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How many times less than sixty is six?
12

How many times less than sixty is six?

How many times less than sixty is six?

(OP)
This was a question on my 9-yr-old's maths homework this week.  It's no wonder the world at large is mathematically illiterate.

I like helping her with her maths, but really didn't want to  with this one.  What is the right answer?  0.9, 10?  How can I explain the stupidity of the question to someone her age?

- Steve

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

9

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

What a strangely worded question.

So far we have three answers of 0.9, 10 and 9. I would go with 0.9 but am not sure it is not 0.1, it is however Sunday morning here and I have a lovely hangover so I am off to walk the dog and let this eat away at my sadly malfunctioning brain.

I wonder how many answers a group of engineers can come up with for a question set for a nine year old?
 

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

It's badly worded alright.

I think the teacher is asking "what is sixty divided by six", hence the answer should be 10.

Many people use "times less than" as the inversion of "times as much"

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

There is no correct answer.  The math teacher needs to take an English course.

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

10
Six is less than Sixty.  Every time.

A.

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

On first reading, I thought as BigH....((60-6)/6)=9, but because of the very poor wording, who knows what the hell they're asking.

Now my brain hurts and I'm 6.22 x 9....

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

(OP)
Worse, they mark their own homework, so there's no point in putting a comment along the lines of "Badly worded question".

I guess 10 is the expected answer.

- Steve

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

For 4th grader's home work, I guess the "less than" was a mistake. The teacher deserve a courtesy call from the concerned parents like you.

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Of course,the teacher couldn't be bothered with checking homework.  Yes, it takes time, but it's a great opportunity to reinforce the teaching.

When I was teaching, my students got clear doses of "red pen".

There's also a good chance that the homework problem came from a textbook.  The editors often don't know the subject matter as well as they should.  I've edited portions of a college textbook, wondering how some of the stuff got left in for the first five editions.

 

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Ron:

Now I know why your writing is above average, what you used to teach, engineering?

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

kslee1000...thank you.  That's very kind of you.

I taught for 5 years to Juniors and Seniors in a BS program for Building Construction Management.  I taught "crossover" courses that were meant to teach the future General Contractors the engineering fundamentals of structures, soils, construction materials, and pavements.  This was in 4 separate courses taught each year, sometimes twice yearly.

It was a great experience.  I enjoyed it and I hope I imparted some common sense and practicality into subjects that normally cause contractors to glaze over.  Often the challenge was teaching just enough for familiarity, without trying to make engineers out of non-engineers (they were not required much in the way of math, physics or chemistry for pre-requisites).

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Ron,

The draftsmen in our office have a 'red pen award' that they give out to the engineer with the greatest fondness for red pen. Alas, they give it out in jest and do not truly appreciate the beauty of it.

I brought up this 'less than' topic a few months ago and there were a significant number of engineers who saw nothing wrong with it. Unfortunately I think this is a case of poor english that has been used so often in advertising that people do not realise the issue.

Dont get me started on 90% fat free e.t.c.

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

My apology to the original poster for sidetracking you topic.

Ron:
It teaching technical topic by plain english) harder than you have stated. I commend your work and effort. Also, your appreciation is well accepted.

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

csd72...to me, the red pen is art!  Some take it as condescending, but it is purely for contrast emphasis...art.

My wife got a bit irritated at me for using it on my son's work when he was in elementary school. I explained that it isn't punishment (as perceived), just a way to set apart the original from the change so there's no ambiguity.

Advertising....so many topics, so little space to complain!

There was a time in my office when the junior engineers and technicians competed to get a letter or report past me with no corrections. So much for the futility of the young!

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

The same teacher would probably see nothing wrong with "How many times more than 6 is 60?"

The teaching profession is not in a good way because the brightest students go into other, better paying lines of work.  Here in Queensland this year, only ONE high school student who achieved the highest scholastic rating decided on teaching as a course of study.

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Less than sixty is 1 off 'sixt', 1 off 'six', 1 off 'si' and 1 off 's'. Perhaps the answer is 1 time?
Cheers,
gr2vessels

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Maybe the actual mathematics behind the question isn't the focus of the problem. I know back in my college days, when helping friends with homework and such, a possible application of this question arises. They were decently smart people, and they knew how to go about performing the problem at hand, but unless the question was proposed in a certain verbiage or a standardized template, they didn't know how to extract raw information from the problem, but the actual inquiry of the question was past their deciphering skills as well. Maybe this problem is just trying to deepen their comprehension and word understanding moreso than dividing 60 by 6. Not everything out there is always written as 60/6=??, and we as engineers know that more than anyone else, seeing how most of our problems don't even have a question; just an answer that we have to reach, if we're lucky enough to have that much direction bestowed upon us.

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

(OP)
Of course you are correct.  The whole sheet was full of questions written in everyday english.  I just took umbrage at this particular question, since I knew what answer they expected, knew that anything other than 10 would be marked wrong and knew that I had no choice other than to agree with my daughter that 10 was the right answer.

(what is one times less than sixty I wonder?)

Related...

We had our sales tax (VAT) cut from 17.5% to 15% a while back.  Prices in the UK are almost always inclusive of sales tax, so many shops have been discounting at the checkout to account for the reduction in sales tax.  Explaining why a 2.5% cut in tax only equates to a 2.1% rebate is fun to explain.

- Steve

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Hahaha. Hopefully you that explination wasn't for your nine year old as well. What kind of school do you have that poor girl inrolled in? Just kidding.

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

(OP)
I had an uncle who was really proud of his mathematical question:

"If a brick weighs ten pounds plus half a brick, what does a brick weigh?"

He seemed really miffed when he first asked me this and I told him the right answer in a couple of seconds.

---

Regarding schools, my daughter goes to the local state primary.  Unknowingly we bought a house in the catchment area of one of the best state schools in this part of the world.  A complete fluke.

- Steve

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

b = 10 + b/2

where b = mass of brick

Ok, I'm stumpedwinky smile

Sompting, unless your daughter is confused, just accept it's 10 and move on.  

Sometimes it's essential to be completely correct in terms of formula, conventions, assumptions, syntax...

Other times it's only necessary to be correct enough to give the person the answer they want/need.

Difficult part is knowing which.

Your daughter may not learn perfect terminology from this question, however she may start to learn how to give the answer someone wants.  Which in exams can be usefull, as well as when dealing with your boss etc.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Ron - when I started writing geotechnical reports, they were always reviewed by a very senior (25 years plus) engineer who bled all over the report.  Okay. Then the report went to the MAJOR (inside Geocon joke) and it was bled all over again.  I was surprised that Toronto had enough red pens bigsmile

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

(OP)
This is something that's missing from University lab reports (in my experience/view).  You submit a lab report, it gets a grade, the end.

- Steve

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Umm - the brick weighs 20 pounds?

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

The way I knew it was:
"If a brick weighs half a pound and half a brick, what does a brick and a half weigh"
Equally simple, but great to ask people in the pub after a couple of pints of falling over water and watch their eyes glaze over....

"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

The answer is 10. I am glad I graduated HS years ago.

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Now we all can understand how we WOULDN'T want to be on "Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader?"  

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Sorry for the long response.
The question asks "How many times less than sixty is six?"
This question has one (and only one) correct answer.  From a language perspective the main subject is sixty and is being linked to the instance counter "times".  This has the effect of setting the value of one "time" as sixty.  Thus the answer is 0.9 (as somptingGuy originally pointed out).
The question INTENDED to ask "Six is how many times less than sixty"
In which the main subject is six, hence "time"=6 and the answer is 10.  (I know I am correct, but is there an English major that can set me straight or explain it better?)
This is a GREAT question:
1.    It teaches the student the confusion that results from poor use of the English language.
2.    It teaches the student how to "read between the lines" to answer the question that is intended to be asked rather than the one that is asked (a fact that they will learn with their first boss, if they are anything like me).
3.    It teaches the parent not to trust what is being passed off as an education these days and always pay attention to their children so they actually get a "proper" education.
4.    And it teaches the teacher that they are not infallible and to evaluate all answers based on merit and correctness and not to mark it wrong because "that's what it says in the key".
Or maybe, for the 90% of students out there who don't "get it" (or have dads like SomptingGuy to supplement their education) it reinforces bad English skills, teaches them to pump out the basic answer without critically thinking about the question, and if they do figure it out (most likely) teaches them that their teacher has a closed mind, won't accept their correct answer, and disrespects their opinions because they are only a kid.  Situations like this make me want to tear out my hair at the school system.

