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co-worker non claiming all hours worked
33

co-worker non claiming all hours worked

co-worker non claiming all hours worked

(OP)
So, I work in a small structural engineering office where everyone knows everyone else. My boss owns half of the  office that we work out of, which is located in a very nice area. Therefore our overhead is fairly high, which explains why my boss is always pushing us to "Get it out" or complaining that we didn't make any money on this or that job.

To make matters worse, one of the other engineers does not clock all the hours that he works. Since we are paid hourly this makes me look like an asshat, because I clock all my hours therefore it takes longer for me to complete a project. Of course this other guy is the bosses golden boy, but I think he is just kissing ass by not logging all his hours.

He told me the other day that sometimes when he is working on a project and the phone starts ringing off the hook, and he gets tied up for an hour or two answering questions from contractors, architects... that he doesn't feel that he should clock those hours on the project that he is working on. Of course he shouldn't, log the hours under general office time.

Any suggestions as to how I should handle this?
Oh, not sure if the boss knows this, but I am pretty damn sure it is obvious.  

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

5

Quote:

Oh, not sure if the boss knows this, but I am pretty damn sure it is obvious.

OK so going to your fellow worker and telling him to "stop working so hard, it makes me look bad" doesn't sound like a brilliant idea.

Going to your boss and saying "hey, that other guy is working extra hours for you for free and it's making me look bad" is not very nifty.

Hey, I know.  Work hard and honestly for your boss.  Whether you like it or not you essentially compete with your fellow workers daily.  Employers see effort and value in their employees - sometimes not fairly, but I always trust that my good, honest effort will be rewarded in the long run.



 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Work hard, log your hours. Don't worry what the next guy is doing; bad ethics will catch up to him..

Chris
SolidWorks 08, CATIA V5
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Is it really unethical to give more than you are obliged to?

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

No...  

But my question would be ...  Is he charging those unchargeable hours to valid chargeable accounts?  That would be unethical.  

Actually, in reading the first post, he is answering questions from contractors and architects.  If these are contractors and architects of active and billable projects, then the time expended is billable, and should be.  If not, accounts should be set up for these individuals and billed accordingly as consulting time.  In either event, I see the time expended as billable.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

(OP)
"Is it really unethical to give more than you are obliged to? "
So when this guy doesn't log all of his hours, yes it is beneficial for the owner but it makes me look not as productive....hours/project.

Sorry to burst the bubble that just because you work hard and do a good job that someone will notice, but how in the hell can I beat the fact that this a-hole is basically working for free. I mean, what kind of kiss ass would do this?

On top of all this he has taken his FE 4-5 times and hasen't passed, while I have passed long ago.

 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Mike makes a very good point, maybe he is doing something for free that the company should be charging for.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

OK, so he is making up for being less qualified by working more hours for less money. Or else he can't be bothered to figure out how to assign costs for interruptions to his main projects, so he doesn't charge for them. Or he feels he shouldn't charge for clarifications that shouldn't be needed.

I'd rather employ him than you, and frankly, it is beginning to sound like I'd rather work WITH him than you.

Think about it. You can't possibly 'win' this one.





 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Yep, that is quite clearly a soil removing tool.

- Steve

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

7
While I agree with others that you are whining, the "unclocked" hours thing can cut both ways, depending on how clueless the boss is.  Putting down 40 hrs per week shows up later (6 months, a year...) as....40 hrs per week.  Some bosses would brand him as "doing only the necessary to get by", while others would view him as "productive and efficient"....depends on the perspective of the boss.  "Clocking" 50 hours per week might show the boss either that you're willing to go the extra or that it takes you longer than the other guys, so you're not as productive or efficient.

I would bet that your attitude as expressed in you original post comes through at work....that will be noticed by everyone...boss included...without regard to what you put on your timesheet.

Greg is exactly right.  Lose the attitude and get to work or move on.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Surely if YOU are booking hours to billable projects that lowers the overhead.

If your colleague on the other hand is not then he is contributing to overhead costs. Maybe he just needs a word in his ear...he is obviously working during those hours so why not charge it to a billable project it doesn't make sense.

You say that because you are clocking all your hours it takes you longer to complete a project - that surely cannot be true!

a) A task (notionally) takes you the same time whether you bill the hours or not; and

b) YOU clock the hours so your boss then has a true picture of how long it takes to do something WHICH HE CAN THEN BILL THE CLIENT FOR.

