/Solidworks/Project1/subassemblies

And how do you deal with the versioning?

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

When I am not using a pdm system, I organize my stuff in a project folder.  I don't use subfolders.  I keep all of my standard hardware in a separate directory that is sub-foldered.

-Dustin
Professional Engineer
Certified SolidWorks Professional
Certified COSMOSWorks Designer Specialist
Certified SolidWorks Advanced Sheet Metal Specialist
 

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

I use PDMWorks, using anything other than a PDM application may cause issues later.

Chris
SolidWorks 09, CATIA V5
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

I have everything in project folders unless I intend on reusing the files.  These files (bearings, electronic components, etc.) are organized in a "General Components folder and placed in subfolders by type.

Dan

www.eltronresearch.com
Dan's Blog

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

If you are running PDMWorks Workgroup then I would dump all files into one folder.  It may feel cumbersome but you won't run into reference issues across multiple users.

The problem with Workgroups is that it stores your files locally until you check them in.  If you run them in separate folders (parts vs assemblies) then everyone needs to put the files in the correct folders and their tree must match yours exactly.  It's a royal PITA to be honest.  I found it best to run parts, assemblies and drawings in one folder and hardware in your design library and not the toolbox.  I can go into details on the toolbox if you wish but don't want to steer the topic off course.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Our system is as follows.

Each part under our design activity has its own folder. This folder contains the model (whether part or assembly), drawing, and any other files pertaining specifically to it.

Each part folder is located a maximum of one folder below our main parts database (If I had it my way, all of the parts folders would just be located in the main parts database). These major folders that the part folders are divided into categories based on their relation to the final assemblies that they end up on.

If the part was designed specifically for one product and is common only to that product, the part folder will go directly into that product's folder.
If, at the time of design, the part is common to multiple products, its folder will be placed in our common/non product-specific folder.
If the part was designed for one product, but later becomes common to multiple products, it stays in the folder of the product which it was designed for. We've concluded that it's not worth it to move the folder based on its newfound commonality.
After that we have just one more folder for standard parts, hardware, and purchased parts that we aren't the design activity on.  

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Absent a PDM system, I organize development projects into their own folders.  When files are release into production, they go into a protected folder for released files.

Sorting files into folders by type is a recipe for disaster.  You will lose connections between parts, drawings, assemblies, etc.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

With or without PDM:

1. Create a folder tree
2. Each tree is numbered according to part number
3. Part numbers are six digits (or whatever you need)
4. Each folder gets 1,000 parts (Windoze slows with big folders)
5. A community spreadsheet contains descriptions of each part number. PartNumbers.xls for example

Folder 100000-100999
Folder 101000-101999
Folder 102000-102999
etc.

In options you set FILES/REFERENCES to point to the folder containing these folders and check Search External References in options.

You can format your spreadsheet like this:

PartNo  Description  DrawingNo  Project
======  ===========  =========  =======

The reason you want to keep a separate drawing number is that design tables can create multiple parts in a single drawing.

The spreadsheet is really important if you value your sanity because it will allow you to search for parts. Don't make the mistake of giving meaningful part numbers. Use the description and or project.

One advantage of this format is that when you decide to go to PDM this format will be real easy to pull into a PDM database.

And never save two files with the same name in different directories. Bad things can happen.

You could in fact create a macro that pulls a part number from the spreadsheet and adds the description to the spreadsheet and the part.

The formality of this method works well for a manufacturing environment. If you do jobs for many customers then you might have to add a customer specific part number and the customer's job number to your spreadsheet.

The big issue with a non-PDM file management solution is that he who saves last wins!

TOP
CSWP
BSSE

www.engtran.com
www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Fuzzy -

Follow up to what kellnerp said....

3Dawn Consulting already has a utility, "Get Next Part Number Wizard" that works perzactly like that:

http://www.3dawn.com/

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

kellnerp's way.  Use numbers, save in folders named with a range of numbers etc.  I know why it might be tempting to save parts in a project file, but don't you guys reuse?  It seems to me that if you are not setting up to (plan to) reuse, you are probably wasting time duplicating work.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Quote (gwubs):

I know why it might be tempting to save parts in a project file,...

