I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
(OP)
This is my first job, my first redundancy; I have never imagined I'd leave the company of being made redundant. We're not picking up any work, over 1/3rd of people have to go, and more than ten people have already gone. In my department they only want to keep the manager, and everyone else has to go, fair enough, all clear and straight forward, but somehow I just can't accept it. It happened all too quickly.
I have been looking for jobs (again) since I heard the news, I know it's a good chance for me to finally move on, but so far I have got rejected by two companies and am still waiting for response from many others.
How should I look at myself now? A loser? Although In the past years I have got very good feedbacks from both my colleagues and clients regarding my work, my confidence is slowly ebbing away... I start to doubt my ability... After getting a good class MEng degree I thought I was worth something; now at age of 25 I'm unemployed!
Is there something wrong with my CV? Or my limited experience is holding me back? Or perhaps, I should change directions...?
Help me through the misery please...
x
P.S if a similar post already exist, please let me know and I shall close this one
Thanks
I have been looking for jobs (again) since I heard the news, I know it's a good chance for me to finally move on, but so far I have got rejected by two companies and am still waiting for response from many others.
How should I look at myself now? A loser? Although In the past years I have got very good feedbacks from both my colleagues and clients regarding my work, my confidence is slowly ebbing away... I start to doubt my ability... After getting a good class MEng degree I thought I was worth something; now at age of 25 I'm unemployed!
Is there something wrong with my CV? Or my limited experience is holding me back? Or perhaps, I should change directions...?
Help me through the misery please...
x
P.S if a similar post already exist, please let me know and I shall close this one
Thanks
Cutie





RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
You're already too young to be thinking that you were going to work for the same company for the rest of your life. No company is going to "take care" of you, like family. That's the bad news. The good news is that means that layoffs, today, have little stigma attached, they're simply a pure economics question.
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Use it as an opportunity to live in a new place, get a raise, a new industry with new connections, etc.
You'll be good. I'm only 27 and I'm at my 5th place since I started my career 10 years ago. I had one I was at like 4 years, but got laid off like 4-5 times, and my unemployment was drained. So I moved to another for like 9 months, they didn't want to give me a raise and I got an offer to double my salary so I left there. Got laid off from the next one after a year and a half. Now I've been where I'm at about 2.5 years.
Some people have commented on my "jumping" around, but I explain to them why and it's not so bad.
Good luck with the job hunt.
James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Unless you plan to die where you stand, keep pressing on.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Metaphorically, my late uncle would have put it this way:
It's definitely not the end of the world. Just the end of an early chapter in your book. Keep writing, starting with this new chapter. The book gets better.
Being terminated for any reason sucks. In the downsizing game, if numbers have to come up, sometimes yours is one of the numbers that comes up.
The first time I was ever "let go" (laid off) at about your age, I went to the kind lady in Human Resources and asked, "What do I do now?". Her reply was quite straightforward and compassionate: "That's *your* problem. I have never lost *my* job.".
That sure took the sting out of it.
The biggest source of encouragement I can offer you comes from your own post. You have looked at the facts and have already started examining yourself and how *you* can improve. You have begrudged nobody and have not spoken ill of your former employer. That's exactly the thing that ultimately successful people do. However, try to keep words like "loser" out of your vocabulary during your period of introspection.
Surround yourself with friends, family and colleagues, dust yourself off, never doubt yourself or your ability, and move on.
Best of luck to you. If I can help in any way, let me know.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Knock the doors of every company in your locality and not wait for ads. This is more true for less experienced people or entry level jobs.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
In the current climate, and the situation you describe, there's no real shame in having been laid off.
Also, given some of your other tales about the place, you may be better off without them (though the financial implications right now may not make it seem like it).
You'll probably get a bunch of rejections, and likely even more complete lack of responses.
Just keep plodding away. There have been quite a few threads about tips for job hunting etc, maybe you'll find something of help in one of those.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
You need to reinforce in your own mind that you are not defined by your job. You are the same person whether you are a bartender or working with a team of engineers on the next major technological discovery. You have not changed, only your circumstances.
When you are not actively interviewing or mailing out resumes, find something to do that makes you feel good about yourself. I recommend any physical activity and volunteer work. If you can, squeeze in some self-improvement to make yourself more marketable like taking classes at the local community college. Or just do it for fun.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I wouldn't worry about it, companies are looking for THE candidate in this economy because they feel they can be ultra-picky.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
There are definitely jobs in the power indsutry but I don't know how transferable your skills are - mine were pretty transferrable the other way into O&G. Polish up your CV!
