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Degradation of Drawing Standards
13

Degradation of Drawing Standards

Degradation of Drawing Standards

(OP)
Ok I am not old old school because I didn't start on the board but has anyone else noticed the degradation of drawing standards?  I think this really boils down to the use of CAD.  Now that most packages have become easier to use (unlike the early versions of Pro E & MDT) I think more people are creating drawings.  Things I see a lot of are missing hidden lines (I understand clarity reasons), lack of centerlines, dimensioning with disregard to intent (like not coming from datums), lack of tolerance consideration (like 3place decimals throughout), dimensioning to hidden lines, poor overall dimensioning & view layout, over crowding, etc. And god forbid they try to use GD & T.

I must just be getting older and grumpier...
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

chancey:

I am in agreement with you totally.

I do a lot of training in GD&T and also Blue Print reading. I remember BP training a few years back in a automotive supplier company that I had trained many, many people in GD&T. All lines on the drawing were the same. There were no hidden lines, centre lines, phantom lines or chain lines. At least they had section lines. All lines were exactly the same width too. What a mess!

Maybe it is the cad systems used today but the result certainly doesn't help anyone using the drawing and could (and has) lead to a lot of misinterpretation. The person using a drawing is also a Customer and the product (drawing) should be clear and concise.

 

Dave D.
www.qmsi.ca

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Every drawing I see from every vendor I deal with is crap.

Some are less crappy and some are more crappy - but all are crap.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

2
Chancey, I agree (well maybe not on the hidden line thing) and I too don't date back to using a drawing board in anger.

I was brought to this company as part of a team trying to improve this.  It's been a long hard struggle and now it appears we may have finally lost.

Despite proving the benefit of higher quality drawings/checking by reduced ECO count on programs that were checked it appears we may have lost the fight.

We've been suffering in the current economy as well as some questionable management decisions and now managements big idea seems to be to give our vendors any old crap drawing and expect them to fill the voids because 'they're hungry'.  How the #@$%#$%!#$% they're meant to know the design intent, required tolerances is beyond me & it's all tied in with wanting to outsource/offshore more and more work.

I think our CEO's wet dream would be him as the only US employee just having to phone the relevant subcontractor in whatever country he can find the cheapest sweat shop.3

Rant over..... for now.

KENAT,

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Drawing standards are not taught in school and managers that are not experienced in engineering or drafting don't care or don't know about them.
Therefore, a don't care or lazy attitude take precedence.
With jobs being global now, standards are mixed and some become overwhelmed or confused, sometimes raising costs for various reasons.
I don't see it getting better in the near future.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

2
The standards are the same.  Compliance is dwindling.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I agree with everyone else on this.  Not sure how to enforce it though as many don't see the problem.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Amen, amen and AMEN.  A mend is virtually imposssible.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

This subject has been visited many times before on these fora, and it's true.  With the advent of CAD, management figured that the engineers could now do their own drawings, as the required skilss for board work were no longer necessary.  The only areas that this is true are maybe line work, lettering and descriptive geometry.  They neglected to factor in the ability to put a lot of information in a small area, keeping it easy to understand and not open to varying interpretations.
I am currently checking a mold drawing and design created by a contract engineer.  It is obvious he does not understand GD&T basics.  He used first angle projection, odd scales, lower case lettering, included unnecessary fabrication instructions, used vertical text, unassociative dimensions, poor tolerancing, etc... and I have found this to be quite common.
The basic design, however, was good.  The only thing I found that I would change is a #10-32 threaded hole he made 1" deep for a shear application.
I spent enough time on the board and had enough blood spilled on my drawings to have an appreciation of a GOOD drawing and you're right, they are becoming rarer than hens teeth. banghead
 

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

   Was drafting ever rigorously taught in college?  I recall being taught the basics.  My present knowledge comes from reading all the literature I can get my hands on, including the standard itself, and taking extra courses.

   How many companies and organizations have mechanical design and drafting as their primary expertise?

   I suspect that many if not most companies were started by product experts or salespeople.  Mechanical design got added later.  A major problem with mechanical design is that it looks easy.  Everybody understands what plates, gear and screws do.  There is no need to start off your mechanical group by hiring someone experienced and competent.  By the time someone experienced and competent gets into the office, standards have become low.

   About twelve years ago, I was sent out for UNIX system administration training, so that I could manage the CAD stations.  Once I got into the administration stuff, I was amazed at the complete lack of supervision.  Everyone tried to micromanage my mechanical stuff, at which I had more than ten years of practical experience.  My system administration was two weeks of training plus a month's experience, and I could not get supervised even if I wanted to.   

               JHG

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

(OP)
Nothing like opening Pandoras box.  It takes the sting off a bit knowing that others share in the pain!

