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ABS vacuum rating
2

ABS vacuum rating

ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
I need to find out the pressure ratings for ABS piping.

I tried the ABS web page and no luck. Googled it and no luck either.

Basically, I have 3", sched40 ABS piping for a vacuum application. I need to know how much vacuum this pipe can handle.

Full vacuum maybe?

Does anyone know where I can find the answer?

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

This says (from) "full" vacuum to 150 psi.
http://www.belco-mfg.com/pipe&duct.htm?count=opSubCat&amp;opNum=8
Might give them a call to see what they're really talking about.
 

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
Yep, that's FRP pipe (fiberglass reinforced plastic), which is the exact same we use in our disposal well lines (for the ones in vacuum, though).

The one I am looking specs for is the ABS, Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene (I can barely pronounce it).

These two would not be the same, would they?

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Crap.  Prob not.  Google said ABS, then I didn't notice this says FRP.  Sorry.   

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: ABS vacuum rating

ABS piping can be FRP piping. winky smile

This Guide specifies the ABS requirements for the certification of offshore pipes and piping components that are made of fiber reinforced plastics (FRP).
GUIDE FOR CERTIFICATION OF FRP HYDROCARBON PRODUCTION PIPING
SYSTEMS MAY 2005
American Bureau of Shipping
 

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
"American Bureau of Shipping", "Anti-lock Braking System", "Australian Bureau of Statistics" etc... Blasted TLA's (three letter acronyms). Can't you english speakers use actual words!?! mad rant-over

JLSeagull, what do you mean that ABS can be FRP? Are you referring to an ABS/FRP meaning that the ABS is reinforced with fiberglass?

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
Ok, so far I narrowed that I need to see ASTM F628-08. But I refuse to pay to buy it for a one time use.
Does anybody has a copy of a table where I can see pressure ratings of different diameters vs. temperature?
I am looking to see what the max vacuum for a 3" sched 40 ABS pipe is.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

ABS isn't FRP, at least as far as I know.  ABS is solid on the outside surface, but foamy on the inside.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Use Timoshenko and establish the buckling criteria. The modulus of elasticity & dimensions of the pipe should come from the manufacturer or the standard you are using.

The vacuum condition that can be met depends upon whether it is aboveground or below ground. For the latter the soil and embedment contribute to keeping the pipe round and hence it is able to withstand high external pressures.

If above ground then the contribution rom the soil is ignore.

ABS piping to AS 3518 is made by Eurapipe in Australia & Malaysia. This ABS is different grade to that using ASTM materials. however the technical manual from this website from below will serve you needs.

http://www.tycoflowcontrol.com.au/tycowater/plastic_pipeline_systems

RE: ABS vacuum rating

FWIW,

I've used 3" and 4" foam-core ABS DWV pipe (and associated fittings of ABS and/or PVC in Sch. 10, 40, 80) for vacuum system, up to ~28 inHg, without ever having seen the pipe or fittings collapse.  All at essentially room temp., perhaps 80 deg. F max.

But, as far as a specification that gives rating for vacuum, I have not seen such.  ABS foam core pipe is intended to be low-pressure Drain/Waste/Vent conduit, having no rated pressure.  I would think, given the use as drain pipe, it should be able to handle a high vacuum (i.e. when siphoning occurs)...

Obviously, you could calculate the collapse pressure, but it would be tricky to do so with the foam core pipe due to the difficulty involved in estimating/measuring the effective modulus of the foam, and not sure how repeatable the section modulus would be.

Sticking a chunk of ABS pipe, capped, into a larger piece of (say) 6" steel pipe, and doing a hydrostatic crush test (filling/pressurizing the 6" pipe) on the 4" pipe section would be a fairly simple test, and would tell you what kind of margins you might have.

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Rather than doing a crushing hydrotest, why not just get about 50 ft of capped pipe, fill with water, stand vertical and open a hole at the bottom to see if it collapses above 35'?   

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
Since we had fuel oils in the equation and ABS is not too fond of those, we decided on PVC piping.

Big Inch, I like your idea and I am sure the guys at the plant will enjoy doing it.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Be sure to tell me if it collapses progressively all the way down as the water makes its way out.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
I think what I am going to do, as 30 ft of pipe might prove a little challenging, is to attach a section of it to the vac truck's hose and start sucking.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Presumedly with the truck pump.

