×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Question for the Oldtimers??

Question for the Oldtimers??

Question for the Oldtimers??

(OP)
Do any of you oldtimers know the drafting convention for wrought iron beams? I'm from the WF era myself and never came across wrought iron in a building(circa 1887) until now.

My guess is like 12WI40.5, but what is (or was) correct??

Maybe a newbie can answer??

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

When you go back that far (19th century) each  manufacturer had it's own nomenclature - there was no AISC, or similar coordinating agency.

Pencoyd Iron Works (an early producer of both wrought iron and steel beams) use their "Chart Number", such as #1, or # 11, etc.

You can download the 1892 "Wrought Iron & Steel In Construction", by Pencoyd, from this page of my website:
http://www.slideruleera.net/contributions.html

www.SlideRuleEra.net idea
www.VacuumTubeEra.net r2d2

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

What's rot iron?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

(OP)
Sliderule,

Looking up my beam sizes in the old beam book, I'm most likely dealing with Pencoyd 1887 #7. Drawing up the framing plan It does not look right when I called the beam W12X43.5 and thought there must be a drafting convention from that period I could use.

In any case these beams may be history, very heavily rusted flanges, about 50% gone. I don't know if my scheme of fixing them by welding is  going to work with wrought iron.

I look forward to reading the Pencoyd manual. thanks.

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

steelylee

I am not an expert, and most likely you already looked into it, but I thought it was not possible to weld wrought iron.  

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

I don't go back quite that far, but the beam was an I beam, not a WF.  If it was Pencoyd #7, it could have weighed 37.5 to 45.8 pounds per foot, depending on the web thickness.

In my youth, we would have called it 10 I 37.5 but some preferred 10 x 4.625 I 37.5 which gave the flange width as well as the depth.

If it was fabricated by a company other than Pencoyd, it could have been heavier or lighter (see AISC Iron and Steel Beams 1873 to 1952 in SlidRuleEra's library).   

BA

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

(OP)
Thanks BAretired for the info. Now the drawing will look like I know what I'm doing.

My next quest is to determine if A36 steel can be welded to wrought iron with any strength.  

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

Wrought iron is made by flattening of a piece of iron and folding it over and repeating the process to remove the slag. It wasn't very efficient. In Newman's book "Structural Renovation of Buildings," he states welding to wrought iron is prblematic and he references "Field Welding to Existing Steel Structures" AISC Engineering Journal 1st Quarter 1988.

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

Other really good references are:

Readily available:

"Structural Analysis of Historic Buildings"
by J. Stanley Rabun, John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 2000

A little harder to find:

"Kidder-Parker Architects' and Builders' Handbook"
by Harry Parker,Editor-in-Chief, John Wiley & Sons, various editions starting in 1888.

"Handbook of Bulding Construction"
by George A. Hool, Editor-in-Chief, McGraw-Hill, 1920 & 1929

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

The 1921 Edition of "Architects' & Builders Handbook", by Kidder is a free .pdf download (1907 pages, 84 MB) here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=DWsmAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Architects%27+and+Builders%27+Handbook%22&as_brr=1#PPR1,M1

and the 1920 "Handbook of Building Construction", by Hool is a free .pdf download (802 pages, 41 MB) here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=BLEAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA782&dq=%22Handbook+of+Bulding+Construction%22#PPA802,M1

Both books are in the public domain.

www.SlideRuleEra.net idea
www.VacuumTubeEra.net r2d2

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

SE:

Hey, thanks for those links!  I didn't know those were on line, but that's the Internet for ya.  Although, as a qualified "Old Timer", I still get misty fingering through one of those real, old time books!  They just don't write'm like that any more. The new ones are full of equations and codes - it just takes the fun out of it.  sadeyes

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

jheidt2543 - I suppose you could make your local office supply store very happy by printing out E-books and getting the pages bound... then you would have a book that looked like it came straight from Mr. Gutenberg's printing press! smile

www.SlideRuleEra.net idea
www.VacuumTubeEra.net r2d2

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

Okay, I'm a huge engineering book buff and would love to download these PDF books listed above.  Unfortunately, when I click the link, all I see is a table of contents.  Is there something else that I need to do in order to download??

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

Top of the right panel, just under the blue bar:
"Download PDF"

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

Thanks Mike.  I can't find the link however.  Maybe it's not available in Canada due to some weird copyright thing??

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

Try view/zoom/out.
Try a different browser.
 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

Back towards the design intent of his original question:  

As I understand it, the original post opened two problems: The first was how to designate the orginal wrought iron beam - because those beams were really "rotted iron" and can't hold his (new) loads - so the second problem was/will be: "How can I add new steel to old iron and get a real  beam that can carry weight?"

Addressing the second problem:  A couple of people noted the problems welding to wrought iron - because of the iron and carbon "crystals" inside the folded and hammered old iron.  But isn't it also a problem with his irregularly damaged (rusted and holed) iron.  A new steel deflects uniformly under the load.  An old beam with an irregular cross section is going to droop more in some place, less in others where the web is still good.  How will that affect the reinforcing new steel?

Won't he have to calculate the joined beam (bolted or rivted to the new steel) as if the original were 1/4 or 1/2 strength down the entire distance?    Doesn't seem like even a finite element analysis with the orignal steel modeled differently across each busted spot would be accurate enough.

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

(OP)
Just to update the original post. The final recommendation to the Client is to remove the old beams and replace. The original design loads appear to be about half of todays, but in 1887 there were only wagons!

My research into welding the wrought iron found that although you could weld it the weld would not be of structural value due to a high degree of porosity.

I have a couple of old books now on line, many years ago I saved them from the trash believe it or not. They have been a real help in determining how some of the buildings of that era were constructed. Items like flat arch clay tile slabs etc.

Thanks to your posts a great help as always.

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

SteelyLee:

Can you share what books and where on line?

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

(OP)
I was talking about the Kidder and Houle books mentioned by slideruleeara above.

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

If the new beams (the replacement beams) will be exposed as part of the building's "renovated charm" than consider riveting the connections rather than the cheaper welding.

If riveting is too expensive, bolt the connections, but use "square head" bolts and nuts and tie the steel together with "angle iron" connections: they will look "old-timy" enough to keep the "feel" of the original exposed steel.  

Black paint of course.

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

(OP)
I'm sorry, I never mentioned that this was the area under the sidewalk in the basement used for storage and utilities.

Hence my wagon load comment.

However, your suggestions are good if this was an exposed area.

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

my grandparent's furniture from the 60's was "rot" iron.

that's all I know about it.

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

@KootenayKid: I think it must be a Canadian copyright issue, as I cannot download them either.

RE: Question for the Oldtimers??

Well damn it.  Next time I'm down south, I'm going to do some serious copyright violation...

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources