Wind & pumped hydro II
Wind & pumped hydro II
(OP)
A large wind farm is going in ~1 mile from an incised river valley with 180 to 200 feet of fall from the surrounding land to the riverbed. Does this represent a viable pumped energy system?
When was the last time you drove down the highway without seeing a commercial truck hauling goods?
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RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
Who has the check-sheet for feasibility or rules of thumb?
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
In most cases politics also creates the situation where you are almsot always better selling your wind power to the grid (premiums on wind power gnereated power). If you get a premium on the wind power you sell to the grid why would you want to use it yourself? Sell the power from the wind farm to the grid if possible, and use that money to offset the cost of running the pumps.
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
Alan
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"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
A separate hydro turbine would then use the pumped water to generate power as needed.
Yes this system needs two hydraulic machines, rather than a combined pump/turbine, but the pump may be optimized for pumping and the turbine may be optimized for generation.
Intriguing. I know a similar but more challenging site on an island now supplied by diesel power. I have been suggesting a preliminary feasibility surrey but I can't get anyone in authority interested.
Bill
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"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
Let's say you're at full pond, the wind's blowing, and energy rates are at peak. You would want to be using both the hydro and the wind turbines, but you wouldn't want to be pumping water.
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
The real beauty of a combined wind/pumped storage plant is that it can be dispatched, while wind alone is too unpredictable for long term dispatching. Wind won't really be taken seriously in large quantities until/unless it can be reliably firmed up. Batteries just aren't there, much of the country doesn't have enough hydro, and combustion plants don't like the sudden load swings associated with firming wind. Pumped storage hydro is the best available means of firming wind power.
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
Don't know enough to factor efficiencies into theoretical calculations so extrapolated from the Salilna Pumped Storage Project in Oklahoma. 100 MW for 6 to 12 hours seems feasible which is the proposed production capacity of the wind farm.
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
While this may be specific, it can be generaly be applied to several hydroelectric instalations.
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
That being said, if you have a pumped storage set up and you have a wind gereration set up all you really need to do is make sure each system is as efficient as possible. Wether or not they are directly connected doesn't make that much of a difference. I would actually anticipate problems for the pumps if the only power supply they had was from wind power.
Yes wind potential is much higher in the night than in the day, and that is also when you would use pumped storage. Whether or not you are getting less money per kilowatt by selling to the grid at night or you are paying less for power to run your pumps at night all works out in the wash.
david: Have you heard of wind power/hydrogen cogen set ups? I think they have a lot of potential towards 'firming' up wind power.
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
There is a second looming need for hydrogen – the upgrading of biooil created by the fast pyrolysis of agricultural biomass to fungible fuels. DOE says that upgraded biooil could meet 60% of the US transportation fuel needs..
Any suggestions on engineering companies that could undertake a statewide evaluation of the feasibility/usefulness of pumped hydro?
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
The fact wind power is more expencive and ocures during off peak, should be a sign that it is not a very good idea.
And I admit there are some special cases, like remote sites with batteries, and backup power.
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
cranky108: Your points go against your argument. The fact wind power is most effective during off peak hours is exactly why its a good idea to use it to power an electrolyzer for H2 production. Atleast that way you don't need to buy/store steel balls and acid... Not to mention find some place to dump the FeCl.
I studied a pilot project on this wind/hydrogen co-gen that was happening in Newfoundland. For those of you that don't know Newfoundland is an island (geogrpahically and electrically). There are a lot of small communities that run off diesel gen sets. The wind/hydrogen cogen site is intended to drastically cut back on the amount of diesel needed (wind is sounding cheaper now right?). During high demand periods when there is wind available, the wind turbine just supplies the load. When there is wind but low demand, the wind turbine supplies the electrolyzer. When there is high demand and no wind, you burn the hydrogen to create power.
Personally, I think every wind farm should have something like this.
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
The important formula is; power [kW] = flow[m3/sec]*head[m]*9
Example; 100MW = 55.5m/sec. * 200M * 9
It is as simple as that.
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
The combination of wind power and pumped-storage, however, can be favourably realized on an island. There are some projects under review in Greece.
Regards
Wolf
WWW.HYDROPOWER-CONSULT.COM
RE: Wind & pumped hydro II
If I was a consultant in this area, I'd create a simple section on a web site that summarizes the issues and use it to drive business development and minimize – questions. I never found such and now know that my original question could be boiled down to a few questions to which a few rules of thumb are applied.