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Not getting sucked into CAD
3

Not getting sucked into CAD

Not getting sucked into CAD

(OP)
Hello all;

My company had a recent round of layoffs. Since I started taking revit, and it is new for us, Im being pulled to help with discipline specific revit projects.

I don't mind, especially in this economy. I have two points I'd like to bounce off the forum.

1) How do I avoid being a CAD guy?

2) How can/will Revit change the way engineering is done?(shop drawing review, specifications, etc.)

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

Which engineering discipline? Revit is for civil/structural. In today's economy, take what you can get for now.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08; CATIA V5
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

There is nothing wrong with being a cad guy who is also an engineer.  It can help marketability both inside and outside the company.  For me - a piping guy, it has helped me to see the constructability of the systems, i.e. how the piping, ductwork, structural and architecture fits.

Revit as it is now helps a lot with phsyical coordination - although for electricals, that is limited to larger conduits and cable trays.  Revit also enables you to circuit and to create schedules - at least that is what it is doing for the electricals here.

Eventually, Revit will enable you to put in smart equipment with all the attributes (voltage, phase, horsepower, etc.)  It will also enable you to put in manufactuer's data as well.  That way the contractor - if he is able to access your model, will be able to pull out the information you put into it.

At least, that is what I have seen  

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

The hazard is becoming an overqualified CAD guy. On the other hand, current engineering openings seem to demand CAD qualifications. Don't buck the trend.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

desnov74,

   I know nothing about Revit.  I am a mechanical guy.  CAD software is attaching more and more intelligence to its files.  Perhaps your world is different.

   We mechies are transitioning from 2D CAD to 3D CAD.  The important difference between 2D and 3D CAD software is that we are moving from a drafting tool to a design tool.  You can closely supervise an AutoCAD operator.  

   With a 3D package like SolidWorks, the person sitting in front of the computer should be capable of making decisions on their own.  If you are handing them sketches, you are making about 90% of the software non-functional.  Placing parametric 3D software in the hands of a low-level, semi-skilled person is not a good idea.

   I do not see a problem with using CAD.  I do see a problem with someone trying to micro-manage a competent 3D CAD person.

               JHG

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I dont see why some are so afraid of being good at CAD...

I just make sure my boss thinkings my engineering skills are slightly better then my Drafting skills... problem solved.

 

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I learned AutoCAD and a little Solidworks - and I am picking up a little Microstation.

Knowing CAD has given me an edge - especially in meetings with other engineers and engineering managers.  I have an idea what can and cannot be easily done in the CAD software packages we currently have - and I know what our CAD technicians capabilities are with each.

It allows me to allocate resources for my projects correctly and efficiently.  Also, with a CAD background, my CAD technicians have more respect for me because I've been "in the trenches" and understand the frustruations with dealing with engineers that do not understand what is involved in making "...just one little change..." or why it took so long to adjust a waterline 6 inches to the north.

Take the experience because you'll never know when it comes in handy.

Just make sure you express to your supervisor that you are still interested in (and quite capable of) fulfilling your role as an engineer.

Good luck.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I do not know Revit, so I can only respond to your first question.

Like you I much prefer engineering work but I have gotten quite proficient in both AutoCad and SolidWorks over the years (mostly self-taught).  For me personally there have been two major benefits:

After the massive layoffs in aviation after 9/11, knowing CAD along with my engineering background helped me find an opportunity to get back to work fast.  How much of it was due to the CAD versue engineering I cannot say but it expanded the openings for which I was qualified.

Like you also, I have a lot of experience in taking the real world in 3D and creating designs that someone can translate into 2D for mfg use.  But being able to model on my own is a plus is when I want to create a sketch to explain a concept to someone who is not that skilled in interpreting 2D sketches. It is very handy to be able to whip out a 3d representation and show them on the screen (or print out an appropriate view) in 3D.

