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US Electrical Grid Visualization
2

US Electrical Grid Visualization

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

I love that link, found the same place I think you did and wasted 1/2 of friday playing around on it.  

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

Very interesting. However it looks like the wind map is out of date.

Alan
----
"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

1000KV DC transmission lines? I thought Edison lost that battle and everything was AC.

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

Edison did lose. It has, however, been discovered that for very long distances DC has fewer losses.

 

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

yes, but instead of running the HVDC lines to the nearest grid they want to run dedicated lines from the western states all the way to Chicago and other points that want to pay the premium for "Green Energy".

good idea, bad use of it in my book.

Steven C
Senior Member
ThirdPartyInspections.com

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

I don't get it.. Why are there a bunch of AC-DC-AC links that appear to cover only a few miles?  Is that to reduce the distributed/wavelength issues?

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

Three North American systems that are not synchronized.  Back to back AC-DC-AC stations are built on the boundaries to allow power flow since they can't be connected AC to AC.

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

2
(OP)
Keith, did you hold your mouse pointer over the little question mark icon?


"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln  
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies  

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

The dedicated lines are to avoid congestion in the existing network, so cheeper and green power can be delivered to people who don't want power plants or wind farms.

Strange that the spaces with the most energy have the fewest people.

 

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

Right. It's more a matter of where the wind blows vs. where the people are. The Southern Power Pool is entertaining proposals to build a new 765kV line west to east across the state of Kansas. We have lots of wind power in west, but most of the people live in the east. And the higher the voltage, the cheaper the cost per MW of capacity.

In Kansas City for example, Sprint buys 75% of the energy for their HQ campus from the Spearville wind farm near Dodge City. They no doubt pay a premium.

For several years governor Sibelius rejected proposed new coal power plants and said we should build more wind farms instead. We're building wind farms, but people like to have their light and A/C even when the wind doesn't blow. So now we're going to build a coal plant also.

Alan
----
"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

And what they found out from the Spearville widn farm is there is a shortage of capacity. The grids were built to deliver power to the customers there, but being there are few people there the grids don't have that much capacity.

What is Spearville Kansas, less that 10,000 people, and Dodge city is what 25,000 people.

And the grid there is the Eastern grid, not the Southern grid.

Now there is no governor Sibelius, so the people in Kansas can get on with what the people in Eastern Kansas want.

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

Sorry, meant to say Southwest Power Pool. Yes, eastern grid.

Several Kansas wind farms are having issues with transmission capacity shortages. Hence the plan for the new line.  

Alan
----
"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

Why are we building 765kv lines to remote wind farms?
Who pays the cost of these lines?
How many other Firm power plants will these wind farms shut down?
And why, with all these wind farms, is the local G&T wanting to build a new coal plant?

The reality should irritate you.

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

Thank You jreaf, great link!

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

Cranky,
This is a complicated question. I do find it irritating on one level - that being my monthly bill. My utility just asked for a 17% rate increase to build a new coal plant (in Missouri). And if I want to partake in the 'renewable energy' option from my utility, I pay even more for the privilege. They haven't worked out the cost allocation for the proposed new line, but you can be I'll end up buying my share of it whether I elect the 'renewable energy' rate option or not.

But... I feel the greenhouse gas problem is real and that we need to be doing something about it. The best solution we have now IMO is nuclear. Other technologies such as clean coal, CO2 sequestration are also dispatchable, but deployment is probably quite some time in the future. Wind provides energy (CO2 reduction), but little dispatchable capacity.

Should we be investing in nuclear, clean-coal or wind, or some combination? For now, all are expensive. I don't know.

Alan
----
"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

While the map is pie in the sky (not built yet may never be) there are existing DC ties 2 or 3, somehow I think it is 3, into the ERCOT grid.  They obviously aren't 1000KV though.

rmw

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

The problem is some NIMBY dosen't want to look at the wind farms, so they push them to the flyover states, and other out lying areas.

