US Electrical Grid Visualization
US Electrical Grid Visualization
(OP)
I just thought this was worth sharing with my fellow information junkies...
http:/ /www.npr.o rg/news/gr aphics/200 9/apr/elec tric-grid/
http:/
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RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
Alan
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"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
good idea, bad use of it in my book.
Steven C
Senior Member
ThirdPartyInspections.com
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
Strange that the spaces with the most energy have the fewest people.
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
In Kansas City for example, Sprint buys 75% of the energy for their HQ campus from the Spearville wind farm near Dodge City. They no doubt pay a premium.
For several years governor Sibelius rejected proposed new coal power plants and said we should build more wind farms instead. We're building wind farms, but people like to have their light and A/C even when the wind doesn't blow. So now we're going to build a coal plant also.
Alan
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"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
What is Spearville Kansas, less that 10,000 people, and Dodge city is what 25,000 people.
And the grid there is the Eastern grid, not the Southern grid.
Now there is no governor Sibelius, so the people in Kansas can get on with what the people in Eastern Kansas want.
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
Several Kansas wind farms are having issues with transmission capacity shortages. Hence the plan for the new line.
Alan
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"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
Who pays the cost of these lines?
How many other Firm power plants will these wind farms shut down?
And why, with all these wind farms, is the local G&T wanting to build a new coal plant?
The reality should irritate you.
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
This is a complicated question. I do find it irritating on one level - that being my monthly bill. My utility just asked for a 17% rate increase to build a new coal plant (in Missouri). And if I want to partake in the 'renewable energy' option from my utility, I pay even more for the privilege. They haven't worked out the cost allocation for the proposed new line, but you can be I'll end up buying my share of it whether I elect the 'renewable energy' rate option or not.
But... I feel the greenhouse gas problem is real and that we need to be doing something about it. The best solution we have now IMO is nuclear. Other technologies such as clean coal, CO2 sequestration are also dispatchable, but deployment is probably quite some time in the future. Wind provides energy (CO2 reduction), but little dispatchable capacity.
Should we be investing in nuclear, clean-coal or wind, or some combination? For now, all are expensive. I don't know.
Alan
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"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
rmw
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
Eric W. Schreiber, BSc(EE), MBA
www.ericwschreiber.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/eschreiber
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
alehman (Electrical)
8 May 09 22:04
"But... I feel the greenhouse gas problem is real and that we need to be doing something about it. The best solution we have now IMO is nuclear. Other technologies such as clean coal, CO2 sequestration are also dispatchable, but deployment is probably quite some time in the future. Wind provides energy (CO2 reduction), but little dispatchable capacity."
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No. Increased CO2 is NOT a reason nor a scientific justification for ANY economic penalty on the world's economy. The (demonstrably false) claims against CO2 and the AGW propagandists notwithstanding, there is NO reason to waste time, money, resources, or power on carbon sequestration or artificially-subsidized fuel campaigns.
Net wind production is about 13 - 17% nameplate rating, and produces significant grid instabilities. No nation, no state - including Spain, Denmark, Germany, CA, and other states have successfully introduced wind power into more than an expensively subsidized advertisement for politicians and their favored companies.
Other points raised:
2) The (short) AC-DC-AC links are used to "connect" the major AC (Very high voltage) grid to each other. Within each grid, each power plant synchronizes its generators to the existing grid frequency - close to, but not exactly at 60.00 Hz. But each grid may be at slightly different frequencies from its neighbor. So, to send power from one grid to the next, its best/chea[est/most reliable to convert the power from AC1 to DC and invert it back to
AC2. Usually, relatively small amounts of power are sent across -lots of Megawatts as req'd, and under emergency or blackout conditions, so regional instability on one side of the DC connection can't get over to the good side and black it out as well.
3) Yes, DC (in theory) loses more cross-country than AC, which is why Edison/GE/DC lost to Tesla/Westinghouse/AC in the 1890's. But, today, when tens of thousands of High Volt AC are sent thousands of miles, AC reactive losses and induced frequency losses between the lines build up more and more complex resistances compared to simple DC resistance losses.
So, paradoxically, at long enough distances and at high enough DC voltages with good enough insulation methods and with the (new) extreme expenses for wider and wider AC transmission line standoff distances and right-of-ways (none of which matter enough at only a few hundred miles AC transmission distance), then, yes, DC becomes better than AC.
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
Your statement about wind generation producing grid instabilities, and no nation successfully introducing it is clearly nonsensical. Thankfully not all of us have our heads in the sand.
Many counties have a significant penetration of wind power, and just as systems can cope with variations in load, they can cope with variations in generation. Every kWh generated by a wind turbine is a kWh not generated by burning a fossil fuel. Have a look at h
which shows the Irish wind generation output. The Irish system is a very small system electrically which appears to be coping OK with a fairly large percentage wind power penetration.
Regards
Marmite
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization
h
I am no expert on the subject, and I too am not 100% convinced that manmade global warming is reality or would be a major problem.
However, I am inclined to listen the preponderance of scientists who do believe that the risk is great enough to begin making the investment in new technologies. This is obviously an investment in the future. It is expensive no doubt, and a gamble. We should not forget that such development has many ancillary benefits such as job creation and spin-off technologies that should not be completely discounted.
If manmade global warming is reality, it most likely won't be a significant problem in racookpe's lifetime. Even if the probability is low, the potential damage to humanity is so enormous that to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the risk, while we can still do something about it, is foolish IMO.
As for wind generator capacity factors - here in the central U.S., large projects typically are 30% to 35%. Less than that is hard to justify economically - even with government incentives.
Alan
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"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney
RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization