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Run-on Sentences
2

Run-on Sentences

Run-on Sentences

(OP)
I love run-on sentences.  

thread768-237091: Details of PMP courses

I don't speak, read or write another language with any proficiency.  Do the commas and periods trip up other multi-language gifted people?

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Run-on Sentences

"trip-up" as in "took me couple reads to, finally, figure out what I think it is being asked"? Then YES.

I am not a "multi-language gifted" more like "multi-language challenged" but still, punctuation marks are needed.

As well, I strongly encourage the use of the biggest key in the keyboard <ENTER>

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Run-on Sentences

hey, the biggest keys on my keyboard are labeled "Shift."
 

RE: Run-on Sentences

I must have an old style keyboard then. The one with the "piano style" key.

Maybe it should also be considered to paint it red. Few people seem to use it.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Run-on Sentences

How about the spacebar. That seems to bigger then either the "ENTER" or "SHIFT" keys...

RE: Run-on Sentences

Oops, KENAT already mentioned the spacebar... I gotta learn to read the whole thread before trying to be a smart-ass

RE: Run-on Sentences

yeah!
andwhosaysmykeyboardhasaspacebaranyway?
 

RE: Run-on Sentences

It's certainly an effective method of weeding out the impatient.
I would usually pass quickly onto the next question.

RE: Run-on Sentences

By the time I got to the end of the sentance I'd forgotten what was at the start.

RE: Run-on Sentences

2
Helpful.
 
That is what we are supposed to be.

I feel some sympathy for anyone posting on Eng-Tips, whatever their native language, as it is possible to be picked up on just about everything, including use or non-use of Smileys (though in this forum, anyone is fair game and no sympathy required, deserved or expected).

Indeed, I have been jumped on (OK, rightly so and in other forums) for over-long sentences, spelling, not leaving blank lines between paragraphs, using "i" instead of "I" (no auto-correct) and for a great many other linguistic offences.
Free licence to all to chastise me since it is obvious that although I speak a minority language, it is a language which despite its idiosyncrasies has enough commonality with other similar languages to permit comprehension i.e. mine is UK English (of a sort) and hence mostly understood by all those who speak other forms of the same root language.

But I suggest there is a degree of tolerance required for those who find English more of a challenge but who wish to address the widest possible engineering experience.

SO: while it is a problem to read some posts and it is appropriate to refer to the problem here in the language forum, I do hope someone will take the trouble to help the OP with his actual query.

Possibly it is fine, in that thread to address some of the language issues to help clarify the engineering related content.

There is, however, an issue that does need to be considered, which is the extent to which English is a common language for international communication and how to encourage it not because English is necessarily any better or worse than any other language but simply because it is one of the most convenient and widespread of languages.

Cheresources, possibly reflecting a US bias or base, has both an English language section and a Spanish section.

Should Eng-tips do the same? I hope not.
I would suggest that the ability to communicate effectively, if with somewhat imaginative grammar and spelling, in English allows access the widest range of experience and allows one the widest audience while an own-language website would be limiting.
Unlike normal web sites where the site is available in translation in the various languages, the Spanish language section of Cheresources is simply a forum for Spanish language speakers.

So to me, when someone posts who is obviously not a native speaker, those who are should feel a need to be helpful and consider that the English used is as much a part of the Engineering problem posed as the engineering problem itself.

I suppose we all ought to pick a language and then try posting an engineering question in that language on a suitable website and see how we do, just to gain some humility from the experience.
However, since I am not only an English speaker but one brought up in the UK foreign languages are forever foreign to me.

For those not born in the UK, the English view is that foreign languages are something only for foreigners and the best way to communicate with foreigners is to either take over their country and teach them English or shout. Since the former is now somewhat frowned upon and the latter is impolite one just hopes that foreigners are so much more used to foreign languages that they will learn them just for fun.

This isn't, of course, a originally British Idea, we inherit it most recently from the Romans. (My favourite Life of Brian scene is John Cleese as he centurion, giving latin lessons to the graphite writer who tried to write "Romans Go Home")

But, yes, OK Madmango, there is a great deal of entertainment in some attempts at the English language which accounts for the more amusing of the "Signs" in the Telegraph picture galleries.

peace

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Run-on Sentences

jmw, I agree with you.

However, and beign a non-native english speaker. I do try my best to be very clear when I write in English.

It is not difficult to write something a little more comprehensible. Even when your root language has completely different grammar rules (hindi, japanese, chinese, etc.).

You can try point form or short, very short, paragraphs and sentences.

We can be helpful, but the PM's have to start by helping themselves so that we can help them.