If your boss has a system where you bill non-client time to an overhead account code then he MUST be aware of your colleague's practice. Otherwise it would look like he was only working there part time while everyone else is booking a full week of work.

Regards, HM

 

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

There is information missing here.  My assumption is that you're all booking the same total number of hours each week to a range of billable jobs.  The choice of dividing up the week is a regular Friday chore.

Working outside of hours and not charging is common, something young single blokes do all the time.  Where I work there seems to be an unofficial competition for who can lose the most hours each month.  A Flexi-time high score war.

- Steve

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

If your boss knows this is going on and he starts singling you out about profitability I would find another job and give the bare minimum 1-2 week notice.  

If he's that big of a douche to make you work for free, I'm sure he's not that great of an engineering mentor either.  
 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

8
If your colleague is doing billable work for free because he can't figure out at the end of the day which projects he's worked on, he's an idiot.  He's doing nobody any favours.  Even if the job in question is fixed price rather than reimbursable, not booking hours properly leads the boss to underbid the next job and the one after that.

If you're both paid hourly, you're booking 50 and he's booking 40 but working 50, he's buying some goodwill with the boss.  Unethical, bad strategy long term in my opinion, and definitely bad for the profession, but there's precious little you can do about it.  Engineers should be compensated for every hour they work, billable or not, in some way or another- whether that be via O/T pay, time in lieu, bonus or ownership is between you and the boss to negotiate.  Ordinary working blokes have that one figured out, and for some reason we engineers are "above" that.  I guess people who work that way just accept it as "how it is", and think they're buying themselves favours in heaven.  Bullsh*t- all they're doing is devaluing your own services, and mine as well.

If you're paid salary, both of you work 50 hours, 40 billable and 10 non-billable, both of you have 100% utilization on a 40 hour basis.  The boss won't care- even when he bids the next job and bases it on the last one where you worked 50 to bill 40.  But something you can show on paper and he can't is how many hours you actually worked during the year.  Comes in handy when salary or bonus negotiations come up.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

i haven't clocked my hours before.  because i was learning.  i shouldn't charge for learning.   

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

I think people are mixing legal with ethical. As stated what the coworker is doing is legal but not in its truest form "ethical".  imho  

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

(OP)
Ron, I am curious as to how you can determine someones "attitude" from words alone. So please explain to me what my attitude is from my initial post.

I guess I was just curious as to how others would handle this, but like others have said, you can't. If this guy wants to work for free, then that is his problem.

swivel63. I don't know why engineers think like this. I say B.S. Any other job that I have ever had in my life I was reimbursed for my time no matter if I was learning or not.
As a structural engineer you are always learning.

Finally just to clarify, I do like what I do, but if I could afford to I wouldn't work. I would be doing other things that I enjoy more.

So this isn't just some "job" to me, it is more then that, but it also does not consume my entire life.  

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Ludpeka1,

Just to clarify your statement, depending on the jurisdiction and the manor and the classification of employee the individual may be doing something illegal.  In Canada it is illegal for an individual to not enter time they have worked if they are an hourly employee.  I worked for a sales company while I was in school and a number of employees were doing this to improve their 'sales/hour' rating (the company was turning a blind eye, but management knew about it).  CRA (Canada Revenue Agency) found out and both the company and the individuals had more than their wrists slapped.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

I don't know of any salaried engineers getting working 40 hour weeks and calling it good.
I do know the girl at Starbucks works a 40 hour week and it is good.

I think the term unethical is being thrown out in place of the phrase "I don't want to".

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

I would approach my boss in front of the golden boy and ask how to handle the situation. I would ask "when I am working on a project and get interupted by phone calls, how should I charge it? Would you rather me not mark down the hours, or mark them as general?" If your boss is worth working for he will tell you mark the hours down as general or bill them to the job the questions are coming from. This covers you butt, and it will be stated in front of the golden boy. Now everyone is on the same page and one of you is not doing what the boss wants.  

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

I'm not sure what the problem is as the profit the company makes will be the difference between what salaries are paid out and what income comes in. You can book your hours to 'staring out the window' for all it matters. What would make a difference is if the colleague worked late at night/weekends and neither booked their time to the project or asked for over-time payment. Best way to compete with that is to take in a brief case and take home some papers to work on, or take home a laptop. Proudly announce to everyone in the morning how late you were working last night. Make sure everyone knows or else you'll be wasting your time. In the afternoon you'll have the perfect excuse for that little nap while your colleague answers the bleedin phone.  

corus

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked


shacked,

The negative attitude, anger and resentment comes through for me, too.  Here are the clues,  'asshat...golden boy...kissing ass...a-hole...kiss-ass...'

