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Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly
22

Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

(OP)
Hi everyone.

I kind of have an awkward situation right now. Don't know if I actually have a situation or I should just loosen up, in fact.

I'm close to one senior engineer from a previous job; he was very helpful when I was working with him previously and we're both working our postgraduate thesis at the same faculty on part time basis. So now I see him every weekend at the lab for discussion with our two lecturers. And of course we're in the same industry and him being very knowledgeable makes him a useful contact.

I used to be okay with him because he was sort of a big brother to me. He's about 15 yrs my senior, married and I'm on great terms with his lovely wife. But lately he's being a bit too friendly and eventhough I said no to his outing invitations all the time he just doesn't notice that he's making me uncomfortable. I doubt he's being like this on purpose; he's a bit on the geeky and socially-awkward side.

Say you're the senior engineer, how would you like to be gently explained that your junior would like you to stop asking her to hang out on weekends?

At least, I'd like him to stop asking me out for a swim everytime we finish lab... I told him every single time that I don't find the idea of looking at him in skimpy spandex particularly appealing, but he would just say that's because I haven't seen how good he looks in them.

Plus he's been asking me out for a movie lately, and the last time was half an hour ago in an email.

Maybe I should stop being a prude?
jo

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Okay...a guy asked you to go out for a swim and then to movie and your wondering if your misreading the situation?  Are you serious? Clearly you have a situation - no question, in fact I find it odd that you even have to ask.

Anyway, I think you may be past being nice. This is a married man that's making un-welcome advances to a junior co-worker. But I suppose could try this:

 -Absolutely do not hang out with him in any social setting.
 -Do not initiate any conversation with him you don't have too.
 -No joking around, he's misinterpreting it.
 -No Small Talk.
 -If your in relationship, flaunt it.  
  
If he still does not get it, you may need to be more direct.  As in, "Hey Listen Senior Engineer, your a nice guy, but I just not interested in you that way, but I still want to be friends..."   




        

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

"I told him every single time that I don't find the idea of looking at him in skimpy spandex particularly appealing"

That light-hearted style of response sends out an ambiguous message.

Be blunt, tell him you don't think it's appropriate that you go swimming/movies/etc with him.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

(OP)
apsix (Structural) 15 Jan 09 0:57
 
"I told him every single time that I don't find the idea of looking at him in skimpy spandex particularly appealing"

That light-hearted style of response sends out an ambiguous message.

Be blunt, tell him you don't think it's appropriate that you go swimming/movies/etc with him.  
_____________________________

Actually I did not say that in a joking manner. I was frowning and said that in a serious tone. Except that he still thought I was joking and laughs it off every time.

Thanks for answering my post. It's really hard for me to figure out what my colleagues mean when they say something. I usually find myself the only female in various work settings and have had to tolerate a lot of off-color jokes/banter. As long as they were not directed at me or meant to disparage women they didn't bother me.

I was afraid of it all being 'just in my head' and don't want to be rude unnecessarily .

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

hey mzzjoey

Obviously you are a really nice person.  At the risk of sounding like a pessimist: anytime a man makes advances (verbally or otherwise) and you do not abrubtly "close the door", he may very well think the game is on.

You need to let him know you are in a relationship, and your new SO does not approve of you frolicking in the pool with a horny nerd.
Seriously, be blunt but tactful.

Hope this helps


The sun never sets. It is we who rise & think to shine.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Start dating one of the lecturers.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Tell his wife!

cheers

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

2
mzzjoey,

The combination of guy, engineer, and "geeky and socially-awkward side" means he does not understand the hints.

It may be awkward and uncomfortable for you, but you need to flat-out tell him you do not want a relationship with him, you do not see him that way, you are looking for someone younger.  Tell him you see him as a brother.

Some of us old, geeky and socially-awkward engineers need to be told with no grey areas.  

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

I also think that you should begin documenting all of this, but don't share it with HR until it gets intolerable. Wait and see if your coworker gets tired of flirting and backs off on his own. No, you shouldn't be the subject of repeated unwanted flirting after you've made it clear where you stand, which I believe that you have.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

I dropped my TV in the pool, want to catch a movie? smile

Be blunt with him and use correct words in your dealings with him, such as "inappropriate" and "unprofessional".  Let him know that you would rather only have work-related relations with him.  Let him know that you are serious, and any further unwanted comments will be brought to HR's attention.

There is a co-worker here, she complains about another that makes unwanted romantic comments towards her.  She and others she has told think it is "cute" and "disgusting" in a lighthearted manner, they think it is funny and is a cause for a good ribbing when she complains.  I don't see how or why she put's up with it.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Not exactly the same, but I've got a (very attractive) co-worker who told a story while at a party about how she used to love to run around naked... then complained at another party about how people kept asking her whether she was going to get naked.  The second time, she painted herself as the innocent victim...
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Obviously you two have had some type of working/personal relationship for awhile.  So I don't think it necessary to start threatening to go to hr and all of that.

Every time he asks just ask if his wife is going to join you.  He should probably get the message.

Or just stay away from him.   

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Every time he asks just ask if his wife is going to join you.  He should probably get the message.

he'll get A message... not sure it'll be the right one.  One answer might be "of course not, she'd get in our way!"

 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Not sure how going to HR is going to help, given that it is quite clear in the OP that they don't work together (anymore).

mizzjoey, it seems to me that you're worried about losing the "useful contact" if you say anything to this guy.  He might react quite well to a blunt "let's just be friends", but he could also refuse to help you in the future.

Only you can gauge whether it is worth the unwanted attention in order to keep this guy as a contact, or "risk" losing the professional support that he presumably provides.

I know what I'd do, and it seems to me that you already know your appropriate course of action.

Cheers,
CanuckMiner

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Quote:

"I told him every single time that I don't find the idea of looking at him in skimpy spandex particularly appealing"

I you think this is ambiguous, you are denser than Mr. Sad Senior.

The only reason he hasn't gotten the message is because he doesn't want to get the message.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Tell him flat out. I flirt a lot (cultural part I guess) and, more often than not I do get the subtle hints, but when I don't I appreciate a falt out (but polite) "stop it"!
Now, I have no intentions other than the fun of it. They all know my wife and girls and my wife knows my ways too. But if a girl finds it uncomfortable, I appreciate the cold water bucket before screwing up a good work/friend relationship

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

9

I will assume that you want to maintain a cordial relationship with this man.  Here's my advice, based on what I learned in a Non-violent Communication seminar.  Look up NVC on Wikipedia for more detailed information.

First, give him your non-judgmental observation.  "I have noticed that you keep asking me to accompany you to the pool, movies, restaurant.  I interpret these as a request for a date and a more intimate relationship."  The advanced seminar would have you add at this point, "I was wondering if I have misinterpreted these requests."

Then tell him how this makes you feel.  You might want to review "jackal words" before deciding what you say.  "I value you as a friend, however this makes me feel uncomfortable."   A big point (for me at seminar) was not to expand too much on your feelings and never, ever justify having them.

Then express what it is that you need.  "I need to feel safe when I am around others."

Then make a request.  A small note here.  Telling someone to stop doing something is not a request in NVC-world.  They must be allowed to make either or any choice without fear of reproach.  You must ask for something that is a real OPTION for the other party.  This is also the part of the training that I sucked at, but I'll try my best.
"I was wondering if you could honor my need to be in a safe environment by not continuing to ask me to these things."

The basis of the training is to see the other person's side with empathy and not with judgment.  He finds you attractive and sympathetic.  He is willing to risk his marriage.  Perhaps his home relationship is bad and he's just looking for a pretty face to share his experiences with, etc.  Perhaps his wife was recently diagnosed with terminal cancer.


