RAP and Responsibility
RAP and Responsibility
(OP)
There is a discussion between my supervisor and I concerning rammed aggregate piers and who has the ultimate responsibility. Ultimately it comes down to the contract agreements etc, but how are many of the agreements/contracts written in your experience to establish who is responsible for the final product; the designer/contractor or independant testing laboratory who is making the observations during installation.
There was a project in which we declined to bid on the testing. The construction documents basicly stated the testing laboratory was to establish that each of the installed rammed aggregate piers would meet the designed strength. To my knowledge the firm I work for has never performed any observations of their installation, but we see many places where they would be a good intermediary between shallow spread footings and piling. My supervisor has some reservations about making recommendations for them due to the fact (as he stated) that many contracts are written by the owner/architect to hold the testing firm responsible the final product.
I do not disagree with him if contracts are normally written that way. I have difficulty in believing that contracts are typically written in such a manner so as to place responsibility on the observer who did not design nor construct the rammed aggregate pier. It seems the me the independant lab is there to observe the actual installation and to determine whether they were installed according the design specs, not to say that they meet the design strength.
I am looking for comments on what your experience has been and who ultimately has responsibility for the final product, and whether or not I am correct in my assertions.
There was a project in which we declined to bid on the testing. The construction documents basicly stated the testing laboratory was to establish that each of the installed rammed aggregate piers would meet the designed strength. To my knowledge the firm I work for has never performed any observations of their installation, but we see many places where they would be a good intermediary between shallow spread footings and piling. My supervisor has some reservations about making recommendations for them due to the fact (as he stated) that many contracts are written by the owner/architect to hold the testing firm responsible the final product.
I do not disagree with him if contracts are normally written that way. I have difficulty in believing that contracts are typically written in such a manner so as to place responsibility on the observer who did not design nor construct the rammed aggregate pier. It seems the me the independant lab is there to observe the actual installation and to determine whether they were installed according the design specs, not to say that they meet the design strength.
I am looking for comments on what your experience has been and who ultimately has responsibility for the final product, and whether or not I am correct in my assertions.





RE: RAP and Responsibility
No matter what, with any foundation, you all share risk. The lawyers will fight out how much is yours when something goes wrong.
RE: RAP and Responsibility
Contracts generally do not place that responsibility on an observer. To do so is inconsistent with an appropriate contract responsibility chain. An "independent" lab is intended to be just that...independent of the process, so that they have no conflict with their decision process and the outcome. If your payment is contingent upon someone else achieving a specific result, you have a bad contract. Further, at one time, contingent fee contracts were considered unethical in engineering; however, the US Supreme Court struck that from our code of ethics in the late 1970's.
RE: RAP and Responsibility
True. I am trying to establish from the wider audience how much risk might actually be ours with a contract properly written as Ron suggested above.
Thanks for the responses.
RE: RAP and Responsibility
Someone has to do QC and QA . . . just be careful that you limit your liability - you report, they decide (ooooh, Fox News, eh?)
RE: RAP and Responsibility
LOL
RE: RAP and Responsibility
RE: RAP and Responsibility
make sure your contract clearly states what you are doing on the project (and maybe even include specific that you are not responsible for). if you see language that says otherwise, bring it to everyone's attention and plainly state that it is incorrect (and document all the conversations). also, keep in mind that special inspections are finally becoming more and more a part of everyday construction which means that "word of mouth" agreements may not be enough when the contract documents state something otherwise. document document document and be aggressive to clarify contradictions and incorrect contract language. that's my thoughts for what it's worth.
RE: RAP and Responsibility
I have never seen a specification that requires the testing agency to certify that the RAPs will perform as intended. Just as an inspector can certify that the appropriate reinforcement was placed in a concrete beam, and that the concrete met the strength requirements and was placed in accordance with the specs, the inspector did NOT design the beam, and cannot certify that it will perform as intended.
In real life, however, if something DOES happen, everyone involved will be included in lawsuits, including geotechnical engineer, structural engineer, inspection agency, general contractor, and specialty RAP subcontractor. In those cases, everyone loses, except the attorneys.
RE: RAP and Responsibility
f-d
¡papá gordo ain't no madre flaca!
RE: RAP and Responsibility
We just finished up a Geopier installation job. As others said, our involvement was only to observe and report what we saw. Nothing else.
Again, thank you for the responses.
RE: RAP and Responsibility
It's possible that the construction documents were written based on a misunderstanding of who was to take responsibility.
It sounds like your recent experience was more typical.
If you have these issues in the future you could suggest that your supervisor discuss the contract with the owner and agreed upon liability. If you are still having problems, you could try discussing it with the RAP designer, whom might be be able to help you out.
RE: RAP and Responsibility