I agree with the red Pen comment.  The harder the red pen is on you the better you become.
-Keith
 

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

(OP)
Long and long awaited.  Well put!

- Steve

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

I would still suggest that .9 is not an answer either. It's based on further grammically assumptions that are also not correct.  "Times less than" is a meaningless statement.  It is derived from "times more than", which is grammically confusing.  Does one mean xy or xy+x?  Both choices have their proponents.  It all depends on how you read it.  Is that "6 times MORE than" (xy+x) where "more" means you have an amount and you are now adding to it -or- "6 TIMES more than" (xy) where "more" simple means the amount is greater by y number of times.  These statements make no sense in the reverse with division "times less than".

Anyway, I do agree with the statements about the state of our education system.  Honestly, though, it's always been this bad.

Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

i wonder if this is meant to be a "new math" type of question ... it doesn't matter what your answer is, only how well you can justify it ?

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

(OP)
So how many times less than 60 is 6 ... in base 8?

- Steve

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Six is 0.9 times less than sixty.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Six is 10 times less than 60.

Makes sense to me.

Although the question was worded VERY poorly, I'm still going with 10 as my answer.

V

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

vc66, not picking on you, but:

60 - 10 * 6 = 0 "Incorrect" answer
60 - 0.9 * 6 = 6 "Correct" answer, but:

"Six is 0.9 times less than sixty." Well, 0.9 times WHAT?

Parse this question any way you want it is never going to make sense.

"six is zero point nine times 60" makes sense.
"six is zero point nine times six less than 60" makes sense.

If you can't unambigousously restate the word question in a numerical equation, it MAKES NO SENSE.

Regards,

Mike

P.S. It is interesting how much verbiage has been expended by engineers trying to explain this question. If it were media or pols (or teachers) they would swallow it whole and be done:)





RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Sorry, meant to say "APPARENTLY teachers"

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

There is no explanation.
The answer is WTF........smile. End of story.

Fe

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

SnTMan-

Not picking on me at all.

I take "6 is 10 times less than 60", although incorrect, to mean, "6=60/10"

I understand that times less than is incorrect in itself, but based on the intended meaning, I'd say the answer is 10.

V

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

vc66, understood, pick any number you like:)

After posting, it occurred to me that maybe the correct answer was not intended to be a SINGLE NUMBER, but an EXPRESSION, any expression that evaluated to....

Nah, I still can't make sense of it.

Regards,

Mike

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Its amazing how much garble a simple question worded wrongly can create.
This is whats wrong with our society nowadays........

peace

Fe

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

FeX32, only if you bother to think about it....

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

haha, this is so silly.. it reminds me of times in primary school or even high school where the absurdity of the question alone should mean that no one should get it wrong.  Ten seems to be the answer here if there ever is one, but, ten times six is EQUAL to sixty...when i hear LESS THAN sixty the first thing i think about is an answer that is actually LESS THAN sixty. i'm confused.  why not just ask "what is 60/6??"

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

IMO that is an impossible question to answer Kenat. First of all, paperclips come in many different sizes, which one do you use and why? Secondly, to where do you measure the height of a giraffe? To the tips of its horns or to its shoulder like a horse is measured?

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

(OP)
It's like measuring the inside-leg.  The technique differs between boys and girls.

- Steve

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

GB, there are many ridiculous aspects of the question.  I can't remember if he had a picture showing a giraffe and a paperclip or what but it was stupid.  He also had a question something like, how many dogs does a polar bear weigh or something.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

Back to the original post.  It asked AS AN Engineer.  Guys, if you have this in your report, analysis, recommendations, letters, etc, after several reviews and you still feel the weirdness in your wording, you probably will reword it, explain it but not try to give a number and stick to explain your number.  After all, an engineer should and must make an unclear statement as clear as possible, but not lead the reader to a pit, right?

RE: How many times less than sixty is six?

sleeping2

Fe

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