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

You can partly see now why jobs are outsourced. Managers don't know, it looks complicated, thus must be expensive. Turns out it is expensive because purchasing/marketing/etc don't understand...it's too technical for them. So, send it out. "Out of site/out of mind".
I have witnessed this at several companies.
My last company was managed by ex-Dot.com defunct company managers...managing an engineering company.
Half of the company was sent to China. Did they save cost? No.
To make up for it, they created their own standards. Then lost military contracts because they lost expertise in the standards arena.
Approx 3/4 of the employees were let go.
The few that are still around try to follow drawing standards, but they are never checked or approved...only that the drawings are done and parts are made. Most are scrapped or re-machined because of out of spec.

The only standard that I'm aware of now at a lot of companies, is "MIC-1000" (Make It Cheap, scrap the project after 1000 are shipped).

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

When I started out board drafting, if I screwed-up I would find my drawing sitting on my table bleeding like a stuck pig.  There was no discussion.  I took my lumps and corrected things until there was no more red on the sheet.  If that endangered a project deadline, I found myself working very late into the early morning if needed.  When I have tried this same approach recently I am lambasted for being too picky.  I suppose it is just a change of the times.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

   I agree with most here CAD has alot to do with the problem ...both in training operators and also computer capabilities! Programs would "almost" make a drawing correctly, but never like what I was thought in school ...but it was accepted!
  BUT the "other" problem is management! When they were coming up in the industry (engineering/design) it was in a turmoil (not that it isn't now) but they NEVER saw what "real" drawings were! So now when they look over project drawings and I point out issues I have with them I get ..."It's good enough!" Engineering firms seem to think they are here to sell an engineering idea or concept ...and they are, but that idea is carried by my drawings, like a $500 a plate dinner served on "used paper plates!" The customer that knows won't have good thoughts about what he's getting ...no matter how good it taste! AND the real kicker it's all preventable, if they only can recognize that good drawings help sells their engineering ideas, but I find it's like explaining what the color red looks like to a blind person! They have not clue.  ...My $0.02!
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

"The standards are the same.  Compliance is dwindling. "

I'm not sure that's entirely true though.

A lot of the standards when they switched to ASME from MIL or ANSI dropped a lot of the 'shall' terminology and changed to should or even weaker.

I'm sure the intent was to allow flexibility when appropriate but this has arguably been abused in many cases.

Of course for those that don't know what a drawing standards is, the change of wording can't be blamed.

KENAT,

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

(OP)
I'm with you MadMango.  They just don't make skin as thick as they used to.  Mind you I'm proabably a babe in the woods at 40 but I actually appreciate the bloody drawings.  To me it's all about what you know and I certainly don't want to send out prints that folks are going to gather around and have a good laugh over.  

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

"MIC-1000"
I like that!  If and when I ever think of moving on from where I am, I'll be tempted to slip that into the drawing format (if the standards are still followed as they are now).

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Thanks ewh...I made it up bigsmile
that would be funny to add it to the drawings. I have done similar acts in the past. Sometimes to see if the checker is really checking.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

The value of drafting standardize is not understood by most who went straigth from school into an engineering position.  

I know some engineering go on about 3D models making drawing no longer necessary.  This is true to a point.  The information that was originally put on the drawing still needs to appear in the 3D model if you don't do the drawing.

A lot of people don't seem to realize that a drawing is a legal document, on the same order of importance as a contract which is put together by a laywer.

Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

While it is true that drawings may not be necessary if the fabricator has the correct software to view the model, tolerancing still has to be applied, thus any model used alone would have to be annotated.  This will help do away with poor drafting practices, but will emphasize poor tolerancing.

Chris,  I was thinking of adding it to all of the format templates.  It would probably be years before it was noticed, if at all.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Let's not turn this into a 2D/3D drawing/no drawing thread, and keep it a "bash poor drafting methodology" thread.

2thumbsup

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

A recent favorite of mine is dip your brush in the GD&T ink well and proceed to spatter it all over the drawing.  If you put enough GD&T on a drawing you are sure to get a part that should fit your application.  
I think The Tick summed it up above, Same standard, Poor compliance.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

There aren't enough drafting experts anymore. When I got out of college, I couldn't make a drawing for my life. In my first company for about 2 years, I had an old draftsman beat good drafting practice into my head. That's the only way to learn.

I think a lot of the REAL drafting information is not in any standards, and it's just based on tribal knowledge. There aren't enough good drafters around to teach the young bucks.

V

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

That's because good drafters are seldom hired for their expertise anymore.  Management just doesn't see the benefit, when they could hire another designer instead.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I disagree with quite a few posters.  I still have to dig out quite a few 20+ year old mylar drawings from Ford, Chrysler, etc. and they are awful compared to what we produce on the computer today.  Fuzzy, indistinct lines, huge sheets (oversize E) for small, simple parts.  I swear those guys must have been paid by the square foot.