The (rhetorical) question I have is it your boss making this comparison, or just you?

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

I second Cass. Sounds like sour grapes to me !! Lose the attitude and in the long run you will be rewarded.

"Does the man make the journey or does the journey make the man" - Mark Twain

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

DWHA kind of beat me to it.  Ask the boss for clarification on how to book time answering phone calls etc, preferably in a way that the other guy also gets the clarification.

Oh as to what kind of kiss ass would work for free, well me.  Although, I've usually turned it to my benefit one way or another so maybe it wasn't for free in the long term.

Are you sure this guy is doing it 'for free' or is he getting some kind of reward, even if it's just being in the good graces of your manager?

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

One of the fundamental issues that needs to be clarified is:  are the fees for the projects based on fixed fees or hourly (maybe to an upset maximum)?  There's a big difference in how one looks at this situation depending on the answer.  Typically in the building design industry, most arrangements with the Architect or Owner are fixed fees.  So typically in that world, it is very common for management to try to squeeze all the "free" hours out of staff as possible to meet the fixed fee limit, and insure some miniscule profit.  I've found it to be quite common in this industry to work 45-50 hours and only book 40 to the timesheet since the fees are never enough to cover the effort and scope creep.  

That's another whole ethical discussion about doing fixed fee work for nebulous scope of work and then trying to cut back service to preserve fees.   

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Sounds like you are getting paid overtime, which is something a lot of salaried folks get.

If your not paid the overtime, what's the difference?

Some outfits use historical charging for the basis of future jobs.  So, not charging the hours you work, could end-up with under-bidding future work, and losing money on the job.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

well, maybe the guy screwed up or isn't as efficient as you?  if given the same job, who finishes it first?  maybe he's not charging because he's learning stuff he should already know?

 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

sounds like you, your boss, and your coworker each are in the wrong.

Boss - Sounds like he probably isn't writing good proposals, or is promising work for less than he could get.  he may be held to what the client is willing to pay, but if he is doing work for free that will catch up to him.

Your coworker - so if he isn't charing the job number, what is he charging?  General time?  Your boss should see that and $hit a brick.  If he is charging less than 8 hours then that is 1. illegal, 2. stupid

You - Don't worry about what your coworker is doing or your boss.  you can't control it.  do your work, charge the jobs. and when you are talking to contractors that should be billable under construction administration.  if your boss isn't telling you to bill that stuff he is losing money.  everything you do should be billable.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

"I don't know of any salaried engineers getting working 40 hour weeks and calling it good."


Here you have just meet one 9 to 5er. Europe is a nice place to live.

I'm always astonished at the incredible amount of time you guys spend at work. I understand ocasionally you need to be 14 h at the office, but constantly seems a little too much for me.

About OP, what's the problem if you counter attack with his same weapons and charge even less without telling anyone?
 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Why does he have to have charged anything?  We have a bucket called "uncompensated overtime" wherein we record hours that are never billed.  Of course, almost no one does that either.

Frankly, that's his choice, and all I see is that your attitude coming through loud and clear.

From a pure business perspective, your boss does have a problem, because if the coworker is not billing a large percentage of the overtime, and if there needs to be actual and billable overtime, your coworker will not be able to do the billable overtime and the unbilled overtime.  Of course, your boss may already see that, if he's any good at all at his job, and is simply taking in the free ride he's getting from the coworker.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Shacked...your attitude shows through clearly.  Maybe that's situational and temporary, but it does come through.

I continue to be surprised in this forum that many engineers, who are supposed to view themselves as professionals not "trained tradesmen", feel that they should only work a prescribed number of hours and are then either entitled to overtime pay or just shouldn't be asked to put in extra time to further their training, their experience, and the company for which they work.

As professionals, you shouldn't have to be asked to work extra time.  The work is out there to get done, so do it. If it takes you 50 hours to get your work done then so be it.

I know this is going to sound like one of those stories where I walked 5 miles to and from school in blinding snow, uphill both ways (not much blinding snow in Florida...not many hills either!), but I've been a salaried engineer since the day I graduated college.  I have never been paid overtime (though in each job, I've been compensated at the high end of my colleagues, generally because I proved my worth), have never been asked to routinely put in overtime, but have always done so.  In my opinion (and I'm sure I'll get lots of disagreement with this), professionals should not be paid overtime.  That is reserved for non-professionals and if that's what you want to be, then go ahead.  I choose another route.  

