Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
(OP)
In times of recession Management most usually respond by culling the workforce and they do so in a way that often amplifies their normal attitudes to certain employee characteristics.
For example, age.
However, there have been a number of occasions or crises points where it has been the older employees "who have seen itall before" who appeared batter able to handle both the problem solving and the stress.
But am I wrong in thinking that most employers see old age as a defect rather than a benefit?
If so, then how welcome to see the Hudson Pilot (http://www .telegraph .co.uk/new s/worldnew s/northame rica/usa/4 334428/Hud son-River- jet-crash- pilot-retu rns-home-t o-heros-we lcome.html) is a wrinkly.
I am quite sure many passengers, under normal circumstances, would express an opinion that older pilots are more worrying than younger and mutter something about reflexes.
There is, of course, a saying:
"There are old pilots and there are old pilots but there are no old bold pilots." so an aged pilot ought to be seen as pretty safe and, probably because I am no spring chicken myself, I tend to favour aged wisdom over gung-ho reckless and self-confident youth.
So, how do we stand on age?
Is there justification for regarding older employees as a liability?
In this recession, is your age a factor that makes you concerned for your job security?
How many of you regard retirement age with mixed feelings?
Is engineering a better place for old age than elsewhere - that is, is age differently significant in engineering than in other occupations?
Is our view of old age for the average person unduly coloured by our perceptions of exceptions? For example, most maths genius is evident in the early 20s, it is said. Most sportsmen are at their peak in their youth. But is this a fair way to interpret age as a factor for the bulk of the population?
Is engineering different and if so, how?
For example, age.
However, there have been a number of occasions or crises points where it has been the older employees "who have seen itall before" who appeared batter able to handle both the problem solving and the stress.
But am I wrong in thinking that most employers see old age as a defect rather than a benefit?
If so, then how welcome to see the Hudson Pilot (http://www
I am quite sure many passengers, under normal circumstances, would express an opinion that older pilots are more worrying than younger and mutter something about reflexes.
There is, of course, a saying:
"There are old pilots and there are old pilots but there are no old bold pilots." so an aged pilot ought to be seen as pretty safe and, probably because I am no spring chicken myself, I tend to favour aged wisdom over gung-ho reckless and self-confident youth.
So, how do we stand on age?
Is there justification for regarding older employees as a liability?
In this recession, is your age a factor that makes you concerned for your job security?
How many of you regard retirement age with mixed feelings?
Is engineering a better place for old age than elsewhere - that is, is age differently significant in engineering than in other occupations?
Is our view of old age for the average person unduly coloured by our perceptions of exceptions? For example, most maths genius is evident in the early 20s, it is said. Most sportsmen are at their peak in their youth. But is this a fair way to interpret age as a factor for the bulk of the population?
Is engineering different and if so, how?





RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
On the matter of recession and management decisions, I do have this to say...in periods of good times it is difficult for management or staff to grasp the basic management tenents that transcend one period to another. I speak of succession in the work force. When things get tough it is suddenly on everyone's mind: How will we perservere ahead, who will be our leaders? So this is a time when staff is evaluated for their future contributions and that, unfortunately as it may be, is inherently against the staff who has 35 years of experience and yet is a marginal contributer over the last 5 or so years. It is also firmly against the new employee who has shown a slightly steeper learning curve and has yet to contribute. So in this time both extremes are equally on the cutting block.
Not my philosohy or strategy but my experience over the years....which, of course, makes me a target in management terms unless I conintue to contribute meaningfully.
Regards,
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RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
re: Aegism: I've not seen any prevailing prejudice against Greek engineers.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
When it comes to lay-offs it is perhaps a chance for companies to get the balance right again. Using your analogy of sport most successful teams have a good mix of youth with a sprinkling of old heads in key positions, I do not see engineering as being different.
I am sure we have all seen companies where they only keep on the old guys and they don't move forward a sort of it has always been done that way and we wont change now attitude or it is full of "young stages" constantly locking horns full of good ideas but with no real experience or guidance. Neither tends to do very well.
I guess this is where good managers get it right and only keep people that are key to the success of the company both now and in the future, not just get rid of people because they are too old or young. The problem is we all see ourselves as the best thing since sliced bread, so it is easier to blame the fact that it was because we were too old or young rather than others are better than us.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
My company does not dismiss old people for being old, the oldies just get more choices.
- Steve
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Companies? It describes the UK's entire power generation industry.
There is a whole generation which is almost completely missing from the industry, a result of the denationalisation in the late 1980s followed by the de-manning and minimal recruitment over the following ten years. The guys who are retiring around now are taking a wealth of information with them because there is no one to pass it on to. The companies are slowly waking up to the problem, but too late to repair the damage: there are some bright new graduates with massive potential but little or no experience, but there is a critical shortage of mid-career engineers of roughly my age who should be picking up the reins as the older engineers retire. Things will get much worse in the next few years: I hope Thatcher lives to see the total disaster her short-sighted policies have created. No, sod that, I don't hope that at all: the sooner she embarks on her first-class ride into hell the better.
