water pumping windmill question
water pumping windmill question
(OP)
Does anyone know the formula for calculating the distance a windmill will pump horizontally?
An 8ft windmill will lift water 180ft with a 1 7/8 cylinder pump. If my static water level is 60ft and the cylinder is @75FT I'm pumping up to the surface 60 ft. I would like to know how far I can pump after that point horizontally. Surely water will move easier horizontally than vertically.
other factors that may influence distance......
1 1/2" pvc pipe at the surface only
drop pipe is 1 1/2" galvanized
I'm at 220 ft above sea level
flow of water is not constant in the pipe
thank you
An 8ft windmill will lift water 180ft with a 1 7/8 cylinder pump. If my static water level is 60ft and the cylinder is @75FT I'm pumping up to the surface 60 ft. I would like to know how far I can pump after that point horizontally. Surely water will move easier horizontally than vertically.
other factors that may influence distance......
1 1/2" pvc pipe at the surface only
drop pipe is 1 1/2" galvanized
I'm at 220 ft above sea level
flow of water is not constant in the pipe
thank you





RE: water pumping windmill question
I'll assume your pump is a few feet above ground elevation and we'll call the pump centerline elevation Hcl.
The underground lift (water level to the ground level)
60 ft = Hw
Available head, Ha, is what's left after you get the water to the centerline elevation of the pump, so that's
Ha = Hp - Hw - Hcl - Hl
This head is "available" to force water through the discharge piping. What's Hl? There are some friction head losses incurred by running the flowrate (remember that corresponding flowrate I mentioned above?) through the vertical well pipe, so we have to subtract that head loss too. There are pipe head loss tables or online calculators you can use to calculate that. So, with the remaining head Ha of 114 ft, and that corresponding flowrate, you can determine what irrigation supply pipe diameter you need.
Say it's 6" diameter.
Now we check it.
Let's say Ha = 180-60-3.6-2.4 = 114 ft. Looking at the pipe pressure-head loss tables, we find for a 6" you lose 33 ft along the total length, so that's 114 - 34 = 80 ft. head remaining at the end of the supply pipe. If that is greater than what you need to pressure the end-of-the-line sprinkler, you're OK. If not, you need to increase the pipe diameter. and do this check calculation again.
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"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
The windmill characteristic will determin power output and hence how far you can lift and pump the water.
Mark Hutton
RE: water pumping windmill question
The cylinder has an eight inch stroke and will pump .0960 gallons per stroke. With a 15-20 mph wind the windmill cylinder will pump around 180 gallons an hour and the total lift this cylinder is capable of lifting is around 180 ft. Vertically I will be pumping 60 ft, once at the surface I want to run 1 1/2 inch pvc pipe over to a ground tank. From windmill to where I want to dig the tank there is maybe a 2-3 ft elevation increase. I want to dig my tank a far away as possible so I need to find out how far this thing will pump horizonally. thanks
RE: water pumping windmill question
Also because of the pumping requirements, would the pump be sucking water vapor with a 60'lift afterall atmospheric pressure(appx equivalent to 33'water) is the driver in this lift.
RE: water pumping windmill question
If this is the case it is reasonable to assume that there is still approx 120 ft of head (pressure) left to deliver water thru your pipe line. friction loss thru 1 1/2 PVC pipe is something like 0.2 ft / 100 ft which means you could pump thru something like 550ft of horizontal pipe with an increase of elevation of 2-3 ft.
RE: water pumping windmill question
You are correct in estimating the amount of pipe that the windmill will transfer based on the operating data supplied by the OP. Key here is the wind speed this is based on. From my estimates the windmill is generating around 145Watts to move the water (Vertical or horizontal will require the same amount of energy). This is at 13 - 17 knots of wind.
A more relavent question here is what is the expected average wind for the windmill? This will determine the averge performance for the windmill and therefore the pump. The information can be obtained from the Bureau of Meterorology for your area. For example Roxby Downs is not a high wind area and experiences winds of less than 7m/s (13knots) for 97% of time and is an average of 4.7m/s (9 knots). The design data given above by the OP would not be correct for the example location. Because the average wind speed is significantly less than the design wind speed the output would be lower. Assuming a directly proportional relationship for torque and wind turbine speed will give effective turbine power output of 50Watt and from this a flow of 400l/hr (105USG/hr) at 32m (104ft) head (lift). A very diferent system!
