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Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.
2

Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

(OP)
Hi everyone, towards the end of last year I decided to make a change to my career and move to the U.S. Unfortunately the economic crisis became worse soon after which has left me wondering about job security, changing industries and my chances of finding an employer willing to sponsor me.

Before I ask my questions, here's a bit of background. I'm Australian and graduated from an Australian university with a BSME. After graduating I left Australia to work in Germany designing end of line testing systems for a production technology company (mainly for automotive parts). I worked there for 3.5 years before moving to a tier one supplier, also in Germany, designing semi-active dampers for passenger vehicle applications where I've been for the last 3 years.

Due to the way the economy is right now I've been applying for jobs in other industries, such as medical device and electronics (hardware), and mainly in southern California. Although I haven't sent a large number of applications away I haven't received any positive feedback, or feedback at all yet.

Whilst it's understandable that job security in the automotive sector isn't at a particular high right now, what is it like in other industries, such as the one's I previously mentioned? According to the O*Net Online website Mechanical Engineers are currently in demand.

Something else I'd like to know is, is it at all common for a company in the U.S. to sponsor a foreign worker?

While I've read a number of articles about the current job situation in the U.S. it'd be nice to hear what it's like directly from other mechanical engineers.


Kristian

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.


Here's a pretty good website that may get you some answers.  I'm not in your industry and in a couple of weeks, I'll be among the ranks of the unemployed here in California.

http://www.labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/

Thingsin CA are pretty rough right now.  I'm concerned that my unemployment check is going to be an IOU, nothing but a promissory note.  The information I get from my stock broker is not to expect too much until Spring 2010, and then the recovery will be very, very slow.  His opinion is that we are in a full depression.

Start just contacting industries or companies you want to work for and at least get the ball rolling.  I would not move here until the economy is decidedly going back up, or you risk getting laid off then having to move back if you do not find a new sponsor.

Good Luck

 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

You'd probably be better off back in Germany. At least they still have an automotive industry.

Times are tough, no such thing as job security. Aerospace is a bit quiet too - the design phase of quite a few big projects is basically finished and there's not that much in the pipeline.

Last year I went back home (UK), renewed my SC, and went nuclear in the expectation of little aerospace work and a tendency towards nationalistic recruiting policies. I have seen no sign of the latter but when times are tough I think it has to be a factor. The more feathers in your cap the better right now.

Nuclear is busy if not exactly booming yet. Renewables based on big hardware (like wind and tidal turbines) are on the cusp - its difficult to see which way these will go in the short term.

gwolf.
 

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

KristianS , I'm in SoCal (well, maybe a touch to the North) in high tech scientific instruments/semiconductor and the job market doesn't seem great.

We've had a lot of lay-offs and a lot of those people are having trouble finding work.

My company has sponsored a lot of people but they were typically either brain trust types or interns as cheap labour.

If I were you, this wouldn't be the time I'd be headed out this way.

If you lose your job you have X days to find a new job or leave the country (or maybe marry a local lass but that's not as easy as you may think, been there done that).

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

If you're not too attached to the location (California), you might try north of the border - there seems to be a bit more going on there, and Canada is fairly immigrant friendly.  If you're still under 30, you can get a two-year work visa very easily, more than enough time to prove yourself to a prospective employer/sponsor.

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Forget about Canada- the recession is world-wide and commodity prices have snuffed out Canada's previous boom.

Indeed Canada IS very immigrant-friendly, but we're also in denial about the strength of our own labour market.  There are still 5,000 engineer principal applicant immigrants (i.e. plus yet more who come as dependents of principal applicants or as refugees or asylum-seekers) coming to Canada yearly versus a total Canadian grad rate of 10,000 or so per year.  We're in a severe recession, yet the economic immigration rates have not been reduced.  And we make no attempt whatsoever to match the influx of immigrants to labour force demand on a profession- or region-specific basis.

