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Resume tips
2

Resume tips

RE: Resume tips

Those "boilerplate" phrases sound like they belong on a Dilbert meeting Bingo card...

I agree with you, HgTX. That example they gave sounded dumbed-down.

Liz

RE: Resume tips

Sounds like something a 10-yr old might write.  The one potentially concrete accomplishment doesn't even have a strong cause-effect relationship; "I did some surveys, so our sales increased." Duh??

But, this is the typical pablum that tech writers insist is what we're supposed to be writing.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Resume tips

The example sounds like a perfectly good cover letter for a fuzzy job like marketing research.

RE: Resume tips

This more sounds like for a cover letter than a resume.  The cover letter is where you would give your resume a "human voice". Funny that the writer did not mention a cover letter.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Resume tips

Well that would be because most online or even email submittals leave little room for cover letters.

I went to 3 places in person last week wanting to drop off a resume at the local office.  Each one said we don't take resume's it's all done centrally through our website.  The websites sometimes don't even let you upload your entire resume, you have to 'build it' on their site, so applying for a job takes several hours.

Sorry, pent up frustration.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Resume tips


I don't mind the humanizing paragraph, but the example seems a bit too chatty and wordy.  I'd put that stuff in a Profile paragraph and do a bulleted or list version, not a conversational paragraph.  I recently added a Profile section to my own resume and thankfully avoided all of the corporatespeak examples.

On the resume topic, I was also told to remove the date from my graduation and any work experience more than 10 to 15 years old.  The excuse was, "we don't want the person doing the hiring to think you are too old."
 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Resume tips

Cass, especially in the work you do, age brings a certain 'intellectual patina' that should enhance your desirability to an employer with more than one neuron.

Leave in the dates.  

Find a new source for resume advice.


 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Resume tips

Sounds to me like she has it backward.

Yes, my resumes do get return calls and interview appointments.

RE: Resume tips

Well, actually found time to read the article.

A few months back my sister in law, who supposedly has written resumes for a proffession, reworked mine.  I swear she replaced my 'human language' with about half the boiler plate phrases listed as "worst possible".

I give up.  Everyone who has an opinion has different advice.  Compounded by the fact you may have 2 or 3 distinct audiences.  HR, manager & technical 'peer'.  In some cases the manager may be the technical peer but not always.

Most people on this site probably fall into the technical group, with a fair spattering of dual role managers.  So that's the advice/viewpoint you'll probably get here.

You probably wont get HR type advice, which is what the author is.  So no wonder general opinion of the article is low.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Resume tips

(OP)
Regarding the dates--the advice you received was spot-on.  They reveal too much about your age, which is no one's business.  If there is vital stuff in those positions that you don't want to use, consider a functional rather than chronological resume.  (Debate on functional resumes can be found elsewhere in this forum.)

I know I keep talking about my mother, but I've had a front-seat view of her job searches for the last 15 years (and she's visiting this week).  She had her first involuntary job loss when she was around 50 (company folded).  Took off the dates, removed the first several jobs (she'd changed fields anyway, so they were no longer very relevant), touched up the hair dye, no one knew she wasn't 40ish.  (Women have a wee advantage here, because so many dye their hair just because they feel like it and not just because they're grey, so even if it's an obvious dye job, no one has to know why.  On the other hand, women get considered "old" at an earlier age, so it's not much of an advantage.)

When she lost another job at 60, though, passing for 10 years younger didn't help much because that just put her back at 50, which had been too old ten years earlier.  But at your age, Cass, it's worth doing what you can to avoid being on the losing end of age-related prejudice.

Hg
 

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Resume tips


Thanks, Hg.

Now where did I put my coupon for $500 off for my first Titan skin treatment with the Juvederm bonus package.  It's around here somewhere..........

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Resume tips

Interesting that the first line of their suggested "human voice approach", contains poor grammar.

