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PE registration
11

PE registration

PE registration

(OP)
Does anyone know which state has the lowest standards for education requirements to qualify for PE license?

RE: PE registration

To my knowledge, all US states require graduation from an ABET accredited college, an internship of at least 3 years, and at least two exams.

Check the NCEES website....you might find more info.

If you get licensed in a state with lower standards, other states will typically not accept that licensing.

RE: PE registration

Wisconsin has a path to PE withut a degree, but the experience requirements are much higher.  Also, non-degreed candidates must pass both FE and PE.

RE: PE registration

3
You still need to have the PE license of the state(s) you want practice in so why not start there?. Unless you intend to move to another state.


 

RE: PE registration

6
I know a guy who has a two year Associate's degree in engineering technology and he will be sitting for the FE via the Colorado PE Board this April.  Colorado will let you be a PE with 12 years of engineering experience (including education) and passing the FE and PE exams. Colorado has a fairly "low bar" in terms of university education to be a PE.  Most state PE Board's that I am aware of require at least a four year Bachelor's degree in a related subject.

I disagree with licensing an individual as a Professional Engineer if they do not even have a related Bachelor's degree. An Associate's degree (or no degree) is perhaps appropriate for the licensing of Real Estate Agents but not for Professional Engineers!  One has to wonder how the NCEES "Master's or Equivalent" stuff will actually (if ever) be implemented by various state PE Boards and legislatures in light of existing laws like this...  

RE: PE registration

sundale,

   I know someone who was licensed as a PE in Ontario, Canada with a three year diploma.  My understanding is that he took a lot of extra courses, so his training was equivalent to a degree, even if he did not have the piece of paper.

               JHG

RE: PE registration

That stupid piece of paper, makes a big difference.  Too bad there isn't a better way to judge one's abilities other than with credentials.

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: PE registration

If the technical questions on your two little tests don't establish academic credibility in lieu of that provided by a degree then one might wonder what they are for?

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: PE registration

swertel,

   They did license him, without the degree.  The degree indicates a minimum level of knowledge.  He demonstrated the minimum level of knowledge by some other means.  

   When I got certified as a technologist, I was asked for a transcript of my marks, so it was not just the diploma.  My $50 PhD from Billy Bob and cuzzin Elmo's college would not have worked.

   There was an article in Harper's magazine many years ago, about SAT testing in the USA.  They pointed out that American high school graduates are much better at multiple choice tests than Europeans, because they do so many of them.  The inaccuracy of IQ tests is well documented.

   Someone wrote to the editor pointing out that the alternative is to systematically recruit people from ivy league schools and other good ol' boy networks, which winds up being even more elitist.  A person from a working class family or some other undesirable cultural/racial minority at least has the chance to work hard and ace the test, or pass the course.

               JHG

RE: PE registration

Still the states, which require a degree will not issue PE license to those who do not have degrees, regardless of whether they have PE license in another state.

So assuming Sundale's post is correct, getting Colorado PE will only be good there, not necessarily elsewhere.

 

RE: PE registration

Passing the FE, PE and perhaps SE exams does not mean that you are a good engineer and it is not the crowning achievement of your career.  All it means that you were able to pass an 8 hour test on a given subject matter on a given day and that you are PROBABLY not a terrible engineer.

In the real world, you do not get credit for designing a building column that is 83% correct; these FE/PE/SE tests are not a good measurement of one's real world engineering skills.  On the contrary, the FE/PE/SE tests are INDICATIVE of one's technical knowledge and they are also a fair measurement because everyone has to pass the same tests to get licensed.  

Passing these FE, PE and perhaps SE tests simply formally demonstrates that you possess "entry level technical competence" in order to practice engineering and offer your expertise to the public as a consulting engineer, which requires licensure as a Professional Engineer. There are many very talented engineers who are not licensed PE's that work in exempt industries and there are also some really bad consulting engineers who managed to get licensed and somehow stay licensed...