And that's how PDMWorks does it. We had to keep a spreadsheet on the side to issue PNs.

Projects is OK for a job shop, but you still end up using numbers. If you make the mistake of organumizing by projects and using duplicate part names you are in for trouble of a most insidious sort.  

TOP
CSWP
BSSE

www.engtran.com
www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Quote (gwubs):

Use numbers, save in folders named with a range of numbers etc.  I know why it might be tempting to save parts in a project file, but don't you guys reuse?

Uh--no.  But I'm an industrial designer.  Swoopy organic shapes, designed for the immediate project, and never used again--at all.  But this brings up a great point.  Not everyone has the same needs.

For instance, I save everything in the following hierarchy:
Client
  Project
    Revision
      Export/Special

Any time I expect a decent edit to a project I copy all the current-revision files to a new directory, named by the date (yymmdd--keeps everything in chronological order so you don't screw up and get parts from an outdated revision) followed by a description if necessary, such as "Prototype".

So a given full-length path might look like this:
Stanley\Pull Saw\090710 Production Quote\STEP

Getting parts to vendors for prototypes or production often involves exports to differing formats, hence the need for an Export/Special directory that could include a huge variety of exported file formats.

Also--I don't ever name my files by numbers.  Just what I need--an external index to tell me what the hell the part is.  I use unique descriptive naming.  The client often has a naming system of their own, so there's no point in moving to a number system neither of us uses.  If they want to rename everything once they're in production, they can do it themselves.

As you can see, if you're corporate and designing everything in-house, you likely have no need for a Client directory.  But if you're solo and doing a large variety of work, this system is efficient and clean.  Plus, it allows you to instantly find any file as fast as you can click through directories--and leaves you no need of tedious indexing/searching crapware on your computer to bog things down with endless indexing when you need your computer resources most (such as rendering an animation).

The answer to the question depends who you are and what your needs are.

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people governed by fear cannot value freedom.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

That is the jobber approach. The intelligence is in the file structure. From the looks of it you will have files with duplicate names in a revision folder. How do you keep SW from finding those files?

TOP
CSWP
BSSE

www.engtran.com
www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

We have everything broken down under parts or assemblies.

drawn to design, designed to draw

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

^Theophilus, good point, my question can have different answers.  One other thing to consider - available disc space.  We are currently sitting at around 20,000 part/assembly files, with drawings for about 80 percent of them.  Our IT guy is stressing because of the sheer size of the data back up.  Any duplication of parts in multiple project locations would be viewed very dimly because of the server disc space required... That said, maybe the best advice to the original question of the thread might be:  Have a plan on file structure.  Consider how you will organise and use your files, and then stick to the plan.  If working in a group, then that means EVERYBODY sticks to the plan.  Doing things willy nilly gets messy real fast.  

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Duplication of parts is a big no-no. As I said before that can really mess with SW mind.

I can't believe you are approaching 1 Tbyte with 20,000 parts and assemblies (with their revisions). When I set up my last system we had 10,000 documents and they occupied about 6 to 7 gig. I wouldn't even talk about too many files till I approached 1 Tbyte. Anyhow, what are you going to do? That is your engineering documentation. It's not like you are storing personal photo files or mp3s. It is IT's job to find a place to store them safely.

Send the IT guy to CAD Managers boot camp or have him talk to some experienced PDM people.

SW has experienced major file bloat in the last 14 releases or so. I used to think my 100Mb part files were monstrous in 1999. Now such file sizes are not at all uncommon.

You biggest concern with lots of files is the number of entries in your directories. That should be kept to around 1,000 or listing directories becomes slow.  

TOP
CSWP
BSSE

www.engtran.com
www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

I try to use the roundfile as much as possible to minimize what I have to organize.  

I'm not trying to be funny here, but I do not save everything.  It's just too much to have to wade through and I have enough $%^& in my life right now...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

kellnerp - the back ups take too long to complete during the 2:00 am to 6:00 am time window when our server is not in use.  Yes, it is IT's problem, but having duplicate files would really bug them (rightly so).

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Hi, fuzzybabybunny:

I have been using the following file structures since June, 2003.  We have about 20,000 documents (@ 13GB) in our vault.

