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Ethics of the job search
3

Ethics of the job search

Ethics of the job search

(OP)
A few questions and a scenario

1) If you are laid off, are you obligated to bring that up in the interview or can you dodge it as it's a liability and make it appear as if you are just looking for a new position? At the time I was contacting other companies I hadn't been officially laid off yet, so the fact that I was looking for a new job was in fact a correct statement. It still is for that matter of fact.

It's not that I don't want to be truthful, I just don't want to hurt my chances for a layoff which i still believe was unjustified given the circumstances.

2) If you were contacted discretely by a company which is unhappy with their current employee and considering replacing them, would you feel guilty discussing a position with them? The reason I feel a bit guilty is that by entering in discussions I feel like I could be responsible for said parties loss of job if I was offered a position. Where does ethics, guilt and sensitivity rule into this? I know it'd be a bitter pill for me to swallow to take someone elses job, especially after just being laid off myself.

The other item connected to that is, I wonder if I'd be entering a no win situation as well.

In any event I have talked a bit to the company listed in situation 2 and they bluntly stated the gentleman isn't getting the work done on time.

It looks like the position could be fairly demanding, not unlike most positions in my field.

Just wondering your thoughts.

 

RE: Ethics of the job search

I have been very honest over the past four months of looking, but few answers and no interviews.  So much for being honest.  neutral

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Ethics of the job search

(OP)
Yeah I know everyone understands the current economic conditions.

I guess my main problem is I'm in a particular sector that was supposed to be relatively recession proof. But my particular business laid off 50 people.

I just don't want to have to deal with the liability of explaining the unusual layoff. There was one other cut in my direct department and 50 total in the company.

Then again there is a real possibility they may find out.

RE: Ethics of the job search

2
Don't try to butter it up; you come across as evasive, which basically ends the interview.  Just flat out tell 'em what happened, wait two heartbeats, and ask a question about something else.  As in, question answered, case closed, move on.

Don't answer questions that weren't asked; just the ones that were, honestly and without hesitation.

Don't worry about replacing someone.  It happens.  I've been involuntarily replaced several times.  My current record is six.

... no, not discharged six times; replaced by, ultimately, six people.  Major cost savings there.  winky smile



 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Ethics of the job search

Mike:  I thought you had your own business.... Are you looking for work?  Where are you in the States?  Have things gotten THAT bad?!?!?

We're just starting to suffer layoffs here in New Zealand.  Started in earnest about a month ago, with the early trickle perhaps two and a half months back.

YS

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

RE: Ethics of the job search

I was planning to retire from a major medical electronics manufacturer, but that longtime job went away when my mentor and protector, The Chairman, died.  

He liked me, or tolerated me, because I always told him the truth as I saw it, no matter how unpleasant, no matter how much it upset Top Management... and it usually did.  Honesty is a congenital flaw, shared by my late father and my sons.

Since then, I've had some great jobs, some bad jobs, some lean years, and eaten my retirement funds, but right now, I'm working, for an engine dealer in New Orleans, trying to learn all about Diesel and natural gas powered generators before they find out how little I really know about anything.


I keep dreaming that I'd like to just build wooden boats... but first I'd have to learn something about boats, and something about woodworking.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Ethics of the job search

Mike,

I know many for whom a dream of learning anything comes as a nightmare.

Ciao.

RE: Ethics of the job search

EngineerDave: I have two thoughts regarding your current situation.

Firstly, regarding the 'honesty' policy. Its probably a lot easier to excuse given the current climate, as just about everyone is looking at cutting back. It also depends on who is interviewing you as to whether you'll get away with honesty or not. I've managed to pull it off twice now, having been made redundant when the economic upturn was in full swing. I don't know if I'd have gained the same result if HR was interviewing me, but in both cases, since the people interviewing me were going to be working with me, I'd say that they're aware that you won't put up smokescreens.

For the second one, there are two perspectives. Having viewed the amount of damage that a recalcitrant employee can do, if they've gone far enough then people will take those sort of steps to get rid of someone, though they may also be being honest about their intentions. The other perspective is that if they're prepared to behave that way regarding their employees, then its quite likely that you'll get the same treatment should they hire you. This requires careful analysis of the situation, and a decent assessment of your potential employer where possible.