I bet 10 to 1 it doesn't collapse.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
These are the types of trucks: http://www.vactor.com/pdf/VacuumSafetyP702.pdf

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

"Rather than doing a crushing hydrotest, why not just get about 50 ft of capped pipe, fill with water, stand vertical and open a hole at the bottom to see if it collapses above 35'? "

But then you won't have any idea how much margin you might have.

I would agree, at 10:1 or any odds you want, that it won't collapse, at any length, at up to 32 inHg.

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Unotec:

The acronym "FRP" stands for Fiberglass Reinforced Pipe.  Acrylobutylnitrile (ABS) pipe is certainly NOT AN FRP.  ABS pipe is (& was) developed specifically for plumbing use - primarily in drain, waste, & vent (DWV) applications.  It can be used for a lot of other applications.  I've even used it in irrigation and chemical drains.

In order to find the vacuum rating(s) for this pipe, I suggest you contact or call:

Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association
800 Roosevelt Road
Building C, Suite 312
Glen Ellyn, Illinois 60137
Phone: (630) 858-6540
Fax: (630) 790-3095

They have a website, but the registration part that allows you to access their engineering literature is not working.

It is common to use ABS pipe on a vacuum pump or a vacuum lift in evacuating sumps and septic tanks.  In such applications, it is certainly not a possibility to produce a "full vacuum" (-760 mm mercury column).  Full vacuum takes a special vacuum pump.  What I believe you are referring to is drawing a partial vacuum - which unfortunately most engineers label as a vacuum and assume this is a full vacuum.  A full vacuum can be drawn in a test - exactly as Big Inch specifys: by filling a vertial, capped, 35+ foot-long ABS pipe section 100% full with water and draining the bottom.  You will draw a perfect vacuum - or so close, it's not worth measuring.

I don't believe a conventional 3" ABS pipe will withstand a full vacuum - but it will withstand a partial vacuum (which may be all you need).  How much of a partial vacuum?  Call the PPFA and find out.



 

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Are you taking my bet?  Standard wall, by the way, right?  I hope they have standard walls.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Dear Montemayor/BigInch

ABS I understand always stands for a 'Co-Polymerized plastic product of Acrylonitrile,Butadiene and Styrene.The Tyco pdf also confirms the same.

As such definitely it is not a FRP indeed!
 

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
Yes, it will be partial vacuum, I am aware. The issue is some of the guys here are so... detailed, that they want assurance that the pipe can handle full vacuum.

I would not expect less than 300mmHg. In any event, the site has agreed to put a piece of pipe at the vac's hose and giv'er!!

I do not expect it to collapse. By the way, I chose to use the PVC piping instead due to material compatibilities.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Montemayor,

What kinda money you throwin' down, I want some of that action too.

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Don't overlook the fact that temperature will have a very dramatic effect on the vacuum strength of any plastic pipe, as would even slight solvent exposure.

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
Well, if you wanna bet, here are the specs:
PVC 2" sched 40 pipe
Vac's capacity 0.3 atm (at best)Temp: about 15ºC
No fluid will be sucked during the trial

But I'm the broker, so I take 10% on the bets, eh!

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

AND  ...
...just in case anyone missed it  ...
...  ... in my response after Biginch mentioned his error ...
   ...   ...  a smiley face exists next to my post mentining the ABS (American Bureau of Shipping) certification requirements for FRP piping. winky smile

I appologize if it was not sufficiently obvious.  Where are the Brits when one tries to invoke a bit of humor anyway?
 

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Oh???
Ya!
lollollol  You're killing me here. lollollol

British humor at its finestwinky smile

-------------------------------
I'll take on all comers at 10:1 that a 2" x S40 PVC survives whatever vacuum that truck can put on it at 15ºC, provided its round when you start the test.  Now's your chance.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: ABS vacuum rating

We use 6" PVC sewer pipe (SDR-35 3034 stamped on pipe) for vacuum(air only). It has cycled between 5 to >28 inHg about 50 times a day for the last 10 years with only 2 problems.

1: 3ft. long pipe connecting to pump was slightly oval, work fine for about 6 months before imploding.

2: capped the end of a 30ft. long pipe with an elbow at the other end, then another 8ft. of pipe and a tee.  worked for a few years before the cap imploded and traveled fast enough to bust thru the elbow and the tee, sending several pieces of pvc into the insulation on the wall.