Have a look at www.geocities.com/martinsmoltenmetal/index.htm or at the Engineering and Technology Labour Market Study Interim Report, particularly p. 19, before you decide whether or not to immigrate to Canada as an engineer.

http://etlms.engineerscanada.ca/media/Interim%20Report.pdf

Canada has so many people now with engineering educations that only 1/3 of them work "in the engineering field" much less as actual engineers.  It is no surprise therefore than less than 25% of Canadian engineer grads go on to professional engineering licensure.

Canada's a great country with many things to recommend it, and thousands do succeed in landing an engineering job yearly.  But if you choose to immigrate without a firm job offer in hand before you come, and you end up without a job in your chosen field after a few years, you should not be surprised- you'll be in good and plentiful company.   

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

(OP)
The outlook seems to be quite bleak, but all the same, thanks for all the info and your perspectives.

@casseopeia: we're slowly starting to hear the same things from our board of directors. At first the prognosis was that we'd be getting back on track in the second half of 2009. Now they're saying some time in 2011.

The chance of being laid off after moving to the US is disturbing, especially since a move back to Germany is out of the question. While people haven't been laid of in masses (yet) no one is hiring here, and probably won't be for at least the next year. The job market in Australia seems to be equally bleak for engineers.

@gwolf2: interesting that you say the aerospace industry is quietening down. I have the impression that aerospace companies are hiring steadily now (based on the number of jobs I've seen offered in the SoCal area). Maybe the message is taking a while to trickle down to HR.

@KENAT: when you say brain trust types do you mean highly qualified people? I'm surprised that your company would bother organising a visa for interns as I've heard that there are quite a few hurdles to jump through to sponsor someone. As much as I don't want to admit it, and as much as I want to leave Germany, I think you're right about it not being the right time to head over to the U.S.

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

By brain trust types I mean folks typically with a PHD that have some history of publishing/doing leading edge research in our field.  I'm not necessarily talking about just a fairly smart engineer.

On the intern thing, our program was through some kind of organization, almost like an exchange student type thing.  It may even have been covered by education visas not H1B, I'm not sure of the details.  However, we've all but finished this program as times are tough.

On the Aerospace and Defense jobs, don't take what you see at face value.  Some of the jobs may not be real, they may hire in advance of getting a govt contract to prove they have employees to do the work, then let a lot of them go once they do get the contract to maximize profit.  Also some of the govt jobs are almost paperwork exercises, they wont 'find' anyone suitable and will then shift the job to the East coast closer to Washington.  

Then there's the whole security clearance thing.  Without a clearance you can't work most defense programs or even in the same area that that work is taking place, so many 'aerospace' jobs end up needing a security clearance.  Last I heard there was a backlog on clearances, so in some cases they'd rather hire a barely qualified candidate with an existing clearance than have to get a new clearance for a qualified person.

Oh, and in case you were thinking you could get one of these jobs, to get a full clearance you need to be a US citizen, usually just a US citizen not dual citizenship.  In theory you can get cleared for a specific program even if not a US citizen but in practice these days they don't seem to do it a lot.  I'm not sure even Von Braun could have got a clearance since 911winky smile.
 

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

2
Von Braun shouldn't have gotten a clearance anyway.  

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

(OP)
The security clearance / citizenship problem is something I've run across already. I've found a few jobs relevant to my experience in the past only to read the last line of requirements "Must be a US citizen" or "Must possess active security clearance".

Ironically, I was just contacted by a head hunter who has a potential job in Canada. While I was hoping to move somewhere a little warmer than Germany it might be worth considering.

In the last couple of days two German head hunters have contacted me with jobs in Germany which was quite unexpected considering the current state of things here. Some reports have you thinking that the economy is falling apart, others show that BMW for example sold 20% less cars this year in June compared to last year. When you consider that car sales were at an unexpected high last year and exceeded everyone's expectations 20% isn't that bad.

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

kristian,

Its to bad i just bought a house or I would trade jobs with you, I kinda want to move to Central Europe winky smile

how many days of vacation do you have?  