 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

4
As another woman:

Use "I" words:  "I feel uncomforable." "I don't like this."
Be clear:  "No." "I'm not interested in a personal relationship with you."  "I do not want to spend personal time with you."
Set boundaries: "I value your expertise and look forward to continued a cordial working relationship."
Set consequences: "I would hate to have to stop talking to you as I enjoy the professional interaction, but I will not tolerate further requests to spend time together.  If necessary, I will inform the faculty."

Do NOT say that you want to be his friend, that you think of him as a brother or anything else that implies any sort of personal relationship.

Do NOT justify your own personal relationships.  Whether you're seeing someone, married, divorced, or totally single DOES NOT MATTER!

Do NOT worry that he is lonely, socially inept, that his wife might not understand him or that you might hurt his feelings.  While all of those might be true, they are NOT your problem to solve.  They also unfortunately are convenient words that some people use to justify cheating (or, worse, stalking).

Be prepared to inform your lecturers if he still continues.  They have an obligation to provide a safe environment.

And realizing that the majority of people reading this are male:  This advice also works in the other direction.  

Patricia Lougheed

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Star for cass simply for having a well-reasoned reply.

Still, it sounds like "how women think that men think", not how men in this state actually think.  Give it a try.  If Mr. Sad Senior is reasonably sane, it ought to work.  If not... time for the harp seal approach.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Cass, star for you from me too.
Politeness can actually be a much harder hit than rudeness. Much more effective. (and it had to be a woman with the best answer on this, go figure. That's why we men marry; in a futile attempt to improve the species. Which we can only achieve when we have daughters.... if ours at all...)

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Ladies, excellent textbook responses, but if its as bad as you say, do you think he'll really get it?

I'd suggest,

"Look bud, ain't no way in hell this is going anywhere past your overactive imagination, so shut it down .. and now.  You with me on this?"  <while flashing lazer pointer across his chest>

Wait 3 seconds for a forthcoming "Uh-ha", reprompt as necesary, then break into some heavy shop talk.


 

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic  (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Great response Cass - well worth a star.

Mizzyjoe

I was wanting to say - Perhaps he has problems and sees you as someone to confide in - but I did not want to come across as a old boar/bore (which I may or not be) by sticking up for the senior.

Also perhaps he has perceived you has having a problem and would like to discuss it.

You would get a warmer reception and be able to continue your relationship if you follow Cass's advice. If it still continues, a few choice four letter words would probably put an end to it all.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly


Thanks for all the stars!  I wish the instructor in the NVC seminar was as generous with my responses.  

Something else I would like to add is that Mr. Senior's motivation for asking her on various 'dates' is unimportant.  My response is based on the initial assumption that Mizzjoey would like to remain in a mentor/pupil relationship with this man.  If she can get across to him that she does not want a different kind of relationship, without making either one of them feel defensive or coerced, then the relationship is unharmed.

This isn't just something that comes out of the "How Women Think Men Think" manual.  It's really is about preserving an established relationship.  Forget Mr. Senior for a moment.  How will Mizzjoey feel if she says something to hurt Mr. Senior?  My guess is that she will feel terrible, based on her ambivalence about her own reaction to his requests.  She might get him to stop asking her on dates, but she creates tension that will forever cloud their future interaction.

How Mr. Senior thinks isn't even important.  He is obviously trying to fill a need of his own and Mizzjoey is uncomfortable with filling that role. To lose the mentor/pupil relationship would be a true loss for Mizzjoey.

A 'need' in this context is a universal human need that when expressed, is universally accepted.  "I need to feel safe" is a universal need.

BTW, I would not do this via email.  This should be face-to-face.  Go out for coffee after one of the labs and talk to him.  And be straight forward about it.  Don't expect him to 'pick up' on your discomfort.  Tell him "I am uncomfortable."  Don't tell him that the thought of seeing him in a Speedo is repulsive.  That would be cruel to someone who has been kind to you.

 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Cass and vpl have the approach that should be right 99% of the time.  I do agree with what they say about owning one's feelings.

However, it seems likely Mr. Senior's behavior is more than just awkward.  He's got an itch he wants to scratch.  A married man who is that persistent in his quest for date-like companionship has not got his head on straight.

Such attachments rarely go down quietly against refusal, even the kindest, most rational refusal.  Be prepared, for you may still lose everything, even if you do everything right.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

I thought we went through this.  No coffee.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic  (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

2
Two very valuable contributions from Cass and Pat but I have to concur with BigInch and the Tick (MHO: the "harp seal" solution has greater attraction than teasing him with a laser pointer unless it is an industrial laser for cutting sheet metal and you might want to rethink the suggested target zone).

On the plus side, such situations cause endless amusement for the other workers/colleagues ... unless/until they get caught up in it (as I did once, I was an easier target for HR as not having rhinoceros skin and innocent anyway, they just wanted to make an example of someone).

From various places I used to work:
Situation 1: Meek and mild engineer puts move on attractive receptionist.
Move appreciated.
Wife finds out and built up enough head of steam to come to the factory to raise hell (what her husband thought is not recorded).
She raised hell.  
Great entertainment for all others (groundhog event) but R & J had both gone into hiding.
Management not amused.

Situation 2: Lecherous sales engineer (not a sad senior but young and brash, self diagnosed god's gift) puts move on young (attractive) lady office manager.
Move not appreciated.
"When a lady says no she means yes" philosophy at work.
Throughout the following years (yes, years) others variously entertained while also sympathetic but did not appreciate the full extent of the problem created due to the lady trying her best at different times, to be "one of the lads", to accept a bit of "banter", to treat it like a joke, to "not let it get to her" etc. but on occassion it would get too much and "exit stage left, pursued by bear" i.e. flee in tears to the ladies.

She went through the full range of options including as recommended above.

She then got HR involved, for all the good it did because both stopped short of the full penalties offered by the laws on sexual harassment and HR just picked on innocents like me.

He, skin like a rhinoceros carried on unabashed and seemed indifferent to the problems/grief caused. On the odd occasion he caused her to flee to the ladies he thought it a joke.

To her regret his sales figures meant that management vetoed the harp seal solution and kept opting for the "warnings".

Situation resolved when he finally found a new job (one presumes that some other lady in some other company is now going through exactly the same hell).

Of course, when I say resolved I mean that the great white was gone but still plenty of lesser species swimming around.

So, some blokes don't find a problem chasing anything in a skirt no matter how many wives and kiddies at home.
No amount of tears, or HR warnings affects their behaviour and the harp seal approach often not available (some objection to a good clubbing?).

Ultimate solution may be one or the other must leave or insist on full rigour of sexual harassment laws which, dependent on where you are, can have some bite.

Now then, Mizzjoey, if it goes on long enough it will change from being something amusing to something of a nuisance. You will find there is a limit to what you can take.
If you do not want years of this misery, set a time table to solve the problem. Set some gaols.
Be ready to escalate on schedule from slapped wrist to industrial laser and no qualms, no Stockholm syndrome.... be ready to go to the fullest extent of the law. Treat it like a project

It is no good taking each day as it comes because you will keep on putting of the day and just extend your misery.

No second chances, no trying again.
If you take an action that should produce a result with a reasonable person, and it doesn't work, move to the next stage and if that involves penalties, invoke them. Do not be fooled.
If necessary, tell him what you will do and when. Tell him it is up to him and having told him, never ever back down.