A young attorney, just out of school and licensed to practice, will be expected (by peer pressure and management) to bill somewhere between 2500 and 3000 hours in their first couple of years of practice.  That's between 50 and 60 billable hours a week. Fortunately, almost all that they do is billable, but they still have 5 to 10 hours per week of non-billable time...so they work 60 to 70 hours per week.  Those willing to do so end up as partners and reap the rewards of such.  Those unwilling to do so shuffle off to other firms looking for greener pastures and find the same thing, or they go to corporate law and get paid like other corporate people.

Engineers can be the same.  More often though, engineers are less willing to work that way and end up working for salaries that progress slowly or not at all.

Who knows, maybe your colleague has visions of working his way toward ownership.  He's putting himself in a better position for that than you are.  He's making personal sacrifices that you view as an affront to your sensibilities and work ethic.  Why not compete with him head on and see where you go with that?  Who knows, you might get recognized more for that than griping about him.

Good luck. If your boss doesn't recognize your contribution, then you have only two choices....make a change that he will notice or make a change and work somewhere else.   

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Ron,
Please don't compare engineers to lawyers, while both may be classed as professional, how many engineers do you know that can bill $200+ an hour for their time.  Also note the hard working lawyer bills 60 hours per week (key word bills) so that the firm collects for 60 hours of time.  An engineer working on a fixed fee project works 60 hours but only records 40 hours to make it look more profitable.  So how does the boss know you are short billing to 'help profits' or just not as fast at designing as you should be?
Don't get me wrong, as I was working may way up I often didn't record all my hours or would shift some hours around to make jobs look better, but since I don't work for any of those firms anymore, it didn't really gain me anything, it just made the owner more money.  Of course I like you have always been salary, I'm surprised to read an engineer is actually paid hourly

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

It seems like you know your options, and you are in a better position to know the outcomes than any of us. If you don't like your options or the expected results, that's too bad. However, none of us can do anything about that. Unless of course one of the posters here would like to call your boss or co-worker and give them a stern talking to...

MechEng2005

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

shacked,

Your boss is most likely aware of what your coworker is doing and is playing the two of you off against each other to get more "free" work out of you both. Its a tactic that some employers utilize. Its probably best to keep your mouth shut, as most people resent being "outed".

Best of Luck.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

CFSeng....your comment reminds me of the old joke about lawyers...if you added up their billable time, they'd all be over a hundred years old.

Engineers can charge what they show they are worth in the marketplace.  My rate is and has been above $200 per hour for many years.  My associates are billed out from $160 to $200 per hour, depending on the project and their experience.  All are licensed professional engineers with experience.

In general, we as engineers do not charge enough for our services.  Last weekend I had an air conditioner problem at my house.  I called the service I normally use and they sent an AC Technician out.  He did an excellent job of diagnosis and repair, and got us back online within an hour in sweltering weather.  His hourly charge was $125 per hour.  It was worth it.

I know of many engineering firms that charge from $75 to $100 for their LICENSED engineers!  That's absurd.  You can't get your car repaired, your AC fixed, or your drains unplugged for that rate anymore, and those guys don't have 4 or 5 years of college, 3 or 4 years of internship, monstrous potential liability, and licensing laws that will skin them alive if they screw up.  WHY, WHY, WHY do we value our services so lowly??  I JUST DON'T GET IT!

Raise your rates...you won't lose clients.  I know. I've done it, fearing that I'd never get another client or job.  That didn't happen to me and it won't happen to any competent engineer who does a good job.    

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Ron... I guess there are many unknowns to this discussion... I don't know where you are located or even what you do as engineer and in the end it's really irrelevant.  I agree with you a hunderd and ten percent about the raise your rate comment, at our peak we were charging $180 for principals and $150 for PEs.  It also has always amazed me at how little engineers charge for their time.  However in todays market we are trying to get $125 for engineering and losing bids left and right to firms at half our fee.

I don't know that I agree on your comment about raising rates, we are about out of work and most likely will be closing our doors because we just can't do work as cheap as our competitors. I realize you can infer we must be bad engineers or have high overhead... or maybe just bad clients... or maybe we need more employees willing to work for free... whatever the reason don't assume because you could do it someone else can also.  All firms are not the same.  And by the way, who fixes your car, my mechanic charges $50 an hour.

I really don't mean to hijack this thread since billing rates and how a business is run was not part of the OPs questions.  I guess I feel that an employee working for me needs to record all hours so I can properly manage a job and determine if I am bidding properly.  But as stated earlier I understand why the employee would not record all hours as I did the same thing in my past.