Sory about the mixed units. It comes from a mixed past!
Mark Hutton
RE: water pumping windmill question
Agreed, there are many variables to consider, I have just taken the case as presented 180ft / 180 GPH and assumed a steady flow which in real life it won't be - but at least this gives a starting point for consideration.
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -
RE: water pumping windmill question
Apakrat - the pump is vertically mounted situated 75ft below GL so plenty of static head to close NRV.
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
Thank You Artisi
Sometimes my stupidity over exposes my true school'n.
Would still like to offer a thought about the windmill delivery flow from the perspective of a proven idiot.
To verify what BigInch & CVG are saying, Ya might wanna check out---------
http://w
My personal thought is based on----
Five ft. of 1-1/2" PVC has a volume of 0.459 gallons. To reach a flow rate of 5 fps, causing a friction loss of 3 psi per 100 ft of pipe, the windmill must deliver 0.459 gal. per sec.
At 0.459 g/s using 0.096 gal. per stroke, needs 4.78 strokes per second to reach a point of 5 fps flow rate.
The 15-20 mph wind causes a stroke averaging every 0.52 seconds, (180/0.096), or for calc purposes, 17.5 mph wind causes a stroke every 0.52 seconds
Usually, a windmill will be shut down for structural safety at wind speeds of 40 mph or less.
Using 40 mph/17.5 mph = 2.786 strokes per 0.52 seconds equaling 4.395 strokes per second.
The 4.395 strokes X 0.096 gal. per stroke = 0.422 gal. at a flow rate slightly less than 5 fps.
At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -
RE: water pumping windmill question
Did you mean that the windmill would be shut down for structual safety at wind speeds above 40 mph or below 40mph? Actually, the only time I shut it down is if a hurricane is approaching. This windmill is almost 90 years old and it runs in above 40 mph winds without failure. Windmills are designed to furl out of the wind so as not to spin at such a high rate of speed. When the wind picks up they will furl out and slow down but continue to pump. Even during a hurricane I will not apply the brakes but put the tail in about a 45 degree angle just to slow it down. So what does everyone think?....... dig the tank at 500ft?
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
Better to go with Solar Water Pumps; Solar Water Pumps livestock producers and many other applications
Replace the (2) windmill water pumping with Solar Water Pumps: no problem, no maintenance problem.
RE: water pumping windmill question
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
Just used a guestimate based on grampa's home made wind gage used some 60 plus years ago and info the Internet wind generator people publish.
My view of condition at 500 ft. The friction loss, when the wind is at 40 mph, is estimated at 4 psi per 100 ft or a total of about 46 ft of loss from original 180 ft height.
This drag, during high wind conditions, could be considered a positive feature, actually acting as a drag-break.
Story- On record are two young Aggie graduates purchasing a large ranch near Jal, NM back in 1968. Seems the ranch had a windmill on about every other square mile an 15" deep native grass except for a circular grazed out area around the windmills.
The young owners scattered water troughs around the total grazing area, connected by gravity flow to the windmills with 3/4" black ABS pipe. Stay with Your windmill.
At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -
RE: water pumping windmill question
Did I mention sometimes they run in the dark? "
The best reply in Eng-Tips so far this year
RE: water pumping windmill question
For the OP 500 ft of pipe is correct if your average wind speeds are around the 15 - 20 mph most of the time. If the winds are less than that for most of the time the windmill will sit there and stall. So the prevailing wind conditions will determine the maximum length of pipe that can be used.
Mark Hutton
RE: water pumping windmill question
http://www.cometwindmills.com.au/solar_v_wind.html
RE: water pumping windmill question
Well ... not exactly.
First, as long as there is wind enough to lift the water to the surface + a bit or so, water will flow in a 1-1/2 inch horizontal pipe. The question then becomes not where to dig the tank, but how big to dig it. With a pipe inlet head of only 1 ft or so, a pipe length (from 0 to ∞) , you will get a flow, which will be anywhere from 0 to a theoretical max of
piston speed * x-sectional area.
So, since now I managed to make this a question of only how big to make the tank, it demonstrates that tank location is independent of distance from the well head. I guess that's why when you see those nice artistic senia-colored photographs the stock tank is always in the immediate vicinity of the windmill. So, I go back to what Artisi said, "gravity flow to anywhere". If you had a 180 ft tall tank, you could pressure flow if you wanted to too. But he wants his tank far away for some reason, so add some pipe.