Never had a problem with 2 inch or smaller.    

RE: ABS vacuum rating

There goes my money.

A 2"xS40 should be good to about -279 psi.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Since all the Giants are speaking out loudly what they feel justified.

There isn't much room for 'newbie's ' like me uttering their tiny voice(s)

Still I add little bit; The case for vacume application of plastic pipes might be and most usually is 'TRUE'

only for smaller diameters and Not very long pipeline lengths at near ambient temperature(s) of moderate weather conditions.

Hope this summarizes.  

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Look at the Plastic Piping Handbook by Dave Willoughby.  He addresses "critical external pressure" and love's equation.  If you have the needed properties of the pipe material you can determine the external load (from pressure or overburden) that will cause unconstrained buckling of the wall.  Using 14.7 psig as the external load would be VERY conservative.

John

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
Actually, there will be no external loads (other than the air pressure). The pipe will be used as an extension to the vacuum hose for cleaning tanks without going inside them.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

When you have a partial vacuum in a cylinder the outside atmospheric pressure IS AN EXTERNAL LOAD.

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
I agree, thus my comment in brackets.
However, being completely ignorant of the book you referred before, will not those equations consider external loading as the weight of the soil?
This is unchartered territory for me, but as I see things, you will have the load of the earth on a buried pipe compressing it; while at the same time, it will help prevent the pipe from losing its roundness.
In my case, nothing would prevent the pipe from losing its shape other than its own mechanical strength.
Well, I guess you can also consider the atmospheric pressure the same as the earth loading.
This is a one time for me, so I do not think I will buy the book, but I will keep it for reference.
Thanks

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Just a couple comments, as I've gotten a kick out of following all the emoticons on this one!  While I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "fuel oils", you might want to double-check to make sure they are compatible with the specific "pvc" you are considering (not saying this is the case here, but I believe some spills of contaminants etc. have been the result of assumptions/perceptions of inertness to the chemicals, that were really not there for the specific long-term exposure).  Also, I believe in any buckling or collapse-resistance design or tests involving such piping, you should make sure the elastic modulus etc. you assume in the calculations is suitable for the temperature and term or duration of load application.  At room temperature e.g. a short-term elastic modulus say e.g. of ~400,000 psi might reduce to an apparent modulus of 140,000 psi or so if loads were applied inexorably for many years.  Also, even a (at least short-term) collapse test of plastic pipes subject to creep may not necessarily predict security, if the actual service includes longer-term (and/or  potentially higher temperature?) external load application.    

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
rconner, I appreciate your comments and realize I should be more specific on the 'fuel oils'... waste laden crap is it's unofficial name. It is basically the left over solids from waste oil recovery.

It comes from waste most producing facilities and tank farms have. It ends up in our tanks, we recover as much oil as possible, which is mainly crude of very varied characteristics, and the solids left at the bottom of the tank, in every turn around, are cleaned with the vac truck.

So this pipe will man handled all the time. Basically I want just to make sure that the operator does not loose the gloves or coveralls while sucking the bottoms.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Dear Unotec,
Somehow I am not inclined to accept that the plastic pipes may have sufficient withholding strength to stand vacuum conditions in real situations.Unless specially designed for the service.

As we have seen vacuum conditions disastrous effect in industry on many otherwise strong vessels/tanks/containers subjected to vacuum conditions incidentally or unplanned(without specific design) etc.

However the particular service application you referred in most recent posts involving partial vacuum may be practical although with a much shortened life cycle.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

RE: ABS vacuum rating

REPEAT!

It will withstand -280 psi as long as you can keep it round, manhandling stresses low, and the rest of the properties intact.

That's equivalent to like 19 atmospheres of "vacuum".
I think it'll work for long enough.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
I cannot find a blasted emoticon handing cash, because my bet is with you BigInch.

I know my truck will not even achieve full vacuum, but... other than theoretically, can you actually achieve vacuum below 0mmHg? (on earth)

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

(OP)
Well, yes, I guess at the bottom of the ocean you would

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: ABS vacuum rating

Pipe doesn't care if you want to call it a vacuum below absolute or external pressure.  It just changes its hoop stress from the usual tension from internal pressure to compression for external pressure.

How's this one?

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

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