Of course you will want to balance this ability with making sure your boss remembers you are being a good team player but you are not implying you want to be a CAD person for the rest of your career.  But I think you would gain some benefit from some CAD experience.

Anyway, my two cents.  You know your boss and situation much better than I.  Best of success with whatever course of action you choose.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I have some experience using AutoCAD, Solidworks and ProE. I believe all three have helped me during the prototype design stages on most projects.

I think Engineering qualifications and experience coupled with CAD skills is a bonus, so:

Not so much as becoming a CAD guy but I see it as increasing your current skill level as an Engineer.
 

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

FOr me CAD is another way of communicating.  Being good at it also helps me visualize quickly or communicate visually without breaking the bank.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I agree with the posts so far.  CAD experience will make you a more rounded engineer.

I would also suggest getting any manufacturing experience/exposure you can.  Learning first hand what makes something easy/cheap to manufacture or assemble will help you design with that in mind.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I have a question for the younger engineers that is about this topic but slightly OT.  I was in engineering school over 40 years ago and all engineers took one full year of drafting.  They called it "engineering drawing."

That was back when we used pencils and paper, pens and vellum, T-squares and triangles, etc.  As posted above, not many engineers were as accomplished as draftsmen like the professionals who bent over the boards all day long, but we could use the tools to whip out a basic sketch.  And, we could understand what the draftsmen had to do in order to get what we designed drawn up.

What type of drafting (or should I say autocadding if that is a word) is taught to young engineers today.  This thread surprises me a little.

rmw

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I got out of engineering school ~42 years ago.  They assumed that you learned drafting in high school.  I get the impression that high schools are now teaching CAD, so I don't know how anyone learns to make a decent sketch.

Maybe it's not necessary.  Once you get past the learning curve, modern 3D CAD can be pretty fast.

It has to be.  I don't have a staff of lead spreaders.  It's just me and one good designer.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I graduated two years ago and we took one semester of drafting/CAD.  You should have heard the gasps when the prof announced we would be drawing!  

There was a few weeks of orthogonal and T/F/R sketches but the major benefit (and goal?) of that was being able to interpret drawings rather than being proficient at creating them by hand.  The labs were 3D CAD tutorials and there was a group project to create a 3D model.  Most of the people who didn't use CAD beyond this class, as in a student project or similar, were pretty useless at it when graduating.  

As for high school, we did play around in AutoCAD and make a house floor plan but I don't think it was of any real value.  Any drawing was done in art class...

 

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

My experience was similar to Bribyk's.  I graduated 2 years ago.  We had one freshman level course that taught the basics of CAD (it was I-DEAS when I took it, and Solid Edge after that).  There was no drafting, no drawings, just 3D models & assemblies.
I did have a machine design class that the professor would require us to model some stuff for, but for the most part it was very limited.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

Very limited intro to technical drawing in 1st year VI form (high school junior year) using the Acorn equivalent of autosketch or similar for the one or two 'drawings' we had to prepare.

About 4 labs in 1st year of university using 'autosketch', peak of witch was some basic 'descriptive geometry', also one homework assignment on shaft fit tolerances.  The  next year they switched to Autocad, which was great for anyone needing to do some drawings for their project but who'd only learnt autosketch.

Basically I knew almost nothing about engineering drawing and learnt it on the job mostly from some experienced design engineers and old drafters.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

rmw,

   My technologist training was thirty years ago.  I had a semester of "Engineering Graphics", and a semester doing tool design projects.  The drafting training was not rigorous.

   How useful is CAD training to a high school student?  I am thinking back on all the stuff I trained on or learned ten years ago and how much of it I use now.  Very little.  I can run Linux on my home computers because I took a system administration course of Sun Solaris.  I have never had a chance to play with Ansys on the job.  I do not use AutoLISP or plain LISP for anything, and I do not do anything serious with AutoCAD anymore.  I was very good with PordWerfect, but I have no access to it anymore.  I did learn GD&T, and to code HTML with a text editor.