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Looking for a job is a journey to me. You can be miserable or you can have fun with it.
There are support groups out there that focus on job search, so seek them out, to get your attitude on right. When your with people that have the same perdicament, they can easily pull you up from the misery you are experiencing.
Even when you contract you can make up your mind if you want to work there and if you don't, who cares, it was a contract job anyway. You finished the work and now for the next assignment.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
KENAT ... I know you've finally received your US citizenship but, come on ... "tuff" ... shame on you.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
ScottyUK, I'm willing to relocate (except London and North Island) and change directions, I have spent an entire week working on my CV, it looks pretty good, so is your company looking for a young, motivated, intelligent and hard working engineer? :) If so, I shall forward my CV to you... :) (It doesn't hurt to ask...)
controlsdude, I have registered with agencies, but even the agencies admit that the market is rather quiet at the moment, but I will keep trying.
CorBlimeyLimey, yes indeed, it's not the end of the world, after a bit of shopping, I have cheered up a lot and not giving up on looking for jobs.
x
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I moved to London at the end of the last big recession in the 90's. I promise it's not somewhere to dismiss without trying if there is a good position with a good employer - people who I'd have sworn would hate the place have loved it and vice-versa. Personally I hated it but I don't think you really know until you try. It was an invaluable step in my career looking back, so even though I didn't stay it was worth being there for a while.
I don't mind having a look over your CV, I might be able to add a few ideas which would attract a recruiter's eye and could possibly give you a few hints on companies to try so you can make your own approach. If you know what the unadvertised vacancy is then it is much easier to tailor your appraoch to suit.
Just need to figure out how to establish contact without breaking the site rules about email addresses!
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
As for holdiays, your mileage may vary. While I get one less week of vacation than my wife, she actually has way fewer days off than me, as I have more holidays off.
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Less "vacation" typically 10 days when you start though many places increase over time.
Perhaps slightly more 'holidays' (bank holidays in the UK) but again it depends on employer.
Unless you have it in your contract in many places there are few explicit rules over severance pay/redundancy pay etc. Many states are 'right to work' or have "at will employment" which basically means they can let you go with no notice without giving any reason. In practice most engineering firms do seem to give some kind of severance but in many cases don't have to.
You'll also likely work more hours, I worked 37.5 in the UK though often an extra couple. In the US it's usually 40 minimum often with more pressure/expectation to do more.
I stress that it does vary by employer and if you have a contract or it's a union place etc. but the above are the trends as I perceive them.
I moved here because my wife is a US citizen, not to chase work.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
One of the things I discovered is that it pays to both chase up the oppportunities that present themselves, and to know who you're dealing with in terms of the recruitment process.
I gained an interview with a consultancy firm as I followed up the application, the HR department had initially binned my application as unsuitable, but in the follow up conversation I managed to get my details passed onto an actual engineer, and then got the interview.
The bottom line is, the recruitment process can often be filled with hurdles that seem unpassable unless you can find ways around them. Your applications may be in the same category, and unfortunately theres often no way of knowing why you weren't deemed as suitable. If you understand this, then you can work to get around the hurdles, and ultimately, to your next job.
As I recall, your employer wasn't the best at guidance, mentoring or supervision so you now have a great opportunity to dedicate all your time to finding a better one.
Good luck with it all, and remember, its often a far better opportunity than you may think at the moment. Mine certainly was.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Cutiee,
Don't punish your self.
Most of us have been through it.
Stick in there; you are still young enough to read about this in future history books.
Chris
SolidWorks 09, CATIA V5
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Firstly, since you're based in the UK, it is the job which is made redundant, not the person. I know it's easier to say "I" got made redundant (and i'm guilty of it too) but you mustn't confuse the two!. You are definitely not a loser. "I" got made redundant when i was 30 and whilst it came as a shock (The whole shop floor was told 3 days before the xmas break!) it is NOT the end of the world. In the end it was a good thing for me but you need to remain positive and use the time wisely.
Do you qualify for a redundancy payment, if not then you need to work quickly. If this is a collective redundancy situation (i.e. more than 20 posts, which it sounds like) then by law the company is required to give you 90 days notice, otherwise you are entitled to 1 week notice for every year worked.
If you have been continuously employed for two years by the date your notice expires, you are allowed a reasonable amount of time off during your notice period to look for another job or arrange training to help you find another job
How long you can take will depend on your circumstances. If you attend an interview or two and do not take excessive amounts of travelling time, then this is likely to be reasonable. You should ask your employer what arrangements have been made to allow this.
When i got made redundant they offered us the services of an external adviser for things like CV construction, interview technique (we all get rusty) and sourcing training. Take advantage of any help offered.
