Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Use of a company's WPS by contractor
(OP)
Hi guys,
I work for company 'A', and I have seleted our own (company 'A') WPS for our project. Due to time constraints we had to subcontract the production welding to a contractor.
Is it acceptable (per AMSE &/or AWS) to hire a contractor, qualify their welder to company 'A' WPS & use company A WPS for the production weld.
Thanks for your time & help.
Regards
PK
I work for company 'A', and I have seleted our own (company 'A') WPS for our project. Due to time constraints we had to subcontract the production welding to a contractor.
Is it acceptable (per AMSE &/or AWS) to hire a contractor, qualify their welder to company 'A' WPS & use company A WPS for the production weld.
Thanks for your time & help.
Regards
PK





RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Either code says that Manufacturer or Contractor is responsible for qualifying their own WPSs.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Will a new PQR by the contractor suffice the requirement?
Thrid party is also involved for witnessing the production welds & the NDEs
Both Company A & the contractor are in compliance with ISO 9001:2000.
I am not a welding engineer or a metallurgist, just trying to clear up my mind with the issues we have before passing on my views.
Thanks for all your help & time.
Best regards,
PK
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
The contractor is responsible to qualify his own procedures and operators.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Yes, a new PQR will suffice. For starters, I would give them your WPS as guidance to qualify their own, and I would have someone from your company supervise or witness the qualification.
The additional production welding witnessed by 3rd party and ISO is also good to have.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
A WPS may be written for the company or by the company...doesn't matter. Porting a WPS to another company is no different. The key is qualifying the procedure and the welders to it.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
'Is it acceptable (per AMSE &/or AWS) to hire a contractor, qualify their welder to company 'A' WPS & use company A WPS for the production weld.
Answer - No
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
As weldtek has pointed out QW 103 clearly states the requirements of ASME IX.
"Each manufacturer or contractor is responsible for the welding done by his organization and shall conduct the tests required in this Section to qualify the welding procedures he uses in the construction of the weldments built under this code,......"
However, it depends on which construction code you are working to as well.
Both ASME B31.3 (QW 328.2.2) and B31.1 (127.5.3)allow the use of one companies WPS by others if certain requirements are met.
Raikwar,
In your case probably the best idea would be to follow as close as possible the variables of Company A's WPS then submit one of the contractors welder qualification test coupons for mechanical testing and have them then write up their own PQR/WPS,
Hope that helps,
Regards,
BB
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Let's suppose Company A, instead of hiring Company B as a sub, hires the welder who works for Company B and qualifies him to Company A's procedure. This is clearly allowable since any company can hire any welder it wants. Now contractualy insert Company B, with Company A still assuming responsibility (they have the prime contract). Company B's welder is then qualified to Company A's procedure. Same result.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
To cover my rear from all angles, having the contractor qualify PQR/WPS, basing our WPS/PQR as reference looks like a safe option.
Thankyou guys for all your valuable inputs. The thread is still open for inputs...
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
QW 100.1 clearly states "Any WPS's used by a manufacturer or contractor that will have responsible operational control of production welding shall be a WPS that has been qualified by that manufacturer or contractor in accordance with Article 2,...."
The key words are "responsible operational control"
If company Bs welders are employed by Company A they are under the control of Company A, if the work is sub contracted out to Company B then they are not.
Regards,
BB
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
AWS D1.1 says the same thing. Have a look at 4.1.1.1. It is a less wordy and watered down version of QW-201, but both state "manufacturer or contractor" as having responsibility for qualifying their own WPSs.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
No, not for ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code work.
Solution - use Standard Welding Procedure Specifications issued by AWS. The SWPS is intended for this type of application.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Have a look at the two clauses I have noted above for ASME B31.3 and 31.1.
If I am interpreting the codes correctly it can be done as long as all the requirements listed are complied with.
ASME VIII Div 1 is quite clear that it cannot be done.
Regards,
BB
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
As far as I can see, NEN-3650 Annex D does not refer to any of this issue.
Regards,
PK
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
What materials are you welding on?
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
API 5L Gr. X65 PSL2 to A860 Gr. WPHY65
A694 Gr. F65 to A860 Gr. WPHY65
A694 Gr. F65 to API 5L Gr. X65 PSL2
AISI 8630 -0065S to API 5L Gr. X65 PSL2
Super Duplex 2507 to Super Duplex 2507
All butt-welds.
Regards,
PK
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
I'm not familiar with the API and Netherlands codes as you have listed. So I wouldn't want to give you bad advice there.
Whatever material combinations you are using to build to the ASME B31.3 code, you could use a common WPS as Ballbearing1 has suggested above, assuring it meets all the requirements listed in B31.3.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
If you are working to B31.3 Chapter IX (K) my statements above are not applicable.
Section K specifically prohibits qualification by others.
Regards,
BB
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
First of all, even B31.3, 328.2.2 gives clear and concise restrictions about the clause. If you do not meet all the requirements thereof, then there is no doubt that you cannot apply that clause. Period.
Any code is established such that if you choose to build to it, the rules within must be followed. They are established for a reason, and I can guarantee you it is not to be "blindly followed".
DVWE: "Why didn't you hydro that vessel?"