It really comes down to does the OP want to make a career at this place or not.  Either work hard and do your best there or go somewhere else.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

i completely agree with Ron.   

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Ron, I sure do agree with you but as long as there are engineers working out of their house at $60/hour.....what do you do?

 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

JAE...yeah, that's a problem...they are the problem.  If they would charge a reasonable rate, they'd still get work and make a lot more money and not screw up the profession with their devaluation of all of our services.  We have to continue to educate our clients that selection should be qualifications based, not fee based.

One of the worst things that ever happened to our profession was when the Supreme Court decided that we had to remove the bidding prohibition from our Code of Ethics.


CFSeng...we are in complete agreement.  Yes, sometimes you have to compromise your rates to get work in this environment. I agree that you have to account for every hour you can legitimately charge, from every employee.  I know it's tough, but it will improve.  As for my work type and location, I practice in the southeast US, mostly Florida.  My practice is primarily structural and construction forensics.

Shacked...my apologies for hijacking your thread.  Your comments got some good discussion going from all around. Right now you're probably feeling a little "ass-kicked"...turn it around and kick ass.  Show your value,be confident in your contribution....if you feel you're doing the right thing, make the other guy follow your lead.  

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked


yeah shacked, don't get all butt-sore.  Show that assclown you mean business.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

2
When I started working, we were busy and there was only me and one other guy to share most of the work.  He and I both worked 60-hour weeks.  Sometimes I did things that weren't typically part of my job description, sometimes he did.  One time I asked how he dealt with it, and he said he normally worked between 600-700 hours of unpaid overtime a year.  He's been working there for 20 years.

We are supposed to get a bonus based on performance and company success.  That was one of our busiest years in the last 15+.  When bonus time came, no one got a dime, but a month later my boss got a new expensive "company" racecar. (My boss is not the guy I was putting all the extra overtime hours in).   

Anyway, after that I stopped working those hours.  I'm paid for 40 hours, and I work 40 hours.  I will work extra if something I did took longer than it should have, or someone in the field needs office support, but I will not put in week after week of that for nothing.

Now if I'm given a project with an unrealistic timeline I come out and say it.  That guy who I worked all the overtime with, doesn't.  And he's still working 60 hour weeks, killing himself, trying to keep up.

So my point is, if he's working for free, let him.  Do your job and let him worry about doing whatever he has to do so he can sleep at night.  Bosses will take advantage of workers who work for free.
 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Message to leaders of firms out there:

If you always treat your kid as a child, they'll never grow up.

If you don't treat your employees as professionals, with professional respect and offer credit where credit is due, they'll stop behaving professionally and start looking more and more like a union worker bee.

 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Well said, JAE.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

JAE, that is nicely put.  If my boss had that mentality I'd be working a lot harder for him... and I probably wouldn't be third in seniority with only 4 years experience.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

(OP)
Thanks all for your comments. Ya, I see all your points and it has put some fire under my ass to start studying harder for the PE.

Ron, I feel that I must respond to your "hijack".

I see your point as to the professionalism and work ethic but there are some other points that I will have to disagree with you about. you said, "One of the worst things that ever happened to our profession was when the Supreme Court decided that we had to remove the bidding prohibition from our Code of Ethics."

Please explain why this is bad. To me it sounds great.

How else would a single engineer working out of his home be able to compete with other firms if they all couldn't bid?

Not everyone wants to work at some mega-corpo suit & tie office. There are people like myself that would rather have a life that isn't centered around working 50+ hours a week in order to have a lot of money and all the latest trendy crap.

I would much rather go to work in shorts, take a long lunch & catch a few waves, then maybe finish up a project later that night. Ya, I get my work done, and I take a lot of pride in doing a good job, but I don't feel that need to waste my entire life working so much and not enjoy life now. Who knows I may die in a car accident tomorrow.

Other then that, I am in agreement with you, and no need to apoligize for hijacking my thread. I believe that this encourages people to talk more about various topics affecting our profession.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

"I would much rather go to work in shorts, take a long lunch & catch a few waves, then maybe finish up a project later that night. Ya, I get my work done, and I take a lot of pride in doing a good job, but I don't feel that need to waste my entire life working so much and not enjoy life now. Who knows I may die in a car accident tomorrow."

Genius.  I love that paragraph. I learnt that the hard way.   

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Shacked...why would you want to take the low bid for professional services?  Would you do so for medical professional services?  Legal services?