Have you considered contract work? - E&I engineers are generally sought after, try contacting some of the agencies like Matchtech or Gold Group (two that i've used in the past) to see what sort of work they might have. Some are prepared to "employ" you under an umbrella type arrangement if you're unsure about setting up on your own.
Use this as an opportunity - and remember (as others have said) that being laid off / made redundant is just part of the landscape now. Everyone is likely to experience it at some point in their lives, there are no "jobs for life" anymore!
Kind regards, HM
No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I sent out about 80 applications (significantly less than my first job search) before I found my second job. Having some experience and a better cover letter and CV also helped. From 80 applications I was invited to 8 different interviews and 4 companies made an offer.
Now, on my third job search I've sent away 15-20 applications. No one has showed interest yet.
My first two job searches were specifically aimed at the automotive industry, and both were at times when there weren't many jobs on offer.
Don't be too disappointed with not getting a job after sending away two applications. Just do what I'm doing - be persistant and keep sending them out till you find a job. Simple. Depressing? At times. As one of the previous posters said, treat your job search like a 9-5 job and you'll eventually find something.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
It is very sparse out there.
9 months ago I had 5 job offers in two weeks, now I am struggling to get an interview.
Because they can, the employers are being very fussy about candidates ticking all the boxes of their job requirements. Make sure that you justify each and every point in your CV or cover letter.
Good luck.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Or they might know that someone is getting ready to hire and have not put that requirment for an engineer on that street. That way you get the jump on all the competition.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Cutiee, don't feel bad about being unemployed due to circumstances beyond your control. The economy is in historically bad shape, allowing employers to have a large talent pool to choose from. Search for jobs, but don't let it consume all your time.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
No it's not the end of the world. I believe that's scheduled for 2012. With a bit of luck and a whole lot of finagling, you can get your unemployment benefits to last that long so you never have to worry about work again.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
corus
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
'they decided to leverage their strategic objectives away from your aspirational alignment'
Heh. That made me laugh. I'll have to remember that one. My favorite answer to a silly interview questions is:
'What is your weakest point as an employee?'
'Well I'm so attractive that I tend to be distracting to other employees'
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
The British pound will still stretch a long way in places like New Zealand if you want somewhere english-speaking, and even further if you don't!
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I would like to second a lot of what has been said here. I lost my first job after 6 months. I wasn't laid off, I was fired. This was a blow to my ego, but I got over it. It took me about 5 more months to find a new job, but I did. Being laidoff during a recession holds no shame. So, what's that very british saying, "keep your pecker up"? I think if you said that in the states you'd get slapped, but I've been told it's acceptable on your side of the pond.
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Fe
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Not sure where I got that from, but is very common in my "mind". But me taking credit for the originator were dashed once I googled for it! I may have picked it up from English cricket commentators!
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/216550.html
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
After getting settled in Ontario, my wife was attending a Catholic church and we got to know the priest fairly well. One day the priest was unloading some of his personal problems on her and after a while she told him to "keep his pecker up".
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
How many meals did you miss before you even heard of the company that laid you off?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Corus, I was told similar, now I had my first redundancy, at least I'm prepared for next time...
Mgtrp, I don't get redundancy pay at all, because worked less than 2 years, I will be all right for a year or so without a job, but I really would like to have a job to prove myself worthwhile :s
lol, KirbyWan, I have never heard 'keep your pecker up', maybe they don't say that to ladies... 'keep your chin up' is the saying, I have been told by many :)
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
2nd time, i was "fired." boss's sons didn't like me. apparently, i didn't work well with them. i was elated, happy, and content that i was leaving a company chock full of imbeciles. i learned alot of about myself, too. maybe that was a lesson the good Lord was trying to teach me.
don't worry about it. you'll be fine. you're not the first, you won't be the last, and you're not part of a few. it is what it is. the only way to not get fired is to work for yourself. just keep looking and stay positive.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
- Get uo in the morning with a sense of purpose.
- Check you emails, follow-up on any lead ASAP
- Send email and CV out to recruiters and companies.
- Research companies that you mihjt be interested in.
- Plan on spending 12 to 18 hours per day searching for a job.
- Linkedin.com.
- Post your CV to online databases.
- Are you a member of a technical society IET, IEEE etc.? if so, network with other members.
Plan ahead- even after you obtain a job, keep your CV updated and handy... you never know.[li] Join some professional online networks, such as
What do you like to do, your hobbies, etc.? Can you make some moolah doing this.
Writing an article for a trade journal get you a lot of exposure.
Think positive, keep smiling.