I think one of the key things lacking in most midrange CAD systems is the ability to enforce standardization.  A lot of these systems (SW & Acad are particularly guilty) allow each user unlimited freedom to mess things up.  I setup our Pro/E system with standardization in mind & every drawing has identical line weights, lettering, etc. etc.  That doesn't mean a incompetent user can not make a bad drawing but we don't keep those people on too long.

I agree most new engineers don't have a good drawing/drafting background but I didn't either when I graduated 30 years ago.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

No one is claiming that all  board drawings were better than todays CAD drawings.  But in my experience, the board drawings (done by a drafting department) at every company that I have ever worked at are much superior to the CAD drawings that come out of most of todays engineering departments.  Your mileage may vary.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

The decline of drafting means the decline of a common design language.

Yes, it is possible to fully document in 3D.  What is not really happening (yet) is the evolution of a common, widely used 3D design language.

Every so often I am reminded of the limitations of 3D vs. 2D documentation (yes, I typed those in the right order).  Engineering professionals take too much for granted w.r.t. non-techies ability to fully read and comprehend a design in 3D.  2D really does work better to get the message across for many folks.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

dgallup, sure line weights etc. used to be an issue.  Now they shouldn't be for the most part.  I've seen a few poor old drawings but on average, trying to allow for the evolution of drawing standards over the last few decades, the ones I saw were probably better.

My biggest concern on drawings (and the limited hibrid 3D MBD we do) is that people aren't properly defining the part especially with respect to tolerancing.  This is then compounded by poor drawing layout etc.

The drawing (or MBD package) should be unambiguous, for the most part they aren't, or even if they are unambiguous to them selves they don't support correct fit etc. at the next level.

KENAT,

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Whether it's CAD or board drafting, done by drafters/designers/or engineers, standards by ESME/ASTM/DOD/MIL/etc are just not followed by most anymore.
I see CAD apps setup all the time with some standards, but are usually setup by IT/CAD mngrs/eng/etc. Usually by people that do not know the standards.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

There are definately "not enough drafting experts".  The problem is that many engineers who've didn't even take a drafting curiculum in school think they are drafting experts simply because the software does a good portion of the *drawing* work for them.  Drawing something quickly doesn't make someone a knowably *drafter*.

I think that drafting is the tailend of a long tradition.  Back in the middleages, they had drafters, but their job then was mostly to reproduce other works accurately.  Over time, this task expanded into having the responsibility to create the works from under-detailed notes.  Sometime in the 19th Century, the field started becoming more formalized.  The need is still there, but it's going to take some big lawsuit to help the general industry to re-realize it.

Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I found out today that the Engineering Director thinks I spend all my time telling people to move notes a few fractions of an inch.

This despite him having had my boss & I prepare a report on the types and approximation of frequency, of errors that I found late last year.

I don't remember listing 'notes out a fraction of an inch' as one of them.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I was lucky enough to learn on the board in high school.  My teacher was very good about railing in the standards.

Problem with engineers doing their own drawings is most "engineers" didn't take years of CAD training prior to making drawings.

I was on the academic advisory board for the CAD program at the college I graduated from (and I only took descriptive geometry for fun).  The industry members of the board from Chrysler, Delphi, etc all had the same complaint that there were a ton of people who could work in 3D, but couldn't read or create a blueprint.  My reation to that is how can you create the model if you can't create the documentation to back it up?!?  There's something fundamentaly wrong with that.

I'd love to see drafters still start and learn on the board, and to get some training in quality control to really learn how parts are measured.  That way they can link the dimensions with the measurement, what's critical, etc.

James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

BRING BACK THE CHECKING FUNCTION

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

No, many companies do give lip service to the checking function, but it is usually peer review.  What is needed is to BRING BACK THE CHECKERS!

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Bring back the Checkers??? That is a bit like bring back Inspectors on the factory floor and our quality problems are corrected. Checkers or Inspectors don't fix the problem.

Training is the problem. After the training, it is the application of the training.

How about placing hidden lines where they are applicable? Are your object lines are a bit heavier? How about 3rd angle projection - are the projections correct? Does the Designer even use chain lines or chain line boundaries at all? I am not even getting into GD&T where, frankly, it is pretty awful out there and a lot of Designers covering their butts by sticking it in notes without any thought of the feature's function or relationship to other features.

Just some thoughts from a user of drawings.
 

Dave D.
www.qmsi.ca

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I agree, training is the issue. Just like our schools, training is always the first to get cut. Then motivation goes away.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Oh, I agree that training is the real answer, but complete checks need to be done until new drawings are meeting expectations (the staff is trained).  Every new hire that is to produce drawings has to have his work completely checked to verify quality.  Then you can turn them loose.  Cursory and full spot checking is still necessary, by someone who understands what they should be checking (not a peer review).  Just getting a "certificate" that claims you know drafting is no guarantee that bad habits won't surface.
It's the same on the floor.  You don't inspect every part made, but you do a statistical analysis where samples of parts are checked.  If they don't meet expectations, the manufacturing procedure is revisited.  But you have to look for the problems before they go out the door (or in the case of drwings, before they hit the floor).
The last thing I want to do is have to fully check every drawing new hires or the contract firm we are using is producing, but until one comes across that meets expectations, ALL will have to be checked.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I'll have to disagree with several and say that ideally all drawings, with the possible exception of some in house tooling and the like, should be properly checked by a suitably qualified person.