With a reasonable person once you have spoken it should be enough. So, ask your self how long you will permit for this to continue till the situation is resolved? a week, a month?
 
No battered wives syndrome either.... once you press charges, do not drop them.
The consequences are not your concern.
It is his problem and his consequences.
Let's face it, unless he gets his act together his marriage is in trouble anyway and if not you then someone else.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Just look him in the eye, and say, in a nice, pleasant manner, 'Look, I don't know where you're trying to go with all this, but I'm just not interested.  Let's keep our relationship professional.'

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

For several years, I have this situation with a wonderful engineer who I consider my greatest mentor.  He is married and also about 15 years older than me.  I just do almost exactly as TenPenny suggested.  When I said this the first time the flirtations stopped, but he has needed a couple of boosters over the years.    

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Regardless of his intentions, in my opinion at least, a married man asking another woman to a movie is crossing the line.   

 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

(OP)
I gave Cassie, vpl and graybeach stars for understanding my situation perfectly! Thanks cass/vpl for your suggestions. Man, I wish I were sent to some communications course similar to yours; then I wouldn't be so scared of telling some people that they're crossing a line. I'm not good at confrontation :)

Yes, this senior has been a very good mentor and of course, now that we are working together closely in our small group in the faculty I do not wish to create a situation that will affect others as well. I simply want him to stop the requests and continue working together. As of now, I'm simply ignoring his calls, text messages and emails that are not related to lab stuff. I'll go through Cass and vpl's suggestions and see what might work best.

Tickle also got a star for highlighting something I haven't thought of. It's true I'm going through a rough patch with my fiancee and this might have given this senior the idea that he has to cheer me up. That said, I still don't know on which side his intentions lie.

As for TheTick's suggestions that I go for the lecturers... LOL. They're married to each other! big smile

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

(OP)
Hey cass,

Just an idea, but you might want to write an FAQ on this Non Violent Communication thing. I'm sure there are many 'socially-awkward' engineers out there who will appreciate it, myself included smile

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Tell him that that you would go swimming, along with his wife. Go to the movies, along with his wife. A commitment was made before you met, and that was between he and his wife. If he is not interested in fulfilling those commitments, then I would not otherwise trust him. Being socially awkward is one thing, being in a socail situtation with someone of the other sex other than your wife is another.

For those that do not know the difference, a wife (of husband) is not a "significant other"; that apparition could as well apply to your son's date for the middle school dance. I would not trusy anyone that is married to go for a swim, or any person that refers to their marital partner as a "significant other".

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

mauricestoker
The definition of words or phrases in the English language cannot be dictated by one person's perceptions.
Have you also re-defined 'apparition'?  

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Maurice,

Interesting viewpoint. I guess I can add 'untrustworthy' to my already extensive list of other sins. Why? I've a couple of female friends who I've known since we were kids who I still end up in 'social situations' with. I couldn't imagine dating either of them any more than I could imagine dating a sister, but we'll maybe go to see a band we like play (my wife doesn't share all my musical tastes, nor I hers) or perhaps just go for a drink a couple of times a year to catch up. I'm very grateful to have a female friend who I trust completely and who will give me an honest opinion when I ask it. She's probably done as much to hold my marriage together of late as anyone I know, although she likely doesn't realise it. To me that's immensely valuable.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

As Homer Simpson would suggest, just say two words 'I am gay'.  

corus

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Scotty,
I like to think it is the same with me, that I can have women friends, platonic relationships and that it is OK.

And yet, I remember when Harry met Sally:
Harry Burns to Sally Albright:

Quote:

You realise we can never be friends.
You can get the rest at:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098635/quotes

I'm left with thinking that I don't understand women and that means that every time I might think I'm being friends with a woman that either
(a) we are friends or
(b) I'm being a nuisance and she is being polite or
(c) she keeps thinking "have I got to draw him a picture?"

Given that no one ever seems to say exactly what they mean, I was toying for a while with the idea that maybe a learning to understand body language at a concious level might help.
So, for example, you have to judge how close they come into your "private space" and the way their feet are pointing and where they look and so on.

Trouble is, when I tried noting these things I discovered that just about every woman I met wanted to have my babies. This means either(
(a) body language interpretation was wrong
(b)women are smarter than I think and they are just messing with me through false body language signals
(c) I have wasted an awful lot of opportunities in my life

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

I'm with you on the second (c).  Grrr!  I really need to speed up work on my time machine.

- Steve

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Speed up work on a ... time machine?  What's the point?
 

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic  (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

(c) was confirmed for me by a woman who decided to draw me a picture... and then pointed the intentions of her competition.  She never accomplished the goal indicated in the picture, but her competition...


 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

@BigInch

I have to finish it before I die.

- Steve

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Quote (RodStewart):

I wish - that - I knew what I know now
when I was younger

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

I think we can better quote Oscar Wilde:
"Youth is wasted on the young."

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Good point, but couldn't somebody else finish it and go back and get you???

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic  (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Cass and others, do those types of approach really work?

I know a few people that have tried their versions on me and it hasn't really worked out how they planned.  I also can think of a lot of Engineers that I can't imagine that approach working on.

It would probably work on my manager though so maybe I should take note.

mizzjoey, sometimes us men get caught up in being men and don't think with the organ designed to do the thinking.  Also most of us are capable of acting in ways which we later come to regret.  I'd say try and be honest, but without sugar coating it too much or he may not get the point.

Good luck.  On the bright side your situation is a bit simpler than the one I found myself in with a 6'4" Transsexual contractor.  There was no way I could think of to tell them I wasn't interested and didn't enjoy the flirting without coming across as some kind of bigot.  On the other hand I had the option of just biting my tongue and waiting for the contract to finish in a few weeks.
 

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

In my opinion Cass's type of approach works wonders in the political and politically correct sensitive worlds. They are actually appreciated. I think the lab world might require a little more direct approach.
Kenat, if you had tell him you enjoy hockey or rugby, he would have probably gotten the point. At least that's what said here, if you're not a hockey fan then you're...

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

I think Jane used to play Rugby (at least when still called Trevor), probably a lock forward, so telling them I enjoy it too may not have worked.winky smile

In fact, they may have had a thing for Rugby players 'cause one of our IT guys played fairly seriously and Jane loved him.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly


KENAT,

There is no ONE strategy or technique that will work for every situation.  For people like yourself who believe that mutually cooperative communication will not result in an adequate solution, you may refer your friends, coworkers and spouse to the WikiHow page on 'How to Deal With Impossible People"

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Well Kenat, if hshe was that big I trust you were wearing steel toed runners 'cause those rugby players can run pretty fast and are used to catch fairly heavy guys.

BTW, congrats Cass!! i'm pretty sure all those little stars help you on the way to the top this week 2thumbsup

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Cass (not entirely sure if your response was light hearted) I didn't mean to put down your approach, I was just wondering if you had actual experience of it working well rather than just it being what you'd been taught.

While not my natural instinct I try to keep an open mind on this kind of thing (part of a new years resolution a few years ago) and am willing to be persuaded.

I looked at the page and I'm not sure it really describes me, but then again I probably wouldn't would I.  http://www.wikihow.com/Deal-With-Impossible-People

mizzjoey, it's been a week, any luck?

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Cass, it is NOT cool to accuse KENAT in so many words of personality disorder (or at least of being "impossible"--but look what "impossible" is a stand-in for on that page) just because he questions whether your seminar classroom methods would work in real life.  Jeez.  (The page, on the other hand, does offer some good coping techniques for someone facing a situation where adult communication will no longer work.)

