INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Jobs

European Address in ISO Cert

European Address in ISO Cert

(OP)
I've recently been asked to acquire ISO Certs from our vendors that have a European address (of the certifying body) on them.  Is this something that other people are being asked to do??  

Having the certifying body provide me with a list of their world-wide offices has been rejected.  I've been told that a valid PED ISO Cert must have a Euopean address on it.  

Is this correct, or am I being jerked around?

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

I assume that the PED certificater is for one of the module in the PED directiv - If so - The certifying body needs to be Notified body and pressent on the list made by EU
 (link:http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/newapproach/legislation/nb/en97-23-ec.pdf )
The CE no. refers to the notified number on this list. If they are present on this list, then the PED certificate and the notified bodys number will be suficient. By the way, who is asking for it?

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

(OP)
Thanks for the reply.  I'm not very experienced with PED, that is why I am asking questions here.  I'm having a hard time finding consistent answers.  Let me explain my situation and maybe you can guide me.  Here is my most recent dilemna.

I purchased pipe fitting from Both-Well Steel.  They are ISO certified by Bureau Veritas.  Hartford (HSB) is our governing body, (is that our Notified Body?).  HSB tells us what is sufficient and what is not.  

BV's ISO cert for Both-Well Steel has a Taiwan address at the bottom of ISO Cert.  HSB is telling us that the ISO Cert for Both-Well must have BV's European address (France) on the bottom of this ISO Cert for it to be PED acceptable.  The BV contact here in the US cannot issue me a Both-Well ISO Cert with the French address.  BV Taiwan gave me a letter stating they have headquarters in France, but this letter mentions an Audit Number, NOT the ISO Cert. number, so HSB will not accept this.  

BV Taiwan and Both-Well have been hesitant to issue me an ISO Cert with this French address as well.  I have been unable to get BV Taiwan to re-issue me this same letter stating BV's headquarters in France, but mentioning Both-Well's ISO Cert number, instead of an Audit Number.  

So, my main questions are:  

A.)  Is this European address on the bottom of Both-Well's ISO cert really necessary??  

B.)  Is it really necessary to have a letter from BV, which mentions Both-Well's ISO Cert number on a letter indicating that BV's headquarters are in France??

C.)  I have a PED certificate issued by BV for Both-Well steel for pipe fittings.  However, this PED cert for pipe fittings also mentions this same Audit Number, and NOT Both-Well's ISO Cert number.  HSB is telling me this ISO Cert. is not acceptalbe as well.  If it had Both-Well's ISO Cert. number on it, it would be.

Your comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
 

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

I will tri as good as I can!

The demand for the material certificate is that there has to be a Qualit system approval. PED Annex 1 - 4.3
There is NOwere in PED or in the guideline that says that quality approval also need to be by a notyfied Body.
It also don´t say that the steelproducer need to be approved by NB. The demand is that the material need to be according to EU harmonized stadard.
If I were you: I would ask HSB were they have this demand from. (in PED) or better change to BV

RH

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

(OP)
So, why would my NB require ISO Certs from my supplier with the certifying body's European address on the Cert??

Does PED guidelines state that PED Certs MUST note the ISO Cert's number??   

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

Hi again

Re. So, why would my NB require ISO Certs from my supplier with the certifying body's European address on the Cert??

I don´t know - If The material certificate, indicate BV and the Quality Certificate (ISO9001) are valid and pressent  There are no need for it - There are no guideline saying this
(se PED guideline http://www.tukes.fi/en/Toimialat/Pressure-equipment/)
As I can see Both-Well Steel Have both ISO 9001 and PED approving, what module it is, I can not see - But from my experians they probely have CE0062 as Notified No. This mean that this is HQ in La Defance in Paris. (Is OK)

Again as I say -ask HSB why and where this is stated in the directive.

RH

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

(OP)
I just off the phone with HSB, and they pointed me to Guideline 7/2.  So, I looked it up and here is what Note 3 says:

Note 3:  The certificate of quality system shall make reference to the legal entity established in the Community and its address.

It appears that the European address must be on the ISO Certificate.  That's what the rule reads to me.  

I wonder by BV won't issue me an ISO cert of Both-Well with their French address on it??

 

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

(OP)
I forgot to add this to my previous post.....