Most companies in my industry really do value the older guys for the reasons outlined above, to the extent of letting them work on well past retirement age or hiring them back in as consultants when they do retire. It's almost like ageism in reverse!
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
I guess Aegism is the god-like attitude of neglecting to spell check and nothing at all to do with ageism.
Thanks all for being so nice about it.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
JIM
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
There are some gray-haired types who are superstars right up to retirement- and still sharp well into their eighties. But there are some who are fat and complacent already in their 50s. There needs to be a mechanism to get these folks to move on. The voluntary retirement redundancy system does work pretty well when it's used.
I've seen quite a few of the high performers who took early retirement back in their jobs, "double dipping" as consultants while collecting a full pension. Good for them- while it lasts.
We should hold to the mandatory retirement system though too. We can consider increasing the age due to the increased life expectancy, but we shouldn't eliminate the concept entirely. There's pressure already to repeal mandatory retirement rules, and we can expect yet more such pressure as the baby boom generation creeps closer to retirement age.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Similarly, the phrases "old age pensioner" and "senior citizen" mean the same thing (in the UK at least), but don't convey the same sentiments.
What shouldn't great minds continue to do great thinking?
- Steve
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
I have seen Ageism in the workplace, and in the 2 most obvious cases it was ridiculous. The people involved were amongst the most productive & usefull in the place but because the perception was 'they'll be retiring soon' one couldn't get taken on direct (until a change in management happened) and the other got canned at the first opportunity.
Although, it should be said there were other, equally illogical, factors against them. For one reason or another management had taken a dislike to them in addition to the age thing.
In the product documentation world I'd say the older guys have a lot more to offer than most of the youngsters, though this is in part for similar reasons to those Scotty Gives.
KENAT,
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RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
And as msquared48 points out, employers don't want to hire someone who may have only 5 years ahead of them instead of 20. Never mind that *anyone* they employ may job-hop after 3 years, or that they may be laying everyone off again in 3 years, they want LONG-TERM COMMITMENT from whoever they hire, and won't take the person's word for it that they'll stick around.
Hg
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RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Not everyone wants to go, even when it's well PAST their time in some cases.
The difference between voluntary retirement and termination with severance at the end of a career is the issue.
Unless that issue is dealt with for employers, who in their right mind would want to hire anyone beyond 60 or even 55 on staff? Unless employers have a safe exit strategy, you'll see people "grayed" out of their jobs whenever the chance presents itself. This will happen at even more frequency than you see it now- and it's already an appallingly frequent occurrence from what I can see.
The other alternative is to have each employee who wants to stay on past their prime to have their last few years of employment carried out under very serious scrutiny, ultimately ending in disgraceful termination WITH cause to avoid paying severance. Employers keeping a black book on every oldie in the group so they can justify not paying them severance when the time ultimately comes. For a person with many years of service, severance is a very serious amount of money- money that could and should be used to pay the salaries of younger staff who are left behind to do the work.
Voluntary retirement doesn't work for everyone. There are people who don't have a life outside work who will NEVER leave voluntarily.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
That said, there was a similar situation at my wifes employer. They had a lady well into her 70's, who struggled to do her job but wouldn't retire. She'd been offered retirement of one form or another several times but didnt' take it, the job was her social life. They eventually eliminated the position, or she'd probably still be there.
It is certainly harsh to work someone till they're not any anymore but isn't it also harsh to effectively fire someone for reaching some arbitrary mile-stone of years lived?
KENAT,
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RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
But so is metaphorically hauling an employee out into the back pasture to shoot them. Especially one who has a lot of their personal dignity tied up in what they do for a living.
So too is paying someone severance when they should have had the good sense to retire years prior. It's providing a direct financial reward for hanging in there well past your prime- not something I think most firms want to encourage.
A legally mandated arbitrary cut-off for continued permanent employment based on calendar age might actually be less harsh. That's why they were put in place originally- that, and to provide opportunities for advancement for younger generations. There's nothing stopping the firms from bringing back the grizzled vetrans on a consulting basis.
We all have to go at some point. The trouble is, some folks will never admit it, much less will they act on that admission via a voluntary resignation.
Hiring and firing is a fundamentally discriminatory process, ie a process where you discriminate between those you keep and those you throw back (or out). The trick is not to discriminate on the basis of things which have no bearing on job performance. Age represents a serious problem in that regard. While it may appear utterly arbitrary, what's probably at issue first with an ageing employee is productivity per unit salary, long before it becomes an issue of basic competence. That's what the bean counters are heading off at the pass at every lay-off opportunity- and that's hardly fair either is it?!
