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Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

(OP)
This topic was addressed in thread 1103-200357 some time ago, without a definite resolution. I am bringing it up again for the members to comment on.
 The ALL AROUND symbol was introduced in ASME Y14.5 in 1982 to apply to Profile of a Surface tolerance. It is also in paragraph 3.3.18 of the 1994 spec with the word "profile" missing, but in reference to a tolerance, verses a dimension.
 The new 2009 spec also applies it in paragragh 3.3.19 relatuve to profile tolerance of all surfaces.
 The new spec even introduces an ALL OVER "2 concentric circle" expansion of the principle for 3 dimensional application of profile of a surface.

So here is my question for debate: Is it proper or correct, using an "extension of principles" justification to expand the all around synbol to dimensional features such as radii extending around non circular features?

This is being used on radii drawings of parts at my place and is a topic of controversy among design and drawing check.

We have two ASME GDT certified people who think it is OK, and are using the "extension of principles" arguement as their justification.
 
As I read the standard, I believe it cannot be justifably expanded from tolerances to dimensional features, and should only be applied as the standard dictates.

What say you?

 
 

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

CheckerRon,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "radii extending around non circular features".  Do you mean applying the all around symbol to something like a fillet radius, in the same way that "TYP" is used?

 

Evan Janeshewski

Axymetrix Quality Engineering Inc.
www.axymetrix.ca

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

I would agree with the use on dimensional features such as fillets or chamfers as long as it is clear what is meant by all around. I.E. ALL AROUND what?  

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

(OP)
axym and PeterStock: Yes, I am talking about putting the all around symbol on the bend of a leader which is calling out a radius  or a chamfer in lieu of using a word description such as "ALL AROUND", or "CONTINUOUS" under the dimension.
 We do not use "TYP"---too vague.

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

We don't even have that option to put that symbol on our dimensions. It's only available for GD&T stuff.

We apply the word "ALL AROUND" to any fillet or cham where needed. We eliminated the word "TYP" here cause of the same reason you mentioned, to vague.

I don't agree at all with your GD&T guys. How i understand it, this symbol only meant for GD&T. Plus i could see it being missed very easily on dimensions.
 

Solid Edge V20

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

What is the definition of the symbol?  My understanding is that it represents "ALL AROUND".  Therefore, I would not have a problem using it in place of the terminology.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

The CAD systems I work with do not have it implemented either. For this to be properly useful, the option to use the all around or all over symbols would need to be added to the software. As an alternative a symbol with modifyable text could be used. I tend to interpret a radius or chamfer dimension that looks like it is all around as all around in any case.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

(OP)
That's separate point,cadman, but we have a CAD problem with it too. The all around symbol is only in our GDT symbol pallette (Pro/E Wildfire 3.4), so we have to create a circle that we can hang on the elbow of the leader and associate it. Design seems to be willing to do this, however. Don't ask me why.

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

Ok if you put it like that..:)

Sounds like to me there wasting time by doing it this way when its faster to just throw a note under it saying ALL AROUND.

So to answer your OP

"So here is my question for debate: Is it proper or correct, using an "extension of principles" justification to expand the all around synbol to dimensional features such as radii extending around non circular features?"

NO!!!!
 

Solid Edge V20

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

Solidworks includes the all around symbol on thier available leader styles, so it's easy to apply to any field note.  Not sure if it's correct or not, however.  I also kind of don't like it because the 1st time I went to apply the all around symbol to a profile tolerance, it took me forever to find out how to do it.  I kept expecting it to be somewhere in the GD&T menu, but it's an option on the leader.

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

CheckerRon,

After reading your clarification, I say no.  I don't see it as a valid extension of principle.  Here are the reasons why:

First, the definition of the all around symbol specifically mentions the leader from the feature control frame.  A radius or chamfer does not have a FCF.

Second, the definitions of "all around what" mention surfaces all around the part.  A radius or chamfer would only apply to a subset of the surfaces all around the part (the fillet or chamfer surfaces, and not the flats and/or other surfaces in between).

Third, Profile is the only class of tolerance that can apply to a group of different feature types and hence can really be applied "all around".

Evan Janeshewski

Axymetrix Quality Engineering Inc.
www.axymetrix.ca

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

I agree that it is a waste of time to manually create a circle to hang onto a leader rather than simply adding the note, but other than that I see nothing wrong with it.  If it could be mis-interpreted it should not be used, but if the interpretation of the symbol is universal, I think that "extension of principals" could easily be invoked.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

As a draftsman, if your drawing is properly laid out there should be no "all around what" or "all around in which direction"

Solid Edge V20

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

"what" and "which direction" weren't in the original issue as I read it.  These types of additions do add more complexity and possible mis-interpretation.  However, if you are refering to an odd shape where there would be only one interpretation, it does not make you a poor draftsman to utilyze the symbol.  It's use does not create an improperly laid out drawing, but a more concise one, which should be the goal of a good drafter.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

I say no good.