And, in an internet forum, expect to be poked at, especially in an engineering one!

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Run-on Sentences

jmw.  I don't think anyones concerns were with the actual language but the presentation aspects of it.

The English as a second language issue has come up on this forum before and several posters have helped people out.

Even this OP was asking if the presentation/punctuation was a language barrier issue.

I suck at French but when forced to write it did used to put in basic grammer (I'm sure I screwed up the fancy stuff  though).

However, JMW there does appear to be a gradual loss of patience on this site as a whole (or the forums I frequent), at least over the last few months.

If it's a 50/50 call I side with the poster and try & help.  A few others are getting quick with the sarcastic or similar replies.  Then again, a lot of the OP deserve it.  I RF them most of the time and let the site management decide if they want them or not.  However, occasionally, when I feel the OP really deserves it I'll wade in.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Run-on Sentences

Hey: is there any way we can start eliminating "to be" phrases on documents such as:
wall "to be" demolished..
"elevations to match..."
1. it's poor grammar and makes us look stoopid.
2. our documents are contract documents and are either imperative: "shall", or in the optional: "may."
3. "to be" does not identify who does what, see item 1.
4. architects seem to be the worst offenders.
5. AND IT DRIVES ME CRAZY!!!

hammer

 

RE: Run-on Sentences

garpe:

I don't think "MAY" shall be shown anywhere in a contract document. It sounds "permissive" in either way - do this, or do that.

RE: Run-on Sentences

Is that 11/2 = 5 years his friend has worked?

If this is a 2 day course he should just do it, I dont see the dilemma.

RE: Run-on Sentences

Greg,
I recently read an article about deleting the imperatives in specifications to make them "easier to read". These people are nuts.  Imperative language is an absolute necessity in specifications.

Can you imagine....

1.0   The concrete shall have a minimum compressive strength of 4000 psi, when tested in accordance with ASTM C39.

or.....

1.0   OK guys, we want the concrete to be strong.  Maybe you could give us something like 4000 psi concrete and do some testing on it let us know it's OK.

Keeping on topic, lawyers can write some the best run on sentences.  They are famous for one sentence paragraphs that take up half a page.

RE: Run-on Sentences

How to use punctuation:
http://www.rogerdarlington.co.uk/punctuation.html
I am trying to find that speech of Churchill's that runs on and on but is a single sentence. The trouble is that while many politicians may be famed for a single speech ("Four score years ago...." " I have a dream...") Churchill seems to have produced more than a few and the search is difficult.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Run-on Sentences

Ron:

Neither of your examples is imperative.  The first style is declarative mood, and often includes a lot of passive voice, and that's what people are starting to get rid of, in favor of active voice imperative mood.

Passive declarative:
The concrete shall be poured in 8-inch lifts.

Active imperative:
Pour the concrete in 8-inch lifts.

No "maybe" or "kinda" about it.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Run-on Sentences

Long sentences - guilty as charged. Until, that is, an American boss of mine threw a report back at me. His complaint? My sentences averaged 22 words each.

Sir Humphrey and his cronies have a lot to answer for in this respect.

RE: Run-on Sentences

English is a difficult language for anyone...  even for those in the UK and other english speaking countries...  wink

There are many nuances and colloquialisms that are understood by only a few, confusing many, especially those not speaking the language.  

Run-on sentences are solved by breathing and inserting periods where the biggest breaths are taken, commas on the smaller ones.  OR... where different thoughts stop and start.  Semicolons help too.  Just read up on punctuation.  It will help a lot.  

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Run-on Sentences

Writing is difficult, no matter what language it is. In every society, there are always far fewer number of people can write better than the remaining others. Unfortunately, most engineers fall into the latter group, except an exceptionally few.

RE: Run-on Sentences

Quote: Keeping on topic, lawyers can write some the best run on sentences.  They are famous for one sentence paragraphs that take up half a page. EOQ

You should take a look at the Lease for our apartment. One full stop between pages 3 and 27 of a 27 page document. Sheesh.

RE: Run-on Sentences

Definitive proof that Lawyers are absolutely full of a lot of hot air.

soapbox

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Run-on Sentences

That's funny Mike, US lawyers must be a different species to those in Europe. Over here we have very strong evidence that they are full of something distinctly brown in colour. smile
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Run-on Sentences

If you want to see some run-on stuff from lawyers, check out the unenforceable nonsense they insist on adding to corporate emails.  I feel like adding a "Sorry about the crap that follows." to my work sig, but haven't quite got the balls to do it.

- Steve

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