I'm primarily a checker (at least for now), but still make my own drawings sometimes.  The last one I did I'd gone over several times on the screen and printed out a copy and went over it till it looked good.  I passed it to a contract checker we have to take a look and he almost immediately found a mistake, just the one but a mistake that would have caused a problem had it gone out.  People make mistakes.

Training is definitely a big part of the solution (or lack there of the problem) but people also have to be forced encouraged to apply that training.  A slightly trite saying, but arguably fairly true in many cases, says "People do not do what you expect, people do what you inspect".  Everywhere I've been people have been pressed on schedule, it's easy to cut corners on drafting in that situation.

Also, done correctly, having prints checked is itself training in a very practical, hands on, real world, way.  It's pretty much how I learnt to draw, I'd done a little at uni & high school but having my prints bled on is what got me up to par, not some highly theoretical, very brief, training class.  

(We manage to screw this up though, while permanent engineers create many of the drawings I check, the redline incorporation (and sometimes all the detail drafting) is given to interns to do.  So the engineers don't really get the feedback [they are usually asked to approve the redlines but I'm not sure how much attention they pay] and don't really learn.)

The analogy to inspection as dingy puts it isn't quite correct in my mind.  Places I've worked do have full inspection of first articles most of the time, moving to sampling etc after that.  Well the drawing is used to get the data to create & inspect the first article, so it's arguably critical that it's verified for accuracy in its own right.  So I'm still convinced that checking is worth the effort even though I'd be lying if I said I loved doing it myself.

Still this is getting slightly off topic and has been discussed before.  Theres a bunch here who still think checking's relevant, there's others that think it went out with the ark, in my time on this site I'm not sure anyone's ever changed their mind.

I can't say I look forward to seeing what happens round here if the Engineering Director really has persuaded the new manufacturing VP to accept the same crap level of drawings we used to have before I started.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

A real eye-opener for some management types is to collect the cost of changes through your ECO/DCN process to correct poor drawings.  Once you give them "hard proof" over a 6mos or year period, the resistance goes down a bit (until the next pressing project).

I vote for cattle prods attached to red pens.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

MadMango,

Sadly not here.  Our manufacturing mgr tracked ECOs on two projects.  One very large one which was almost fully checked.  Once mid size one with no checking.

The large one had significantly less ECO's than the mid size one.

He used this to convince the old ops VP & help us get in some contract checkers to look at a couple of programs that had gone thru without checking and bring them up to par to allow us to go to other vendors etc.

We have a new VP of operations who our engineering director believes has been convinced to abandon the idea of having good drawings in favour of throwing any old crap out to make it go faster.

Don't let logic & evidence disrupt things.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

KENAT,

Quote:

We have a new VP of operations who our engineering director believes has been convinced to abandon the idea of having good drawings in favour of throwing any old crap out to make it go faster.

   This is the fundamental problem.  If management is not determined to have good drawings and good product, they will not back up the design checkers and inspectors.  Crap will continue to go out the door.  

               JHG

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

The Engineering director has no background in mechanical as far as I know and hadn't even heard of a checker before he started here.  His theory is 'scrap & rework', churn out stuff as fast as possible and fix it if it doesn't work.

What baffles me is they do it to be 'faster' and yet it surely takes longer to correct problems when they occur (and they do occur) than having it done right in the first place.

You save maybe a week or two early in the project for the sake of a month later or possibly worse if the problem isn't found till full production.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I think the other issue is that, in some industries/applications, the crap that goes out the door works 90% of the time (or more). Also, management and sales (both equally driving the direction and policies of the company where I work) don't recognize the "pretty crap" from the quality (though most will catch the "ugly crap", along with the "ugly quality"). If we have components that need to be located precisely, then I will make the drawing to reflect this. However, if it gets in the hands of management/sales, instead of dimensioning for quality, they want it easy to see what something is going to look like. The purpose of the drawing is different for engineering/fabricators/sales/etc... I think this is the issue that needs to be resolved. Perhaps more technical training for the people working with engineers. I also agree with the more drafting training for everybody.

-- MechEng2005

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

2
I too can go back to the days of working on the board and remember having my drawing ripped to pieces for not being pretty enough and compared to some of the works of art they certainly were not, but boy were those guys slow.

That is the first thing that has changed, man hours are now a large cost compared to the past, virtually anything that can be automated is, companies will spend a lot of money on equipment to reduce actual man hours. Spending hours just to make a drawing look pretty does not make economic sense.