Good Luck with yours!

Alex

*****************************

>New Vault
  >>_Checkin
  >>_Working
  >>Assemblies
      >>>Assy 00000
      >>>Assy 00001
 >>Parts
      >>>Part 00000
      >>>Part 00001
      >>>Part 00002
      >>>Part 00003
      >>>Part 00004
      >>>Part 00005
      >>>Part 00006
      >>>Part 00007
      >>>Part 00008
  >>_Standard
  >>_Toolbox parts

We use ten characters (non-intelligent) for part models (drawings) beginning with "P-".  We use ten characters (non-intelligent) for assembly models (drawings) beginning with "A-".  Each folder holds a thousand of part numbers or assembly numbers.
 

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

There are better backup solutions. It is hard to believe that it takes four hours to back up your files. For one thing, you do a differential or incremental backup nightly, not the whole thing and this goes relatively quickly because you are only backing up new or changed files. You back the whole thing up on a weekend.

Secondly if you do what we did for backups it doesn't matter. Our backup software took an image of the servers hard drive. This took less than an hour to complete for everything on the servers. Then the backup drive pushed it off to a removable hard drive which was the backup media that went in the fire vault.

It sounds like you are using tape drives which makes it really hard to get something from backup if you need it.  

TOP
CSWP
BSSE

www.engtran.com
www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Quote:

We use ten characters (non-intelligent) for part models (drawings) beginning with "P-".  We use ten characters (non-intelligent) for assembly models (drawings) beginning with "A-".  Each folder holds a thousand of part numbers or assembly numbers.
I have to ask what the point is in doing this? The file extension determines the type of file. So adding the intelligence to the part number that one is an assembly and the other is a part is hard to fathom. What do you do when you have the same part modeled as an assembly and a part? What do you do with assembly documents that end up being parts such as would be the case with a weldment? What do you do when you have a purchased part that comes in as an assembly, like say a Bimba cylinder? What if you have an assembly that is used as a layout? Or a part that is really just a few reference planes and surfaces? Or even a part that behaves like an assembly such as a weldment with cut list? Part numbers are really cheap. What is wrong with putting the word ASSY at the beginning of the description of an assembly?

Just some food for thought.

TOP
CSWP
BSSE

www.engtran.com
www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Just checking into this thread again.

What's the idea of duplicate files in my directory?  I'm not sure what you're alluding to.  I don't have any duplicates in any directory (cannot do this with Windows).  Just wondering.  Sometimes I'll bump a part I'm doing heavy modifications to up a serial number on the end, such as "Widget Chassis 11" and so on, but when I get ready for production release, I lose the serial numbers and return to "Widget Chassis".  (This way, if something gets hosed, I can return to the last revision that worked great and add the tweaks from there under a new serial number.)

I only work from the latest date-specified (revision) project folder, too--but there is lots of duplication between revision folders that might look like this:
Stanley
  Pull Saw
    090617
    090620
    090621 Chassis Revision
    090623 Prototype
    090701 Tweaks
    090713 Production

Lots of redundant files between the directories, but it's only hard drive space.  The nice thing is that I can go back to a past revision for whatever reason (and sometimes this comes in handy).

I use back-up software and schedule back-ups to external drive(s) each night, but it's smart enough to update only what's changed since the previous back-up.  So a given back-up takes very little time (but I also use fast hard drives).  For solid models alone, it seems I can fit my entire career on a 320GB drive.  So the cost of hard drives (in my case) is negligible.

 

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people governed by fear cannot value freedom.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Quote (Theophilus):


Stanley
  Pull Saw
    090617
    090620
    090621 Chassis Revision
    090623 Prototype
    090701 Tweaks
    090713 Production

What I am reading here is that there may be a File1, File2, File3, etc in each of these revision folders. If that is so, do you have Search External References checked in Tools/System/External References? Do you have a search path checked?

Do you work these projects alone?

