Your Opinions on ASCE
Your Opinions on ASCE
(OP)
To the civil engineers out there, how well do you feel ASCE represents the profession? What do they do well, and what not?
What do you wish they could do better?
What do you wish they could do better?





RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I don't mean this as an offense, more as a clarification. Your second statement is a classic example of a logical fallacy. The fact that ASCE benefits from advocating for increased spending on infrastructure has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the spending should occur.
I think it should. We are a bit odd in this country (US) with many issues. We demand first world infrastructure but are appalled at the idea of paying for it. It is VERY expensive to build and properly maintain highways and bridges, yet every year there is an outcry because property taxes and gasoline taxes and whatever taxes are way too high.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I don't think that is odd. It is the same scenario in every country as far as I know.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
All I said in the second sentence is that it is arguable whether the ROLE of ASCE should include a focus on lobbying for gov't spending which will in fact increase business for ASCE's membership....or should their role be purely technical and PR in terms of marketing the profession.
There is no logical issue within my sentence...just a question.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
Do elucidate. In what way is it a "logical fallacy"? How is it a "classic example"?
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I really wish I would not get 2-3 Seminar fliers everyday. Just for fun I kept count last year, I stopped when the pile hit 200. No wonder they have to charge $1300 per seminar, 95% of that fee goes to the mailings.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
That said, if the ASCE does not lobby for infrastructure then who will?
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I had originally read it as "ASCE advocates for increased infrastructure spending because it is in their best interest to do so, as they will increase their membership". That's not really what you said. You were simply asking whether it should be the role of ASCE to do so. So I was incorrect.
So what logical fallacy I had originally assumed is irrelevant, as I misunderstood the statement (in my defense, I had been drinking ;) ).
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
Drinking does tend to create logical fallacies where normally none exist. But they always seem to be gone when you wake up in the morning.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
Regarding ASCE, the organization is built on the contributions of individual member engineers, but it seems that they cater more to corporate interests than to its paying membership.
It's not that they don't do some really good things, but when was the last time anyone heard ASCE adovcating for increased compensation for its members? Instead they ask members to go out and recruit high schoolers (and even grade school children now) to ensure that there is an adequate "supply" of engineers for future endevours. If I recall macroeconomics correctly, increasing supply holds the cost of the product (in our case us engineers) to lower levels. How is this seen as serving the membership?
Oh and when was the last time ASCE gave anything back to the membership for free. Everything costs money and not just a little. ASCE has one of the highest costs for obtaining professional development hours in the industry from courses on the national level. (Thank goodness for section meetings) Even the salary survey, which ASCE conducts each year asks for survey contributions from its membership, but once compiled, the survey report must be purchased by the very membership that contributes to the survey. Only the labor classification for which the member engineer contribues survey information is free of charge.
Now take AISC on the other hand. They offer loads of practical useable technical information, oodles of software, and low cost seminars to their membership. Oddly enough, this organization is based on the contributions of member companies, but the organization caters mainly to its individual membership.
Don't get me wrong, I've been an ASCE member since 1986 and have proudly served my section for many years on technical committees, organizing seminars, serving on the Board of Directors and even as section president. I have made some great friends in the process, but I am simply burned out giving while the organization continues to take.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
Thanks for the kudos. I wish it wasn't so.
Regarding posting to ASCE's site, unfortunately it doesn't seem to do much good to voice pleas to the deaf. I brought up these concerns as section president years ago and brought the compensation concern of our membership directly to the national president at the national convention. He actually confirmed that ASCE's high school recruiting drive was in fact an effort to increase supply and influence engineer salaries. (It was an eye opening experience) He did not offer to take this issue up as a legitimate concern at the national level, which spoke volumes about the organization's intention to represent the interest of corporations over the member engineer.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I want to make sure I understand you correctly. ASCE is purposely trying to put downward pressure on Civil Engineers' salaries?
One of the reasons why I asked this question was because a very highly regarded professor made a comment that a goal of ASCE's was to keep engineers salaries low.
If it really is true, WOW, this profession is a lot more broken than I thought.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
You understand correctly. I never said anything about my conversation with that particular ASCE national president, because at the time there was so much momentum for advancing the HS recruitment program and I just started the term as president of my section, so there were certain expecations for me to tow the line. I now regret being afraid to speak up for fear of no believing me or worse making value judgements regarding my own intentions and negatively affecting professional relationships and my own career.