Vita sine litteris mors est.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Just keep plugging away.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
You don't need to discuss the state of the world and all of the small talk that goes with it, but just a follow up, such as 'Have you received the application? Is there any more information that you'd require for the applicaton?' and so on can help. If you don't do this, and they don't call back, you have no idea on why you may not have been successful, and even if they say no when you talk to them, at least you have some feedback on what else to work on.
If you're mainly dealing with a HR department, see if you can get to talk to someone actually doing the job, or at least related to the position advertised. This way you can at least ensure that you may have more of a chance than HR incorrectly binning your application. HR generally knows nothing about what engineering does, so at least discussing the position with them, or a more relevant person, can always help.
Finally, one of the best books on the subject is Richard Bolles' "What Color Is Your Parachute". It has a lot of info on how to use contacts and head in the right direction.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
One thing I can't quite figure out is:
Lots of the recruitment agencies I have registered with were recommended by my managers/colleagues and ex-colleagues, they were saying all those agencies tried to get them jobs, and they were actually annoyed by them, but somehow when I got in touch with those agencies, they just didn't seem to have anything for me, or never get back to me.
Well, the reasons I can think of are:
I ask for too little money. And I don't have the required experience and skills. =[
right?
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
From what I recall you only have maybe a couple of years experience. This means that your ability to be put in a job and be highly productive straight away is limited and your rate wont be that high, as you guessed.
This is all too disouraging though, have a cup of tea, keep your upper lip stiff and stick to it.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
However, given that, you need to look at how to make yourself stand out, overall attitude, confidence, etc.
Jobs don't always go to the most deserving; they go to the ones that did the best job marketing. People tend to read between the lines, so everything you write or say needs to be carefully evaluated for any negative subtext.
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
If this helps you feel like that boat of your isn't all that lonely. Two guys got laid off from my company a while back (6 months). These two guys are still looking for work, not from lack of trying mind you. These two fellows' would have the complete opposite problem to you. These guys have both been in the game of engineering for 15+ yrs. The reason I believe they are struggling to get work is that they are people you would refer to as Jack of all trades, master of none. They are finding it very hard to get an interview as a lot of employers are looking to the future, looking for people whom standout. I believe the new word is hype dynamic. To give you an assessment of the capabilities in my humble opinion, i would hire/recommend these guys at the drop of a hat, but alas it is not my decision.
So keep you chin up and be dynamic.
When in doubt, just take the next small step.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Maybe this will help cheer you up, or at least feel less lonely.
I work out of town, because the only significant industry where I live (Ridgecrest) is defence related and until recently I couldn't work in defence due to nationality issues.
Since I got my citizenship I've applied to a bunch of places, and went to a job fair on the local base where all the jobs are centered.
I haven't had a single response yet.
Just to rub it in there was an article in the LA times about how Ridgecrest is a boom town in these troubled times and they can't find anyone to employ etc.
Made me feel really great
So, it's not just you.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
The day i understand management is the day I can truly call myself crazy.
However, I think it had something to do with pay levels (these guys were paid a bit more than me, with less seniority) and poor project selection for the capabilities of the office.
The sad thing is that now we have too much work, and I cannot get them to re-employee the redundant works because of ego's of the management.
When in doubt, just take the next small step.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
As for management, it's often simply that what we, as engineers, perceive to be priorities often aren't.
Case in point, at a former IC company called F***, we had some serious downsizings, and a new GM, the 8th in 4 yrs, decided to cut all IR&D spending, and force last-time buys on our only cash cows. Clearly psychotic to kill all potential future business and the lifeblood of the division, no?
However, from his perspective, it was perfectly sane. He deduced that he had less than 4 months to show a profit, or he would be fired. And he recognized that if he showed a profit, he would be promoted. In either scenario, the fate of the division was irrelevant to him after 5 months. Therefore, the lack of future products was not his problem. The killing of the cash cows wouldn't affect him in the short run, but he would get a 5x bump in the bottomline for each product killed. He turned a profit on the 4th and 5th months, and he was indeed promoted on the 6th month.
So, what we saw as the killing of the division in the long run was correct, but irrelevant to his time horizon. It makes him extremely shrewd, but an a**hole nonetheless.
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
You are right however there is definitely a different mind set. Instead of following my advice and getting an engineer on board that can help out, they have hired a newly Graduated student, because they are "cheap".
When in doubt, just take the next small step.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Ron
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
During the redundancy process, company had to do a skills matrix; roughly every skill had maximum 5 points, some even less, so I guess the JOATMONs would score obviously more... (Person with lowest score had to go, but such a matrix wasn't done for me, because everyone in my department apart from the manager was made redundant.)