TOP
CSWP
BSSE

www.engtran.com
www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

kelnerp - We don't only back up engineering files here. Acounting and Service dept. also need backing up.  So disc space is cheap but sheer volume of data is an issue. Also, back ups are off site so that if the building burns down we're not out to lunch.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Oh, I see what you mean.  Maybe I forgot to mention a key to using this system.  When I bump up a revision of a project, I go to my top-level Drawing or Assembly document--the document which references all parts/assemblies.  I go to File > Find References > Copy Files, which will copy all current bits and pieces to the new directory.

So all work is done within a project directory (such as "090713 Production") with no files being referenced anywhere outside of that directory (including Toolbox hardware).  This keeps things very simple, as well as creates a reference history of development for every project.  Very simple, very effective, never any lost parts/references/whatever.

 

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people governed by fear cannot value freedom.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Hi, kellnerp:

Thanks for your comment!  Here are my answers to your questions:

Que 1. I have to ask what the point is in doing this? The file extension determines the type of file. So adding the intelligence to the part number that one is an assembly and the other is a part is hard to fathom.

Ans 1. Prefix helps visualize type of documents.  Window Explorer may not always display extensions unless setup that way.

Que 2. What do you do when you have the same part modeled as an assembly and a part?

Ans 2.  Why would you have the same part modelled as both an assembly and a part?

Que 3.  What do you do with assembly documents that end up being parts such as would be the case with a weldment?

Ans 3.  A weldment should be better handled with part model approach (my understanding is SW is trying to stay away from using assembly approach).

Que 4.  What do you do when you have a purchased part that comes in as an assembly, like say a Bimba cylinder?

Ans 4.  I would model it as a part if I do not want to have physical simulation.  Otherwise, I would model it as a flexible assembly.

Que 5.  What if you have an assembly that is used as a layout? Or a part that is really just a few reference planes and surfaces?

Ans 5.  Why would anyone use an assembly as a layout for a part?  If you need a surface part, then you create a part model.

Que 6. Or even a part that behaves like an assembly such as a weldment with cut list?

Ans 6. A weldment is better handled with a part model with multi-bodies.

Best regards,

Alex

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Quote:

kellnerp - We don't only back up engineering files here. Acounting and Service dept. also need backing up.  So disc space is cheap but sheer volume of data is an issue. Also, back ups are off site so that if the building burns down we're not out to lunch.

Again, what shear volume? IT should be doing incremental backups. The only time there is volume is on that day when a full backup is scheduled.

This is getting into the reasons why engineering files should be on a separate server.

If you agree that disk space is cheap then so should backing up that disk space. If backup is the bottle neck to utilizing a disk, well..... ponder      
 

TOP
CSWP
BSSE

www.engtran.com
www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

As Theo' pointed out, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. What works for one discipline/company/person may be useless or nonsensical for another.

 

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

kelnerp, I agree with many of your points, especially about having a seperate Engineering server.  We had that, then we got an IT department... now we are peasants serving the mighty virtual machine.  We are not even allowed to defrag our discs anymore.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

I would only add one thought to all the disk space discussion.  The original file takes only as much space as needed, but PDMWorks IIRC, stores a change file at a small percent age the originals size. W/O a pdm program every time you save a new revision they are all 100% in size.  Correct me if I am wrong, because my information was based on a loosing effort to get PDMWorks installed at my new job 4 yrs ago. Still here and still flying w/o PDM. Thank God for back tapes!

BTW. I highly reccomend starting a lib directory for all your common-ish parts, templates and such.  Then write protect it so that no one "accidentally" changes the files.  

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Unless it has changed in the last version or two, PDMWorks stores a complete copy of the file rather than the difference from some reference file.

Eric

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

I tried to get SolidWorks to provide a file structure with 10,000+ commonly used parts with each seat back in 1999 to save all users from having this debate. My experience with part numbering systems where many different people have to interact with them is to use a 6 character semi-significant system based on item categories. Part number will be used by your customers to order replacement parts, by shipping to pull and send parts to the customer and by service when a customer brings in a damaged part from a product that is unknown by model and serial number. These people will spend the most time with a part numbering scheme once it is in place. The less the number of characters the less chance for typographical or reading error. If the parts are stored by category finding parts to pull is quicker. We have a customer with a license plate system and they come to me to find many of their parts that I originally created for them with our 6 character semi-significant system and store the description in Excel.