P.S. when I run these tiny flowrates in my Churchill program, I get only a few feet head loss, so I'm ignoring the system curve and
Then figuring only a known pump power from the wind and lifting to various heights above static water level, I get these flowrates, attached. Of course the pipe system curve should be added to be technically correct, but I have to do something other than this today.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
Sorry if I caused offence, it was not intended. I do follow your argument, however if the discharge pressure on the pump is too high the pump/windmill will simply stall. There will be a maximum torque along the constant power curve where the turbine speed will be too low to keep it spinning and the pump will stall. The design point given by the OP is for a "moderate breeze" (4 on the beaufort scale). For some areas this is a good mild day, in relation to wind strength. In other areas the normal wind strength may be much lower, in which case the windmill will be stalled most of the time. This is my point.
Mark Hutton
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
Gravity flow seems the best way to go, look at figure 2 on the above link which shows the discharge from the well above ground level - using this arrangement with the tank at ground level I guess the distance the tank can be form the mill is infinity.
The question really comes down to how far can the pumped flow that is varying from 0 to theoretical max be delivered thru the 1 1/2 pipe line at the variable pressures at the the well discharge enabling a reasonable flow to be maintained with all the variables acting on such an installation?
RE: water pumping windmill question
ARTISI, gravity flow is an option. Now we have another question..........If I were to to use gravity to flow to my tank 500' how high would I need my discharge at the windmill to keep it flowing at a resonable rate in 1 1/2" pvc pipe? I LOVE THIS FORUM!
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
As we don't know the mill flow rate at a head of lets say 80ft (standing water level to the discharge into the primary tank) how about assuming 5GPM - (no need to consider minimum flows) the flow thru your 1.5" PVC line from the primary tank to the final point is a function of the friction loss / distance / head available in the primary tank.
Using 1.5" sch 40# PVC pipe friction tables the head loss at 5GPM is 0.2ft / 100 feet of pipe run.
Therefore, calculating with a head in the primary tank of 20ft the distance from the primary tank to the final destination can be:
20 ft (head in the tank) / (0.2 friction loss per 100ft of pipe) = 100 x 100 = 10,000 ft pipe run.
If the final discharge point is lets say 3 ft above ground level the the available head reduces to 17ft / 0.2 x 100 = 8500ft pipe length.
You will need a stuffing box at discharge of the rising main from the well.
RE: water pumping windmill question
Maybe I just don't understand how you're using the term "stall". The usual IC engine interpretation is stop working, in which case I would assume flow = 0 and windmill rpm = 0. But for a windmill (with wind) rpm not stopped and a power input of P = k * Q * H / eff, and it means H is Max and Q is min for the current wind power output. Theoretically meaning Q and rpm cannot = 0, unless H went to infinity and the pump exploded, OK, yes.
Artisi,
Yes. inovermyhead almost gave the answer. He says "If I were to to use gravity to flow to my tank 500' how high would I need my discharge at the windmill to keep it flowing at a resonable rate in 1 1/2" pvc pipe? "
Theoretically as you approach zero flow, the distance you can flow approaches infinity, so the practical limit is found when you know what minimum flowrate is acceptable to you. (While still recognizing that lower flowates can and will occur, at least until you get to the point where pipe discharge head equals the back pressure on the pipe outlet, if ever.
He just didn't say what value he considers "reasonable".
CVG,
The 50 psi you mention is the maximum pressure, when Q = 0 "stalled" condition. The pressure could be much less, almost 0 psig, if system Q is max at pump runout flow.
Artisi,
Might be OK, IF 5 gpm is inovermyhead's idea of THE "reasonable" flowrate.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
See link and attached file
ht
I'm not sure what a stuffing box is but you should be able to just run your pipe directly from the well to the tank. I really don't see an advantage to using gravity flow which would require an additional tank or standpipe at the windmill.
RE: water pumping windmill question
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
1) ground elevation at the windmill is 2 - 3 feet lower than at the site 500 feet away. since the two tanks would be hydraulically connected, water surface elevation in the two tanks will eualize and be nearly the same. This will result in a a) remote tank which will not fill to the top, or b) you have to excavate the remote tank 3 feet into the ground to install it or c)you need a taller tank at the windmill in order to completely fill the remote tank.