Sucessfully passing FE/PE/SE tests (fortunately) cannot be seen a SUBSTITUTE for holding at least a Bachelor's degree in engineering or a related subject in most states in the USA.  How "professional" is the engineering profession in the eyes of the public if non-degreed individuals can become licensed Professional Engineers? We engineers constantly whine about the lack of respect our professional gets in comparison to say doctors or lawyers.  How would you feel if you learned that your doctor never actually graduated from eight years of medical school, but was able to successfully pass his/her medical board exams and get a medical licensed anyway? There is no way this scenario would be acceptable to the public and this is one reason why doctors, in general, do get more respect and pay than engineers.

As a structural engineer, I have the potential to hurt or kill FAR MORE people than any doctor has ever dreamed! This same statement would also potentially apply example, for example, to an unlicensed engineer who designs a faulty aircraft braking system...   

RE: PE registration

sundale:

What is the purpose of your last post? It has nothing to do with OP's question or anyone else's response.

 

RE: PE registration

"to an unlicensed engineer who designs a faulty aircraft braking system...   "

I suspect many engineers that design aircraft & aircraft related components are unlicensed, since aerospace is generally an exempt industry.  At least in CA there isn't even an 'aerospace/aeronautical' PE anyway.

The subject of not being an Engineer without bachelors &/or degree has been done to death a bunch of times on this site and really doesn't need doing again.  My own views on the matter are well known and oft lamented facts of Eng-Tips history (to plagerize Cyrus the Virus).

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: PE registration

The one that has the most problems getting comity to the other 49...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: PE registration

(OP)
msquared48's post is right on.  My question is not to bring up an argument of how the licensing process is flawed but rather the simple question of which of the 50 states has the most trouble with comity to the other 49 states?

RE: PE registration

JPAULI167,

  It's probabaly a difficult question to answer without researching all 50 states' requirements.  I would HOPE they all had similar tests and standards.  I would guess that the work experience credit standards may be different.
  One question you may wish to ask is about reciprocity to other states.  Which states readily accept PE licenses from other states?  It would appear that you have 50 websites to searh for...  Are there PE tests in Guam, Puerto Rico, and the US virgin Islands?

RE: PE registration

Visit www.ncees.org as Ron suggested in the very first response. They have all the info on reciprocity (licensing through comity) of PE licensing and what states accepts what from other states boards, etc. In fact if you seek to get licenses in multuple states, you will do well to set up a "record" with NCEES.

You need to visit that site to know more.

 

RE: PE registration

The very question sends shivers down my spine! Why are you shooting for the LOWEST standards?

I've known many old-school engineers who were registered without degrees. They all had 20-30 years experience designing machines, and they all started as drafters. All would pass the current PE exams, because they were good engineers and they would prepare for the test.

RE: PE registration

sundale;

Quote:

Passing the FE, PE and perhaps SE exams does not mean that you are a good engineer and it is not the crowning achievement of your career.  All it means that you were able to pass an 8 hour test on a given subject matter on a given day and that you are PROBABLY not a terrible engineer.

The above is a completely misguided and uninformed statement.

 

RE: PE registration

Please elaborate, met.

RE: PE registration

PE is not a sufficient but a necessary qualification of being a good "practicing" engineer.  

If this needs to be expanded it should be taken to a different (dead horse) thread.

RE: PE registration

I agree.  I also agree with sundale's bit, which seems to sum it up well.  I'm curious as to the particular points of metengr's disagreement.

RE: PE registration

From what I can tell, the PE system exists for industries where:

a) Product cannot be physically tested.
b) Product failure can cause numerous deaths.
c) Industry has poor system of check & balances.

If the industry has ALL of the above 3 conditions, licensing is required. If you don't have all 3, then licensing has been shown to be unnecessary in those industries.

RE: PE registration

In support of sundale, I have met many degreed engineers with a PE who appeared to have very little engineering knowledge or judgement.

The degree and test cannot screen out everyone who is incompetent, but it probably does screen out most of them.  In my general experience, the engineers who had no problem passing the test are better engineers than the ones who took the test several times before passing.  Of course there are exceptions.