   What kids in school really need is to be literate enough to be able to re-train themselves.  Any practical skills teaching should be done because it is intellectually broadening.  For example, computer programming teaches organization and logic.  These are useful, even though the language they learned will be obsolete by the time they grow up.

   A major problem with CAD is that people do not understand that it is a tool.  We hire tool operators instead of people who know how to do the actual work.  As I noted above, 3D CAD is a design tool, and should be in the hands of a qualified designer.  A kid who learns SolidWorks in grade 10 definitely is a tool operator.

               JHG

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

rmw,

I graduated 2 years ago, I had one class with basic hand drawing/material selection/ how to read drawings.
One class with ACAD, Linux, SUN, EXCEL, and matlab.
One class of just 3D.


I completely agree with drawoh and KENAT, CAD is a tool only as good as the user.  We have a draftsman which neglects basic stuff, then hides behind the "I am not an engineer..." excuse which drives me nuts.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I like to hide behind the "I am not a drafter... " excuse which drives my boss nuts.

BUT I will say that my CAD skills (2D and 3D) are starting to prove very valuable.  I'm getting to be a part of some projects just because I get the gist structurally and can produce models quickly.  Just make sure that your skills as an engineer are equally valuable, if not more, than your drafting skills to advoid getting sucked into CAD.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

(OP)
Wow!! I'm suprised to see this question have such a big response.

I agree with everybody on the point that CAD is important, and that we shouldn't shirk away from it. Technical drawing is essential. I started drafting in a architectural office that wouldn't go to CAD, and our technical drawing teacher was from ye olde school of technical drafting so we did it all by hand. I went on to take more cad courses for the heck of it, and got through college part time and working in various technical jobs full time. Currently, I'm learning and starting to use REVIT.

Anyway, what I feared is turning into reality. I'm taking revit in a regular semester class at nights at a community college, and answering a lot of questions for it at work. But my time ain't billable for it. People are starting to horde work and try to cross disciplines as well to get more hours and look more productive(scarry situation). I don't want to be reduced to a cad jockey, nor do I want to lose my billable hours.   

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

"I don't want to be reduced to a cad jockey, nor do I want to lose my billable hours.   "

hmm, I'm a CAD jockey and i don't want to be reduced to a bill of material clerk, powerpoint presenter or meeting attendee.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

FXjohn,

   The people who read to you the text of the powerpoint slides seem to be very important, for some reason.

               JHG

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

1. How to avoid being "the cad guy".

- When someone comes to your desk, and says "can you help me with this model/etc, I can't get it to work" have the proper response. Something like this typically works:

"I am currently working on this XYZ project, and it is important to finish on time. I can help you once it reaches (xyz stage)." Modeling questions never last multiple days unless they are serious.  

If they are serious, and you are really the only one at the company that can fix it, then after a few days the managers will know about it. Then you will be the person who fixes problems; that is never a bad thing in a bad economy.

In my mind ALL design engineers should know the CAD that the company uses, even companies that have designers (we don't). If someone comes to you for help, it is not because you are the expert, but because they are deficient.

Charles Culp
Design Engineer - Solidworks User

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

"ALL design engineers should know the CAD that the company uses"

Tosh.

It can have advantages but at the same time, I'm pretty sure our 'lead engineer's time is better spent coming up with technical solutions and the like and leaving it to my designer colleague or occasionally me to refine & capture/communicate in CAD.

Now having some appreciation for what the CAD can do and/or being willing to listen to us when we tell them what it can do is more significant.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

from an electrical perspective

if you dont know cad software packages then you better have programming skills, otherwise your no good to anyone in my line of work as a controls engineer.

I have had almost 20 years experience in cad and then went into programming plcs during that same time.  When I am out in the field trying to get a project complete by debugging my software, I wish I would of stayed in the cad world.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

Thinking that the further the manufacturing process goes toward virtual prototyping the more engineers are going to need to 3D cad. It's like a potential loss of translation when you ask someone else to model what you're thinking.