Now that I am older, I have recently written blogs about how active recruiting in high schools as promoted by ASCE (and now for elementary school children) as noble it may seem, might have a negative effect on professional salaries and result in the continued treatment of engineers as commodities.
Please bear in mind that I think ASCE still has done lots of good for its membership in other ways, albeit costly. There are many good people working tirelessly on technical committees to advance knowledge throughout the profession for example, which is a testament to the dedication of ASCE's individual membership to improve the organization.
I simply beleive that ASCE's policy has lost its way as a vehicle to improve the living standards of the individual engineer that contributes to and sustains the organization.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
Good posts. You touch on a few of the things that I wanted to say in my last post but didnt have the time to, these are also some of the reasons why I am no longer a member.
I assure you that the ASCE is not the only civil engineering organisation with these types of issues. One of my previous employers in Australia lost a 100K job to a big firm only to find out that that firm had come in at 30k and shipped the whole design process overseas to asia. When he complained about the whole situation at the next commitee meeting it fell on deaf ears - so he left. The problem is that many of the fellows running these organisations are directors of companies and make their money off the backs of junior engineers, they also forget what it is like to be a graduate.
That said, a major reason why I stopped being a member was the crazy prices you still had to pay for any king of conference, not much under $600. In Australia and in the Uk there are IEAust and IStructE conferences in the evenings for free or sometimes $10 if a caterer is used.
I agree that AISC is miles ahead virtually anyone in the US as far as cost effective CPD.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
Is it some kind of elitist conspiracy? Do the leaders of ASCE hold positions in their respective companies that would allow them to greatly benefit from this type of plan.
I have always felt that ASCE had very little to offer in terms of benefits for general membership. Everything they have costs extra, unlike AISC and even now ACI (who offers 3 free papers a year and access to code references).
They also want to increase recruiting and yet at the same time increase the amount of education required for licensure. It seems counter productive. How do you convince someone to go to school longer to make less money?
I don't even know what I am supposed to think, the world's gone crazy.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I'd rather place my money with an organization like NCSEA and it's constituent local organizations. their professional development prices are reasonable, and their publications are top rate.
I cancelled my ASCE membership 5 years ago and still get at least two seminar mailers a week.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
Let's change the discourse a little and talk about the ASCE BODY of KNOWLEDGE (BoK).
The Body of Knowledge is a document purposing a Master's degree as a requirement for P.E. licensing. (Yes, they have tweaked it a little to only require the equivalent hours for a master degree.) The document is a wordy, never-ending exposition of someone's arrogance.
The first level of arrogance is seen when you realize that a small clique of Civil Engineers assume the representation for all engineers, both present and future licensees. (Simply ask the question, how many mechanical, electrical, or general engineers are aware of ASCE's effort called 'BoK'?)
This clique is self appointed, is not elected, and the last time I looked, they had a majority of educators and one member was a new graduate, not yet a P.E.
The group claims that the BS degree does not offer enough engineering hours, that other subjects are crowding out the degree program. Keep in mind that these are educators talking. So I asked one of them why they are letting the curriculum become diluted? The answer I received was that they did not have control????
Educators seeking more education requirements... looks like a conflict of interest.
A sitting president on the NCEES board was a proponent for the ASCE-BOK. I challenged him to show a cost-benefit for the proposal. He talked about other things.
If the ASCE-BOK had been in effect at the start of my carrier, I would not have my P.E., nor my S.E., nor my Masters degree. Nor could I claim a satisfying career as an engineer, nor would I be able to cancel my life insurance as I near retirement age.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I feel your pain and frustration. Having scanned through the big honkin 191 page BOK document, I came away with a differing account of committee personnel however than had been described. The current ASCE-BOK committee appears to have 9 academics and 6 in private practice. (See below) They seem a bit slanted toward the academic side as you said, but not overly so.
I would agree that there definitely is the appearance of a conflict of interest for academics to advocate an MSCE (or BSCE+30) as the base requirement for licensure, but do feel that in doing so will have the effect of limiting new entries into the profession. Consequently, this should have a buoyant effect on engineer salaries over time by reducing the supply...a positive thing for the profession to be sure. Once salaries are at an equitable level for engineers contributions to society, then more interest in the profession will result through market forces.
Does that force us all to raise our own bar and expend more money to keep up? Sure it does. Am I happy about it? Well, no. Does it improve the engineering profession and engineer's salaries? It seems so.
On the whole, it doesn't seem to be a bad thing.