Reusing parts, assemblies and drawings can be considered lean engineering and will save time and money. Having Excel spread sheets with the part numbers listed by category will allow different people to find out if you have created a part and what the actual complete part number is.

I currently use a 28,000+ library of parts, assemblies and drawings and can find most part numbers in less than a minute. Many of these are low usage items that are several years old.
 

Ed Danzer
www.danzcoinc.com
www.dehyds.com

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Hi, EdDanzer:

What you described is a very old and inefficient flat filing technique.  You may want to talk to your IT group about PDM and database.

Best regards,

Alex

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Early on we tried Access and looked at PDM to find part numbers with and found the Excel method the fastest and easiest to teach to production people. As I stated in the earlier post design the system for those who will use it the most and total cost of ownership will be the lowest.
We have several assemblies with 1500+ part counts. Several years ago when we last reviewed PDM software the check in time and checkout time was much too long to be cost effective. Last month I did ask about PDM and there are still check in and checkout time penalties.

To determine how fast your companies "find a part system" is, do a test and look up a part that has not been used for 5 years. If it takes more than a minute it may not be any better than the flat file system.

Ed Danzer
www.danzcoinc.com
www.dehyds.com

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Hi, EdDanzer:

It is instantaneous if one knows what to look for.  It does not matter how old a part or assembly document are.  Believe or not, after I type key words, it takes less than a second to retrive document(s).

If you are familiar with database or commerial pdm, you will never go back the way you are doing right now.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

The reason I stated an old item is you may not remember much detail and a search could turn up thousands if hits like Google.

I have used search features in several software packages and continue to experiment with these systems. SolidWorks Explorer is an example of a system that can burn lots of time searching through thousands of files. We currently have over 28,000 SolidWorks files to search if you cannot refine where to search.

Our Excel system works better than the search function in Quick Books (a data base system) because a customer will ask me to find a part number for them after they have spent 15 minutes searching with Quick Books search function.

I'm aware our Excel system is not great but I'm not convinced there is a system so much better that we can spend much time and money replacing it. Our Excel system is used by the shop, purchasing and accounting. PDM is not something that other departments need to learn or have expensive licenses to access.

What I really want is a "Find" function not a "search" function.

Ed Danzer
www.danzcoinc.com
www.dehyds.com

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Quote:

As Theo' pointed out, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. What works for one discipline/company/person may be useless or nonsensical for another.

That is such a good piece of advice, I think it's worth repeating.

Joe
SW Office 2008 SP5.0
P4 3.0Ghz 3GB
ATI FireGL X1

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

project01-001-01
project01-002-01
project01-003-01
project01-003-02
project01-003-03

project number - part number - issue number

my master assembly would be project01-000-01

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Ray555,

How do you deal with reusing components on new projects?In other words let's say Project99 uses a couple of parts from other projects so that you have a BOM like:

Project99-001-01
Project05-000-03
Project67-079-01
Project99-002-06
...
etc.

Where is the benefit in this situation?

TOP
CSWP, BSSE
www.engtran.com  www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Thats correct.

wouldnt want to duplicate parts on the system

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Quote (kellnerp):

Where is the benefit in this situation?
Compared to what situation?

What do you see as the downside to Ray555's system?

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

This situation:

Quote:

CODE

Project99-001-01
Project05-000-03
Project67-079-01
Project99-002-06

What benefit does it have over:

CODE

Part001-01
Part000-03
Part079-01
Part002-06
And the project number in a custom property in the top level assembly? From that you can search the top level assembly related to a project and then generate a BOM and find all the parts in that project.

TOP
CSWP, BSSE
www.engtran.com  www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

My guess is that their business is such that they almost never reuse a part.  At best they make the occasional similar part by doing a save as and modify.  Then all of the parts for a project have the project number prefix, and anyone looking at a part number knows what project it is for.

This goes back to comments about different situations having different optimal systems.

Eric
 

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

EEnd,

He answered that he does duplicate parts from other projects:

Quote (Ray555):

Thats correct.

wouldnt want to duplicate parts on the system

I'm not disagreeing with

Quote:

As Theo' pointed out, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. What works for one discipline/company/person may be useless or nonsensical for another.
I'm trying to see it from his perspective. I'm trying to get the answer to the question: "What does prepending the project number do for him?"