Secondly CAD has taken away drawing skills and to a degree the need to check everything. Once I have model something up I do not have to calculate where things are I can pull off any part, cut a section at any point it is all there for me, the only "skill" is in how I dimension it but every dimension will be exactly what it is. So surely I should be expected to make fewer mistakes?

Production techniques also play a big part, so many parts now in automotive are so complicated in shape you could not dimension them even if you wanted to, but that does not matter as a CNC will machine directly to the model, if I can machine a part with 25,000 surfaces on it do I really need to dimension where a hole is?

I am perhaps only speaking about automotive here but I doubt it. Products today are so superior in terms of fit, reliability, performance, safety, speed to market and relative cost, if the problem is as great as this thread implies how can that be? When I go and buy a car I car about all those things, I am not sure I care much how pretty the drawing of the A pillar is.

How many companies prosper who have rows of draughtsman standing at boards creating things of great beauty with a row of checkers looking over their work?
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

ajack.  The thing I spend the most time checking is the tolerancing.  I don't think you mention that in your post.

Just because you have a model doesn't mean you have the tolerancing.

You mention fit in your penultimate paragraph but no mention that part of that comes from the tolerancing.

I don't care how 'pretty' a drawing is.  The main effort of my drawing checking is making sure it's complete (we use some hybrid 3D so for those drawings there are few if any actual dimensions to check) & unambiguous.  

I really only care about 'format' type issues if it affects clarity of intent & could make the drawing ambiguous.

Most of the OPs issues fall into the category of those that could cause lack of clarity or give the wrong requirement.

KENAT,

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

As usual, I agree with KENAT here.  Model Based Definition is being used more than ever, and that greatly relieves the problem of poor drawings.  It does not, however, relieve the problems of poor tolerancing.  Even though the end user can interogate and program to the model, he has to know what tolerances to apply, and which features are affected.  Lettering and line quality don't matter here, but proper tolerancing (in some manner) is still very important.    

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

For anyone enjoying all this 'it's not like it was in the olden days' talk some related threads.  The second one looks like some of the good content was trimmed out for some reason

thread730-219181: We have better tools, but? thread732-222977: Tedium thread730-221206: I Hate Drawings!!!

KENAT,

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I'm capable of making a very nice drawing, in pencil.
Not to MIL standards, mind you, but at least internally coherent and accurate, clear and legible, maybe even pretty.  

All of the CAD systems that I've used get in the way.  They make it easier to change a drawing, and to make an accurate drawing, but legible and pretty are... well, the programmers who write this crap don't understand the words, so it's not a high priority.

I've seem some halfway decent SW drawings (but still instantly recognizable as SW drawings) in our archives, produced when our Engineering Department had about 8 people doing about the same volume of projects.  Those people are all gone.  They've been replaced by 3 people: me (engineer/ manager<conscripted>/designer/drafter), one designer/drafter, and one blithering idiot.  (Don't ask.)

There isn't time to do pretty, even if somehow I could induce SW to be helpful with it, or find the time and the money to take an actual lesson.  Yes, I know how productive SW is; I spent all day today resolving a parametric blowup having to do with toolbox part configurations on the wrong server, and then fighting the too-smart magical drawing generator, generating the same sheet over and over until I got it... well, acceptably awful.

At our last meeting, a customer took the opportunity to disparage the drafter for crossing an extension line with a leader.  He did not know that _I_ am said drafter.  He did not realize that his other choice, other than an ugly drawing, was _no_ drawing in time for his damn meeting.  My tongue still hurts where I bit it.

...

Actually, when I put on my Manager hat, I might have given him an ugly drawing intentionally, even if I had the staff to make good ones.  Said customer spent so much time complaining about how ugly our drawings were, and not so slyly intimating that he used to be a designer, that he completely missed the pieces that were missing, unidentified, and/or wrong.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

KENAT, I do not doubt the importance of tolerancing but as MBD becomes more and more common dimensioning becomes less so or not even an issue, as does checking as all "sizes" are generated from the model.

I think Mike hits the nail on the head, where he says about someone picking up on the ugly drawing but completely missing things that are wrong or missing, that to me is far more important.

If as Mike says above 3 people can now do the work that 8 did before and as I said at least in automotive things can be done quicker, and produce a better finished product are we really going down the wrong road?
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards


>>> I <<< don't think that 3 people can do the work of 8.

The people who hired me apparently do.


I can find no basis in fact or experience for their beliefs.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Quote:

...as does checking as all "sizes" are generated from the model

And you just take the word of the designer that he actually modeled the correct sizes?  I have come across too many model/drawing files whrere the dimension on the drawing is the dimension required, but is not what is modeled.  You still have to check the model thoroughly, just different items than you would on a drawing.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I would see that as something different ewh, to have a different dimension on a drawing to what it is modelled at needs the operator to fudge it (at least on any CAD system I am aware of) that is not a mistake it is someone doing something that is wrong.