So, it's strange that I have a PED cert for the manufacturing of steel fittings from Both-Well, but I can't get a European address on Both-Well's ISO Cert.  

So, in this case, HSB states they would like to see all my certs, and make a decision.  I'll update this forum once I get more answers from HSB.

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

Guidelines are no mandatory requirements.  But the PED contains a similar requirement:  
PED Annex I Para. 4.3
"The equipment manufacturer must take appropriate measures to ensure that the material used conforms with the required specification.
In particular, documentation prepared by the material manufacturer affirming compliance with a specification must be obtained for all materials.
For the main pressure-bearing parts of equipment in categories II, III and IV, this must take the form of a certificate of specific product control.
Where a material manufacturer has an appropriate quality-assurance system, certified by a competent body established within the Community and having undergone a specific assessment for materials, certificates issued by the manufacturer are presumed to certify conformity with the relevant requirements of this section."
Thus not only a European address should appear on the ISO 9000 certificate, but also a declaration, that a specific assessment for materials was part of the evaluation.
 

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

Shulbert,

It is a very frustrating situation, and I have long wondered what the purpose of ISO 9001 is for if you cannot use it equally from any country. I have worked for TUV and HSB both, in ASME and PED applications here in the USA, and the situation is that HSB's notified body (HSB International, located in Germany) is forced by their auditors and regulators to require this. HSB allowed what you are talking about, and also ISO "equivalency" agreements in the past, but it simply won't fly with the EU. Nobody likes it on this side of the Atlantic, believe me. While it is true that the Guidelines are not part of the legally binding directive, they are the unaminous opinion of the working group for that type of pressure equipment, and since the PED is a law and not a standard, the Guidelines carry a great deal of weight.  

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

Quote:


Nobody likes it on this side of the Atlantic, believe me.

That isn't true.

Take care, the requirements in Germany are different to other parts of the EU and have been the subject of much discussion, I have even put in a formal complaint to CEN about the restrictions placed on vessels not produced to AD-2000 that I believed introduced a restriction to trade which is illegal once a Directive is in place. The German interpretation has, on occasions, been different.

Quote:


certified by a competent body established within the Community and having undergone a specific assessment for materials

Requires that the body is established within the Community, it doesn't necessarily mean that the address on the certificate should be in the EU. AS far as I have ever been able to work out if the body has a registered address in the EU that is sufficient. I could however be wrong.

Personally I would contact someone in person at CEN and get a decision on this.

In the UK I have often called the DTI for clarification.


 

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

Fawkes,

Not sure why you say "That isn't true" about my statement about nobody liking the policy on this side of the Atlantic, because you go on to make my case. By the way, I am talking about the USA side of the Atlantic, not the European side. The policy is a hardship and a hassle for US manufactures sending pressure equipment to the EU.

Fawkes wrote:
Requires that the body is established within the Community, it doesn't necessarily mean that the address on the certificate should be in the EU.

Well, if "established within" doesn't mean you're physically there, I am not sure what it means. I would love to see a ruling like you describe, but I have clients who tried to get ruling from the EU, CEN, and have had no luck at all.

What the Germans like to do is put in-service restrictions on certain PED equipment, depending on what standard it meets. They cannot reject CE marked new product, but the PED does not address in-service, so each country can play their own little game to make it harder to send equipment there.

I doubt if the current worldwide economic struggles are going to help things, most countries are getting pressure from citizens to keep jobs home and import less, where possible.

RE: European Address in ISO Cert

Established within certainly means that you have a registered office in the community, but you can also have offices elsewhere, I don't see it meaning that the address registered in the community has to be on the certificate, if I was to receive a certificate with an address not in the community and yet the body identified could prove that they had a registered office I would accept that as complying.

The PED does address in-service as it is aimed at removing restrictions to trade and putting in-service restrictions is putting restrictions to trade on equipment that meets all necessary safety standards, the whole point of a harmonised system is that we have already agreed what is acceptable and as such the code is not relevant only complying with the ESR, that is why there is such a loud complaint about what they are doing.

You're absolutely right about countries imposing legislation to protect their own industry at the present.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources


Close Box

Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

Register now while it's still free!

Already a member? Close this window and log in.

Join Us             Close