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

(OP)
Central Europe? What draws you here?

The working conditions here in Germany are quite good. 30 days of holiday per year are standard, on top of that there are between 9 and 13 public holidays in Germany depending on the state you live in. Most companies also have either what I think is known in the USA as flexi time (meaning that you can trade your overtime for time off) or paid overtime.

From what I've seen it's almost impossible to lose your job as an engineer here unless you do something that borders on extreme negligence or steal from the company, which unfortunately also tends to keep a few bad apples in the basket.

There are other advantages and disadvantages to living here, but all in all from the countries I've visited so far I have to say that the USA has the most to offer from my perspective.

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Kristian
I would not recommend Canada (mentionned here as a possible immigration destination) even to my worst enemy.
No work, no money, and Cold as hell. How people live in that part of the world is beyond my imagination.

As a German, you will feel right at home in the US, even the food is the same as in Germany, complete with Octoberfest and all.

Most German architects and Engineers I met or worked with in the states do quite well. Germans in the US enjoy a very good  reputation as inteligent and hard workers.

USA used to be almost German land isn't it? Did you know that the English language won by ONE vote as the official US language instead of German when it came to chosing between English and German some centuries ago?

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

(OP)
I can plead guilty to having German work experience, but I'm actually Australian.  I've heard from a couple of people in the US that German engineers have good reputations there.  Let's hope that applies to people with German experience too.

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Not that I have anything against the Teutonic race, having a few in the "woodpile" myself, but this one vote business is a sort of proto 'urban legend,' to wit;

David Crystal's (1987) The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language (p.365):

Probably the best-known myth in the history of language planning is the story that German nearly became the national language of the U.S. in the 18th century, losing to English by only one vote in the legislature (the 'Muhlenberg' legend).  In fact, all that was involved was a request, made by a group of Virginia Germans, to have certain laws issued in German as well as in English.  The proposal was rejected by one vote, apparently cast by a German-speaking Lutheran clergyman, Frederick Muhlenberg (1750-1801).  But the general status of English as the major language was never in doubt.   (After Heath, S.B. & Mandabach, F. (1983): Language status decisions and the law in the United States  in: J. Cobarrubias & J.A. Fishman (eds), Progress in language planning: international perspectives (Berlin, Mouton), 87-105)

good luck in your job search!

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

thruthefence
Thank you so much for your post.
I, and several other people I am sure, all stand corrected.

 

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Hell.....we have Octoberfest in Canada every year.....
And it's not that cold. Engineers in Canada are one of the most respected in the world I might add (particularly the ones educated in Canada).
'Cry' for awareness is what we need here.

peace

Fe

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Oh yea, and there is plenty work. But none for the ignorant.

Fe

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Been there FeX (well, been in Montreal)
Plenty of work in there for the blond/blue eyes, not much work for foreigners without the AA (All American) look, and sine I am not one of those AA guys, you get my drift... so, don't "cry" for me, Canada.

I do appreciate your sense of humor though, even if I resent being treated as ignorant.

Keep smiling, and may be we all should refrain from criticism.

PS: IT IS COLD AS HELL up there.

  

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Cold as hell 'eh'. I always pictured hell as this hot fire-filled place. smile

I will be honest, your comment about the AA guys never crossed my mind. I like to think of Canada as a very culturally diverse place.
After all just because you appear like an AA guy does not mean you are an intellect. In fact, the most respectable engineers I know are no where near an AA.

P.S. thanks for appreciating my humor, most people I know don't get it. As for smiling, no one could wipe it off my face if they tried. smile

peace

Fe

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

There ISN'T plenty of work for the engineers in Canada. That's a MYTH. The myth is evident by the fact that only 1/3 of people in Canada educated as engineers actually WORK as engineers.  Stats in the US show a FAR higher percentage of engineering grads and immigrants actually working as engineers.