Having said that I guess that opens up the whole can of worms that is unilateral v bilateral.
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Quote:

And you just take the word of the designer that he actually modeled the correct sizes?

Yes, in the auto industry, that is how it is done.  Drawings normally state that the model is the "master." If there is a discrepancy between the model and the drawing, the model is correct and the drawing is wrong.

Joe
SW Office 2008 SP5.0
P4 3.0Ghz 3GB
ATI FireGL X1

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

ajack, I must be missing something.  Checking to see a part is fully dimensioned is pretty quick, this is what going to MBD does arguably remove the need for.  Great, that saves a few minutes per drawing or item for checking - although significantly simplifies/speeds the initial design/drafting.  

What takes significantly more time is checking the tolerancing and the correct communication of that tolerancing and other requirements not captured by the nominal geometry.  I don't see MBD saving much time here, in fact in some cases I can imagine it being more timeconsuming.

From what I've seen of other posters in this forum it seems automotive is an area that takes tolerancing fairly seriously.  I appears many other sectors struggle more with this.

I get your point ajack, at the end of the day the drawing the drawing or if you like 'design documentation' (so as to cover models etc) only has to be good enough.

The problem seems to be defining 'good enough'.  Is good enough a half assed sketch or thrown together model with little to no consideration to tolerancing or other 'not nominal geometry' issues?  

Or is 'good enough' design documentation that will probably get what you want from your usual vendor/in house shop but doesn't explicitly define all requirements or really capture design intent for the benefit of future users.  

Or is 'good enough' design documentation that will allow you to source the part from any competant vendor (in relevant field) with a high degree of confidence, will stand up in a court of law as a contract document and captures enough design intent not just to ensure function/fit with the largest possible tolerances but also to allow future users to understand and make changes to it.

While it may very a little by circumstances, I'd usually vote for the latter.

Am I mistaken?

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

i just love this forum!! - just this week i had a detailer make the comment to me after i had checked a drawing of his & bled all over it "i have worked in this business for 30+years & i still get drawings back that look like this!"
not to be a smart a__ i just looked at him & wondered how he had made it this far in 30+years & was still not turnning out decent drawings?? - i am a board taught designer/drafter since i was 18 & i am now 48 & am still amazed at the lack of standards & engineering knowledge that comes thru our company - sad sign of the times

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I am trained as a draftsman but I am now working as an NC Programmer. I have seen first hand where MBD does not simplify things. On several occasions I have had to redraw a part because the engineer did not model the part correctly (read: in a manner that makes using the part practical). For this, I have to use the DRAWING to get my tolerance information so that I can redo their poor work. If the drawing is incoherent (and it usually is because they have had no training and no incentive to make a good drawing. "The model is right isn't it?"), I have to waste my time getting the correct information. Furthermore, I have to explain to the CNC operator why they have no dimensions with which to do the bench inspection that the engineer has required. Instead they have to find someone that knows how to use the cad software that can create a sketch of the dimensions that they are supposed to inspect.

The point of my rant is that just because we are going to MBD does not negate the need for drawings and good drafting/communication skills. If not just to describe the part, at least to communicate to the end user what our intent is.

David

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Quote:

Drawings normally state that the model is the "master." If there is a discrepancy between the model and the drawing, the model is correct and the drawing is wrong
That is how we do our parts also.  Lofted shapes do not lend themselves to dimensioning.  The master model takes precedence.  But when hole sizes for example are modeled at the upper size limit or larger, but are correct on the drawing, scrap is going to be produced unless the model is also checked.  Whoever created the drawing will get his hand slapped, but without a model check this would not have been caught.  That is why our models are checked more thoroughly than our drawings.

Please, let's not get into unilateral tolerancing herewinky smile

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

In my aerospace checking function, many of the bad dimensioning and tolerancing issues I encounter in detail parts and fit of related parts are the result of poor modelling. Often due to bad choice of datums at the outset of the modelling function. As a checker, I only catch these after the drawing is made and submitted, and there is a lot of gripping about how time consuming it is to go back and fix the model to get it right (in Pro/E wildfire3). If you don't know how to draw, you create crummy models too!!

"Duk748: I've met several designers like your person. We call it "1 year of experience 30 times".

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I have always had a problem with how schools teach drafting.  Would we ask a writer to write a book with out learing to read and just showing them all the cool things that Word has?  Dut that is what we do with all of the drafters.  Hear is this program you know how to use it now make a drawing.  This hit close to home for me my dad told me many years ago that reading and making drawing are what engineers do.  This tells the world what we want them to do.

As a side note my company is making all the Mechinal engineers and drafter take a SolidWork test.  And from what I have seen on it I could take the test and pass it and still not be able to make a drawing.