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
I believe that one should not do to someone else that which he does not want done to himself.
More simplistically, what goes around, comes around.
But then, who said this system of things is perfect. To expect perfection is not human. So we can all expect this inequity to persist ad infinitum.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Some people seem to get married to certain way of doing things and are thus very reluctant to budge. That probably gets worse with age, but younger people can be that way also. If it becomes too pronounced among the older workers, then it is one problem I can see with keeping the older generation in charge for too long. The company can fall behind if the technology is evolving. I hear old engineers often say that there are "no new ideas in engineering" or that "engineering doesn't really change".
Maybe what they really mean is "just give up trying to think of anything and trust what we say so we can look good".
Well - at some point in time, every idea was a new idea.
Tangentially, I think that old and young people have a large difference in attitude towards working for a given company. Many of the older engineers somehow feel that you owe your life to the first company you join and should be happy to take whatever they deign to give you. Maybe this is a holdover from feudalism, somehow engrained into people's genetic structure after generations of serfdom. I don't know. Younger workers can be just as bad on the other side - expecting the company to set up all kinds of social events and special arrangements for them.
My personal feeling is that you just can't expect all people to see the world the same way you do and to share all your values. Other people are busy pursuing their own diverse interests, a company has its own interests, and you have yours. They won't all come into perfect alignment except maybe during a national emergency.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
The first company I joined had a large proportion of "man an' boy" types very set in their ways and with the "if it were good enough for me da then its good enough for me" attitude.
I think this was the transition period. Freedom to travel came much later to the UK than the USA as car ownership only slowly trickled down to the post war masses. Until then most travelled by bus, train or bicycle. Hence, I suggest, part of the reason for the long term employees.
The engineering department was very small and most of the guys hadn't had an original thought in decades (except for the chief engineer who had original thoughts (for him) about the receptionist.
What had management to do with anything? Well, they didn't want to invest money. Not in anything.
When management get like this they set in train a range of Darwinian forces; the one they actually know about and exploit a lot is the one to reduce the workforce to minimum size; they call it natural wastage. This means that you actually tend to concentrate all the slow thinkers into your workforce because all those with ambition and ability and a need for a decent salary find a natural instinct drives them to get jobs elsewhere.
But, if we have ongoing investment in new products and things happen then the engineering team has to be bigger and has to be brighter. They are dealing with new products and new problems all the time. Now the forces at play are different and innovation pays off. With ongoing investment experience counts. With new investment, the tendency is to build up departments with lots of young engineers (this is happening in a new company I am consulting with at the moment).
Of course, we can approach this as if there is a logical thinking process behind recruitment and retention policies. I think too often that management policy is informed not by logic or reason but by cliche and hence it isn't the long winded story about the old bull and the new bull that influences but pithy statements like "You can't teach an old dog new tricks."
Short and sharp no one ever questions the truth of such sayings.
Maybe we need to come up with something similar that says old is best?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
I'm not sure how things fare over on the design side, but in the field, there is a massive generation gap that several of the larger EPC companies haven't even attempted to fill. Much of this can be attributed to the fact that younger generations have a significantly diminished involvement in the trades. Because the site/project managers are so frugal with who they bring on board, they don't want to put forth the time and money to train college kids with no field experience. In the next 3-5 years, the poop is really going to hit the fan as a result of this reluctance.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Businesses didn't hire fresh grads 10-15 years ago, and then bitch and whine about a shortage of candidates with 10-15 years experience the minute the market improves even a bit...
Twenty years of recessions taught them that it was no longer necessary to hire young, train and retain. And they learned.
Getting rid of mandatory retirement is just enabling them in this unwise behavior by providing them a means to avoid hiring even in GOOD economic times, when they SHOULD be hiring young folks and fresh immigrants too.
That's all a moot point now that there's another recession on- and this one looks like it's going to be a doozie. Businesses will once again slip into old patterns, having experienced candidates lining up for every advertised position. People at either extreme of age or experience level will find themselves squeezed out of the job market- again.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Sure, we can see all the usual behaviour, cutting back on overheads, one employee doing three peoples jobs for the same money he/she got before delayed or cancelled pay rises; cut back on advertising and R&D, a focus on selling existing products; in other words, "end-of-the-month" survival mode with all "extraneous" and future based activity cutback.
Did I forget something? oh yes, all those extra meetings so you can't of your work because you're in boring meetings discussing how you will get by, all those extra reports with extra details so management can look busy and determined.
The point is, how do older folk normally fare in such times and how could it be different? do Older folk have a more vital role to play in these times or less?