 

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization


alehman (Electrical)     
8 May 09 22:04

"But... I feel the greenhouse gas problem is real and that we need to be doing something about it. The best solution we have now IMO is nuclear. Other technologies such as clean coal, CO2 sequestration are also dispatchable, but deployment is probably quite some time in the future. Wind provides energy (CO2 reduction), but little dispatchable capacity."

----

No.  Increased CO2 is NOT a reason nor a scientific justification for ANY economic penalty on the world's economy.  The (demonstrably false) claims against CO2 and the AGW propagandists notwithstanding, there is NO reason to waste time, money, resources, or power on carbon sequestration or artificially-subsidized fuel campaigns.

Net wind production is about 13 - 17% nameplate rating, and produces significant grid instabilities.  No nation, no state - including Spain, Denmark, Germany, CA, and other states have successfully introduced wind power into more than an expensively subsidized advertisement for politicians and their favored companies.   

Other points raised:

2)  The (short) AC-DC-AC links are used to "connect" the major AC (Very high voltage) grid to each other.  Within each grid, each power plant synchronizes its generators to the existing grid frequency - close to, but not exactly at 60.00 Hz.  But each grid may be at slightly different frequencies from its neighbor.  So, to send power from one grid to the next, its best/chea[est/most reliable to convert the power from AC1 to DC and invert it back to
AC2.  Usually, relatively small amounts of power are sent across -lots of Megawatts as req'd, and under emergency or blackout conditions, so regional instability on one side of the DC connection can't get over to the good side and black it out as well.

3)  Yes, DC (in theory) loses more cross-country than AC, which is why Edison/GE/DC lost to Tesla/Westinghouse/AC in the 1890's.   But, today, when tens of thousands of High Volt AC are sent thousands of miles, AC reactive losses and induced frequency losses between the lines build up more and more complex resistances compared to simple DC resistance losses.  

So, paradoxically, at long enough distances and at high enough DC voltages with good enough insulation methods and with the (new) extreme expenses for wider and wider AC transmission line standoff distances and right-of-ways (none of which matter enough at only a few hundred miles AC transmission distance), then, yes, DC becomes better than AC.

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

Racookpe1978,
Your statement about wind generation producing grid instabilities, and no nation successfully introducing it is clearly nonsensical. Thankfully not all of us have our heads in the sand.
Many counties have a significant penetration of wind power, and just as systems can cope with variations in load, they can cope with variations in generation. Every kWh generated by a wind turbine is a kWh not generated by burning a fossil fuel. Have a look at http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/windgenerationtable/
which shows the Irish wind generation output. The Irish system is a very small system electrically which appears to be coping OK with a fairly large percentage wind power penetration.
Regards
Marmite

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

racookpe is arguing that there's no harm in continuing to burn fossil fuel and that clean energy in any form is not needed. A lot of people agree with him for various reasons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

I am no expert on the subject, and I too am not 100% convinced that manmade global warming is reality or would be a major problem.

However, I am inclined to listen the preponderance of scientists who do believe that the risk is great enough to begin making the investment in new technologies. This is obviously an investment in the future. It is expensive no doubt, and a gamble. We should not forget that such development has many ancillary benefits such as job creation and spin-off technologies that should not be completely discounted.

If manmade global warming is reality, it most likely won't be a significant problem in racookpe's lifetime. Even if the probability is low, the potential damage to humanity is so enormous that to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the risk, while we can still do something about it, is foolish IMO.

As for wind generator capacity factors - here in the central U.S., large projects typically are 30% to 35%. Less than that is hard to justify economically - even with government incentives.

Alan
----
"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney

RE: US Electrical Grid Visualization

There are reliablly recorded levels of CO2 much higher than present levels. Also, "warming island" that has emerged from under the ice of Greenland as Mr. Al Gore cites in his movie, has in fact been photograghed back in the 1950's. Mr. Al Gore also wrongly states the Inuit have no word for Robin,indicating these birds are a recent addition to northern locations.   I believe it is too convenient to hold one's head in the sand and believe all the lies being propagated by wishful politicians. It is tragic that citizens would rather listen to movie star and slick talkers than scientists that have dedicated their lives to delivering reliable electricity and studying climatology: that is the inconvenient truth.   

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