Current ASCE BOK Committee
Richard O. ANDERSON, P.E., Hon. M.ASCE,
Somat Engineering,
Detroit, MI, (Chairperson)
Kenneth J. FRIDLEY, Ph.D., M.ASCE,
Department of Civil and Environmental
Engineering, University of Alabama,
Tuscaloosa, AL, (Vice Chair)
Stuart G. WALESH, Ph.D., P.E.,
Hon.M.ASCE, Consultant, Englewood, FL, (Editor)
Anirban DE, Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE,
Department of Civil Engineering, Manhattan
College, Riverdale, NY
Decker B. HAINS, Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE,
U.S. Military Academy, West Point, NY,
Ronald S. HARICHANDRAN, Ph.D.,
P.E., F.ASCE, Department of Civil and
Environmental Engineering, Michigan
State University, East Lansing, MI,
Peter W. HOADLEY, Ph.D., P.E.,
A.M.ASCE, Department of Civil Engineering,
Virginia Military Institute,
Lexington, VA,
Manoj K. JHA, Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE,
Department of Civil Engineering, Morgan
State University, Baltimore, MD,
David A. LANGE, Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE,
Department of Civil and Environmental
Engineering, University of Illinois at
Urbana-Champaign, IL,
Melanie L. LAWRENCE, A.M.ASCE,
Leonard Rice Engineers, Inc., Denver, CO
Timothy F. LENGYEL, P.E., M.ASCE,
Winzler & Kelly Consulting Engineers,
San Francisco, CA,
Daniel R. LYNCH, Ph.D., M.ASCE,
Thayer School of Engineering, Dartmouth
College, Hanover, NH,
Robert E. MACKEY, P.E., M.ASCE, S2L Inc.,
Maitland, FL
John M. MASON, Ph.D., P.E., M.ASCE,
College of Engineering, Pennsylvania
State University, University Park, PA,
Jeffrey S. RUSSELL, Ph.D., P.E., F.ASCE,
Department of Civil and Environmental
Engineering, University of
Wisconsin-Madison, WI, (CAP3 Chair)
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
The points raised are valid, but do not recognize some realities.
When engineer fees get high, non-engineers figure out how to do things on their own. That is the "engineer" in all of us.
Anybody can put up a stud wall to hold a roof UP. If you don't believe me, just ask the carpenter / homeowner who nails the last shingle on.
They never think about the day when the straight wind comes through at 100 mph. And the city inspector doesn't think about it either. After all, it never happened before. Besides, the city officials would rather pay for the new assembly hall rather than pay for the humdrum, day-to-day engineer / inspector who knows about lateral loads and uplift.
You can't create value where society doesn't value it. And that is exactly what the ASCE-BoK is trying to do.
By the way, thanks for publishing all of the committee member's names. Everyone should take note that these people have not been elected, but are making decisions that affect people outside of civil engineering.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
As an engineer who's worked since the 70's, do you agree that codes have become more complex or not?
BOK is in response to the increasing complexity in our work due to good ol Lawyers of America. Everything has to be proven on paper.
I dont know how many more design courses that can be jammed into an undergrad degree, but I probably would have cracked if I didn't have a gen ed or two per semester.
I think efforts would be better spent taking active roles in local SEI to get government code enforcement in line rather than fighting BOK.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I believe you are partially right about our society values. Let's ignore industrical applications, and talk about homes, it is where we live.
Friends and family frequently ask me about their homes or new houses which they are getting ready to build. Generally, they want a sturdy structure, but they don't know how to get it. Why? Because the contractors are not willing to do it.
Many house contractors patronize engineering, but don't want to pay for it. Then when a home-owner asks, they charge two legs and an arm for something that is required by code. But, keep in mind a rule of thumb that says the structure is only 10% of the project cost.
Codes. Yes, they have become more complex, and without a cost to benefit justification. Yes, the complexity is justified when you build a hundred of something, but not for one or two of the other. Material is cheap, it is generally only 1/3 the cost with labor the other 2/3. So why would we want to strain at calculating an ounce of steel? I would imagine that some of the professor-types would struggle to answer this.
ASCE-BoK. So because lawyers are doing it, it justifies engineers doing the same? Give me a break, or better yet, give me some common sense. But take note, I have done all of my work with the view that it is ready to present in a court.
Your degree. Who told you an engineering education was anything less than rigorous?
SEI and enforcement. Let's just drop the ASCE-BoK. Then we can devote time to getting our governing bodies, politicians, etc. to enforce the laws, rules, regulations, that we already have on the books.
