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Saving Calculations

Saving Calculations

Saving Calculations

(OP)
How long do you save your calculations?

What are the legal requirements in your state to do so?

flush

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Saving Calculations

I believe that we are keeping our calcs for about 10 years. I have seen drawings from the 60's in our plan room, for any future reference.  The business is located in Wisconsin, by the way.

Joel Berg

RE: Saving Calculations

I don't reside in a state, Mike but my calculations from 1969, the year I started my practice, are still in my files.  How long they will remain there after I have shuffled off this mortal coil...remains to be seen.

So far as I am aware, there are no legal requirements in the Province of Alberta about how long calculations should be kept.  I started with a firm in Toronto, Ontario whose files dated back to the beginning of their practice which I believe was about 1940.  The firm is still going strong even though the original principals are deceased.  I am sure those files remain intact today.  They called it "dead file storage".  Everything was neatly folded up and stored in metal boxes.  

BA

RE: Saving Calculations

(OP)
Including the retired principals?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Saving Calculations

(OP)
Part of the reason I ask, is that there is a 6 year statute of limitations in Washington regarding the professional liability of structural engineers, but the guidance from the state board to save files ad infinitum.  To me, this is inconsistent.

This virus is taking over my garage...literally...and I am looking for an excuse to get rid of some of the older ones.  Not the drawings, just the calcs.  I am thinking of investing in a goat and turning him "accidentally" on purpose loose in the garage.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Saving Calculations

Floor live files - 5 years for general project, 10 years for special/extreme important project, from the date of project completion (construction). Then move to dead storage for as long as the media can survive.  

RE: Saving Calculations

Calculations do not take up very much space.  I don't know what your problem is.  How much filing space can a few calculations take?  Engineering drawings and shop drawings take more space than your calculations, don't they?  If not, perhaps your calculations are too long winded.

Only a six year statute of limitations?  You are bloody lucky.  Until recently, we had no statute of limitations.  Now, we have a ten year limit, but it doesn't seem to work too well because I am now being sued for a report I did in 1994.

BA

RE: Saving Calculations

(OP)
Need any help with that?  I have lots of time on my hands.

Did you ask your lawyer how they can sue past the statute? Is there another issue involved that has a longer statute?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Saving Calculations

Mike,

Let us say there is a 10 year statute of limitations.  This is currently the case in the Province of Alberta.  It was enacted in 1999.  Prior to 1999, there was no statute of limitations, so contractors, engineers, architects and others were liable for consequences of their errors for life and even beyond.

Now, in the new scenario, let us say that Party 'A' sues Party 'B' within the 10 year limit, say in 9 years and 10 months after the last involvement of Party 'B' in the project.  

Party 'B' consults with his lawyer and determines that he relied on the report of Party 'C' to take the actions for which he is being sued by Party 'A'.  

Party 'B' and his lawyer dither about for five more years and eventually decide to involve Party 'C', so they third party him fifteen years after he wrote his report.

And that, sir, is the situation in which I find myself now.

BA

RE: Saving Calculations

(OP)
Boy that's close.  

Remember that the 10 years is more than likely timed from the date of the last transmittal or communication between the original two parties - you and your client, not the third party.   

When did you receive final payment for the report?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Saving Calculations

Hi msquared48

You could free up some garage space by having some of the old paper calculation files scanned onto a computor disc.
That way you still have a record of the calculations should you need them.

desertfox

RE: Saving Calculations

(OP)
That works great if it is done gradually and if all the papers in the file are 8.5 X 11.  Not the case here, plus, I am dealing with records since 1992.  

I discarded everything prior to 1992 in 1998 when I found out the statute of limitations, but before talking to the board.  Oh well....

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Saving Calculations

Are you sure thats not 6 years past the occurrence of the problem e.g. infinity plus 6.

Thats not a joke by the way, thats how it works in some states of Australia.

RE: Saving Calculations

That is also how it works in our state, 7 years past the discovery of the problem.

RE: Saving Calculations

Mike

Why not convert the calcs to PDF files and save them in eclectronic format?