There IS work to be found here, even now during a severe recession, if you happen to fall into one of the missing cohorts- if you were one of the few local grads in a number of poor years to actually find work and remain employed.  What those grad years are depends on where you live here and what your discipline is.

Many people have blamed the inability of foreign-trained engineers, particularly those from India and China, to find work in Canada, on racism or xenophobia on the part of employers.  While there are no doubt some racists and xenophobes who employ engineers here, what's really happening is that there is stiff competition for limited jobs, a huge over-supply of engineers into that market (with a mind-bogglingly large fraction of them being foreign-trained).  This occurs at the very same time that industries are crying "shortage" in the media.  

In an oversupplied job market, the advantage goes to the locally-trained and locally-experienced.  Most engineers here don't simply sit in cubicles cranking out calcs, so ten plus years in the local business environment really IS worth something to employers here.  People with local experience hit the ground running harder and faster than those who don't- unless you're in a really specialized business.

Don't believe me?  Look at the labour market study link I posted.  They author comes to exactly the same conclusions- even BEFORE the full effects of the recession were considered.  Despite the recession, Canadian immigration targets have NOT been lowered.  Canada still has no means of matching labour force demand with immigration skills supply.  Engineers will continue to drive taxis here until this is fixed.

Canada's a great country in many ways, but its economic immigration policy is insane.  I strongly recommend that you DO NOT COME HERE without a firm job offer in hand- and even that is no guarantee.  I know of more than one person who has arrived only to have a job offer recinded- and this was the beginning of a very long slide for them.

As to the climate:  there are parts of Canada that are far more temporate than parts of the US.  Southern Ontario is at the same latitude as southern Oregon.  And to each their own- climate-wise I'd far rather live in Montreal than in Houston, for instance!

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

A lot of engineering grads I know just don't want to work in engineering per-say. The main reason is money and hard work of course.
They neglect to take things like this into account in publications like that.

peace

Fe

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Kristian,

sorry for the delayed replay, i was in the Czech Replublic... which brings me to why I want to move to central Europe... my wife is Czech... so in the near future i want to move to central Europe  

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Kristian

I live and work in California.  The job market here is in the toilet.

In addition, H-1 Visas are hard to come by -- the employer has to make a case that they can't find an American or Permanent Resident to do the work that you would do.  That's hard when our underlying unemployment rate is 12%, and the real employment rate, when considering those who have given up searching for work is probably around 16+.  Already this year, members of the US congress with their protectionist bent have demagogued this issue.

To my knowledge, almost all defense contractors here in the West want citizenship.  Remember, in the West (California), the big employer for mechanical engineers is aerospace.  In the midwest, automotive and industrial.  Aerospace is a harder nut to crack when you're not a citizen.

Granted, unemployment is not 12% for engineers.  I think in the 3-4% range.  But many companies have hiring freezes on.

Every two weeks, I speak with my friends in Germany.  The way they tell me, it seems better there than here right now.

But keep trying.  If you can get here, despite the crushing income taxes here in the state and the dysfunctional government, it is a beautiful state and the weather is fantastic much of the time.  I've lived here nearly all my life and am not considering moving out.

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Hi Kristian,

I would either stay in Germany and apply for MagLev jobs. The MagLev industry is supposed to be growing with quite a few projects in development. Or move back to Oz for a while.

I wouldn't consider moving to the US just yet, wait out the recession and maybe in a couple of years move over.

good luck.

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

(OP)
I haven't really applied to defense contractors although the jobs seemed interesting. Like you say, they all require citizenship.

I'm playing the "German Engineering" experience card to improve my chances of finding a job. While I was in the US last year the majority of people I spoke to were of the opinion that german work experience is highly regarded. Unfortunately, of the 30 or so applications I've sent out the only official responses (2) I've received were negative.