RE: Resume tips

(OP)
It struck me as odd, but I can't actually pin down an error.  "Who's" for "who is" isn't wrong, and sounds fine when spoken out loud, but looks very strange.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Resume tips

My choice:

"I'm a Marketing Researcher with a driven curiousity about people's buying choices. My use of consumer surveys and online-forum analysis uncovered areas for product improvement that directly led to a 20 percent sales growth in the ensuing six months..."

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Resume tips

Don't send me any CVs this woman writes. My bin is full enough.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Resume tips

I think some of the boilerplate blurbs are a little cliche but are better than the "humanizing" paragraph... at least for a technical resume.  But then again, I don't do any hiring.

Also, what about the non-technical HR people who are looking for specific buzz words?  No buzz words = trash?

-Dustin
Professional Engineer
Certified SolidWorks Professional
Certified COSMOSWorks Designer Specialist
Certified SolidWorks Advanced Sheet Metal Specialist
 

RE: Resume tips

No one would take the time to read the example they put there.  Too wordy.  I think short bulleted points are best but I agree with avoiding the use of cut and paste cliche words.  I would rather see a bulleted list of very short project descriptions than general and overused "I'm a good worker" type phrases that anyone can put on a resume without anything to back them up.

RE: Resume tips

My observation is that most hiring managers do not have time to read an entire resume.  If they do not see something interesting while skimming the top half of the first page, they move on.  This would be death for a wordy resume.

RE: Resume tips

First time I read "...and have helped my employers' beards grow dramatically as a result" instead of "...and have helped my employers' brands grow dramatically as a result".

Personally I think measureable achievements, like the length of a beard, are much more meaningful. Pictures of happy customers looking like members of ZZ Top are optional.  

corus

RE: Resume tips

Casseopeia:

Sorry, I have to give you my conflicting opinion on the issue of age.

When I review a resume I like to know the person's age.  I use it to correlate with experience, rate of advancement / promotion, and how to establish fair compensation and benefits - notably vacation entitlement - that are in line with industry norms should things proceed to an offer.  (I believe it would be nothing more than a slap in the face to offer a 40+ year old person 2 weeks vacation, for example.)

You are as old as you are, and you have the experience that you have.  Match it with someone that wants exactly that.  There is nothing to hide.

I don't know...maybe south of the border the employment market is much more ruthless and cut-throat.  That's really sad, but I will admit, that's why I haven't moved there yet.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Resume tips

SNORGY - I agree with the vacation comment.  A company wanted me and my 30 years experience but would only give 2 weeks IAW HR policy.  I turned down a six figure salary because I wasn't going to go from 4 back to 2 weeks.  A friend of mine eventaully filled the position (its a small world I live in) and they did give him 3 weeks vacation to start.

RE: Resume tips

(OP)
There is PLENTY to hide.  40 is fine.  No one needs to hide 40 (at least not in engineering).  60 is another story.  (And 50 is, obviously, somewhere in between.)  Even though the young whippersnappers probably won't stick around in the job for more than a few years, people doing the hiring like to imagine they will, so they prefer not to hire someone they think will want to retire in just a few years.

And for you doing the hiring, someone's age is none of your business, no more than their marital status or hobbies.  What you offer them should have to do with their job description and their experience, which they will have on the resume.  It shouldn't make any difference to you whether someone is 35 or 55.  And if it does, that's exactly why ages should not be reflected on the resume.

For every one of you who might want to offer someone a little extra for being venerable, there are more people who would want to cut them out, not invest in them, etc.

Also, even the notion that someone who is older deserves more can be a handicap in a tight job environment.  "I'm going to choose A over B because B is going to want more" is not an uncommon thought in the hiring process.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Resume tips

I think that really depends.  If you haven't done much and aren't that good, then, yes, maybe you should hide your age.  However, given that most resumes are chronological, it's not that hard to figure out approximate age.

At least, where I am, age is relatively irrelevant, since no one can predict past about 1 day into the future, so what does it really matter whether you're an old geeezer, so long as you can do the job for the foreseeable future?  Is training an issue, no, because with someone that experienced, they shouldn't need much training.  There used to be a notion that you wanted young engineers to get the payback for all the training you were going to invest into the new employee.  But, we know that's mostly hogwash; the typical company invests almost nothing in training, so there is no payback period to look for.