That said I prefer Cad and engineering separate because I'm a drafter and need a job. It's more time consuming in certain aspects but maybe keeping the different disciplines separate provides more specific available expertise due to the potential to concentrate effort.

Engineers are already spread over many different aspects, should one more, sometimes quite complicated aspect, be added to that workload?

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I do a lot of engineering while I am drafting and consider it a good way to work.  On the other hand, I truly love it when I get paired with a gifted draftsperson and together we kick ass on a project.

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

I'm working on a project that the CAD operators are preparing the dwgs for from sketches I made.  The sketches are done the old fashioned way; straight edges, triangles and lettering guides - pencil, not pen and ink, though.  It had some tight tolerancing due to close fits and lots of weld views (not symbols).

We had the opportunity to do a Beta test on our test engine (before the CAD dwgs would be through the approval process) so I had to get a prototype made at a machine shop.  I sent the same sketches over that I had sent to CAD.  I expected them to come back with some questions that would have helped me to give more complete or better instructions to the CAD operators (not located in this country.)

The machine shop sent back a completed piece for our test from my sketches - no questions asked.  Just what I wanted.

One of the kid engineers, a sharp engineer at that, very CAD savvy saw my sketches and seemed impressed.  I guess he hadn't been taught how to draw like that.

I still can't do CAD but I work closely with those that can and direct them every day.

What seems to me to be lacking today is the designer; a person in my previous experience who while not an engineer, knew the machine and how to draw stuff like no engineer could and so that the draftspersons could then detail.

I am having to be the engineer and the designer.  The CAD folks do the drafting and modeling.

rmw

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

From what I saw Civil 3D will eliminate the drafter.  Basically the engineers will need to understand how to use the software and draft their design right in, in real time.  This means only Engineers who can design on the fly will actually be useful if Civil 3D eventually takes off.

My buddy who is starting an architecture firm took a Revit class.  From his description it sounded as though Civil 3D and Revit are meant to work together as one.  I really do think sooner than later a computer drafter will be like a pencil drafter.

I love watching the old school guys take pencil and straight edges and design.  And then watch them knock it out in the computer.

CDG, Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading
http://www.CivilDevelopmentGroup.com

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

HA.  No lie, this just happened to me yesterday!  We got busy and deadlines were looming and the CAD manager pipes up in a meeting, "Hey, don't YOU know AutoCAD???  Couldn't YOU lay out your own designs in AutoCAD???"

sigh.

So, here I am.  Actually, I rather enjoy it.  I continue to make my current salary but I log in my hours for Drafting time - so my budgets doesn't take the hit.  The work is tangible and satisfying as I can see my progress as I complete tasks.  And my Boss is in awe as she doesn't understand (nor can she utilize) any CAD software.  And I am earning the respect of the CAD designers as I'm the only engineer that understands their daily job functions (and frustrations) and - as such - am "in the trenches" with them.

Happy days!

 

RE: Not getting sucked into CAD

my job is CAD trainer for a global company, I train people in 18 of our design facilities on 3 different continents and believe me, in our industry CAD knowledge is essential for virtually everyone involved in the engineering and design of our machines. One of my opening slides has astatement along the lines of "You may be the best enigneer with the best ideas in the company, but if you cannot translate your genius into a 3D CAD model quickly and efficiently, then you will struggle to realize your true potential" We have a drafting faclity in India where there are 90 draftsmen to do the so called donkey work of all the drawings" However, all our brightest and best engineers are CAD super users and wouldn't be as effective as they are if they weren't. You have to have two trains of thought running together 1. what you are going to design to solve the problem. 2. How you are going to use CAD to produce the most efficient design as quickly as possible.

Best regards

Simon NX4.0.4.2 MP10 - TCEng 9.1.3.6.c - (NX6.0.3.6 MP2 native)

www.jcb.com

Life shouldn't be measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the number of times when it's taken away...

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