I too find it hard to believe that your approach as stated would work on someone who is not big on sensitivity and introspection, and of course anyone who's being a problem of the kind we're discussing wouldn't be very big on sensitivity and introspection.  VPL's recommendations seem a little more appropriate.

I also question some aspects of NVC as you describe it.  I understand the positive aspects to giving someone a choice so they don't feel the need to fight like a trapped rat, but if doing so means offering options where no options should be offered (like the choice to continue the unacceptable behavior), then I just can't support that.  It's certainly a tool to be reverted to under extreme duress (along "please don't kill me" lines), but otherwise can put out entirely wrong messages if used in the wrong situations.  "I was wondering if maybe you could possibly respect my boundaries" is WAY too weak, and might make the speaker a more appealing target for certain predatory types (not that I'm saying the Senior in question is necessarily such a type).

Hg

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RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

I don't see that Cass called Ken impossible.  She only referred him to a resource of info on how to deal with "impossible" people for whom mature communication is not an option.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Back to the O P

Our company's (mandatory) training was titled "Sexual Harassment in the Workplace." And it entailed a little more smack down. After repeated infractions "things" should be rolled up to your immediate supv.

I would like to hear the Senior Engineer's side of this Snafu. Not that I approve of his alleged actions or proposed frolicking in any way. Would just like to hear the "rest of the story."
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

There is a big difference between "Sexual Harassment" and (unfortunate) genuine infatuation at work.  I've seen the latter first hand and it can get very ugly.  No amount of "training" is ever going to prevent it.

- Steve

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

(OP)
I second Steve (SomptingGuy) on this.

I have seen sexual harassment happen in my previous workplace, and the equally bigoted manager in charge (related to the perpetrator, no surprise!) simply let things slide until the victim resigned with 24-hours notice. There is a difference btwn out there harassing someone and just being blind to hints.

However I do not flatter myself to be the object of this senior's affection. I have noticed that he really has an awkward style of interacting with others, and sometimes fails to recognize the limits of acceptable teasing/jokes/outside discussion at the workplace (like when the other party has had enough and he should move on to other topics, or jokes that fail and do not need to be repeated). One (male) senior I know even blocked this guy's emails.

My mentor is a rather nice and uncomplicated person, but my problem is letting him know that his way 'being buddy-buddy' with me is making me uncomfortable, without losing the otherwise okay professional relationsip.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Act now.  Situations like this do not "heal" or "go away".

The incident I referred to ended with the guy in question disappearing one afternoon, found hanging at his home (in time, thankfully).  Nobody talks about it at work.

- Steve

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

"awkward style, fails to recognize the limits of acceptable teasing/jokes/outside discussion"
vs.
"rather nice and uncomplicated person"

I'm confused (normal), is the guy a freak or just being clingy?
Sounds like this amigo has deep seated problems. (mom issues)

At the risk of losing a contact/"friend", I suggest staying away from this guy regardless of what the benefits are.  Not healthy.

I do not think it would be wise for you to be alone with him, especially in swimming attire.  

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

We opened with:
"he's a bit on the geeky and socially-awkward side"

But now we have moved to:
"....he really has an awkward style of interacting with others, and sometimes fails to recognize the limits of acceptable teasing/jokes/outside discussion at the workplace"

That's the really interesting thing about these threads, you start with one set of perceptions, respond and then something new bubbles to the surface which changes the situation.

We are apparently no longer dealing with a guy who has become somewhat infatuated with you and who might, just might, respond to the approaches Cass and Pat suggest; we are now looking a guy with more extensive problems; problems that might mean he is just a damned nuisance and just maybe he is something more serious than that.

So when you open with:
"Don't know if I actually have a situation or I should just loosen up, in fact."
I think you really know you have a situation of some kind and, moreover, one where the advise from Cass and Pat, which might just have worked with a semi-rational male, probably have no chance at all.

Of course the workplace has always been a bit of a zoo but it seems to me there are some critters grazing in the cubicles that ought not to be allowed to roam so freely.

The problem is to know which are harmless nerds and which are the rare ones that need the hockey mask and sack barrow treatment (would Hannibal really not want to eat Agent Starling?).

Unfortunately with people we don't have any nice clues to tell the bad ones apart from the annoying ones; nature is sometimes more helpful with other critters: a king snake or a coral snake?
"Red touch yellow, kill a fellow
Red touch black, venom lack."

Some more practical advise might be to get very good at not being left alone with him at any time and use the buddy system with some one sympathetic to the issues. Maybe you need to review the value of these lab meetings... can you get what you need some other way? some other lab?
Don't take phone calls, have an answering machine to screen calls and don't reply to any emails which are not exclusively work related or "acceptable" and adopt a more formal style, use the email signature options and in fact, start to respond as you would to a stranger.

You routinely lock up your house and your car.
That doesn't make you paranoid.
Leaving your car unlocked or with parcels in plain view on the seat is asking for trouble.

On the basis of what we have here we have no way to know if this is just a problem of social ineptitude that needs some kind of forceful handling, which it probably is, or is it one of those rare cases where the guy is on the edge of becoming something more alarming.
The way to find out isn't by becoming a victim.

I think some more practical/informed advise is now called for which I have no idea how to give.
Who could you talk to? one of the help groups out there?



 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

KENAT, if she called you 'impossible', that could mean several things.  Calling you 'impossible', with a smile, and a light swat on the back or chest probably means that she's flirting with you.  Calling you 'impossible' while shaking her head and walking away probably means she disagrees with your opinion, but is still friendly and respectful.  Calling you 'impossible' while staring you in the face and yelling probably means an insult.

In the spirit of this thread, we'll have to ask for more information in order to figure out what the intent was.
Or, we could just be smart, and let it drop....

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

"let it drop..."

Er, that's what I'd tried to do with my last post.

Missjoey, it sounds like a difficult one.  I've known a few people who were OK folks just incredibly socially inept.  However, I'm male, they were male and none of us gay so there wasn't the sexual aspect.

I have been a bit dense in relationships at times and prefer someone being honest than dragging it out being subtle etc. trying not to hurt me.

KENAT,

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RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

KENAT,
That is what I said 1 week ago (but of course you will get the star)
winky smile

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Mizzjoey, there you go.
Quite a few of us, guys, have said to take the direct approach (not that all of us are chasing skirts at the office, but HEY! we're male after all)
On the contrary, the gals are trying to spare our feelings when it comes to these type of situations. (sorry girls, but seems that we're not as touchy as you think we are.... SMACK!!!... that was my wife... ok, we might be a little touchy in some aspects)
So your call. Guys say go head on, girls say to beat around the bush and, eventually, insinuate that the hare is not there anymore. yinyang
Let us know how it turns out!!!

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Direct has worked for me on several occasions.  Them as are insensitive enough to create an uncomfortable situation aren't going to respond to subtlety.

I have gotten good results (including a continuing decent relationship with the parties in question) with the following examples:

"Wait, are you asking me on a date?" (yes) "I don't think that's a good idea."

"You bother me.  Leave me alone."

"Hell no, I'm not playing pool with you tonight!"

"Sorry, I don't do married guys." (this after an explanation that the wife wouldn't mind)

Everyone survived and very little blood was spilt.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Men are from Mars, women from Venus.  Hg, well, is as Mercurian as they come.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

We're just jamming on the old: Engineering men are socially inept nerds; engineering women are [/i]real[/i] women, with brains and other neat stuff.  It won't change.

- Steve

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

(OP)
Well.. what I mean is he is kind-hearted and harmless... but can be an annoyance to some people sometimes because he can be clueless/lacking sophistication. Don't we all?