SJones: "Because if I did, then I would be blindly following the code. Trust me, I know I don't need to."
Boom.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
So then, what is the reason for the prevention of transfer of WPSs? Quality? Legal liability? Certainly not engineering.
Why then is there also an 'Interpretations' process if one must blindly follow the Code?
Read my proposal and work out who, ultimately, is the manufacturer, fabricator, or erector.
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Raikwar has stated he is working to B31.3 (K) which as noted is High Pressure Piping.
Section K328.2.2 Procedure Qualification by Others states " Qualification of welding procedures by others is not permitted."
I don't think any "interpretation" is needed to understand the meaning of that statement.
Regards,
BB
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Come on - open your minds and get out of that box!
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Yes, yes, and you are completely wrong about engineering.
Why then is there also an 'Interpretations' process if one must blindly follow the Code?
You don't blindly follow a code. You either follow the rules, or you don't. If along the way, you need interpretations made, that can be done too.
Read my proposal and work out who, ultimately, is the manufacturer, fabricator, or erector.
They could be all the same organization, three separate entities, or several (sub-contracted) entities. Either way, the code says that each is responsible for his own work. How much clearer can it be?
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Archie Bunker would say, ' you're throwing pearls in the wine'.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
"Dummy up!"
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
This is occurring because the equipment is located on the owners site and the welding quality is being controlled and verified by the owner on site.
We have done this for as long as I've been involved with welding and there has never been any question. I agree that in most cases the contractor normally will qualify a procedure to where he is welding solely under his own banner. In fact the above mentioned contractor is in the process of qualifying a procedure to match the one he is now welding under. The owner will conduct the required tests for the contractor. We have done this many times for contractors.
As I've mentioned many times before we do all the QC of any welding on site and any testing of welders. If a contractor's welder hasn't welded on material for us in the previous 6 months he is required to requalify/certify to his ability to weld.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
I believe we are under two different sets of assumptions here, based on your last post and what unclesyd has posted.
There is a difference between hiring sub-contracted welders, which Company A still has responsible operational control of the production welding, and sub-contracting the entire welding operation to Company B, in which case Company B now has responsible operational control of the production welding. Therefore they (Company B) now is responsible for their own WPSs.
I am under the assumption of the latter. And I believe you are under the assumption of the former. In which case I can agree with you on.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
He stated that only one time was he tested to D1.1 in steel erection business. Most of the time he said that someone may look at his first weld or at times it maybe the tenth weld.
Of the several times he has worked in the shipyard he hasn't been tested.
He was tested while welding for the petroleum company. It was a plate test and all his welding while working there was welding gas pipe.
He has been tested to different procedures under Sect IX at the three vessel fabricators, all are code shops. He has copies of all tests taken at these shops. He says that two of the shops have a file on him even though he is employed by the rent-a-weld company. The rent-a-welder company keeps no records of any kind related to his welding.
He said that one company company apparently keeps no records on the rent-a-welders. I checked and they only keep time on site records and welding qualifications and NDT records are kelp with the vessel package. As far as he knows his credentials have only been checked one time where welder/welders of record was questioned in a weld involving multiple welders.
Apparently one shop tries to keep him on the projects where there are low NDT requirements. He thinks there is no restrictions in the other two shops on what he welds under his qualifications.
PS:
He recently went to work as "building engineer" for company that recently moved into a large new building and was told to setup a shop that included what he needed for welding as long as the equipment was by a certain manufacturer. He has it all SMAW, TIG, MIG. He was tested by a local NDT company to the Sect IX. The question now is how to maintain his certification and is being discussed with the company' insurance carrier, the NDT company, and a consultant.
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Not sure what you mean by "reactionaries" ?
We were simply stating opinions and just because those opinions differ from yours does not make us "reactionaries".
I agree with DVWE that there are two scenarios but I was definitely not of the same opinion as you on which scenario is stated here.
"Subcontract the production welding to a contractor" leads me to believe the work will be performed in the subcontractors premises whereas a statement along the lines of "hire subcontract welders to perform the production welding" would lead me to believe it was the scenario you are ascribing to.
Regards,
BB
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/8/83b/b04
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
you can rent a welder but you have to test him/her (WPQ)
ASME B&PV mandates full contrl of welders by fabricator,
mean that welders can belong to another company but managed as hired and fired by the fabricator, if the fab. can not proove that to the AI, the AI can stop the production of those welders, it is getting serious.
genblr
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
First of all, thanks for all of the replies.
Question:
I work for company 'A', and I have seleted our own (company 'A') WPS for our project. Due to time constraints we had to subcontract the production welding to a contractor.
Is it acceptable (per AMSE &/or AWS) to hire a contractor, qualify their welder to company 'A' WPS & use company A WPS for the production weld.
Let me re-state the question:
I work for company 'A' and we have selected company 'A' WPS # 1 for our project. Due to excessive internal work load, we need additional help to get the welding on our project completed on time.
Can I hire a sub-contract welder from company 'B' to work under company 'A' QA system to weld uning company 'A' weld procedure?
If yes, what actions or verifications must I do with the sub-contract welder from company 'B' to allow him to weld using company 'A' WPS # 1.
Steve
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
RE: Use of a company's WPS by contractor
Steve