Hey, KENAT, how long have you been looking? I doubt you'd be out of work too long, with your experience, your (attractive) English accent... Americans would love to hire you.
rowingengineer just reminded me why I got employed... I was a 'cheap' graduate. My company tends to pay managers a lot, but very little to the rest, one manager (who's now got laid off) used to get paid 4 times more than the people who actually did some work in his department... So they could never keep skilled people in the company...
The job advertised was 'graduate electrical engineer', once I started, my title became 'electrical engineer', it wasn't junior or graduate, and that was once the reason why I couldn't get a pay raise (said my manager)...
Oh btw, why do I have a star next to my name? It says 'helpful member'... But all I have done was asking questions...
Thanks again all
X
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I'm pretty sure it's the English thing that's part of the issue because of clearances etc. but that's another matter. However, I was trying to console you Cutiee not get sympathy.
That would "Of a fence installer".
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
But getting down on yourself will effect your confidence in an interview and I think that is something can really see in the interview process.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
The only way these people would be your competition was if you moved to Australia and started a new discipline in Civil engineering.
One of them just went for an interview with a potential employer. The person that interviewed them was someone they had trained about 15 yrs earlier. They thought they were a chance, but it turns out that the interviewer did not want the competition. So do not let someone's opinion on not wanting to hire you be a reflection of who you are.
Quote time: "Worry not what others think of you, but what you think of yourself".
When in doubt, just take the next small step.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I had the blissfully good fortune of graduating in 1983, when jobs were...somewhat sparse...
I applied to a major mid-stream company for a position just above minimum wage as a file clerk. I was rejected because my grades in engineering (B-average) weren't high enough. I concluded one of two things:
(1) They were looking for really smart file clerks;
(2) Their files were so badly messed up that they needed really smart file clerks.
I was rejected by Human Resources at a major oil and gas producer because - and I quote - "Petro-Canada just laid off 1200 people, so we want to interview them to make sure we get somebody really good.".
After three interviews and a psychological profile test, I was rejected by a major oilfield chemicals sales company during a fourth and final interview because - and I quote - "We feel that you probably don't get along well with people below your level of intelligence and that you have no sense of humour.". To which, I politely responded - and I quote - "Some of my best friends are alcoholics and street bums; and, I *am* here with you, aren't I?".
(That might have been the point where I lost the job...)
I was rejected by a major instrumentation design and sales company because I wanted to work for them for free just to gain engineering experience, which caused them to accuse me of trying to convince them to violate local labour laws.
In all, I applied for 1,200 (one thousand two hundred) jobs over a 13 month period, and was rejected 1,199 (one thousand one hundred ninety nine) times before I got my first engineering job for - get this - $3.00 an hour.
I began to feel very much like a mere soap tablet in the urinal of the engineering profession.
Since then, I have been downsized, I have quit, I have been turfed...and I have come out ahead way better off each time.
Believe in yourself and keep going, even when things are at their most bizarre.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
What about contract agencies, kind of like the low skilled temporary temp agencies that get you in the door? I worked contract agency work for like 5 years as an controls engineer. It was usually jobs that were hard to fill or required travel. Once you get past the 5 year mark in experience, usually you can get a job with benefits, like the one you are presently at right now. I think in europe if you work contract you can only work 11 months there, they lay you off for a month and bring you back. So just plan to charge a much higher rate for the gap of a month. Take a month or two vacation and go back to same company contracting. Or just get another contract job at some other company, you call the shots.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Just a thought. Gaining experience and knowlege builds your confidence a lot.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I have finally got an interview (next Monday)!!! I'm very excited, yet worried at the same time. 2 months 1 interview, I really don't wanna mess up my chances...
I'm now studying about the position, the company and possible interview questions...
But one big question: How should I dress? Smart short dress (my favourite)? Or smart trousers with low cut top? Or should I try not to dress fashionable or sexy?
I must say 'THANK YOU for your help with my CV ScottyUK' :)
All suggestions are welcome! Thanks again.
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Re. dress: I'd go for smart but not provocative. A suit with smart shoes, bag, do your hair and makeup etc. At risk of sounding like I know what I'm talking about, that's advice from one of the girls I work with. I haven't a clue about girls' attire other than knowing what the answer to "does my ass look big in this dress?" should be.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Dress in what you are most confident in. Present yourself professionally.
Do not dress "sexy". If thats what it takes to get the position then that is what will be expected of you and how you would be perceived from then on. Unless of course the interview is for a stripper job or something of the like.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Regards
Pat
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Dress conservative, and definitely downplay sexy. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to be serious.