Easier just to write "ALL AROUND". Also less ambiguous. Also, less of a problem with pretty much all CAD systems.

I see no upside to using the symbol.

V

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

OK, if your a company that abides by the ANSI standard, again I'd say no. On page 46 section 3.3.18 it states -

"3.3.18 All Around Symbol. The symbolic means
of indicating that a tolerance applies to surfaces all
around the part is a circle located at the junction of
the leader from the feature control frame."

So from that you're only suppose to use that for feature control frame

Now, if you a company like the one i work for and don't abide by the letter of the ASME law. Than i would probably prove to them there wasting valuable, if they really are, doing it the way they are.

Solid Edge V20

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

The all around symbol originated from weld symbols, as such the used in GD&T is an extension from that practice. It is not that much of a stretch to extend that to dimensions.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

Peter,

You beat me too it! I was going to bring up that same point.

And the fuel piles higher...

David

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

I believe using the wording 'ALL AROUND' for a dimensional situation like this is appropriate. ASME Y14.5M does not use the hanged circle in the way you guys are talking about... I would not assume that's it is acceptable to use in any other manner.

There are references in the spec that state that adding local notes to clarify situations like this are OK.

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

If you have a profile with radii at corners and straight sections between them, I don't think the all-around symbol can be used on the radii dimension leader. The reason being that the dimension is only applicable on the radii - but the all-around symbol is telling you to apply it everywhere on the profile outline.  

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

???
I'm not sure I understand that, JLang17.
If you are refering to a situation such as this example, how would you dimension it?  "4X R.XX" or "8X R.XX", or "R.XX ALL AROUND"?  If you use ALL AROUND, how is that different than using the circle?  Intent is clear, isn't it?  While it is not directly proscribed, this use is neither directly prohibited by the standard.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

ewh
I would use ALL AROUND to dim this feature due to the rad including the corners of the part.

Now if the corners were not rad, it would be R X.X 4X

Solid Edge V20

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

Like Cadman, I'd probably base whether I allowed it on the situation.

Ron, I believe you are working Government contracts, so I'd lean on the side of caution and not use it in the application you describe.

At my place, where most people dont' even know what ASME Y14.5 is, I'd probably allow it if the intent was clear.  However, like cadmanI don't think our CAD does it automatically/intelligently so would discourage it for that reason.

KENAT,

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RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

I have drawn a simple die with a square clearance cut of .06" all around the female feature, a square with radiussed  corners, on the bottom side. I had the circle on the leader to imply the .06" was all around the feature. After reading this post, my interpretation is that the circle is used for tolerancing purposes, and that I should dimension this feature .06 ALL AROUND and remove the circle.

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

(OP)
Yes, Supercub, you should change it to "ALL AROUND".

 I am not so concerned that readers will misinterpret this callout applied to dimensions.
Any reader familiar with weld symbols or all around profile-of-a-surface tolerance will get the intent, but it was a real stretch for me when colleagues tried to use Y14.5 to justify. Besides, it's just easier to all the words.

Some of the posters above have given me more good reasons not to permit or perpetuate this practice.



 

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

CheckerRon,

     I Would like to comment simply to state that I, for one, have seen and used the "all-around" symbol on dimensions before, as there is no notation in the standards saying otherwise.  The only time I woul use it, is perchance the definision of the symbol is absolte.  Needless to say, there is an obvious meaning and no other posibility as to its use.  Now if per say there was any, key word (any), chance of misinterpritaiton of the afromentioned symbol and it's meaning, then it's use in that situation shall be simply, no-go.  I for one would rather use the symbol when possible, but I ensure that the situation would allow for it in my interpritation.  I would also like to note that as some people may use it, and some people may not within any givin organization, I strongly recomend having an internal specification detailing the use of the symbol prior to implmentation.  

V/R
Nathan
CAD Technician/ISO Director
Compass Systems, Inc.   ( http://www.compass-sys-inc.com/ )

RE: Expanded use of ALL AROUND Symbol

(OP)
I concur, nrostrander, that such use should be documented in a company standard, or DRM before using it. Today's drawing creators tend to assume that anything a CAD system can do is acceptable. I have seen some really horrid examples of this. Therefore I am big on sticking to accepted, documented stndards and not venturing off on your own.
 There are notations stating otherwise, however. Check out the paragrahs I note in my OP.  

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