Why get an SE license?
Why get an SE license?
(OP)
I'm trying to decide if an SE license will be of enough benefit to me at this point in my career and I have a couple of questions. I am a licensed PE in Colorado (I provide structural engineering services) and at this time I am not limitted, legally, to the type, size, or use of building that I can design in Colorado. Has anyone summarized the states' requirements/limitations for comparison concerning PE, SE (and an architect for that matter), legal limitations? As a civil in California one can design up to 30 stories in most areas but not hospitals. In Utah you need to be a structural for anything over 2 stories commercial. That is quite a difference. It would be helpful to compare the states at once. Thanks





RE: Why get an SE license?
RE: Why get an SE license?
RE: Why get an SE license?
Many states, when changing to SE requirements, will either give a grace period for compliance, grandfathering, or some combination of these.
What JAE said is correct...we are moving that way. JAE is an SE and a PE, so he's been both routes. I do not have an SE, but am considering it, just for the reasons JAE mentioned and to further my practice in other states that already require it. Believe me...I dont' relish the thought of another exam series...but you do what you need to do! Sure would be embarassing to fail it after over 30 years of extremely varied practice!!
RE: Why get an SE license?
But the NCEES is moving towards a combined SE exam (SE-1 and SE-2 together - 16 hours for one test) and this means that the only other 8 hour exam you could eventually take would be the general Civil PE exam.
What might happen is that many states someday might look at the Civil PE and say that it isn't applicable to structural engineering. So you would be stuck taking the new 16 hour SE exam anyway.
We have some folks here that have taken the SE-1 but not the SE-2. In some cases, they might have to re-take the whole 16 hour SE exam to get an SE credential.
RE: Why get an SE license?
I worked at a firm where the SE was a requirement for promotion. A lot of good engineers took the test and couldn't pass it. While pressure wasn't the main reason, I'm positive it contributed.
RE: Why get an SE license?
RE: Why get an SE license?
The SE III test is an Oregon and Washington only test, not national.
Pass rate in Oregon was 0% for the SE III for the past several years, but a couple of people passed it this year. One in my office !!!
An SE license is needed to design occupancy catagory 4 structures in Oregon and Washington.
Too bad there's not a consistent requirement between states. I bet that makes it really hard to get reciprocity.
RE: Why get an SE license?
RE: Why get an SE license?
I am licensed in CO and as far as reciprosity is concerned you would be eligible in most states. The exceptions I am aware of are WA,OR,CA,IL, and NE. I am sure there are a few others though. I do agree with the other posters as it will be better to get under your belt as once you achieve the SE status, if the rules change as they undoubtedly will, it will be difficult to take away. I am certain you can sit for the SE II in CO. Even if you register for the exam in another state you can have it proctored in the state you live. (you need to do this early though as it it an NCEES option, for an additional fee which is far les than traveling and they need to arrange to have your "seat" there)
As far as Architects are concerned, they should not be in the business of designing beams. Although structural classes are part of the college curriculum, legally I do not believe they can design any structural elements. In some states however there are small structure limitations that allow design without a PE. TN is such a state (at least at one time) which someone could design wood structures less than 3500 or 5000 sf and less than two stories (again I am testing my memory though and of couse laws change regularly) In FL you cannot even design an awning without a PE's seal.
Gumpmaster,
I am looking for some info on the SE III, but I have been struggling to get anywhere with WA, other than it is 8 hrs and given once a year. Do you know where I can get some information regarding the test format and study materials? Any insight would be appreciated. My goal is to get licensure in OR, and I currently have taken the SE I and SE II.
Thanks in advanse.
RE: Why get an SE license?
There is not a wealth of information about the SE III. SEAW has a study course on it which you can order on video. The content is good, but the video quality is marginal at best.
Fall 2011 is the last date the SE III will be offered. April 2011 will be the first NCEES SE test which will replace the SE II/SE III combination. WA & CA have agreed to SE comity with this test, OR should do the same. Personally, I'm waiting until the April 2011 test.
RE: Why get an SE license?
As it turns out I will need to take the Civil Exam to get registered in OR with a PE license before I can get registered as an SE, which means I would not take the WA SE II till the fall of 2010, so more than likely I will be taking the combo exam in 2011.
Thanks again,
RE: Why get an SE license?
RE: Why get an SE license?
RE: Why get an SE license?
RE: Why get an SE license?
I am a structural engineer in Illinois. I have no interest in the rest of the civil world, so the first license I obtained was the Illinois SE by taking the NCEES SE I and SE II exams. I do not have an Illinois PE license and do not intend to get one.
I have now obtained my license in Massachusetts by comity. Massachusetts states that I am now a "Registered Professional (Structural) Engineer."
1. May I sign my name with "PE, SE" initials behind it, or do I still only use the SE initials?
2. Does the order matter (PE or SE first)?
RE: Why get an SE license?
In Colorado, the licensing is as a Professional Engineer only, regardless of whether it is CE or SE. So. in Colorado, I use PE on all documents.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Why get an SE license?
RE: Why get an SE license?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Why get an SE license?
If you were writing an article for some publication, would you include both PE and SE in your title?
For example see the Structural magazine article on the Burj Dubai (Dec 2009) written by William F. Baker, P.E., S.E., James J. Pawlikowski, S.E., LEED AP.