The notion that someone might retire in 20, or 10, or even 5 yrs, and that it's a big impact to the prospective employer is absurd in today's job environment.  No one is guaranteeing life-time employment, so anyone who's looking at an applicant's age as a detriment for long-term employment is smoking something unhealthy for their brain.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Resume tips

(OP)
It's absurd, but it's there.  Age-discrimination laws came about because they were needed.

You can't always get the age from the job experience.  You can get the minimum age (so no one has to fear being perceived as a kid if they list considerable experience), but not the maximum age.  Earlier jobs can be left off as no longer relevant, especially if one has had a career change.

For now, I still have dates on my resume.  If I'm looking for a job after 50 (and I'm sure I will be), you bet I'll be taking the dates off my degrees.  My engineering job history starts at age 29, so I shouldn't need to take the dates off the jobs.

Some people may not be worried.  That's fine.  But it's not right to tell someone else with confidence that there's nothing to be worried about.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Resume tips

I've seen age discrimination in the work place first hand and a few second hand anecdotes too.

Back in the UK they'd had a contractor off & on for something like 10-11 years or so but the then director refused to hire him direct when we started to expand a little.  He was in his late 50's and his age definitely came into it, it probably wasn't' the only issue but was definitely a factor.  Truth be told he probably should have been given my job when I first had it.

Here in the States I've had a colleague in his 50's that was laid off apply to a local defense company.  He was rejected.  While it wasn't explicitly stated a friend of a friend type deal basically said they had too many staff that would be retiring in the next few years and weren't interested in hiring any new people near retirement age.

So, if you really are up there I'd consider leaving it off.  Of course, there may be an argument of do you really want to work for somewhere that would reject you based on those grounds, then again in this economy the answer may still be yes please.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Resume tips

HgTX:

Your points are well-taken.

However, I was approaching the issue of age from the angle of using it as one of the intangibles to consider in order to be fair to the applicant / candidate, not as a factor to be considered in an age-discriminatory way.  Also, if the information isn't offered, I don't ask for it; neither do I "round file" the resume.  Still, for example, where I work, the baseline annual salary that sets the industry norms is, by and large, a straight line funcion of the number of years since graduating with an undergraduate degree.  On that basis alone, age becomes relevant.  It also cascades into ripple effects through the organization after hiring: if the person is paid what is perceived to be too low relative to age, it sends one bad message, whereas if the person is paid too high, it sends another.  These kinds of messages can become the hushed topics of coffee-station banter that ultimately spell the demise of morale, etc., much like an untreated malignancy.

My only point is that, at least in engineering, compensation should "respect" (as opposed to "punish") age and its corresponding experience.  I think the vast majority of professionals among us have made advancements and reached achievements throughout our careers.

I have no problem with rewarding young "star performers" with "star pay" or with letting the specific requirements of the job set the compensation rate, leaving age irrelevant.  But, say if the job involves in-service field inspection of all of the bubble caps at every tray in twelve amine contactors, I might consider it unfair to ask a sixty-year-old to do it if there is a thirty-year-old available applying for the same job.  It might be more appropriate to hire them both and have the sixty-year-old tell the thirty-year-old what to look for during his climb.

I do not at all support discrimination on the basis of age, unless age can reasonably be expected to be a factor to consider in relation to the job.  However, neither do I support an applicant's hiding it just because it's "nobody's business".

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Resume tips

(OP)
"Hiding it"?  Like I "hide" my marital status, hobbies, sexual predilections, and names of past pets?  Something that's not required to be there is not "hidden", it's just absent.

There may be a tradition of putting dates on resumes, but that's all it is.  There's also been a tradition of including marital status and non-work activities, but that tradition has pretty much died.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Resume tips

HgTX:

I apologize...

I might have taken your comment, "There is PLENTY to hide.", (wrt age) out of context.

I certainly meant no offense nor harm.

Regards,

SNORGY.

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