The 4 year engineering degree and the PE means that you have done the minimum required to be an engineer (in civil, I don't want to start the PE discussion).

I have met very few good engineers who did not have a bachelor's and a PE, so the degree/license is an instance of something which is necessary, but not sufficient.  This is coming from someone with only 5 years engineering experience, so take it with a grain of salt.

RE: PE registration

PE is a 'License" - a statutory requirement. Not much different than a driving license. You need that to legally practice your profession meaning charging general public (clients) for your services. It meets min. qualification. It is does not make you better or worse than others, but does give you legal permission and some protection.

Just like getting a driving license does not make you a better driver but testifies that you do qualify. So ranting about how good A driver one is without a license does not get you too far with a police officer pulling him over.

After all you won't take an experienced medical assistant as a qualified doctor, would you? Although there can be a terrible doctor with medical degrees and registrations.

Engineers working in exempt industries are protected by their companies who do need to meet minimum standards for whatever they are making. There are inherent checks and balances there. While a lone PE can decide to design a electrical system for a building, and he alone may be responsible to check his own work and then own up to it. It is for those that a statutory registration and licensing is necessary like for any other professional practices.

Having said that ones with PEs to get paid more than non-PEs, all other things being equal. If you are in such field it pays to get licensed/registered.

RE: PE registration

California PE will not get comity from states requiring four year experience, (California requires two years).

RE: PE registration

if the OP is trying to get a PE without a bachelor's, then IMO, sundale's post is relevant because he's stating his opinion that having registration without a degree is an embarrassment to the profession.  and he's right, passing any of those registration exams means absolutely  nothing except that you had a good day on an 8 hour test.  letters after your name doesn't make you a good engineer.  i've met some dumb doctors.  does having the PHd or MD after their name make them better at their profession than their colleagues?  no.  because everyone (or most or a significant number) in said profession is expected to have it.   

RE: PE registration

Quote:

passing any of those registration exams means absolutely  nothing except that you had a good day on an 8 hour test.

Not quite.  First you have to qualify to take the test.  In Wisconsin, that means cataloging relevant experience and getting it approved by the board, getting references from other PE's, and passing the FE (only degreed engineers with adequate experience can skip the FE).


 

RE: PE registration

Quote:

(only degreed engineers with adequate experience can skip the FE).

This is another example that will typically prevent comity with other states, particularly those that follow the NCEES criteria.  

RE: PE registration

Perhaps I am off base commenting, however the point about Ontario (and by implication, Canadian) licensing was brought up.  Feel free to ignore this post completely if not interested:

The Canadian system is, like the American, a mélange of the French & British systems.  The French believe that University, and only University, can make one an engineer.  They loosely have a PE-esque system, but it is much less rigorous and matters very little in day to day practice.  The British have very stringent requirements, however do not actually require a degree whatsoever, of any kind.  They just set the bar differently for different individuals.  By law you also do not have to be licensed to practice in the UK, however in effect you do given that the firms both expect and enforce such systems, while many local authorities (ie: City Building Depts) require a licensed individual to sign off on works.

So, what do the French and British have to do with us colonials?  Well, we adopted their systems, or variations thereof, and have slowly modified them to suit our purposes.  In the US this has meant requiring BOTH the French style education requirements AND the British experience and performance.  In Canada we to have BOTH systems, however they essentially stand as two separate paths to licensing, and just as for Drawoh's friend, a mixture of the two can often be used.

A cautionary note:  The Canadian "by Examination" system is not for the faint of heart.  You may not have to go to University to get your P.Eng, however you will be made to write a battery of exams (often in excess of fifteen) as well as show experience and professional development.  The system is essentially your final exams for all fundamental subjects as well as design and analysis subjects.  This includes everything from Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics, through to Waste Water, Concrete I&II, Steel I&II, etc, etc.  You show that you COULD have gotten a degree, had you bothered to go to University.

It is also very expensive, and can take years.  I would never hesitate to hire or work with an engineer who was licensed in this way.