Chris

"In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics." Homer Simpson

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Quote:

A real eye-opener for some management types is to collect the cost of changes through your ECO/DCN process to correct poor drawings.  Once you give them "hard proof" over a 6mos or year period, the resistance goes down a bit (until the next pressing project).

Of course, the flip side of this is that they will simply want to loosen the drawing criteria or try to drop drawings altogether (all without putting the necessary data that used to be on the drawing anywhere else).

Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I'd assumed that, as here, once rully released the only stuff that gets ECO'd due to 'poor drawings' is normally the stuff where the poor drawing has actually caused a hick-up in production.  

I don't think I've ever seen an ECO change to a fully released drawing purely because someone noticed something they didn't like without it causing production issues.  

KENAT,

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Quote (KENAT):

I don't think I've ever seen an ECO change to a fully released drawing purely because someone noticed something they didn't like without it causing production issues.

Ha, Kenat. Your branch is definitely different from mine... That happens about once a month, here.

V

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Same here, KENAT.  If it wasn't caught by whoever checked and approved it, it would stay unless it actually effected part fabrication.  If an ECO did have to be written, then the little stuff could be corrected at that time with little extra effort.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Around here, drawing changes that don't effect fabrication are noted and changed after the part is out the door. It's simply a lot simplier and less paperwork if the change is for a possible future fabrication than a work in progress...

Unfortunately, by the time the project is complete, the person with the notes has a new project in their lap and rarely do the drawings actually get corrected...

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Yeah, that happened to me on my first big job.

The Project Manager caught me updating drawings after the units for his project were fabricated, and put a stop to it, rightly from one perspective, since HIS project was done.

Then I got laid off because all my stuff worked and they didn't need me anymore.

Then they got contracts for more, built them to the obsolete prints, and got to do some serious re-work.  For which they revised the prints.

I heard from my friends that they blamed me for not updating the drawings.  Hey, I tried.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

2
Engineers are NOT draftsmen.   I didn't go to engineering school to learn how to make drawings.   The real problem with crummy drawings is 100% the fault of corproate management.  The bean counters hear how "easy" CAD programs are and the wheels start spinning.   They figure they can save a mint by laying of the drafting department and making the engineers do their own drawings.  These decision makers don't understand, nor do they care about drafting standards.   

Apparently companies today see little value in checking either.  Both my current employer and previous employer once upon a time had a very senior designer with the officoal title "checker". These positions went away at some point and now drawing are typically only checked by the person who created them.

My current company has grown about threefold in the engineering/drafting department over the past year.   With people of all different experience levels we are seeing errors go up.  I am really pushing to bring back some sort of formalized checking process.  

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

spongebob, at the same time though.  If your job duties require drafting shouldn't you either learn to do it adequately, or find another job?

KENAT,

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I'm shopping at a place where drawings standards ARE enforced--a So. California aerospace plant. They have been trying for a few months to hire a couple of Senior Checkers, 20+ years experience, direct or contract. Can't find them. Those that have responded so far think the know checking, but they don't.
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I have to side with spongebob here.  While it is his responsibility to learn enough to draft effectively, it is really up to management to see that he gets the guidance required to achieve this, thus they should bring back the checkers.
I still avoid checking my own work unless I haven't looked at it for a period of time.  It is to easy to be blind to your own mistakes.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Sshh CheckerRon.  Our 2 contract checkers might hear you and they live closer to your place than ours.

I'm not sure I can take doing it all by myself againwinky smile.

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I have only met one person here in So Cal that can fit that job. Everybody else doesn't come close. Standards are just not enforced.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08; CATIA V5
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Oh I wasn't knocking the point about checkers, I think my views on that are well documented.

I also agree that in many situations it's probably more efficient for dedicated designer/drafters to do most of the detailing.

However, if your job description (be it formal or just reality) requires you to do drafting I figure you either learn to do it, or find another job.  I get sick of Engineers saying they didn't go to school to learn drafting etc. complaining about it all the time & churning out crap making little to no effort to improve.  Either accept that the reality of work isn't what you expected and learn to do it (at least until you're in a position to change things), or find another job.

I learnt barely any drafting at uni but it was required by my first job so I learnt to do it, and I think reasonably well, mostly by having my drawings bled on as well as by looking at the standards and good examples.

I am also certainly not absolving management for their part in creating this issue.
 

KENAT,

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I think we're on the same side here.  If it is an engineers task to create drawings, he should learn to do it correctly.  Having someone to bleed all over your drawings is a VERY effective way to learn the proper way to create them, and for that management needs to recognize the value of employing checkers.
I took drafting classes all through high school, aced my college drafting classes, but still had drawings with more red than white in them when I was first employed as a drafter.  It is unrealistic to expect engineers with little drafting training to create mistake free drawings without oversite.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I agree the engineers will benefit from feeback, but a lot don't seem to care or try to get better.  I'll redline the same kind of errors today as I did on the same persons drawings a year ago.