2) Head loss (back pressure on the pump) to convey the water to the remote tank is approximately the same regardless whether it is pumped or flows by gravity. Gravity does not move water without a differential in head. Approximately the same pumping energy is required either way. Since posative displacement pumps have a nearly vertical pump curve, pumping rate does not vary much with pressure (see the reference I attached previously).
3) Depending on the head differential in the two tanks and the pipe size, it might take quite a long time for the water to move to the remote tank. This would require significant capacity in the first tank.
3) Two tanks will require more capital expenditure and more O&M.
I guess the main benefit of two or more tanks is that you can store water in case the wind stops blowing.
RE: water pumping windmill question
The point was to have the primary tank located next to the mill elevated well above the final discharge point so gravity flow could take place, also the primary tank only needs to be large enough to retain a theoretical maximun flow from the mill which exceeds the outflow - a function of available head in the tank /friction loss/flow rate.
RE: water pumping windmill question
elevating tank 1 so that it can flow into tank 2 is certainly an option. However, the pump still has to work just as hard to pump up to elevated tank 1 as it would to pump directly to the remote tank 2. And according to the OP, the pump has plenty of capacity to do it. So unless you need the extra volume of storage in two tanks, than what's the point of spending the extra money for two tanks?
RE: water pumping windmill question
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
Thought you were going to get me on that one, didn't you?
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2000
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
A stuffing box causes a negative, (drag), impact on the windmills capability.
Extending the head pipe 20', increases the difficulty of pulling sucker rods to get access to a pump during maintenance.
At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -
RE: water pumping windmill question
The way round this problem is to use a rising discharge pipe fitted to the well-head external to the mill support frame,ie, 2 x 90 bends or similar.
RE: water pumping windmill question
At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -
RE: water pumping windmill question
Do you really think you would be able to measure any significant drag on the mill pump rod as compared to other losses in gearbox and linkages etc.
RE: water pumping windmill question
At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
But, me thinks the number one priority would be to site the windmill at the best supply of water.
At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
I've flipflopped it for you into typical centrifugal format.
Which look a lot like the power curves in my diagram attached above.
While they are "vertical"ly oriented, they are not so nearly as vertical as the typical pd pumps we usually see and with these there is quite a lot of variation in flow vs head. In fact flow variation with head doesn't look very constant at all no matter which way you flipflop the curves.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question
I'm thinking about purchasing a water pumping windmill to maintain the water level of my pond. It was interesting to read the different thoughts regarding your application. Just curious how your project worked out. Thanks.
RE: water pumping windmill question
Maybe I'm just trying to over simplify the obvious but you will be the only person who can determine what an acceptable flow rate, be it GPM or GPH, at at acceptable distance will be, which seemed to be the original question. It seems that with all the variables involved it may be easier to just purchase some piping, preferably where you can return any unused for a refund, connect to the windmill, layout at different distances and each time check the flow output at different wind speeds. When optimal flow + acceptable wind speed + acceptable distance is achieved "X" marks the spot (of + aw + ad = X).
RE: water pumping windmill question
I'm glad you asked! I'm wondering if I should start a new thread or stay here. I had decided to change the location of my earth tank and gravity feed my water to the tank. Now, I have a whole new set of problems.......My tank is now about 1/4 mile away from the windmill and I am gravity feeding the water to it. There is about a 30ft difference in elevation and my flow rate is pretty good. My output at the tank is slightly more than my output at the windmill in about a 10-15mph wind. The problem I am now trying to overcome is my 1/4 mile long drain pipe is airlocking at times. To overcome the problem I installed 4 flapper type check valves along the 1/4 mile run of pipe and ran a pipe over to my submersible pump hooked up to a landscape timer. WOW! This is getting complicated! See if you can follow.... When the timer comes on around ten in the morning the wind is usually blowing so the windmill is pumping, it only comes on for 2 minutes. This causes the 4 check valves to close which pressurizes the 1/4 mile long pipe and then shuts off. When the pressure drops in the line the check valves open allowing air to enter which keeps the 1/4 mile line from airlocking.(sometimes) I have not worked all the bugs yet and would like to get some thoughts from others...Any Ideas?
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
I'd like to find out more information about your windmill (make, size, where you bought it, etc.) This probably isn't the forum to do that. How can I get a hold of you? Thanks.
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
RE: water pumping windmill question
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: water pumping windmill question