Seriously, I don't mean to make him sound like a freak. He's a pretty normal, mentally-sound guy smile

I was hanging out with my brother last night and my phone rang twice. When I picked up the second time it was his wife calling me saying that her husband is worried something had happened to me since I've been so quiet lately, and would I join them for dinner one weekend?

What do you make of that? I think you guys are right. I'll take the direct approach. It seems like he's just trying to be nice but doesn't know how to do it right.

Phew! Lab day tomorrow. Wish me luck! Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be something else... drama = bad.

Thanks a lot,
jo

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

mizzjoey

don't disengage too early:

Option 1) you should be on high alert during dinner, for subtle hints and innuendo.  I think senior mon has gotten his wifey to drink the cool aid.
Translation - you could be encouraging their original scheme.

Option 2) He is using his wife to encourage you to let your guard down.

Option 3) He's a pretty normal, mentally-sound guy...and all this has been an exercise in futility, not to mention the substantial verbal hostilities spewed all over poor Kenat.  

Good Luck
 
   

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

(OP)
I think whatever happened with Kenat and Cass is unfortunate (might be just a misunderstanding over how the sentence came out? But Cass is not around to clarify so we won't know), but it has not been a futile exercise to me.

A lot of your replies (and I thank you for taking the time), especially from the men, made me realize that it might help me to be a bit more direct (and brutal?) when dealing with the males I meet at work. Should be handy for the tens of years I foresee myself being in this business. Love the game, but hate (some of) the players, folks!

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

"I'm on great terms with his lovely wife."

It would seem so because here we have:
"...it was his wife calling me saying that her husband is worried something had happened to me since I've been so quiet lately, and would I join them for dinner one weekend?"

Now tell me folks, what doesn't sound right about that?

I can tell you, if I told my wife I was worried about a younger woman who had been avoiding me, she would instantly opt for the harp(y) seal approach to problem solving.

So now, instead of gradually diminishing your contact or cutting it off completely, a new situation arises and what do you do?



 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

The Woody Allen syndrome springs to mind.  The wife sees you as a daughter; the husband doesn't.

- Steve

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Using cass' approach does not mean you can't or shouldn't be firm.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

"Seriously, I don't mean to make him sound like a freak. He's a pretty normal, mentally-sound guy"

As Drumchaser points out, there is some difference between what you say of him and what you say of his actions.

Most probably/evidently you are not the sort of person who easily believe ill of anyone. As a consequence you are but a step away from assuming the responsibility for his actions on yourself and you are not objective enough in appraising the situation.
This is risky.

If he is causing you concerns then he is at fault.
Do not rationalise that away nor assume that you must be responsible somehow or that he "may have misunderstood" your prior attitude toward him.

You need to remain clear and unequivocal about the one thing: his behaviour is unacceptable.

That's it. Nothing else. It is your right to say "No." and have it stick irrespective of anything that may have occurred previously whether intended or misinterpreted.

If you are inclined to believe the best of everyone then you may also be mis-reading his wife.

She should be feeling concerned about her husbands attitude toward you.
Let's face it, if he is really so socially inept that some people can only respond by blocking his emails, can he really be so clever as to conceal his actions or attitudes from his wife? Suppose you assume she knows what he wants, what does that suggest? It suggests to me that sooner or later she is going to blow and her most likely target will be you.

You know, there are some really sick people out in the world and they survive by being really plausible and neighbours and friends will all say they thought them nice quiet people and that they couldn't believe it when they finally ran amok with an AK or used more than rubble for their patio foundations.  

It is nice to think that she is the loving doting wife with no idea that her husband is not behaving as he should and that he really is a nice normal mentally sound guy.
Maybe that is all true, it probably is, BUT it is going to end in tears.
Get used to that idea and try and put an end now rather than later.

A question: have you met the wife by herself or always in his company? does he control the situation?
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

This is an akward situation without a doubt.  Also a reason why I keep my professional relationships strictly professional.

SomptingGuy - could be that the wife sees her as a daughter, but I had a coworker once, in a very similar situation, however there were no daughter-like intentions.  It turned out to be, to quote Seinfeld, an attempted "menage-a-trois" situation.  My colleague ended up leaving the company after that scenario was broached.  Sounds weird, but I guess it does happen!

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Missjoey, I wouldn't worry about an apparant miscomunication between Cass and I, you've got bigger fish to frywinky smile.  Hope the lab goes well and maybe you'll be able to get some resolution.

Monkeydog you got the stars this time not mesmile.

KENAT,

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RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly


Wow!  I'm gone for a day and a half at deposition and Mr. Friendly practically has a mob looking for him!  And poor KENAT is all buttsore. (I guess I'm going to have to download some Tougue-in-Cheek emoticons)

I'd like to respond by addressing the OP.  I'm sure a bunch of bright engineers can fabricate a hypothetical scenario where my suggestions would fail. There is no perfect system.  I'd rather deal with the actual situation as presented and make clear perhaps some things that I did not in previous posts.

As I stated before, my initial assumption, based on statements made by mizzjoey is that Mr. F. Senior is not some drooling lecher, but an individual with whom she wishes to remain in a mentor/pupil relationship.  This requires a measured response to keep this relationship undamaged.  If it doesn't work, then bring out the harpoon.

Mr. Senior is not here to defend himself, so we must rely on mizzjoey to establish the facts for us.  Mr. Senior needs to be asked in very clear language if his statements are an indication of romantic intentions.  If he indicates that this is the case, then mizzjoey must inform him in equally clear language that she is not interested in a romantic relationship with him.  Telling him he might not look good in a Speedo or reminding him of his marital status does not count as clear communication.  He may misinterpret these statements that if he looses 20 lbs, waxes his back and gets a divorce that she will say yes and rip off her blouse.  In fact, not bringing up her discomfort before this point sends a signal that these advances are welcome.

I'd also like to add that mizzjoey may in fact have a strategy of her own that I hinted at earlier.  But I will spell it out now.  My apologies to mizzjoey if this is a mis-characterization.

Let's assume that Mr. Senior's primary need is to find companionship, and he has spent a great deal of time with mizzjoey, mentoring, etc. in the hopes of obtaining that companionship. Mizzjoey has benefited from the relationship, i.e. her need for a mentor has been met.  Whether or not Mr. Senior should be doing this is immaterial.  That is between him and his spouse.

If mizzjoey tells Mr. Senior in unequivocal language that she is not interested in a romantic relationship, it becomes obvious to Mr. Senior that his primary need for romance is not going to be met and he may choose to not waste anymore of his time mentoring mizzjoey so that he can pursue someone else.  Again, this is not the concern of any of us here, unless one of us becomes his next target.  Mzzjoey probably knows this at least in the back of her mind.  If she can delay telling him how she feels, she can avoid a difficult revelation about herself and keep him as a mentor.  This is unfair to Mr. Senior who may feel as if he has been lead on.

If mizzjoey has misinterpreted his statements, then this is an opportunity to get back on the same page and no one gets hurt.  If Mr. Senior lies and says he had no such intentions, but stops the behavior, mizzjoey is spared the discomfort of his pursuit.  Mr. Senior may smart a bit from the refusal,however he may eventually get over his infatuation and resume as her mentor.  

If Mr. Senior continues the requests, despite repeated reminders, then increasingly stronger measures may be needed.  Right now is too soon to start filling out the Order of Protection without at least giving him a chance to modify his behavior.

And as far as calling KENAT impossible, I was only half serious.  It was more of a response to his post where he almost seems to brag about being difficult.  I've never thought he was difficult.  I doubt he is actually that contentious at his job.  There are impossible people, but they don't usually last at their jobs for very long.