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Here are some prior thread about women's professional wear:
thread731-93588: Dressing the part...
GeneratorGrrl's Dec. 14 post in thread731-110284: Important job applicant skills
thread731-111099: Professional Attire
It's been 5 years, but I don't think fashions have changed so much that the discussions have become irrelevant.
Hg
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I just found out more about this interview, this is the 1st stage interview with the director and manager... I'm scared! I have only had one interview in my life which was for my last employer, it was easy... but this one sounds all complicated and scary! Don't know what to expect.
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Taking advantage of it doesn't mean looking like a $50 tom (street walker or whatever you want to call it). Taken too far it will mean they are only thinking about that or it may even work against you, "can't be pretty & smart" mentality.
Fashionable is probably fine as long as it's not too flamboyant but be carefull on sexy. The slightest hint of cleavage is probably OK, much more than that will likely be inappropriate.
If you have a lower cut top you think you look cute in then wear it, just put a cammy or something underneath to hide the girls a little.
I'll stop there before it becomes too obvious just how much "What not to wear" (US Version with the hosts that actually look nicely put together) I end up watching with the Mrs.
KENAT,
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Try to be open and avoid one-word answers, but don't give hugely detailed answers to questions which don't warrant it. Involve the interviewer in your answers if you can, and don't be afraid to ask them questions as part of your answer. By doing that you are steering the interviewer to engage in conversation rather than interrogation which is usually less stressful on both the interviewer and interviewee.
Take some examples of your work if you can - photographs are great talking points and, if the opportunity arises, find a suitable opening in the interview to say "I've got some examples of my work if you'd like to have a look?". Politeness and curiousity will usually mean that they will say yes, and you will also have opened up an opportunity for you to highlight your abilities and for you to talk about something you are familiar with rather than letting them direct the path of the interview. Choose your moment carefully though and wait until you can drop it in to the conversation. If the opportunity doesn't come up then I'd probably let it go.
When the interviewer says "Have you got any more questions" it really means that they've got what they need from the interview so while it is ok to ask a question or two it is much better to have got the answers duing the interview itself.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Then think of the questions that you think they would ask technically. Answer those.
Look smart dress you age, if you feel confident then you will act confident. One less worry if you feel your not dresssed like you want to.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
They offered me the job and offered to match my pay scale in private industry which was a bit unusual for this place. I didn't take it as it was around the time I was looking to move to the States from the UK and things changed between interview and when I got the offer letter.
KENAT,
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I think I would advise against a dress (as opposed to a skirtsuit). Maybe it's different where you are, but from what I've seen of women's conferencewear (which is similar to interview-wear), the only people wearing dresses rather than suits are the administrative help. Not Looking Like The Secretary is one more thing that female engineers shouldn't have to think about but do.
Hg
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Regards
Pat
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Figure, a boy applying for the job would have on a nice pair of slacks, and a jacket and tie, even if it's not a matching 2-piece suit.
Hg
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Different attitudes and expectations in different parts of the world. Probably different between industries too.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I'm trying to look elegant, not sexy, and I hate going out the house feeling unattractive... that often decrease my confidence, doubt it will help with the interview?
Looks like it's time for clothes shopping (again!)
I agree with you there, KENAT hehe.
Yes, ScottyUK, smile :) that's one thing I can't stop doing, because I have a great one =]
This new position has nothing to do with my old job; will they still be interested to see examples of my work?
Good idea Pat, but not sure about the jacket... it's surprisingly hot where I am (UK)
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
How does a secretary look? How should a female engineer look? I guess it's all about personal preference?
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
EAs used to have the unwritten requirement of looking like they were clothing models. And, in one case, Nadine (the one that got away), she was actually moonlighting as a model.
Dress will really be dictated by the company, its location, and its people. I think you'll need to stay on the conservative side for a couple of weeks, until you get a good feel for who's who, and why they dress the way they do. As mentioned above, we're business casual, so we have everything from t-shirt/jeans to basically interview wear, sans the jacket. Partywear and beachwear are almost never seen.
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I went to an interview for a power station engineering job with a few examples of stuff I worked on in a hybrid microelectronics plant and some photos of a wind tunnel fan drive I'd been fighting a losing battle with for months: yes, they'll be interested in your work and if it's something they aren't intimately familiar with then you can sound like an expert.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Now out in the desert where I live (at least at weekends) then even I struggle to force my self into a jacket when its 115F. But still dress pants, maybe (just maybe) a short sleeved shirt and definitely tie.
Of course this is a bit perverse. It might be very hot here outside but chances are both building and car are air conditioned, so really no excuse on the jacket, even if one only puts it on as you walk into reception.