Professional engineering services should be qualifications based, not bid items.  As I noted, I do construction forensics...I see the poor result of low bids every day.  The result can be catastrophic.

As for working in the "mega-corp suit and tie office"...been there, done that as they say.  I couldn't buy into the "corporate control" thing, and fought it as I progressed up the corporate ladder.  So I left that world and started my own business...never regretted nor looked back.  I worked out of my house to start.  I charged the same rates as when I was in the corporate world...because my clients bought my time, whether in the corporate world or by myself.

I once had a partner who said that he would bust his ass until the wind hit 30 mph....then I could find him on his sailboard.  I respect that.  Nothing wrong with it.

 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Before making any suggestions, this is my take on the billable hours.  I'm 2 years out of school.  My boss knows this and thats why my hours are billed less than his, and my paycheck is smaller than his.  With experience comes knowledge, efficiency, and hopefully a larger paycheck.  If I'm at work for 8 hours I bill for 8 hours.  Sometimes I'm more productive than others, but thats exactly why my time is worth less than boss.  Today I was at work for 9 hours but billed 8.  I suppose its for my own peace of mind.

If you feel like you need to do something to try and remedy the situation I would suggest, like others have, to bring it up with the boss in front of the other guy.  Of course you know your boss and the other guy better than I do, so I think you should be careful not to tick anybody off as I imagine that this would only make the situation worse.

Otherwise let it go.  I doubt that this confrontation will cause everybody to see the light and end with a group hug.  Jerks are jerks, pointing out to a jerk that he/she is a jerk usually just makes him/her more of a jerk.  If its the kind of work situation now where your boss will promote the other guy/gal for working "unfairly" for free, then whats it going to be like 5 or 10 years from now?  Maybe its worth it, maybe not.  I don't know.

My suggestion: let it go, focus on yourself.  Conduct your work as you see responsibly fit and I hope your boss will respect you for that... its kinda a crap shoot if you ask me.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Finishing my last thought...

My partner was very responsible...he achieved the right to be so independent by his work ethic earlier in his career, and the fact that he would coordinate his play time and work with each other...not leaving clients hanging.  In my opinion, you can't start your career with that attitude, but at some point, you might be able to enjoy that freedom.

Earn it first, then enjoy it.  Good luck.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

A professional does not give away their work for free lest it be pro-bono work of a charitable nature.

Nobody here is quibbling about putting in some extra hours to fix a screw-up, to meet a deadline, to help out a deserving client or to learn something new.  What we're talking about is the expectation on the part of some engineering employers that a 40 hour work week reallly means 50 or 60 hours EVERY WEEK!  The ones who set 100+% utilization targets for their staff, such that every proposal, training session, staff meeting etc. must be done on uncompensated overtime!  Sustained practice under those conditions IS unethical UNLESS that extra time is compensated for in some meaningful way:  straight or overtime pay for the extra hours, a (far) higher than industry average base salary, time in lieu, bonuses, profit sharing, an ownership stake, or something else mutually agreeable to employer and engineer.  Clearly, compelling subordinate engineers to work under those conditions is similarly unethical.

A professional is, by definition, someone who does something for a living.  An amateur does the same thing purely for love.  Those of you who claim that giving away your time to your clients or to your employer routinely is part of being a professional are not advocating professionalism- rather, what you are advocating is amateurism!

I love engineering- it ideally suits my interests and aptitudes, and according to both bosses and clients I'm VERY good at it.  You could even say that I love my job.  But I NEVER work for free, nor do my subordinates.  Each of us gets a fair share of the profit that our work generates, and when we're doing our jobs well we are VERY satisfied with that compensation for any extra time or effort we put in.  When we're not generating a profit and hence our fair share is zero, we're motivated to FIX that situation for our mutual benefit!

To those of you who don't like the use of the word "unethical" in relation to the giving away or compulsion of uncompensated professional engineering services:  the Code of Ethics of Professional Engineers Ontario, section 7, includes the responsibility of every professional engineer to "uphold the principle of adequate compensation for engineering work".  Umm, last I checked, "squat" or "brownie points with the boss" are not considered adequate compensation!

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Ron, in reply to all of your posts surely one of the reasons that fees are so low is that firms are bidding jobs at lower knowing that they'll get 'free overtime' hence the average hourly rate they pay is less. i.e. wage / 60 hours of work rather than 40. It is people who do that free time that are responsible for reducing fees and engineers pay below that of tradspeople (i know enough to know how much they can earn). I and most people I know get paid or time off for additional hours, hence all hours worked are then booked to a contract. Helps monitoring also. I'm UK here but only after a certain level is overtime free. Being a professional is being skilled and qualified not a sucker.  