Q. Why don't you wear snowshoes on the beach?
A. Because it makes it really hard to play volleyball.

Q. Why don't you wear flip flops outside when there is a foot of snow?
A. Because it makes your toes fall off when you go to play beach volleyball.
smile

TOP
CSWP, BSSE
www.engtran.com  www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

lol ... As long as they are the only bits that fall off.

I can't speak for Ray555, but I give parts descriptive names when designing them, but prepend the name with a project number to distinguish them from other (similarly named) parts. Once happy with the overall assy design, and while creating the drawings, I will add a -partnumber after the project number. The drawing sheet number (without description) matches the part number.

Each to their own.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

CBL

It would help to know what kind of environment you are working in.
  • 20 engineers? 1 engineer?
  • Job shop (many customers)? OR Manufacturing shop (internal customer)?
  • PDM? ERP?
  • Over 50% reuse?
  • Strict revision control, ECRs, etc.  or not?
flip
 

TOP
CSWP, BSSE
www.engtran.com  www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Small company (1 owner + 7 employees) designing and building spectrometry related instruments. We have a standard range of products, but customers often need custom accessories.

  • 1 'engineer' ... me
  • Neither (but closer to job shop) ... Customers are usually universities, or independent science labs
  • No PDM or ERP
  • Probably less than 2% re-usage
  • Duhhh ... wot's an ECR lol
Other companies I've worked for have had strict systems, but no need for that here. Like I said above, what suits one, will not necessarily suit another.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

CBL

You just illustrated a simple fact of cognition. There is still a vast divide between the way humans think and the way machines operate. In your system the human mind retains, organizes and operates upon information in the appearance and location of filenames. It depends on the fact that the human mind quickly recognizes patterns that computers cannot without a great deal of difficulty. It also depends on the fact that the human mind recognizes information by simultaneously comparing what is coming in through the eye with what has happened before. A computer must compare any incoming information with a full search of it's memory in order to classify that information.

One of the side effects of this is that when a human goes back to something that was done in the past it will frequently happen that the human will have to "retrace" steps to a certain extent to come back to an understanding of what is being observed. A machine will be less likely to need to do this.

So when you see the word project1 in front of a filename it helps the human mind to reconstruct the context in which that filename should be viewed. There may be other information contained within the file (like custom properties) that you cannot see when doing a simple directory listing. There is a parallel cache of information in your head that is associated with the term "project1" that you can quickly reference and classify a particular file.

When two engineers are working together there is still a good chance that project1 will mean the same thing to both. But when 20 engineers are working together there is little chance that "project1" will mean the same thing because not all of the 20 will have worked in the context of that project or in a particular area of that project.
Some engineers, over time, will start remembering actual numbers when in the middle of a project and attribute to them the same associativity that you do with meaninful (to humans) filenames.  

In the good old days of paper drawings in a file one could generally view both the drawing number and the description simultaneously when viewing the title block. Because MicroSoft and most OS will not display anything more than the filename in a directory listing humans gravitate towards meaningful file names. Interestingly the Commodore Amiga actually provided for descriptions to be listed along with filenames. SolidWorks has attempted to rectify this by allowing thumbnail icons with filenames, the drawback being slow listing of large directories. If MicroSoft had allowed for a file description to be listed in the directory listing we might all view this subject completely differently.
pc2
 

TOP
CSWP, BSSE
www.engtran.com  www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

PDM with non-intelligent item number is the way to go.  Go to your grocery stores, and you will see all items bar coded with non-intelligent item numbers.  I am surprised that so many people still use project based systems.  Project based systems are not object-oriented. But industries are heading to object-oriented at full speed.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

No it isn't, rgrayclamps.  Neener neener.

This argument is clearly showing that one size does not fit all.  My system, as illustrated above, is the best I've found for my situation, and certainly better than any of the above suggestions.  By the way, nothing in my office resembles a grocery store's means of inventory tracking, nor the requisite need for such a thing.