 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Cass, I figured you were joshing, just wasn't totally sure.  Other people got more excited than me and kept brining it up.

I wasn't loosing any sleep over it and yes, I have a bad habit of almost taking pride in some characteristics that others assess as negative.  For instance I took it as a compliment when the principle of my high school said I was a cynic.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make and I'm pretty sure you & hopefully the OP get is that text book solutions don't always work in the real world.  Engineers tend to be a bit off the 'normal range' on various psych type measures as I understand it which adds to my scepticism.  I was wondering if you had had an actual example of your kind of approach working.

If I have an issue with someone, think I'm right & they're wrong, and then they come up with all these 'I' statements it's going to confirm my opinion that they have the problem, isn't it?

I'd still suggest being fairly direct with the guy, which Cass approach doesn't necessarily prevent, in fact in later posts she says to do that so we're probably arguing over nothing.

However, I can be impossible, especially when one of my other character flaws of getting caught up on something and not being able to let it go (maybe this is a case in point) flairs up.

Kenat - trying to let it go, honest.

KENAT,

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RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly


KENAT

I don't have a recent example from my job that I can think of.  I don't usually have these kinds of relationship issues at work because I'm fairly autonomous in what I do and I work with a small group of people that have low levels of drama.

But if you will accept an example from my personal life that occurred about 1-1/2 weeks prior to my last performance in January, I can give you that.  

Here is a highly condensed and edited recent conversation between my SO and me that sort of fits the NVC model.

Me (observation):  "I really appreciate when you are willing to cook dinner, but I've noticed the menu is almost always the same, fried pork chops, augratin potatoes, and canned beans or corn.  I know I have mentioned this before that about a week or so before a performance, I like to avoid carbs and eat only low-fat protein and fresh vegetables."

Me (step 2 of the observation): "Do you remember our conversation from the last time?"

SO:  "Yes I remember, but I didn't make any carbs."

Me (feeling):  "I feel exasperated that I have not quite made myself clear about the food choices here."

SO:  "Oh, and there's pie for dessert."

Me (need):  "Honey, I've gained weight when I should be loosing.  I need to avoid this kind of food."  OK, maybe not a universal human need, but pretty prevalent in the US.

SO:  "Does that mean you want butter on your tortilla or not?"

Me (request):  "Do you know anyone at Kaiser who does lipo?"

Yeah, I didn't get anywhere, except that I've laid the groundwork for my next request around the same issue.  And that's usually how this kind of thing goes.  Don't expect a miracle the first time.  It takes work.  Every step is difficult and it just isn't helpful for me to get upset and angry, or throw a fit.  It's about 2 weeks out from my next performance and I will probably try to be in charge of dinner from now until then.  Or make sure there is something around that I can eat.  At least he's agreed not to keep ice cream around!

 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Wow, I had the same sort of thing a couple of years back.  My SO mentioned that the spark had left and I was letting myself go.  So I stopped eating lard and drinking beer.  Those two things, done together, see my weight plummet.

But SO started getting annoyed that I wasn't interested in the food she'd cooked for us (me, her, child).  It came to a head.  I told her that I didn't like being "force fed".  That was the day we went our separate ways (mentally), physically a while later.

- Steve

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Sounds like settling for complaints falling on deaf ears, not like a success story.

Also, regardless of the intent, statements like "I failed to make myself clear" are dangerously close to "I brought it on myself" which is dangerously close to "I deserved it".

But then I have a dark view of the world.

Hg

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RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Oh Cass, illussions gone.

Quote:

Yeah, I didn't get anywhere, except that I've laid the groundwork for my next request around the same issue.
Here you are setting up SO for the list method for routine arguments; (an argument is when one or both get to the raised voices stage, before then is the honeymoon period) and poor SO will find fattening foods at the top of the list every time... and even once he has learned his lesson and feeds you lettuce and Kiwi fruit, you'll still remind him of it for, oh, let's say, the next 11 years (based on personal experience of my own SO so far - er, that's how long we've been married so I don't know if there is a cut-off point).

But I really did like the teacher - idiot child routine:

Quote:

"Do you remember our conversation from the last time?"
My wife is never that patient, she just lays into me.
Of course, we here at Eng-Tips realise that this is a relatively new SO and you are house training him carefully. However, if this is how you really do intend to go on, without anger, shouting or throwing a fit (I can live with sarcasm and the teacher - idiot child routine a lot more easily that keep having to duck flower-pots), then I guess I'd better follow that link to your NVC training course.
But is it me who should take it or the wife?ponder
(PS, an emoticon would have allowed Kenat some respite from the ribbing)

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

jmw, I'm not sure what illusion I've shattered.  What were you thinking, that I was the love child of Ghandi and Mother Teresa?  Seriously, by groundwork I mean that I have tried to address these things before it gets bad.  I'm not anywhere close to being consistent with that either.

I've actually had better success with a different issue.  It's just that that situation didn't lend itself into a nice little compact NVC 'scene'.  My SO has a habit of complaining about the tiniest little things and his 4 yo daughter will do it as well.  When they get rolling, the two of them almost sound like they are playing a game of Can You Top This.  "I'm too cold, now I'm too warm, the car heater is blowing in my eyes, the seat doesn't feel right, my underwear are too tight, the sun is at a bad angle, my arm itches, etc."  All in a 5-minute car ride to the movie theatre.  

It gets exhausting being in a car especially if the two of them are going on and on about every aspect of their personal comfort. I'm a problem solver and try to 'tend' to those things.  After enduring months and months, and secretly complaining to my dance friends, I tried the NVC thing for awhile.  The complaining would get better, but then would get bad again.  I lost my patience with it after about 7-8 months.  I'm an Army brat.  If I had been in a car with my parents with a constant litany of complaints that I could easily have solved on my own, LIKE PUTTING ON THE FREAKING SWEATER RIGHT NEXT TO ME ON THE CAR SEAT, I would have been left at a gas station.

Not too long ago I was enduring yet another 'complaint' ride listening to every physical change each of them experienced.  My SO said something like, "Do you know what I need?"

And my response was, "Yes. a Princess bandaide and a binky!"

NVC, Ghandi and Mother Teresa.....right out the window.

Has the complaining stopped?  No.  But I can now wave a Princess bandaid to get a temporary stop to it.  It makes him laugh, though, and he promises to work on not complaining so much.




 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

I read an article once about what kind of people Dr. Neil Clark Warren aims to exclude from eharmony.com (internet matchmaker).  One type is people who are chronically dissatisfied with everything.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Isn't that one of the reasons why people become engineers - to make things better than they are to start with?

Oh, my mistake. Some of us do it for the money... wink


jmw, SomptingGuy - we have much in common.



Why do so many of of you use 'S.O.' as an abbreviation for girlfriend or boyfriend, husband or wife? Is it some dreadful politically correct way of avoiding declaring whether you're married or not, or whether you're straight of not? I only ever see it on Eng-Tips so I don't know whether it's a US thing or an Eng-Tips thing.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

SO

I hate the terms girlfriend and boyfriend.  I haven't been a teenager for a long time.  Given that partner was hijacked by the gay community a long time ago, there aren't many other words or expressions left.

SO is gender neutral and doesn't imply any kind of sexual orientation or social commitment.
 

- Steve

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

We could try EI, I suppose ('er indoors);
"Trouble" (Trouble and strife), (so long as we stick with London expressions and avoid like the plague Oz terms of endearment (Bush Hog, Glamour Maggot), we are safe... my wife could teach the CIA a thing or two about email surveillance).
SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed) but its true, most such terms a gender specific, including, by inference, Better Half", and SO is concise.