On the other hand, in the Uk if it's hot outside then except in larger office buildings, it's probably hotter inside.
Oh well.
KENAT,
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
A few thoughts, figuring that some other readers might add, or correct, or maybe even apply these ideas:
1) You're full-time job - AT PRESENT - is job hunting. Discipline your OWN self to maintain a 40-50 hour "work-week" actively looking for work AND networking. NEVER, ever, ever, evr, be :ashamed" to ask ANYBODY you are talking to about the fact that you're looking for electrical and electrical engineering work. For example, the cashier you're talking to maay know a cable company who needs a wiring tech for a apartment complex for three weeks. Fine - It's in your field also. "I ran cables in new construction for one summer. Never want to do that again, but I learned a lot about field problems and bad connections."
2) Don't restrict yourself: Allow your search to include
a) part-time (less than 40.0 hours/week) positions;
b) contract positions (added deliberately as short-term positions to fill an urgent need. Last in, first out, but you often find that you're switched around in the office filling in different places for much longer than the first, original problem slot. Also, explaining why you "left" a contract job is easy "The contract ended successfully."
c) temporary positions Sometimes these are even as a sub-contract agency to an out-of-city position. Even more temporary than the "contract position" because you're expected to be there only a few weeks or months. Good resume enhancement because you get to list many different problems that you've faced.
If you are signed on to a temporary agency, THEY have to sell your body to a client or THEY won't get paid. That adds a few more people trying to sell your body to the world.
3) Be yourself. The company you are interviewing has to sell THEM to YOU as well. Make sure the two or three interviewers convince YOU that YOU want to work for THEM. Don't get cocky, but they have to sell themselves - maybe 1/4 as much as you have to sell yourself to them that you will be worth your future salary.
4) Don't be nervous. If I could (successfully) interview Admiral Rickover wearing cowboy boots - it's a long story - you can do anything.
5) Once you have them sold, DON'T sell yourself short. Request a (slightly) higher pay than you'd expect - but research FIRST. Your next six pay raises are much garder to get than that first step up as your starting salary.
By the way, you don't need to be discussing dollars until AFTER you have sold them on your worth. Once they start discussing dollar seriously - and it might be at your second or third interview, you can assume you have done the selling. You're now the buyer, and THEY are trying to get YOU to buy their product (their business) in exchange for your time and talent.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
When I couldn't find my house key before leaving the house, I should have known that everything would go wrong on that day...
(I wore suit)
Three people interviewed me, two technical guys, and one director. The director was very rude! He asked me a question, when I was explaining to him; instead of looking at me, he was cleaning his glasses with his tie the whole time!
When the product manager tried to explain their products to me. He was staring at the table! (Hello, are you talking to the table???)
That's only the start of the interview, and my confidence was shattered. I felt very uncomfortable and I was really nervous.
Then they asked me technical questions (i was expecting them to ask me to explain a circuit, filter, op-amp, or VHDL, but they were asking me to design stuff to do this and that) for an hour long, I couldn't answer. I did spend days revise to cover what they mentioned in their job spec and competency based interview questions, because I was told it's a competency based interview (which is not the case).
The questions asked were totally different from job spec; I must admit some of the stuff they asked I have done in uni. But after all, I spent last two years doing totally different things. I just can't remember everything I did in uni. I feel it's really unfair, and I was angry at myself too. And the director didn't help by eating food and typing stuff (not relevant to this interview) on his computer at the meantime...
The director also asked me if I can do programming and software and admitted to me, he was looking for someone who's highly experienced in o&g industry as well as design of their products. So I thought 'why you wanted to interview me? You saw my CV!' (and I didn't lie on my CV at all!)
The director also complained to me that he had interviewed 5 people but couldn't find a good applicant in the southwest, if he had advertised in Aberdeen, he could find better candidate... (Yeah, right, what a good way to tell me I have failed...)
I felt humiliated and embarrassed the whole time. I don't know how I remained smiling till the end; I really just wanted to walk out...
Later the company called my agency saying they thought I was 'bright individual', 'very impressed by me', 'excellent interpersonal skills', and 'the interview is worthwhile'. But it's a no (like I expected). Well, it's good for me too; I really don't want to work for a director who is rude, inconsiderate and thinks he is better than everyone else!
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I feel really bad about myself ever since the interview. I wish I had never gone to it... if I hadn't at least I would still have the confidence to look for jobs.
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Stay cheerful and unflappable. Be prepared for upsetting events at every interview. Usually the interviewers are watching your reactions. Be ready for upsetting occurences and be more ready to take them cheerfully.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
It can be counterproductive to accept a job where you know you will be unhappy.