Both situations require some consideration, including looking at who is likely to be interviewing you. I hope that your job search goes well for you.  

RE: Ethics of the job search

Layoffs result from a variety of reasons, the first of which is not usually your performance, particularly if part of a multiple person layoff.  Like MikeHalloran said...answer it and move on...there's a good chance they already know it, so don't leave it out...they will brand you as disingenuous.

RE: Ethics of the job search

Answer what is asked truthfully:  "I was laid off with about 50 of my colleagues in a corporate downsizing".

Answer any other questions which might follow on, truthfully.  Rehearse answers to follow-on questions that might be reasonably expected.

There is no need to volunteer this information.

A reference from your previous employer, even if it is NOT from your direct supervisor, can be helpful to allay fears on the part of prospective new employers.

Do not list your former employer as your present one, unless you have not YET been laid off.  Any decent interviewer will already know that you're no longer employed there, if they bother to read your resume.

As to replacing people:  you should have no ethical qualms about replacing an incompetent, or an employee who is otherwise non-functional.  But since you do not KNOW that the person you're replacing posesses these flaws, you have to at least consider that the person or organization doing the hiring/firing is the party at fault.  In that case, you could be signing up for yet more pain.  If it's fair game for them to ask you why you're no longer working, and they bring up the topic of replacing existing employees, it's fair game for you to ask why others are not working out and need replacement.

RE: Ethics of the job search

Being 'laid off'/made redundant is surely just a matter of being surplus to staffing requirements at a particular time and place, and nothing to be ashamed of or hide?

Being dismissed, of course, is a different ball-game.

RE: Ethics of the job search

Some HR departments make no distinction between having been fired, and having been laid off/ surplused/ right-sized.  I.e., attitude-wise, they seem to be stuck in the fifties.

If you are in today's job market, you are actually quite likely to meet these people, or at least speak to them on the phone, because their companies are _always_ hiring... to replace the legions of good people who quit in disgust or who actively work at getting laid off because they are a bad fit for a broken company.

I.e., a lot of jobs are available because _no_one_ can do them, or because no ethical or sane person _would_ do them.
 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Ethics of the job search

(OP)
My position was "eliminated" which is the formal statement in the letter they provided me with.

RE: Ethics of the job search

EngineerDave said;
"My position was "eliminated" which is the formal statement in the letter they provided me with."

Why didn't they just say it was 'terminated with prejudice...extreme prejudice'?

HR. Love 'em. Power mad fools.

RE: Ethics of the job search

as far as question 1, if they don't ask don't tell.  If you know you are getting laid off but haven't yet you are still employed and I would treat it as such.  For all you know you could have been laid off and hired back in as contract (happens sometimes).

2. Don't feel guilty.  Unless you are in a start up company, or one that is expanding, you are probably replacing someone.

It can be nerve racking if you find out the previous employee was fired.  I would rather not know and imagine they left on their own ;)

RE: Ethics of the job search

Always mention that you were 1 of 50 to be laid off.
 

RE: Ethics of the job search

When I was terminated, the company said it was cause. They claimed I was asleep in a meeting, because I had my eyes closed.
When asked about why I wasn't working there, I just said I was involuntarily termintaed. Only one HR person asked what the reason was and laughed when I told her. And that compnay did want to bring me in for an interview, but I had already found this job in the mean time.
Just be honest and like talking to the IRS, never offer more information than is asked for!

Good Luck to you.
 

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

RE: Ethics of the job search

I get numerous phone calls from recruiters, dating back from 2 years ago that I posted my resume on the web. They almost always ask: "Are you still working there? [last employer]". They are trying to see how current the resume is, as employers come and go very quickly these days.

So I would say that this could be a common question that any prospective employer would ask, and nothing to be ashamed of.

RE: Ethics of the job search

On your 2.  Generally don't feel guilty about it, do they feel guilty for having a job while you're unemployed?  I'm sure there could be some weird circumstances where perhaps you arguably should feel guilty, but unless you know that for sure don't worry about it.

However, be aware that the person being replaced may have friends there, they most likely won't be your friends, at least initially.  Even though it's managements issue, you'll be guilty by association.

That situation occured at my first job.  I essentially replaced in all but title a very experienced designer who didn't fit in with new management.  His biggest sin was not being keen on learning CAD as I recall.  My immediate supervisor, his long term friend and semi-manager, was not my biggest fan initially.