Regards,

YS, P.Eng (Ontario), MIPENZ
--> Included the licensings for this post just in case you wonder where I'm coming from in all of that).

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

RE: PE registration

"From what I can tell, the PE system exists for industries where:   "
Originally PEs were civil and/or land surveyors and they dealt with peoples land ( ie money ).  The state initiated the PE system to protect peoples property.
It's been extended to protect the publics safety ( and in some case's their money in a round about way).
Manufacturing and industry is regulated by economics and lawyers.
 

RE: PE registration

Quote:

The British have very stringent requirements, however do not actually require a degree whatsoever, of any kind.  They just set the bar differently for different individuals.  By law you also do not have to be licensed to practice in the UK, however in effect you do given that the firms both expect and enforce such systems, while many local authorities (ie: City Building Depts) require a licensed individual to sign off on works.

Very stringent? The UK? Are you kidding? Just about anyone who can wipe their ass unaided can pretend to be an engineer in the UK. To achieve Chartership, once the Holy Grail of UK engineering, gets easier as the universities and professional bodies dumb down to maintain revenue from fees. I doubt the technical ability of the UK's professional engineers has ever been lower, and it worsens each year.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: PE registration

Scotty, maybe things have gone down hill a lot in that last few years but when I was looking back in 01/02 it was still pretty stringent as I recall, at least for my society.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: PE registration

Hi Kenat,

I'm judging on the standard of people who are being awarded their C.Eng who I encounter day to day, week to week. There's certainly a lot of paperwork and diary-keeping involved in the latest 'UK-SPEC' application process (you probably remember the SARTOR system which preceded it) but the technical capability of those being churned out is definitely worsening in our industry. I would be reassured if I ever heard of someone failing to get their Chartership but I never seem to. In the case of my own professional body (the IEE), I don't think the merger with the electrical technician's professional body to create the new 'IET' did anything except increase membership revenue.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: PE registration

Hmm, interesting.  I was actually looking at taking a few OU classes toward my masters to improve myself for chartership as I wasn't sure I'd meet whatever requirements were in place at the time.  I thought the lists of requirements & rules etc were long & painfull till I looked at California PE and with my background put it on the back burner.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: PE registration

The problem with the IMechE at least is twofold. Firstly when they amalgamated with smaller more specialised bodies they grandfathered their Members in. Now, no disrespect, but the acousticians (for example) may be mighty fine acoustics people, but they HAVE NOT ground their way through a mech eng course (or equivalent). So they shouldn't be MIMechEs.

The other problem is that in their more recent haste to be all things to all people they have gone for two year degree people and technicians in a big way. I suspect that is why the Civs and the Leccies refuse to join forces with the IMechE. I must confess, every year that $300 looks like worse value for money.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: PE registration