Cass,
I kept thinking of you as an engineer and was shocked by your having an arguments list like any other woman.
But if your Arguments list is continuously updated to remove obsolete and fictitious crimes, if you only argue about one thing at a time, if you stick to logic, you will have broken the mold.
I had thought that the Engineer part of your personality might make this difference.
We shall see when you relate further episodes of the dietary code, which obviously you are now commited to do.noevil

Kenat,
it wasn't until we had the "Investors in People" team around that I discovered that I was a cynic. In fact, they said I was a cynical terrorist, or something to that effect.


 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

I interpret SO as being a partner in a common-law relationship.

What's wrong with spouse? That's gender neutral and covers both married and common-law relationships.

cheers

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

My sister-in-law doesn't have an SO.  She has an IJO: "insignificant just-another".

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

That opens up another point of view. If you have a Significant Other, does that mean that everyone else is insignificant?

cheers

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

So Cass, was that a no?smile

Ducking for cover...

Sompting, I have had similar with the Mrs, I now accept that when home I am a Calf to be fattened and when away during the week I try and make up for it.  If I ever find a job in town I'm in trouble though.

mizz joey, Any success when you saw the guy?

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

"Spouse" doesn't cover relationships where the people aren't married, either by certificate or common law.

"S.O." ain't my favorite phrase but since I can't come up with a better one (in terms of neutrality of gender, marital, and cohabitative status) I'm not about to start complaining about it.  "Lover" would work from a definitional stance, but is too sexually loaded for this forum (and rather ooks me out, anyway).

Hg
 

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

HgTX, in my opinion anyone who ever "ooks you out" should be banned from the forum.  I mean we engineers are fairly opened minded and reasonable people as a group, but no one, engineer or otherwise, should ever be required to accept an "ooking out" just to belong to this forum.

I am on your side ready to do virtual battle with the "ookers" in this world!

clown

P.S. I hope you don't mind a bit of teasing...I just fell in love with the "ooks me out" phrase although I don't know why...it just struck me as hilarious)

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Here is a different angle on the situation:

Before I was married I had a thing for this (single) gorgeous blonde admin. assistant where I used to work.   I started to flirt with her and she did nothing to rebuff me.  In fact, we started having lunch together almost every day. After a while we were seeing each other socially outside of work.   I really thought (wanted) this to lead to a relationship.   It wasn't just about sex either, I really liked this woman and could see myself falling in love with her.   Things went on like this for about three months.   Then one day we went out for drinks and a bite to eat after work.   Afterwards I drove her back to her condo and we sat in the car for a good half hour talking.  Then I leaned over and tried to kiss her.  She pushed me away, and told me: "Sorry, but I'm just not attracted to you".  What an awkward situation that was.   Afterwards I was angry.  I really felt used.  I was also hurt.   From that day on we had no relationship whatsoever.   I will never know what HER intentions were, but to me it really felt like I had been used.   I had paid for her meal quite often when we went out.   When she had car problems I gave her rides not only to and from work, but also took her to run errands both during our lunch hour and after work.   Did she think I was just being a good friend?  I will never know.   But I can tell you that from my perspective, I thought it was pretty obvious what my intentions were, and she never sent me any signals (unless they were too subtle for me to pick up) that she did not feel the same way until I finally tried to get physical with her.  I walked away from the whole incident with a not too high opinion of her as a person.

I guess my point is, that if you hope to salvage any sort of professional relationship with this guy and/or minimize the chance that someone will get hurt, or end up in an extremely uncomfortable/awkward situation, then you need to be direct with him, and you need to do it now.  A simple "I am not interested in you that way" should do the trick.   Most men do their thinking below the belt, but we are not psychotic sex fiends.   If you tell a guy in a plain, direct manner (why can't women figure this out?) that he is barking up the wrong tree, the message is usually received loud and clear. As others have pointed out, if you say things like "I don't date married men", ignore him, or worst of all, lead him on, then most of us men will think "game on!".

I will also tell you that this situation unfortunately has no happy ending.  If you let him down now, be prepared to see your professional relationship end (assuming his intentions are more than just being a good mentor).  Many men will do things and spend money on women in hopes that it will lead to a relationship, or at the very least sex.  If you let him down gently now, he will most likely get the message and sooner or later he will probably not bother with you at all.   You simply have to face up to that fact.  The question is, do you want a clean break, or a messy break where you end up looking like a user?   

P.S.  The whole thing with his wife seems a little bizarre to me.  If my wife found out I was mentoring some 22 year old hottie, the situation could get ugly very fast.   
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

(OP)
Hi all...

Wow, I can't believe the lengths and details to which we have discussed this subject!

Anyway, I read your replies and sharing of similar experiences... Cass is right when she mentioned that I'm afraid of losing the benefits of this relationship. Mr. Senior is someone with years of experience in our specialized field, and the task for my postgraduate (Masters) thesis is writing a numerical program on his theoretical framework (he's working on his PhD), so we need to work closely together and I'd hate to ruin our small team over some emotional issue. Also, I don't want to disappoint our two lecturers - they've been very generous spending every weekend with the two of us when they don't have to.

That said, I never had the intention of leading him on and using him for freebies. I know some of my friends who do not pay her equal share when going out with guys... that is not something I do. I buy this senior lunch from time to time, especially after payday, since I owe him so much for sharing his expertise. Of course, my fiance gets fancier meals (Sorry Spongebob for your blonde crush; I hope your wife treats you better now big smile)

In retrospect... I realize that those after-lab lunches was not such a good idea, no matter whoever is paying. I merely thought that it was really nice to meet someone whom I can discuss technical things at length with... sans sexual attraction!

I've been firmly navigating my conversations with Mr Senior last Saturday to lab topics only, and he is slowly getting the idea that I'm not interested to entertain requests for social outings. Actually, this is something I've been doing since I started my postgraduate studies/working closely with him... so my OP was really due to frustration over having to repeat the same thing over and over again. Now I'm getting more comfortable with being more direct in expressing my discomfort. He has toned down somewhat and I might try a combination of Cass' and HgTX's suggestions when he needs to be reminded again.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Quote (HgTX):

"Spouse" doesn't cover relationships where the people aren't married, either by certificate or common law.
I disagree! It may be more a Canadian thing but "common law spouse" is a legally defined relationship.

http://www.familylawtoronto.ca/common_law.html

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&amp;q=%22common+law+spouse%22+america&btnG=Search&meta=

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&amp;q=%22common+law+spouse%22&amp;btnG=Google+Search&meta=

cheers

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Confused.  You disagree by reaffirming Hg's statement?

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

CorBlimeyLimey,

Statement about common law relationships does not hold in the UK - no legal standing.

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

It does in many of the US staes, though.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

TheTick,

How/where did I reaffirm Hg's statement?

cheers

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Hamish,

From what I see it's 50/50. For social welfare it's accepted, but for taxation it's not.

cheers

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Hg's statement affirms the existence of common law marriage.  You say you disagree, then say "But Canada has common law marriage".

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Tick-

I think he was disagreeing about the use of the word spouse.

V

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Quote (HgTX):

"Spouse" doesn't cover relationships where the people aren't married, either by certificate or common law.
ponder  One of us needs to learn English. I interpret that statement as "the term spouse does not cover unmarried relationships". I'm saying that it does, at least in Canada and some states.

HgTX, can you shed some light on that statement please?

cheers

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

"Spouse" doesn't cover relationships where the people aren't married, either by certificate or common law.

ergo...
"Spouse" does cover relationships where the people are married, either by certificate or common law.