 

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people governed by fear cannot value freedom.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Rgrayclamps,
If you look into bar UPC bar codes they are not a true license plate numbering system, those numbers have some significance to them. http://www.upccode.net/faq.html#q1 will provide more information.

As I stated prior the people who interact with the part numbers after the engineer is done with the design are the customers you need to focus on making successful with part numbering and storage systems. When you go to the store like items are usually grouped together for customers to find and compare products. Inventory and part numbering systems that facilitate this system are the lowest cost to operate and have the best fill accuracy.

Ed Danzer
www.danzcoinc.com
www.dehyds.com

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Hi, Theophilus:

Could you list major functions that your system can do while other PDM systems can not?

I read your previous comments, and I just notice that your revision scheme is very inefficient.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

"PDM with non-intelligent item number is the way to go"
Only for some companies! I have used and been instrumental in setting up such systems in companies which have needed them, but not all companies do.

Some people are right-handed, some are left-handed.
Some use a knife and fork to eat, some just a fork, others use chopsticks, and yet others their bare hands.

There is no correct or incorrect method.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Hi, EdDanzer:

Items at groceries or warehouse are not grouped together by their item numbers.  Rather, they are grouped together by their location properties (Custom properties in SW).

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Quote (rgrayclamps):

Could you list major functions that your system can do while other PDM systems can not?

Theo' isn't saying that his system can do more than a PDM system can do. He's using a system that suits the way he thinks and the products he designs ... without the overheads of a PDM system. The point is that his system works for him ... and that is all that is needed.

One mans 'efficiency' is another's burden.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Quote (Ed):

As I stated prior the people who interact with the part numbers after the engineer is done with the design are the customers you need to focus on making successful with part numbering and storage systems.

Ed, that is a very important point.  That is exactly how our system is designed, for ease of use by the end user.  Somewhere along the line, there has to be some intelligence.  Either the intelligence is built into the system, or the intelligence is in the people who use the system.  I'm a designer at a manufacturing facility.  My drawings need to be easily accessed by our diemakers and diesetters.  I can't control their intelligence, so the intelligence is built into the file naming system that they need to use.  This works very well for us, but it might not work best for everybody.

When I'm at the grocery store, if I can't find the milk, I don't ask what isle the UPC# XXX is in, I simply as for the "milk."  So I don't quite think the grocery store analogy makes much sense.  IMHO.

Joe
SW Office 2008 SP5.0
P4 3.0Ghz 3GB
ATI FireGL X1

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Quote (rgrayclamps):

Could you list major functions that your system can do while other PDM systems can not?

I read your previous comments, and I just notice that your revision scheme is very inefficient.

CorBlimeyLimey already addressed this.  I'm not in competition with a PDM system here.  My goal is file efficient file organization.  What's the point in having the nightmare implementation of PDM in a one-man band?  I don't get it.

You say my revision scheme is very inefficient?  In which regard?  Hard drive space?  I don't get that, either, since hard drive space costs almost nothing.  Besides, I've had clients who have requested we go back to a prior revision of a project to branch into a different direction.  This system has worked out very well for that sort of thing.

 

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people governed by fear cannot value freedom.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Hi, Theophilus:

That is fine.  We have different understanding on revision.  You talk about revision of projects while I talk about revision of drawing documents.  I try to follow "ASME Y14.35M-1997, REVISION OF ENGINEERING DRAWINGS AND ASSOCIATED DOCUMENTS".

Your following statements make your revision scheme inefficient.

***************************************************
When I bump up a revision of a project, I go to my top-level Drawing or Assembly document--the document which references all parts/assemblies.  I go to File > Find References > Copy Files, which will copy all current bits and pieces to the new directory.
***************************************************

When I make a change, I pinpoint which documents (part or assembly, or both) need to be changed, and only revise those documents.  Projects have nothing to do with my revision.  I do not know if there is a new revision to ASME Y14.35M-1997.  According to ASME Y14.35M, only drawing documents have revision.

Thanks for sharing how your system works.

 

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

Wow, that's a significant difference in how we work (and therefore the needs in our particular work environments).

For instance, I'll bump up my whole project in date-related terms, but I'll rarely work on each document intensively in such a revision--only what's necessary.  Regardless, I know the directory at the bottom of my project list is 1) the latest revision, chronologically, and 2) has none of the legacy files that were dropped from use from the previous revision cluttering the new directory.