OK, got to jump in here.  I'm a PE in 20+ states, but not actively practicing all of them for about 10 years, so, some of this may no longer be correct, but I think it's close to correct if not exactly correct even today.  Here's the skinny as best I understand, including law and precedent.  States license engineers as PE's and rule on two issues: Use of the title engineer, and, when a license is required.  NCEES tried to normalize requirements, the states pushed back, and NCEES became a clearing house for "certified records" but not the requirements themselves which remain the prevue of the states.  An NCEES record is helpful because references, transcripts, record of graduation do not need to be recreated for every state application.  States recognize each other by comity (not the same as reciprocity; look it up).  All states, to my knowledge, now recognize the EIT (did they rename this?) and PE as administered by NCEES, but some (NY for sure, perhaps others) require a higher "passing" test score to become licensed.  Once licensed, you can practice in any engineering branch, except that California requires a structural engineering degree and license (and samples of your work) to be licensed to practice structural engineering.  In all states, the emphasis is always on being smart enough to know when you are in over your head, and need council from others.  This is the way I always responded to reference requests, and junior engineers, with minimal experience that exercised good judgment (including knowing their own limitations) got licensed with no problems.  A license is required to practice engineering, when engineering is the service being sold.  When engineering is incidental to something else being sold (like a product) a license is NOT required, and the use of TITLE ENGINEER is not regulated.  Head spinning yet?  Here's the theory, and a few examples:  Provide consulting engineering services, sell only services, a license is required, and the title engineer cannot be used if you are not licensed.  In some states, the law requires the owners of an engineering firm must be licensed, especially if the company is a professional corporation, not a business corporation. (Same and sometimes more restrictive rules for Architectural firms, where more than 50% ownership must be a licensed architect, in some states)  Work for a car or airplane manufacturer, and your employer is not selling engineering, they are selling cars or airplanes.  The legal recourse by the public is product liability law, not professional licensing.  The employer may ask for it, but the law does not.  Get it?  OK, state licensing requirements.  About 10 years ago, I had an engineer working for me, and I encouraged him to see if there were any final "eminence in the profession" (30 years experience and age over 50, typical) opportunities left, and he was able to get a license in both New Hampshire and Maine.  Each board required samples of work, and an oral exam.  He was very capable, and did fine, and was awarded a license in both states.  (He indicated he would only practice where he was competent, he told the board I asked him to get a license, I was a reference, and he was approved) I know both states were considering changing their requirements, but don't know if they have, so, I would suggest looking into both.  Also, if you go this route, apply to ALL possible at once, so, on the questionnaire you can answer "no" to the question "have you ever been denied registration in another state"  regardless of the outcome of your efforts in one state vs. another.  This is a very emotionally charged subject, and I'm not taking sides on that issue here.  I'm responding to the original question, and how best to proceed without a degree.  I might add I haven't followed the content of the exams since I took them in the 70's but would almost guarantee they still include calculus, which would be extremely difficult for someone who didn't get this math in school. Many licensed engineers use no calculus, so, it would be very difficult to get this skill and experience on the job.

RE: PE registration

PilotPM: You asked if they renamed the EIT... In my circles, the exam is the Fundamentals of Engineering Exam (FE). You get the title Engineer in Training (EIT) if you pass. However, many people still refer to the exam as the EIT exam instead of FE. Personally, I prefer to just state that I have passed the FE, instead of using the term EIT. Mostly because the work I do does not require it, so I may never sit for the PE exam (technically Principles and Practice Exam I believe). I don't think I'll like being called an "Engineer in Training" in another 30 years, even though based on the NCEES, that would be my title...

-- MechEng2005

RE: PE registration

FE, yes, that's it.  EIT exam is now FE exam, and I never encouraged EIT as a designation in our office because of the confusion is raises just as you suggest.  On a personal note, I think the various boards have missed the point.  Demanding that a degreed engineer cannot use the title engineer is equally confusing. For doctors, lawyers and accountants, the title is yours with academic degree, but you must do a residency, pass the bar exam, or CPA exam to be licensed to practice.  This would probably make much more sense, but getting 50 states, NCEES, and now perhaps NAFTA agreement at this point is unlikely.  Now, for you personally, if you have the FE exam passed, I would encourage you to look at the PE exam, if you are in a business vertical where it has value, such as an architectural/engineering firm.  I'm told the PE is now multiple choice, but my guess is fundamentally it has not changed at all, meaning, it will be math and basic engineering principal intensive, while demonstrating the ability to put that basic knowledge into practice to solve real world problems.  I studied by just doing problems (NCEES used to sell copies of old tests, as questions were never reused, don't know about that today).  After 5-10 hours of scratching at it, a trend emerged, which generally required you bridge some concepts across basic courses, perhaps in a manner you had never seen in school, but possible just the same, in a novel way to solve the questions asked.  From that point on it was just do several of each type, patterns emerged, confidence grew, and you were ready.  The test was exhausting, but predictable.  That's my experience, anyway.  I made it a personal practice to get in the face of every new engineer to take the FE ASAP (no study required if taken within a year of graduation) and the PE as soon as qualified by experience, as, really, the experience wasn't as important as the study preparation, which was easier with a shorter period from academic saturation.

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