Some of the points about recruiting graduates etc are very pertinent because they are forward based decisions. I would guess that in a recession is the best time to recruit, at bargain basement prices, experienced employees, no training required and nothing beyond managing production that requires too much innovation anyway since everything is geared to established product rather than new. Of course, when times get better (funny how companies never like to admit to their employees that times are better, it encourages them to want more money) what happens then?
But is this the case? is this a pattern we might expect or is there another pattern to be seen?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Down: watching a Recruitment agent who appeared to be 19 explaining how he puts himself in his clients place and says they don't want old folks.
Up: Young people use one hemisphere of the brain, old people use both hemispheres!
So, have a look here:
http://w
and for the USA perspective:
h
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Experienced eyes are essential to pick up mistakes.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
corus
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
The opening statistics were not so surprising, the significant differences between the number of young people becoming unemployed compared to old people was the one we expected; the old are the natural targets.
But after that it was indeed not just that old people took less sick days than young people but that the accepted view was the opposite.
I think that is half of the problem. Too many "can't teach an old dog new tricks" types of unchallenged and false beliefs makes old people natural and apparently justifiable targets.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
My French is a bit rusty (and more Cajun than Parisian), but I think that should be C'est la vie, c'est guerre.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
1. The seasoned engineer:
a. Indirect costs (primarily health insurance) is a driver for small companies. Not so much for the medium to large firms.
b. Are higher direct costs offset by technical skills, opening of new market opportunities, prospect of new clients from candidate contacts and efficiencies from self starting of seasoned candidate.
c. Has candidate kept up computer skills.
d. How does basic personality type fit into the current team mix. (Seasoned candidates tend resist modifications of behavior and attitudes toward younger peers.)
e. Is candidate willing to mentor younger peers.
2. The less experienced engineer:
a. Will candidate remain stable for at least 3 years
b. How much emotional support will candidate require. (how many trophies do they need to remain happy)
c. Does basic personality type fit in the current team. (Younger candidates tend to have something to prove - sometimes a good thing sometimes not)
d. What level of technical skill has the candidate actually acquired, compared to what is claimed they can do.
e. Is the candidate a critical thinker or do they blindly accept accept direction.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
http://www.patinasolutions.com/
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Large companies don't have a problem with that, but small companies are more inclined to come out and say they are looking for 'young guys' rather than hiring a middle-aged female. Sometimes I wonder if interviewing me fulfills some kind of EEOC diversity reg for the company.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
http://www
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
I mean, all those early years at $/£200 a month to the later years at $/£2000 a month.... and just how important are the contributions during the very last years of working life?
I'd be interested to see if any studies have been done that determine the relative importance of later contributions to earlier. It would seem to me that the old are far more vulnerable than the young in this respect.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
So how many's that? If a thousand million is a (modern/US) billion, and the population of the Earth is somewhere under 7 billion then it would appear this isn't just a world-wide recession it's inter galactic.
Or then he mean 'of' as in divide by, in which case I don't see what all the fuss is about.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
The problem is in industry very little history is written down so the same mistakes happen about every 20 years.
At issue with recession job loss, it seems to be only in some sectors, and levels, while others seem to be going as fast as they were before. And again it may be just the specilist industries.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
...and I spewed coffee all over my screen in laughter!
"Consulting" is a very big world, obviously!
I've seen plenty of slackers providing valuable services as "billing units", while generating little if any useful productivity. The EPC contractors around here hire hundreds of drones to occupy cubicles during boom times, and promptly lay them off again when the cash cows dry up.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
You are either training a new guy, or they don't care if they meet your standards.
A few, just a few are really very good though.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Today, you're lucky if you can keep a job for more than three or four years due to downsizings, mergers, acquistions, global competition, outsourcing, etc. Since companies now seem more fixated than ever on getting the most bang for their buck, if and when they hire new employees, they want people who will work for less and do more. This pretty much excludes older workers who are stereotyped as being slow to learn new things, not being tech-savvy, having more health issues, being complacent, not being "team players," and wanting too much money.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Consultants wear suits and charge fees to lay people off.
Contractors occupy cubes in fat times.
Consulting Engineers add value, insight and experience.
The company I've been working for for most of my working life is the third kind, although I'm no longing in technical consulting. We employ dozens of oldies and they bring experience and maturity to the party. Some of these guys are legends in their fields.
- Steve
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Sort of infurrating to those of us who have to fix the newbee mistakes, and they get paid for it.
The problem is there are so few oldies to teach the newbees, and the field just dosen't seem to attract people like high tech.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
Besides many of then still have there contacts in other companies.
The gas people don't do this, but it appears they have a full staff. We just can't find the people on the electric side.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
And some just want to get away from there wives for a few hours each day.
Many actually like it better because they are outside much of the internal politics.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?
However there are more inroads to filling the distribution engineer, linemen and project engineer positions.
RE: Aegism - is it time to give old age a chance in the workplace?