Now, here is the follow-on question. Do you ever hear any of this from ASCE?
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
That's not why I pasted the BoK committee names, but an interesting side note is that although the Board of Directors is officially "elected" to their positions by the membership, how many times are their more than one choice for each BoD office? My point is even though the BoK committee is not elected, would it really make a difference to the final make-up of individuals willing to donate their time to this effort?
This collective of individuals (BoK committee) has chosen to take up very broad issues on behalf of the profession's future. The committee probably started off with noble intent, though once momentum had been gained toward an outcome, lots of (possible self serving) ideas foreign to the original intent have the tendency to jump on board and it then becomes very very hard to de-rail that train.
There was a comment period on the draft BoK document (I missed it), but the higher truth is that comments seldom reframe a discussion. The most comments hope to do is to influence currently accepted thinking on individual narrowly focused provisions and placates memberhip into thinking that the document has evolve through a (quasi-) democratic process.
My comments appear to be a love-hate relationship with ASCE...right? I suppose if I didn't care about ASCE, I wouldn't bother offering an opinion toward its betterment. (I'm still a member after 24 years after all) I do think the organization has contributed a lot of valuable things and like I said previously, there are a lot of selfless people donating time to improving the profession. I also understand the frustation of individuals such as manym, but I recognize that if the BoK committee wasn't formed to provide a path for the future of the profession, then it probably would have been imposed upon our profession eventually by politicians or those of their ilk, similar to what happened when ASCE stuck its head in the sand when the engineering licensing issue reared its head years ago. Perhaps the lesser evil is to have the profession police itself, than have it done by those with little to no understanding of engineering issues.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I think a discussion regarding why and how our profession has become more complex can be a thread in its own. and further, why advanced degrees are required to deal with this complexity another.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
For this thread, perhaps a little historical review would help us all understand ASCE -- what it does and does not do today -- in representing the profession.
LobstaEata, - we need your lead.
You refer to a history by stating:
... similar to what happened when ASCE stuck its head in the sand when the engineering licensing issue reared its head years ago.
What licensing issue? And what did ASCE not do?
I am not familiar or remembering what you refer to.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
During the years contributing to my Section's Board of Directors, we vigorously debated whether ASCE should attempt to undermine State certification of quasi-specialties such as wetland science and soil science, which were traditionally provided under a professional engineer's seal up to that point. We recently lost the battle for septic designer specialty certification. One of our senior officers recounted from stories of many years ago how ASCE national chose not to engage in what was then a vigorous public discussion of whether engineers should be licensed to ensure a minimum level of qualifications. Keep in mind that engineers "mid to late 1800's" were more commonly trained through mentoring as opposed to formal academic education. It was noted by this elder officer, that the result of ASCE's choice not to become engaged in the discussion and step forward to offer uniform licensing of professional engineers was that it lost control of licensing to the requirements of individual states, which is where we are today. (again this was taken from stories recounted by this senior officer, so I couldn't possibly vouch for its reliability, so take from it what you may)
It is my humble opinion that the BoK document, as imperfect as it might be, engages the question of minimum academic and experience requirements of the professional engineer for the 21st century. This seems to more fully address the more robust requirements needed for engineering specialties and prepares engineers for ever more rigorous code requirements and increasingly complex analytical knowledge. One opinion. Many more welcome.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
For ASCE to promote national registration would be a big thing. What California requires from engineers is different from that required in Kansas. For example, Kansas doesn't have Zone 4 seismic forces, but it certainly has expansive clays.
The phrase "lost control" is curious. Why would ASCE want to "control" any professional engineer?
The beauty of our mentoring system is that it has the ability to cull out the less desirable.
Over my career, I have reviewed a lot of work by engineers and early on realized that I was teaching the practical application of structural engineering. Just yesterday, I reviewed the work of an "experienced" engineer, and I have to wonder where he has worked, how he got his master's degree, and how he passed his P.E.
Now we are back to the ASCE BoK. From that 191 page document, how would ASCE control the quality of engineers? Do people think that ASCE can do something nationally that cannot be done locally, or individually?
I believe this sort of mentality is called arrogance.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
As a seasoned structural engineer who's obviously thought a lot about these subjects, what do you think the older SE's need to do? What should the younger engineers be striving for? Abandon ASCE and start a new organization? Somehow make change?