I just found it funny that you countered a statement that affirms the existence of common law marriage by saying there is such a thing as common law marriage.

Common law marriage = married relationship = spouse.

Not only do I know English, but I can read and comprehend an entire sentence.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Kenat,
Yes, this has veered off-topic from the OP, but unfortunately the language has nothing to do with engineering, so it's not really suitable for that forum either. sad

TheTick,
While I have to admit that English was my worst subject in High School, and that my grammar and punctuation usage has room for much improvement, I stand by my assumption that Hg was stating that the term "spouse" was not recognised by a legally certified or common-law realtionship.

However, I will of course stand to be corrected ... by Hg.



 

cheers

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

My point was that the term "spouse", unlike "significant other", does not apply in cases where there is no marriage, whether that marriage be by certificate or common law.  Not every cohabitant is a common-law spouse, not every "significant other" is a cohabitant, etc.

"Person I'm currently in some kind of unspecified romantic relationship with" is just way too long.  "Significant other" works, and has even stopped sounding ridiculous to me, now that I reflect upon it.

Hg

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RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

HgTX,

Thanks for the clarification.



TheTick,

I apolgise if my "One of us needs to learn English" statement ticked you off (no pun intended). Someone emailed me to point out that it came across as being antagonistic. It was not intended to be, and was aimed as much at me as it was at you. I hope you weren't offended by the comment. Obviously we both know English, and can both read and comprehend entire sentences ... we just use different comprehension algorithms. lol

cheers

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Overall, a good lesson in "What was said" vs. "What was meant".  Peace.

batHonesty may be the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.bat
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com-SolidWorks API VB programming help

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

peace

cheers

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

New topic:

How would this thread have gone if the OP was "MisterJoe" and not "mizzjoey"?

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

As in a senior lady is making moves on me...

I'd just "cope" the best I could.

- Steve

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Hmmmh, we men have a much broader range of what we could cope with. As stated before, we tsometimes tend to think with the wrong organs.

Kenat, drop it. A a formerly Trevor now Jane making a move on me. No matter how flattering it could be just makes me have a pretty ugly mental image (which I've had ever since you posted it)

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

It call comes down to perceptions doesn't it?  Now instead of talking about a "friendly old Geezer" it would be a "Cougar out on the prowl."

I think men and women will react to the same situation very differently.  Where the OP continued with accepting the comments from Mr. Senior to avoid his hurt feelings, a male in the same situation would probably continue accepting the comments simply because they were apathetic towards the advances.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

I seem to recall I got more of a deer in the headlights response.

Unotec, if you'd met either or both of us it's a scary image.  One of those things that I didnt' see the funny side of at the time but look back on and (in the right company) it's hilarious.

KENAT,

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RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly


The OP, and related questions...
Does NVC work?  Yes, if by 'work', you mean you have preserved the relationship.  If you mean win (i.e. get what you want) by whatever method, no matter the cost, then no, NVC does not work that way.

I had to search out my reference on conflict resolution for this stuff, but I found it useful.  Here's my HIGHLY edited version

Strategies for ending a conflict,

Crush the opponent  You get what you want at the cost of burning a bridge and guilt.  This is sort of the harpoon method, although I'm going to argue that in mizzjoey's case, she's not even going to get begrudging mentoring from Mr. Senior.

Avoidance with the hope that something changes  We can see where that strategy lead for mizzjoey.  Works for awhile, but usually leads to flight.

Establish needs and focus on solutions  Generally involves compromise.  Sort of my 'food' conflict,admittedly the only compromise that's been established (so far) is I never have to worry about finding anything other than rocky road ice cream in my freezer.  I can't stand it.  It's the only ice cream I will refuse to eat, and I LOVE ice cream.  I've tried picking my way around all the stuff in it, but those nasty little marshmallows are what do it for me.

SO-tangent...
The term SO works for me.  It's nice and bland for most people.  Boyfriend sounds too juvenile and main squeeze is too cutesie.  He's not a spouse, nor fiance, nor cohabitant.  And in these parts, a Partner is definitely the same-sex version of spouse.  I had to stop saying 'my Business Partner' because of the confusion it caused. And you can have a spouse that is not a cohabitant as well as a cohabitant that is just a roommate and not an intimate partner.  There are far more intricacies to relationships where language simply has not kept pace, or perhaps there is a general reluctance to use terms from the past like lover, paramour, beau, or suitor.  Those sound positively Victorian to me.

Role Reversal...
It would be interesting to hear from any of the younger guys about advances from older women.  MadMango, didn't you once refer to a group of drooling, smacking older women at one job as 'The Viper Pit?'

 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Cass, excellent memory!  The Viper Pit was a collection of ill-mannered, bitter and implacable women that relished the idea of holding any amount of power over the younger males in the office.  Slightly different than Tick's role-reversal question, as no inclination of attraction was ever hinted at on their end.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Gee Cass,
"Compromise?"
[quote}Establish needs and focus on solutions  Generally involves compromise.[/quote]

What is the compromise for Mizzjoey?
Is this the Bill Clinton definition of sex we are talking about here?
She only wants the mentor relationship and simply friendship. It seems, unless he has been totally misunderstood, that he wants to turn into "The Stud".
About the best that can be hoped for is that Mizzjoey will be able to turn him off in such a manner that he can save face.
I'll assume that the "generally" means "not in this case".
rednose

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly


mizzjoey's 'compromise' is to deal honestly with Mr. Senior by telling him in clear, honest language that she is not interested in an intimate relationship, thereby risking her mentoring from Mr. Senior. The compromise is that the requests for dates stop (something she wants), but then so may the mentoring (something from which she benefits).  Each party should allow the other to make an informed decision on whether or not the relationship is provided a benefit to them.

She may 'only want the mentor relationship and simple friendship', but what if that relationship provides no benefit to Mr. Senior?  What if he is just mentoring mizzjoey in the hopes of a date?  Not telling Mr. Senior she is not interested is a strategy to keep the mentoring without dealing honestly with Mr. Senior.

This is coercion or forced mentoring.  An extreme characterization to make the point is, "You WILL mentor me on my terms or else I will be forced to file an order of protection."

 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

(OP)
Oh... and there I was thinking that I'm fun enough as a friend and lab-mate (to Mr Senior) without having to drag my gender into the relationship as a benefit to the other party...

Before the swimming invitations began and turned into an annoyance I really enjoyed the conversations that I had with this senior and thought he was really cool sad

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

tell him " my boyfriend is going to kick your ass if you ask me out again". He'll get the point.  

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

This horse has been flogged, post-mortem.



I think seniors wife should do a penisectomy.

He should be in a more mentoring state of mind after the swelling goes down. And mizzjoey will have no worrries, even at the pool.  

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

...unless he goes out and gets an addedictomy afterward!

 

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

two letters N and O go a long way. Communication.

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Of course, your direct communication might be correct for you. I see your other choice might be to get involved in excessive active general exercise that you as a younger person could do. The next day when he's troubled by soreness in every part of his body- he'll certainly reconsider ever getting too involved with you.  

RE: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly

Hey Jo

Don't know if anyone suggested this, but next time when he asks you out, just tell him that you've got to meet your boyfriend, or go on a date...

I understand your situation, I work in an engineering company, and I'm surrounded by male co-workers, I got asked out by a few people as soon as I started to work there, one of them was married and wanted affair... but luckily, they are not 'older' seniors...(easier to reject)

Good luck... :)
 

Cutie

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