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

"brownie points with the boss"

In many places those 'brownie points' are linked to pay raises, promotions etc.  So arguably they can be linked to adequate compensation in a round about way.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

"i haven't clocked my hours before.  because i was learning.  i shouldn't charge for learning.  "

If that were the case, I would almost never charge hours for anything.  Learning is my job.  I find it confusing to think that if I'm learning I'm not working.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

KENAT said "In many places, "brownie points" are linked to pay raises, promotions etc."

I don't disagree- in MANY places that may well be true.

In MOST places, though, that link is tenuous and unreliable at best.  And it disappears entirely with the departure of the boss...

I'll take my "brownie points" in cash, thanks.  

Relying on some boss's ability to notice, recognize, remember and ultimately REWARD my extra effort at a later date without prior agreement (and the institutional authority to carry through I might add) has not proven to be a successful strategy for me.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Most managers that I've seen clearly associate long hours with dedication to the department and strong work ethic.  

So, even someone who always finishes their work on schedule will find that they are perceived to be slacking, while others are slaving away on overtime, paid or otherwise, rather than being perceived as being productive.

Additionally, in some places, paid overtime is considered to be part of the compensation, and people who are productive and finish on time are treated with disdain for ruining things for those that want the overtime.

So, it's possible, and possibly ironic, that the OP's coworker may resent the OP for making him look bad.

It's all a matter of perspective and priorities.  One man's meat is another man's poison.  The OP's boss's valuation system will become clear at review time.  The OP will either be praised for being productive, or chastised for being a slacker.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

I think this whole thread needs a "Your mileage may vary" disclaimer.  Come on people!  Engineering is not always black and white in the technical aspects of our jobs; why should the "soft" skills be any different?

There simply just isn't one blanket that can be thrown over every position/employer/compensation scheme.  Some people have a well-documented policy that converts overtime into additional vacation, some get paid for the overtime, still others get rewarded for their efforts at annual review time.  Shouldn't we as individuals be expected to realize what situation we're in and act accordingly?  I routinely work "unpaid" overtime because it makes me more valuable to my employer and, thus far, I've seen my efforts pay off.  Could I get by with working an "eight-and-skate" schedule?  Probably.  Would this have yielded the same results?  Maybe, but I used my own judgment and determined that I would be better off by putting in some extra effort.  I don't feel cheated in the least.

As I stated in another recent thread, "A good deal is a state of mind."  That applies here as well.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

2
If you've got time enough to worry about whether someone else bills their hours or not, you're being overpaid.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

MIke H.

You usually have very good advice or provide appropriate information, but I find your last statement to be completely off base.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

dgowans:  sure, your mileage may vary with location, industry, specialty etc.  But one thing is certain:  if you get something for free, its perceived value is LESS rather than more.  Pure human nature.  Bosses are humans...well, most of them are, somewhere deep down.  Or at least were...

Don't for a moment confuse an ethical unwillingness to work significant quantities of improperly compensated overtime with being a clock-watching slacker.  HUGE difference between the two.  Being a salaried employee much less a licensed professional demands some flexibility on your time to suit your employers' needs, but that flexibility MUST be a two-way street or you're no longer a salaried employee- you're a wage slave!

Yeah, it'd all be personal except for one thing:  give away your services and you don't just de-value your own- you de-value MINE as well.

Face it:  either someone else is profiting from your extra effort, or worse still NOBODY (at least in your own company) is profiting from this.  Ultimately you're doing charitable work for a profitable company.  How is that in YOUR interest?  You're making a business investment- an extremely unwise one unless you are given a meaningful SHARE of that profit.

You may think you're trading that extra effort for benefit at review time, consideration for promotion etc., but guaranteed there are some institutional limits around what percentage ABOVE the average salary they can give you as a merit increase.

Do the math:  steady 50s should be netting you 25% extra salary.  Steady 60s?  50%.  How're those merit increases working for you in THOSE terms?

 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

"I would much rather go to work in shorts, take a long lunch & catch a few waves, then maybe finish up a project later that night. Ya, I get my work done, and I take a lot of pride in doing a good job, but I don't feel that need to waste my entire life working so much and not enjoy life now. Who knows I may die in a car accident tomorrow."

And you ask how people can judge your 'attitude' from words?