If you really are very attractive, the guys may have been diverting their gaze so as not to appear to be learing.
Regards
Pat
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
So chin up, and keep trying.
KENAT,
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
The key was being honest. Keep your chin up, your chance will come, you are just gonna have to kiss alot of frogs to find your perverbial prince.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Those clowns obviously don't deserve you. You can do better than working for a bunch of arrogant twits who set you up to squirm.
I was asked during a job interview once if I knew the molecular weight of sulfuric acid. I added the numbers up in my head but maybe missed on arithmetic or something...I was off by "2". On that basis, I was told that I was lacking in technical competence and probably overpaid relative to my position.
A couple of years later, that interviewer applied for a job where I was working, and someone asked me what I thought about him. On the basis of my answer, he wasn't hired, and I continued to be technically incompetent and overpaid where I was at, and where I remain to the present day.
What goes around comes around.
I still don't know the molecular weight of sulfuric acid off the top of my head, but I know where to find a periodic table when I need it.
Trust me...you didn't need to work for dopes like this. Consider yourself lucky and move on.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
KENAT,
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Fe
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Got to their plant and all went well until the "main" panel interview. One of their managers presented one of their PID and said something was missing and I asked me to identify it. I thought he was joking and then he got mad. Mind you same industry but different products and completely different process. So I asked him to clarify which seemed to upset him more. Which actually at this time amused me. So I looked at his drawing and would make up general stuff such as you could put a filter here and purify, you could put a loading station here and dump to truck, so on. This made him REALLY mad. Which REALLY amused me.
So the moral Cutiee, something better will come along. Keep your chin up learn to laugh a bit and most of all keep your confidence up.
I found a good job shortly after that interview. Within a year that plant was shutdown as well.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Fe
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
KENAT,
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Didn't pick up on the Chemical bit.
TTFN
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RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I have occasionally ran into the obscure technical questions on an interview. It's always acceptable to say something to the effect of "I don't know that off the top of my head, since my previous experience has been in a different field, but I am familiar with the concepts and could find the answer after reviewing my notes from my engineering class and confering with more knowlegable collegues. If I was to take a stab at it I might say this..." This shows that, although you don't know everything, you are not flustered by not knowing an answer and shows that you have the resources to get the answer.
To be quite frank, I think you dodged a bullet by not getting that job. That job sounds Dilbertesque in the extream. In my mind an interview should be focused on learning three things about a candidate. Can I get along with this person? Is this person intelligent enough to do the job (or figure out how)? Can this person get work done (time management, motivation, non insane, etc.)? The candidate should be looking for similar assuraces such as: Is this company run by good people or egoistic jerks? Will this company go out of business in the next 6 months? Do they provide resources for me to do my job like training, a decent computer and helpful collegues?
Remeber you are interviewing the company as much as they are interviewing you. And just like engineering or music or sports, the more you interview, the better you get at it. Every bad interview is just practice for the next good interview, and Tiger Woods has shanked more golf balls then I've ever hit.
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Thanks guys!!!
The place was dull, everyone looked miserable, director was arrogant. When I first walked in the building, I just couldn't see myself working there.
I'm really annoyed with them, because they didn't even bother to read my CV, the director kept asking me, was your last job different. I was like, what the...
Anyway it's over, I must move on.
I think employers pay for travel cost, my last company paid for mine at least.
Cutie
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Fe
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Cutie, It sounds to me (and I've been on both sides of the hiring table) that someone had made up their mind that you were not going to be the one before you ever stepped foot in that place. There are a lot of hiring managers out there that form a preconceived notion of what the ideal candidate should look like and there is not getting around it. Better to find an open-minded manager.
It could even have been that the interviewer had a problem with the employment agency or another individual in-house who sifted through all the options and put your resume in front of them.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
I have no idea why they asked me - a "Mechanical" engineer - the molecular weight of sulfuric acid. I suspect it was because it was the only compound for which the molecular weight was known by the interviewer. I imagine a Chemical Engineer told him, once upon a time.
KENAT:
Yep...I have definitely been on the receiving end of bizarre interview techniques. But, being rejected because I apparently had no sense of humour and I might not be able to speak intelligently with stupid people...that was a memorable outcome for me. As I recall, I think I laughed and shut up.
Cutiee:
Chalk this up as one item added to a collection of memorable and funny anecdotes that you can share with your kids some day around the pool in the back yard behind the nice house that you will have bought with the money you earned by working for a good company.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: I lost my first! Is this the end of the world?
Thank you all again.