The engineering industry here in my opinion is relatively healthy. I work for a Tier 1 automotive supplier in development and I'm not worried about my job at all. Granted, production has been cut back (and is slowly gaining momentum), but that doesn't affect my workload. Along with many other companies we're not hiring right now. The consulting companies have been hit harder than most here as they were the first positions to be withdrawn by many vehicle manufacturers and suppliers. Now to contradict myself somewhat - my CV is on Monster in english and I specifically stated that I'm looking for a job in the US. I've been contacted by a number of headhunters offering positions in Germany and directly by a couple of companies also offering positions here.

Crushing income taxes in California? I was under the impression that they weren't particularly high, as far as I know you have a tiered income tax system. The government here takes 44% of what I earn (including medical insurance). The sales tax is also high at 19%.

Although I've only spent a short amount of time in the US, I can say that from all the countries I've seen it's definitely the country I'd prefer to live in the most, California being my first choice. The people, climate and nature made a lasting impression on me.


@iwonafish:

Do you mean that there are a number of MagLev jobs on offer in Europe or in the US? I considered moving back to Australia but there weren't many engineering related jobs on offer that weren't in the mining industry. While the climate would be a definite improvement, I don't think it would be advantageous for my career or financially. Plus the US is the place I'd most like to be able to call home.

Things seem to be slowly improving everywhere right now. The number of jobs on offer in California have been steadily increasing since the low in March. My prediction is that the US economy will be stronger than ever when it recovers. It'd be nice to be there sooner than later though.


@Gymmeh: do you have any particular country in mind?

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Kristian, the taxes aren't high by European standards (though CA income tax is high compared to most other states), although of course you don't get healthcare out of it.  I'll let you decide where the balance lies on that one.  The government is certainly dysfunctional though, although even that's relative, I suspect it's more functional than many places outside of the Western world.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Well,

I am not to picky on country, Germany, Denmark, Belgium, I would say almost anywhere in Central Europe and maybe even the UK/Ireland.

Probably not Spain or France...

I really enjoy being in other countries, and the fact that many have a lot of vacation is very appealing. Here I only get 1 week of vacation and there are a couple "factory closings" which we can take with out pay or use are sick time for... basically the area I live in engineers are not in high demand.


What other states have you seen?

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

(OP)
Make sure to check the tax rates and sales tax before you decide.  I was in the Netherlands a couple of days ago, and while complaning about the 44% that I pay here in Germany the man I was talking to said he pays 54% tax.

States as in US states?  Some of MA including Bernardston, Boston and Cape Cod, and the Californian coast between San Diego and San Francisco + some inland areas including Yosemite and Death Valley.

We're going to come back in November or December this year and are considering doing the east coast to see how we like it.

If you meant European countries, I've seen a bit of central / western Europe excluding the Scandinavian countries.

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

KENAT,
Your to kind.
Kristan,
I don't mind taxes as long as i see them being used for something... aside from paying hookers, union bribes, and the mafia...

In NY tax dollars are always well spent smile
 

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

(OP)
;) They must have locked all the crazies away when I visited the US.  I'm itching to get over there.

Gymmeh, I can't speak for anywhere else but Germany. I wish I could say that my tax dollars are being used for something useful or at least efficiently here.  Hookers, union bribes and the mafia would probably be a step in the right direction compared to what they're being used for now. :)

RE: Career change: a new industry / moving from Germany to the U.S.

Kristian,
I am a mech E un the states(u.s. born and raised) 15 years now in field.
Don't come here right now. It is tough for us. I get a lot of calls for jobs but they are crummy designer jobs as a contractor for dismal pay.
I am very, very, fortunate to have a job right now(Atlanta,GA). I think the only mech e's that will survive all this will be those with extreme talent and can contract themselves out to multiple customers. The last company I worked at had me there to fix all the f'up's done by the outside contractors(who were their personal friends). Most of what was left for me was "clean up" crap work. Companies don't have enough work to keep us on fulltime. I think it is because nothing is made here anymore. To me a mech e will probably do well in China or India as that's where all the jobs went.


Phil
Phil

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