I'm asking because I'm in a position to make changes at a very large ASCE student chapter. It's great that students use the organization to build social skills and volunteer around the community. But with these fairly large professional issues looming, I think they're completely missing the purpose.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
Didn't say control any professional engineer. Did say lost control of licensing. My opinion is that it would have been far better to have the engineering community (in this case ASCE as better understanding engineering concerns) establish the licensing rules than non-engineers, such as lawyers, politicians and government officials who sometimes have competing agendas and do not necessarily have the best interests of our profession in mind.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I'll probably bail on them next year and find life insurance somewhere else.
-Jack
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
You ask what can be done to correct some of the problems we see and in light of the younger engineers.
Let's start with what we do. We are servants. We provide counsel to the people who hold the capital that makes projects happen.
Yes, our counsel includes calculations, plans, and specifications. But it is still counsel, and our service is subject to acceptance or rejectance.
In most cases, law makes our stamped approval a requirement. But the law can be circumvented, which I know happens.
I once served on a committee to review a very large and complicated project. It was effectively an ad hoc jury to settle a political argument and this avoided years in a court room drama with lawyers sucking the money away. The politicians settled the political issues, also money issues, even before we concluded!
Engineers build the pie, lawyers cut it up.
ASCE and other organizations create a lot of laws, rules, regulations, etc. In recent years these laws are created by some bright wan-na-be who needs something to justify his existence or he wants to build a monument to himself. So, he writes a law, builds a more complicated equation, and then gets a committee of other like minded persons to sanction it. And the rest of us peons are considered know-nothings worthy to be controlled.
Here is the rub. Either we are knowledgeable professionals, or we are not. Either we have learned our lessons, developed experience and common sense, or we have not.
And if we screw up a project but follow all the rules, none of these wan-na-bees are going to stand in the courtroom with us.
So what should a young engineer do?
He should grab all of the experience he can. And, be cautious about stepping into projects where he is lacking in qualifications. And more than anything else, stop confusing managment with engineering.
What about the existing organizations?
As long as these organizations promote inexperience, minorities, and other social programs, they will continue to get everything but meritorious engineering. Lacking merit, these organizations will continue to have engineering problems.
Don't believe me? Then I will take you out and show you where the next generation lives and the shoddy structures being built. Same for the organizations that are being built.
The saving grace is that most structures never see their design loads. Same for the organizations being built. Same for the young careers being built. But, it only takes one event to wipe it all away.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
Doctors join AMA when they get their certification.
Civil Engineers join ASCE.
Tell me the problem here.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
Both times when I quit, the one thing that struck me: The person on the phone couldn't care less
I got rid of their life insurance about 7 or 8 years ago; I got another policy at a much lower cost.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
You're singing to the choir. I see a lot of engineers complaining, ranting and raving, but I never see any action to correct the problem aside from an isolated person here or there. Maybe the passive nature of the structural engineer is the root problem of why such a backwards organization has come to govern....
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
If ASCE is the bad guy (or gal)what organization do we recommend to our new graduates in Civil Engineering?
And we do have a responsibilty to advise the EIT.
Please tell me about one organization that has a lobby in congress to protect civil/structural engineers.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
I think you should take a look at NSPE (National Society of Professional Engineers) and also each of the state chapters of NSPE. This organization has done a lot to promote the engineering profession, and more importantly, be an advocate of professional engineers (rather than the corporation who employs the engineers only).
In the last decade or so, NSPE, at the National level, as well as the state chapters, have had very good success on several issues at the legistlative level.
One example is the importance licensure and fighting all the ways that everyone is trying to call anyone and their brother an engineer. And NSPE has recently successfully defeated attempts, in certain locations, for architects to be the one and only go-to person for all projects. Do architects know which walls should be knocked out when renovating a building?
As someone mentioned before, we all have that inner "engineer" in us, but we'd like for that inner engineer to be licensed if they are going to offer services to the public. (Please don't get me started on how we require every driver on the road to be licensed, every doctor to be licensed, and every hair stylist to be licensed, but somehow it's ok for an engineer not to be licensed). Opps, I just started...
I've always had a feeling that NSPE (or any other engineering organization) would rather stay away from politics, but the reality is: you've got to promote and protect your profession at the legislative level if you want to survive. This means lobbying in Washington DC, and at the state capitol buildings. NSPE has recognized this and has been very active on this front.
RE: Your Opinions on ASCE
This is what I wanted to hear.
Thank you for this insight into our profession.
Sam