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

moltenmetal,

If my post contained anything that could be interpreted as accusing someone of being a slacker that was not my intent in the least.  I was just trying to make the point that we all need to exercise judgment.

I don't want to get too much further off track by getting into individual numbers, but suffice it to say that I do continually evaluate my own situation (and have done so again after your post) and still don't feel cheated.  This is obviously a function of where I work, because I know there are people who could very easily make the case that they're being exploited.  I realize that I'm quite fortunate in this regard.

We've all got choices; if for whatever reason someone no longer feels like they're being treated fairly by their employer isn't the burden on that individual to address the situation through whatever means they have at their disposal?

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

shacked, how many hours do you think this guy isn't reporting?  I guess I assumed it was just a couple hours a week which is why I suggested letting it go.  If its in the 15-20 hour range I could easily see any of the issues mentioned above.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

SKIAK,
All this guy has to do is come in 30 minutes before, and leave 30 minutes later and tell shacked, he's putting in 14 hour days, and not charging.
winky smile

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

You guys need to cut the OP some slack.  What his co-worker is doing is aiding to the devaluation of our engineering services.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

A lot of the responses to shacked post, including shacked himself, sound like whining union workers.  If some guy wants to work more hours and not bill for them, it his choice.  If it makes you look bad, then its your problem.  Seems like you are holding a grudge against someone who wants to ensure his employer is getting value.  Some employees show value by the quality of their work, and other less talented folks do it by not billing all of their hours.  No big deal unless you don't have much talent and you think your employer should pay for every minute of low quality work you produce.     

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

I also see this as unethical if the boss doesn't know about the unlogged hours.  He is dishonestly improving his image by making himself seem more productive than he really is.  Depending on how employees are being evaluated he may be knowingly tampering with the evaluation data/system to falsely improve his image.

If the boss does know, he may expect this from you and it could make you look less-favorable.  I would bring up the parallel between these unlogged hours and a client wanting unlogged (read: free) engineering services with the boss and see how he responds...  

If the ethics don't get 'em on your side, money usually does.

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

One thing not mentioned here and the only thing I can think of that's a problem with donating time like this (working extra unpaid hours) is that it makes project planning difficult.

Jobs planned using historical booking records are underestimated.  If the job is won, it can only be completed on budget if hours go unbooked.  The cycle repeats.  I saw this all the time when I was in the consulting business.
 

- Steve

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

dgowans:  it was the "eight and skate" comment that I was calling you on.  I'm glad you clarified things.

Be careful how you do that "evaluation" you're talking about.  Keep track of what you put in AND what you get out of it relative to others in your situation.   

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

I don't agree that spending more time on a project and not logging in the hours is unethical.

There is nothing morally wrong with working harder.

Now if it is not unethical, it certainly could be considered problematic for the management.

There are two issues here:

1.  Makes other workers look less hard-working.
2.  Makes it difficult to estimate future projects.

The original post was focused on number 1 above - which I think has been adeqately responded to.

Number 2 is a legitimate concern but it doesn't fall under unethical behavior.

 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

What's wrong with #1?

The other workers are less hard-working,

- Steve

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked


From the perspective of the hard worker there's nothing wrong with issue number 1.

From the perspective of the boss/manager there's nothing wrong with issue number 1 (other than issue number 2).

From the perspective of the other workers issue number 1 is a problem for them in that they look less "hard working".

 

RE: co-worker non claiming all hours worked

Last time I looked, "hard working" did not also mean "efficient, cost effective results" or "high levels of quality" for the work product.  Hard working doesn't necessarily result in "better" work products, depending on how one defines that work product.  If an engineer can consistently turn out superior work product in an 8 or 9 hour day, while a "hard worker" puts out mediocre work product in many more unclaimed overtime hours, which is the better engineer and the one you want to keep around?

If an engineer puts in uncompensated overtime but turns out excellent work product, it's a management bonus- a person who works for lower net wages and still puts out a quality work product.  That's the rub- that then gets expected by management of the rest of the herd.

Now the game becomes who defines the quality of the work product?  Unfortunately in this day and age, most managers have little idea of what the work product IS, so the only measurement they have for productivity is "hours worked" as the measurable item, and assume all quality is the same.

Same mentality that has led to bidding of engineering services - the assumption is that all quality is the same - I mean, after all, we engineers all have to abide by the same rules, regulations, Codes, ethics, as all the other engineers, therefore the work product is all deemed equal, so the only discriminator between engineers comes down to easily measured dollars.

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