On the other hand, while not succesful, I always aimed to not make the same mistake twice.

I also didn't just rely on the redlining, I'd ask questions and do my own research of the standards etc.  While a few people here occasionally ask questions up front, the only guy that would do his own research left about 6 months ago.

KENAT,

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I know the feeling of correcting the same mistakes a year later... banghead
It seems like the most effective way to get it into their heads is to hold up a hot project that they are responsible for until they produce a good drawing.  Do that a few times, and they generally get the message that if they want it out the door quickly, they have to start paying more attention.  Of course, you do that at your own risk.
Most days though, I feel it's a losing battle.  Regardless, I still dig in my heels when it comes to acceptable drawings.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

And for the record, I don't do drawings.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Another problem is that management types routinely confuse the term "CAD operator" with "draftsman" or "designer".   

I have worked with a couple of these folks whose only qualification is that they took a Pro/E training class.  They have no background in the fundamentals whatsoever.  
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

True story:

At my first job out of college (1994) I worked with this woman who held a college degree in interior design.  She had trouble finding work in her field, so she took a CAD training class and ended up getting hired as a mechanical drafter.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

At least she wasn't hired as a designer or engineer winky smile

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

At my last company we lost our checker. Our manager liked the girl working in the copy room, so she became our checker.
For several years we argued and fought. She eventually quit, then he followed. Both were married to others, but rumors flew about the two of them.
Drawings errors were high during her time as 'checker'.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08; CATIA V5
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

(OP)
The two lead desingers I work with actually have the best GD & T knowledge in my company and are more than familiar with the standards.  And I realize some engineers/designers think they are above drafting but wouldn't you want to make sure that some drafter didn't just kill your design on the drawing?  Because if it fails guess where everyones pointing their fingers.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Chancey, that's another part of my reasoning for why it's not a bad idea for Engineers to have reasonable familiariy with drafting skills.  Even if they're fortunate enough to have someone else preparing their prints shouldn't they know enough to recognize major errors - especially if it's in part of industry where they have to stamp it.

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I see that Chancey had two lead desingers. I guess they couldn't carry a tune. blllttt

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Drafting is basically a language to translate design intent into manufacturing. So if the engineer doesn't understand drafting (whether he does the drafting or not), then I don't see how he/she is going to be able to convey their design to anyone else (be it drafter, machinist, or the like).

If you had a shaft with a bunch of steps and cutouts, you should know the best way to dimension the shaft to convey design intent while still making it as easy as possible for the machinist. If you dimension everything all-over the place in the model (not from the end at which the machinist will chuck the part in the lathe, for example), then you're either a)giving the drafter extra work for fix your model, or b)giving the machinist extra math to do, that could have been avoided by your "knowledge" of drafting.

Laziness is akin to stupidity, in my opinion.  

V

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

I have seen my fair share of drawings on the shop floor where the machinist had calculated "new dimensions" simply because they didn't feel like changing his set-up.  Usually their response was, "Its all adds up."

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Yes, not all machinists approach all parts in the same manner.  As long as he can produce an acceptable part based on the original tolerancing, the machinist should be free to approach it as he sees fit.

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003
 

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

Well the GD&T mantra I have heard over and over is: "Dimension for inspection. Let the shop figure out how to make it."
That doesn't mean you don't consider manufacturability, it just means you don't cater your dimensions to accomodate manufacturing vs function and inspection.

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

The standards are the same ... the skills have degraded.  My university engineering program was one of the last in Canada to have a decent drafting course, that was way way way back around '88 (not 1800's, either).  We had two profs; one drawled on about nothing of value to the course, and the other was considered an anal-retentive-bastard ... the kind that should be teaching the basics so that you get it right!  Many of my colleagues that went to other schools didn't do much CAD, never mind a single board drawing.  

With the high degree of automation in CAD, some designers don't even have to lay out the views & dimensions, much less actually apply GD&T.  If you're seeing solid lines instead of hidden lines, it's likely because the CAD administrator isn't a mechanical engineer, and doesn't realize that line thickness & style actually convey information, and therefore haven't set the basic settings appropriately.

Within the Western, industrial-based economies, we've seen a continual degradation and "dumbing-down" of design, machining, finishing and inspection processes within industry.  We slid into a rut that we couldn't dig our way back out of.  I've seen a mixed bag of quality (engineering, manufacturing & inspection) coming out of lesser-developed industrial countries, and they've been quickly catching up to and surpassing our abilities, with a fraction of our infrastructure costs.  If they're producing comparable quality (good or bad) at a fraction of the cost, is it any wonder we're in a tail spin?

Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services  www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc.  www.tec-ease.com

RE: Degradation of Drawing Standards

"...an anal-retentive-bastard ... the kind that should be teaching the basics so that you get it right."
My kind of job, if it only paid better!winky smile

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

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