KENAT,

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RE: Ethics of the job search

ethics goes a long way.  my last company (a manufacturing firm) tried to get me to do stuff like design without a safety factor.  i said no.  so they said i was uncooperative.  personally, i'm happier now.  

"we've built 10 million square feet of this stuff, and no panel has ever come off."

"that's because you've been lucky."

RE: Ethics of the job search

I'd say you were layed off. In this economic climate, they're used to seeing it.
As far as replacing someone... Hey. It's business. If he/she wasn't a good fit, or wasn't doing a great job, then so be it. It's none of your business. Take their place and do the best job you can.

David

RE: Ethics of the job search

I have been downsized three times in the my 40 years as an engineer, each time from a large engineering/manufacturing company. Each time the company provided a very well written letter to all who were downsized explaining that the layoff was necessitated by business conditions and was not a reflection on the former employees performance.

Each time the company provided an array of outplacement services which I used and appreciated.

I did present the letter to potential employers when job searching, and explained, as accurately as I could, the circumstances and my experience with the company. I don't believe that the fact that I was downsized closed any employment doors to me.

I always managed to start my next job the day after I left my previous employment.  

RE: Ethics of the job search

After graduate Kansas State in '06, my first job was for a company that made catalytic converters for large industrial engines.  It was a decent job, but not a lot of engineering work.  I basiclly used a prewritten spreadsheet to size the converters based on the engine used and the targest to be met.  After 6 months I was fired, being told that it wasn't a good fit.  

When I interviewed for my current job at an Aviation Repair Station, I was asked why I left my last job and I said I was fired.  I explained that I didn't really know why I was fired, I got along with people and learned what I needed for my job.  They hired me any way, and I am now in job that I like much better, in a company that provides better training.  

I would always be honest, especially when there is no shame in being laid off during a slow economy.

I also wouldn't worry about replacing someone.  The person who replaced me might find that job a much better fit for them and the person you replaced might find a better job and a better fit.  If a company is looking to replace them already don't feel bad about being the replacement.  The only case where I might feel guilty is if they were not planning to replace someone but fired them just to make space for my amazing talents.  I'm not expecting that any time soon.

-Kirby

RE: Ethics of the job search

Hi EngineerDave

One thing I always think about when I hear stories about companies saying there not satisfied with this guy would you consider being his replacment is:-
If they will do that to a person then what stops them doing it to you at a later date.
In your post you state they have told you he isn't doing the work fast enough but the question really is, why isn't he doing it fast enough, maybe he as got to much to do or maybe he is to slow but I would stay clear of a job offered in this light.

desertfox

RE: Ethics of the job search

(OP)
Desertfox,

I agree with you. I went with my instinct on this as well and avoided the job where they are getting ready to fire someone and bring me in. It would have been alot easier to take that job in the sense that I wouldn't have had to relocate 5 hours away, but I have to go with my gut.

I also accepted the job 5 hours away before i got the official offer from the job in town where I'd be the replacement. That made it easier to turn it down as I didn't want to back out of a job I already accepted.

I have a feeling that job may open up again. I'm not sure that they will have an easy time finding a replacement. I'm in kind of a specialty niche, and the town I live in currently isn't one in which a ton of people are looking to relocate to, so it could make it difficult for them. So I think if I want to I might have a chance at that job again, possibly after they have more realistic expectations.

The guy that will likely be replaced had the unfortunate role of replacing a 15 year plus veteran who they really liked. This guy left for a different opportunity less than a year ago and the guy there now is struggling, hence the potential for his job loss and my offer to be his replacement.

 

RE: Ethics of the job search

Hi EngineerDave

Its funny as I go along through life you learn to avoid situations like this, well I do anyway mainly because you only hear one side of the story. I also avoid jobs where they want you to takeover someone's role because that person is moving to another area or department within the same company, to me it usually means there is a mess waiting for the right fall guy and I am to long in the tooth for that now. I wish you well in your new role.

desertfox

RE: Ethics of the job search

(OP)
Thank you. You are right about that, the more years you get in the better you hone your instincts. I just wish I had left the last situation before the layoff happened. In retrospect, I should have seen it coming.
 

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