RE: Saving Calculations

Mike,

In lieu of a goat, have you considered an accidental flood?  We lost all our old files a few years back when our basement was flooded.  Best thing that ever happened.

RE: Saving Calculations

I wouldn't trust PC media, a lot of time files are unretriveable due to change in software, or hardware. Also, in the early days, I lost quite a lot of files from crashes, mulfunction hard-drives, or simply by deleting without noticing.
 
Microfilm/microfiche maybe better choice.

RE: Saving Calculations

(OP)
csd and Jike:

I know what you are saying, but, when I had and could afford errors and omissions insurance, I remember the agent specifically telling me that when I retired, in order to be completely protected, I had to maintain the insurance for a minimum of six years past my date of retirement.  I believe that this is where I got the six year figure.  

Maybe I should re-check this as it was an insurance agent that gave me the information...  sadeyes

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Saving Calculations

Mike,

I think it's the Statute of Repose you should be looking at.

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/limitations_by_state/Washington.html

I've been at insurance workshops where speakers have suggested that you dispose of your calculations as soon as the permit is issued.  They inevitably contain errors and it just provides ammunition for the attorneys.   

RE: Saving Calculations

Statutes of limitations in Canada vary from province to province and it sounds as if in the USA it varies from state to state.

If it is seven years from discovery of the problem, then no useful limitation period exists for a contractor, architect or engineer because the problem can arise many years after his involvement.  It can arise in tort where a third party, not connected with the original contract, suffers injury due to the negligence of one of these parties and sues.

Prior to 1999, there was no limitation period in Alberta.  Engineers had to keep their insurance premiums up to date throughout their life and until the estate was settled.  

About thirty five years ago, there was a law office next door to mine.  One of the lawyers was the daughter of a structural engineer who died a few months earlier.  He, or rather, his estate was sued for a sizable chunk of money for something he had done twenty years earlier.  She told me that she was very thankful that she had kept up his professional liability insurance premiums.  In the end, the case was dropped, but it could have easily been different.

BA

RE: Saving Calculations

While it's a nuisance and an expense that you don't get reimbursed for, we keep design notes (calculations) forever. We deal with municipal clients in a limited area (water and wastewater plants), so there's a chance we'll be either asked a question on a design or be asked to modify an existing facility.  Having the calculations are good business.
They're also a good reference for replicate type work.

RE: Saving Calculations

What a business we are in! Anybody recommends this to his kids?

RE: Saving Calculations

Ailmar,

Not really, but my kid became a structural engineer anyway.  But it looks like my grandkids will have more sense.

BA

RE: Saving Calculations

What career choice you have in mind for your grand - An architect (knows how to slave the old generations with non-stoppable creative thinkings), or a lawer :)

RE: Saving Calculations

My granddaughter has completed her bar exams and one year of articling in a law office.  She will be accepted by the bar in about one month.

It is a little early to tell about my two grandsons, but it appears that engineering is not in their sights at the moment.   

BA

RE: Saving Calculations

congrats your granddaughter's acievement, you and your son are well protected :)

RE: Saving Calculations

Yes and I may be needing that protection very soon.

BA

RE: Saving Calculations

Hope she's not joining the other side (easier for her team to win :)  

RE: Saving Calculations

She wouldn't dare!

BA

RE: Saving Calculations

Mike,
As RonRoberts noted, it is the statute of repose that usually gets us.  In Florida, the statute of repose was recently changed from 15 years to 10 years, which seems to be fairly common.

The difference in a statute of limitations and a statute of repose is generally the discovery of a defect.  For a statute of limitations, you generally have some time period to bring action after the discovery of the defect (design flaw, construction flaw, etc.), often 4 or 5 years.  The statute of repose generally runs from the date of issuance of the design or the date of acceptance of the construction.  It is generally the encompassing statute, meaning that if you found a defect in the 8th year after design, you do not necessarily have the full statute of limitation time period to bring action...just until the statute of repose expires.

To answer your original question, we are required by our engineering law to keep all signed/sealed documents for a period of 3 years after issuance.  I keep them for the entire statute of repose period.

Ron

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