I doubt that UAE uses PE, SE, or LEED AP designation for their engineers...
RE: Why get an SE license?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Why get an SE license?
Taking the SE II now, and not taking an appropriate SE III exam before they are discontinued in 2011 or 2012 may result in a need to take all 16 hours of the new exam to license in SE states.
This is obviously subject to change.
It is my understanding that Texas may adopt an SE rule, but will allow currently licensed engineers practicing in structural disciplines to continue.
RE: Why get an SE license?
I recently contacted the Chairman of the Texas Board of Professional Engineers Structural Engineering Task Force (Bob Navarro) regarding the article he wrote linked from the SEAoT website:
http://www.seaot.org/pdf_files/SETF_2010.pdf
Specifically, I asked him if current practicing structural engineers holding Texas PEs (such as myself) will simply be able to submit an affidavit to bypass the need to take the new 16hr exam to obtain a Texas SE license. He said that's the idea. (as the article states).
So, that is very good news.
RE: Why get an SE license?
RE: Why get an SE license?
In order to receive comity in Cali for a PE, it looks like I'm going for the Cali Civil license. (Still waiting to see if the client that wants it, wants it bad enough)
4 hours of surveying
and 4 hours seismic apps
You can still do a lot of structural as a civil in Cali, from my understanding.
I'm still not clear if I can take the SEII out there after this. Hopefully things will get clearer all the way around by the time I'm ready. I think a nasty 16hr exam might be good for me.
RE: Why get an SE license?
Will they have to take the 16-hour S.E. exam, or will they be grandfathered in on a case-by-case basis?
RE: Why get an SE license?
Note that the new 16 hr exam is not the same as the current or past exams.
RE: Why get an SE license?
I am taking the new 16 hour exam next spring.
RE: Why get an SE license?
Current pass rates for SEII exams are on the order of 25%, among those who choose to take that exam. Beginning next year, every prospective SE will be required to take an exam designed to cover more material in greater depth, so I expect passing rates in the 10-30% range. Many others will opt for Civil/Structural, and I expect many states will allow some structural work to be done under this license, but the only path from PE C/S to SE is to take 16 more hours of exam at significant, additional expense.
I object to creating a barrier to entry into any profession which in unnecessarily burdensome and has been not demonstrated to be needed. There has not been a rash of PE-engineered structural failures. No one has suggested that those of us currently practicing (at least not most of us) are not competent to do structural design.
I suspect that NCEES saw revenue and decided to fix a problem which does not exist. Why get $200 in revenue when you can get $1000 (or whatever the new test will bring.) I also think that the licensing board representatives to NCEES have decided that uniformity across the states is more important than fairness to those purchasing engineering services.
My predictions:
Fewer pass the exam
Fewer engineers will practice in structural
Prices for services will rise.
People will look for ways around buying "over-priced" services
There will be more failures of un-engineered structures, not fewer.
RE: Why get an SE license?
I just wonder how what the reaction will be when folks realize the new SE1 and SE2 are not the same as the old exams, since they will obviously need to incorporate the SE3 stuff in order for CA, OR, and WA to go along.
Peronally, I like your 18 year old Nascar driver analogy. I think that if a person wants to do SE level work (if the SE is required, like essential or hazardous facilities) there ought to be some barrier to entry like the SE exam. If a guy is qualified, they should be able to pass the exam.
RE: Why get an SE license?
In CA and other western states they allow for this by permitting PEs to design some structures. But in Illinois, an SE is required to design any structures - even the proverbial brick sh*thouse. If the new 16 hour exam is intended to have the same level of difficulty (read pass rate) as the SE3 exam, it will make things unnecessarily burdensome for your typical structural engineer to be licensed in Illinois.
Let's hope that the intention is to make it much more similar to the SE1 + SE2 combo that is currently required in Illinois and in other states than to make it similar to the SE3...
RE: Why get an SE license?
If the current test were a bad test, then we should see fault in the work of PE's which passed the SE I exam. I propose that we do not see that trend.
In part, it is the way by which this is being done which irritates me. I am concerned for my profession, since I have seen this happen time and time again in various professions. The bar is raised for new entrants until it really is meaningless for all but the guys who view themselves as the elite practitioners. It is unnecessarily exclusionary. NCEES does not seem to have listened to the PE/SE community in this process. AASHTO does the same thing - they work in a vacuum, as representatives of their respective state agencies, without industry and the public having real participation. NCEES (and AASHTO) have what amounts to absolute control over their respective standards. If the federal government or a state agency were to pass a rule specifying such a change in policy, it would be subject to public comment. By working through NCEES, we have state agencies making new rules which are not subject to legislative review or public scrutiny.
As the only public with a sophisticated knowledge on this subject, we need to pressure our state boards to evaluate the needs of our own state, and bring reason to this process.
Raising a bar is nice for an individual desiring to get better or learn more, but it is not the right thing to do as a matter of public policy. States should be licensing for minimum competency required for the profession.
As an aside, states do not create levels of competency among doctors in order to restrict practice (although I might argue that they should.)
RE: Why get an SE license?
RE: Why get an SE license?
Right there with you on that.
There is nothing wrong with specialization, as long as it is either required to properly do the work, or it is at the option of the buyer of the services.