Also, I rarely make drawings with the sorts of things I design, since the geometry so necessarily relies on the 3D surfaces to be deciphered accurately.  As such, the ASME standards are largely irrelevant for my line of work.  But this does require that my vendors (prototype, production) are able to work with raw 3D data instead of 2D drawings.

I think when you have multiple minds working on a single project, PDM begins to make sense, as do ECNs and all the other overhead involved in properly tracking documents and revision control.  I look at this as inefficient, since more work must go into labor not directly applied to design itself, but the control of the design.  In that sense, I'm less encumbered by non-productive activities than I would be in a multiple-user office environment and therefore have a greater percentage of time available for design.  (Of course the truth is I must also allocate time to my own IT, purchases, client meetings, etc. that might have otherwise been handled by other personnel in such a multiple-user office environment.)

Different strokes for different folks.

 

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people governed by fear cannot value freedom.

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

So [!]revisions[/i] is one aspect of file management. Instead of arguing how to do it, we should be looking at what has to be accomplished and then what can the SW tool do out of the box, what can MSoft's OS do out of the box and then go on to implementation.

As a bare minimum:
  • What exactly does "ASME Y14.35M-1997, REVISION OF ENGINEERING DRAWINGS AND ASSOCIATED DOCUMENTS" require?
    • As far as file naming?
    • As far as directory structure?
    • As far as what should be on the drawing?
    • As far as what should be in the model and assy?
  • What do Theophilus and CBL require of their systems?
    • As far as file naming?
    • As far as directory structure?
    • As far as what should be on the drawing?
    • As far as what should be in the model and assy?
  • What does someone in a manufacturing environment require?
    • As far as file naming?
    • As far as directory structure?
    • As far as what should be on the drawing?
    • As far as what should be in the model and assy?
neutral

SolidWorks pretty much requires that there not be duplicate filenames anywhere in the folder trees that SW can access. Common sense dictates further that there should not be two identical parts with different filenames.

MSoft will not allow duplicate filenames in the same folder.
MSoft also slows down if there are more than, say, 1,000 files in a single folder although I believe this can be adjusted.
MSoft will not show any information besides a filename and a file type in a directory listing.

TOP
CSWP, BSSE
www.engtran.com  www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

The store analogy has to do with finding parts stored by insignificant part numbering. Unless you have the part number you have no idea where to start. I am aware many companies do this and they are totally dependent on software to find anything. If you are in a high production fully automated (big bucks) environment this works. If you ever do prototyping, repair or do not have automated storage storing by insignificant number would be like going to the store to find what you need with thing randomly mixed on the shelf. Milk might by dog food or diapers.

We are a small company, I design in SolidWorks, order materials, machine, weld assembly and test many of these products. We do repair and sell parts as well. This make our requirements different, even more demanding than most companies as we must be competitively priced and make a profit on commodity items like fasteners.

We use a new part number for new non interchangeable parts and assemblies instead of revision numbers at the end of a part number to eliminate customer confusion when ordering a part. I doubt any of the standards bodies address customer interaction as part of their requirements.

In these difficult times figuring out how to save money should be more important than following some ASME, SAE, ISO ect. Standard that may put you out of business.

Trying to have SolidWorks do everything may not be the best choice.

Ed Danzer
www.danzcoinc.com
www.dehyds.com

RE: How do you guys organize your files?

More like a soup can analogy where you have numbers on the cans and the labels get ripped off.

There is one big difference with SW. There are tools available within the SW install that allow a part to be found if it has any kind of description. A part should get a description at creation time. That simple rule applies to a job shop or a big mfg. concern. SW Explorer can access that description. MSoft's Explorer can't and you shouldn't be using it to find files anyway.

Even if you are a job shop, chances are you have some way of tracking parts other than a directory listing. Perhaps a spreadsheet on the side to facilitate unique file names and numbers. If I was a job shop I would keep track of how much time was in each file.  

TOP
CSWP, BSSE
www.engtran.com  www.niswug.org

"Node news is good news."

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources