Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
(OP)
Check it out:
http://www .boston.co m/business /articles/ 2008/12/02 /boeing_en gineers_ap prove_work _contract/
I'm not sure if this helps us or hurts us as a profession. What's your view?
http://www
I'm not sure if this helps us or hurts us as a profession. What's your view?
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."





RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
However, they can also suck, as my own limited experience working a union job showed me.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
TheTick hit this nail square on the head.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Yep, I'd sure be disappointed if my salary didn't include that merit-based component- nothing p*sses a person off more than earning the same as an idiot or a slacker. But since salaries are supposed to be confidential, how would you know you were being ripped off, unless you broke the rules?!
Would I be just as happy to make the idiot or slacker's wage if we BOTH made TWICE what I do now? Hmmm- interesting question!
Engineers have seen their compensation levels slip relative to just about every other regulated profession, to the point where we're now earning in relative terms about HALF what we once did. Unionization wouldn't have stopped our slide toward becoming the "commodity" amongst professions, but would it have helped to slow the slide?
Hope not!
The big problem is that a union makes the idiots and slackers harder to fire- think about the sort of workplace that could produce!
Gawd, I hate union rules, especially the "job differentiation" rules about who is permitted do what. I was on a site where you needed a carpenter to open a crate, a forklift driver to take it over where it needed to be unloaded, a millwright to rig the load and a crane operator to push the buttons on the little POS 2-ton overhead crane they had. Four tasks requiring four guys- all accomplished in our shop by one guy trained properly to do them all. Which shop do you think was more efficient?! And there's no risk here of being "grieved" if you pick up a wrench. If our manufacturing operation were like that unionized shop, much less my engineering office, I'd go nuts right quick!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
There is something in Boeings history that will explain it.
"Organized labor- the people who brought you the weekend."
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Most companies that have unions, deserve 'em.
When I'm job searching, one thing I check out in a new employer is if they have a union of any kind. Previous union history is an indication of a problematic corporate culture.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Unions tend to morph into old boys clubs disturbingly quickly. More interested in the union leaders objectives etc than the members. The cost of some unions is also ridiculous in relation to the benefit from being a member, especially for newer employees. The one union job I worked, the union was almost just a protection racket.
That said, my wifes union is very cheap, so it's at least value for money.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I am all for union engineers. I would join if there were a union to represent me. Engineering is a trade, in my opinion.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
They had their time, but they don't work anymore.
Companies are hurting now because of unions.
Their greed's, laziness, and ignorance are killing this country (US).
Remember when the union went on strike at Ralph's grocery stores? I had my daughter with me going to buy milk. An idiot raised his strike sign at me and threatened to hit me if I passed.
I sent my daughter in to get the manager while I turned to threatened him back that the stick will be somewhere else if he blinks, and I would slit his throat.
They backed off screaming at me.
They are ruthless and do not care about economies or the welfare of others, only their own jobs and benefits.
The union at Boeing decided to strike for 6 weeks during the worst time of this recession. Airplane shipments and other work were delayed or put on hold because of them, causing billions of $ in losses to the company. Now, they face layoff's to make up the losses.
Does the union care?? No. They received their little bonus and short contract.
Go on strike and lose your house or your job? No sympathy from me.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
ctopher,
Sounds like the unions in the US are where the British unions were in the late 60's and early 70's. Now the unions and the major industries that spawned them are gone, and so are the jobs. It ain't all good once the unions are gone, just very different and with a new set of problems. A moderate union can be a good thing, and a union who can work with the management is better. Unfortunately most companies where the employees feel the need to unionise tend to have a management who have failed them: a happy workforce who are looked after by their employer has little need to unionise; a company where the workforce are unhappy enough to unionise already has problems.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
But over the years, greed has corrupted the unions and companies/managers let them get away with it.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Aurthur Scargill was set to be president for life of his miner's union. Nw there is virtually no coal mining in the UK.
Red Robbo was doing his bit at British Leyland and we all know what happened to that.
Interesting.
When Nissan built their car plant in the UK you couldn't have found a greater contrast between Nissan in Sunderland and British Leyland in Birmingham. I visited both (this was when I were nowt but a lad).
At BL they were potting windscreen wash into the cars from a pallet of bottles. Well, they would have been doing so if the production line was running and it never was when I visited, it was always stopped for some reason and the workers could always find a reason.
At Nissan I watched a worker being practically dragged along by a car as he attempted to remedy a problem without stopping the production line and it is notable that he did want to fix the problem rather than let it get sorted under warranty. Plus, they would use their breaks to load up the ready use bins at the side of the conveyor.
It was claimed they made better Nissan cars in Sunderland than they did in Japan.
I guess the Leyland image at that time was such that the word "quality" had no meaning.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Perhaps the hacksmanship that passes for engineering under the U.S. industrial exemption is a trade.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Engineering is a profession. Thus, the initials P.E. after my name.
BTW, I was working for Boeing back in the late 90s when the SPEAA strike happened. Being raised in a blue-collar house, I understood the importance of supporting your fellow employee, so I didn't work during the strike. But, I also was not part of the union (not a dues paying member, anyway) nor did I walk the picket line. Pointless, in my opinion.
What really pissed me off, and why I won't ever work for Boeing again, is that I was represented by the union even if I wasn't a member. And the dues only went to pay for the union reps salaries - no strike fund or any member support. And, the union did set a salary cap for grade levels; so even though I worked harder and better than my tenured counterparts, I could not get more than a cost-of-living raise because that's what was stated in the union's contract.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Back in hey-day of Unions, they were beneficial because they represented the best intentions of the members. Coal mining unions were the only things keeping miners safe(r) from the greedy management. Auto unions kept the workers from being abused so they actually had time to spend with families. (Although Mr. Ford paid his employees so well that I can't believe they ever needed to unionize.)
Now, unions exist for the sake of their own existence. They take advantage of their members more than they benefit them. Company management (although still greedy) tend to sway towards keeping the company in business. Unions are causing company management to make poor business decisions that put the livelihood of all employees in jeopardy. That, to me, is worse than not getting a raise one year, or paying more for health benefits, or having to fund my own 401k/pension plan.
I say it's time to get rid of unions, or at least redefine their purpose. And a white-collar union? I didn't work my ass off in college to have my future decided by a bunch of suites in a board room applying blanket policies to my career path as they pad their own wallets.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I've already been told I'm not an engineer because I dont' have PE, so now I'm actually a "tradesman", "hacksman", "rubber stamper".
Oh well.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I'm with you, KENAT. I guess we're just unlicensed hacksmen.
Guess I better sell all those expensive textbooks I bought.
V
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Needless to say I am presenting the damned confirmatory tests. (I can't believe I knew all this stuff way back when)
Getting back to the OP's, I have yet to see something good coming out of a union. Most people I've met that like unions, I dont like. But that's just me
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I am not a P.E. does that make me any less of a "professional"? Big deal, you passed a silly test and send in your dues check every year.
Personally I think they should either do away with PE licensing all together or make it a requirement across the board that anyone calling themselves an "engineer" must be a P.E regardless of the circumstances.
If I were to do the exact same type of work I am doing today, but on my own using the term "engineer" I could be brought up on criminal charges, yet a manufacturing company can hire any dope off the street and legally call him an "engineer" even if he dropped out of school in the 10th grade.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Look at this website. This website is about engineering professionals, not just professional engineers. Being a professional is about your work ethic and manner as much as it is your technical abilities.
Most countries other than the United States reserve the term engineer for only those that have passed the silly test. The US is one of the few countries that allow companies to pervert the title and apply it to all "engineers" who are industry exempt. You get rid of the exemption, and you will find every engineer has a P.E. after their name. This would help reduce the number of dopes brought off the street and also firm up the respect that engineers deserve for their profession.
Those that aren't engineers but still perform engineering-like functions would be called things like designer or engineering technician.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Your high horse just left, you better go catch him.
V
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I am not a P.E., mostly because it is simply not required for what I do. If industry required it, I would have it. I am previously on record here in Eng-tips stating that I would willingly surrender the title of "engineer" if it meant that the profession was tightening its standards.
There's more to being a professional than just "doing a good job". Being a member of a profession means that one has more responsibility and accountability to more people: to peers and public as well as to one's employer. Being a PE is more than passing a silly test (that many can not pass). As a practicing PE, one is responsible and accountable to peers, public, and clients.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Well apparently some union slacker who was too busy minding others peoples business to do his own job had seen what we were doing. A few days later we both get a notice to appear at a hearing. The union had filed a grievance against me for moving a piece of equipment across the factory floor. We did not get in any trouble because we were following orders, but as a result the incident, the company agreed to pay a monetary fine to the Union. What a freakin joke!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
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RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Well, it so happens that production got delayed, so the product wasn't ready to test. It should be ready by 8:00p. OK, the test engineer and I decided to stick around. At 11:00p, the line was running again and we finally had everything we needed so we could run the test, except for the union electrician to plug in the equipment.
Literally. The test engineer and I could hook up the load cells, DAQ, and run the cables, but we physically could not take the power cord from the equipment and put it into the wall socket. A union electrician had to do that. Since it was so late, there weren't any around. Guess what, I plugged that sucker in.
A week later, I get a call into my managers office with a warning about performing duties outside of my role. I should have called the electrician, woke him up, made him drive his ass into work, to plug in the equipment. "That's stupid" was my response.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I was in the machine shop chatting with the operator about some issues with a design modification I did. Nothing big, he just wanted some clarification. Well, the part was over 60lbs, so OSHA says that requires a 2-man lift or crane.
The machinist was unionized, and he was a certified crane operator. So, he rigged the part and began lifting it with the crane. He was holding the pendant with one hand and guiding the part with the other hand. Since he just wanted to tip the part up on it's side, he just rigged it with a loose band. The rigging slipped. His hand was under the part so I reached and stabilized the part, saving his hand. From there, I continued to help guide the part so we could look at the area in question.
By the way, it was just him and I in the area at the time, but a few passers-by were on the walkway going through.
The next day, I get a call into my managers office stating - again - that I am not to perform union work. But, there was not going to be any punative action because the situation resulted due to a safety incident.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
A coworker of mine was on business travel. While there, he got to tour the inside of a plane during carpeting. In this particular instance, the tradesman usually carpets the plane by himself. To pull the carpet tight, he places a weight on one side of the aisle and goes to the either side and tugs. Well, since my coworker was standing right there, the tradesman asked him to stand on the edge of the carpet for him and hold it down while the tradesman pulled it tight.
As this was going on, the two of them were still chatting the host returned to pick up my coworker for the remainder of the tour. My coworker got reported to the union for performing the union (carpeting) labor. He didn't even work there! As a matter of fact, he was just standing there.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I used to poke at the worker's union in University and loved it! Had a little bit of an issue picking up my graduation certificate, though, but I did at the end
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
May be true but it's how you employer looks at you that counts.
Most don't share your view.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Can we assume that you call an electrician when you need to change a lightglobe at home?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
"...Engineers found out and were outraged...." and then they blockaded the plant, engaging in violent picket-line confrontation with police?
I wonder which is the more likely?
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. - Hunter S. Thompson
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I agree with most of you that unionizing Engineering is not a good idea. I don't think it will buy us anything. However, I see some of the posts points that Engineering seems like a trade. I guess this view is more oversees than here in the USA. For me for the past few years I have been treated as a professional by the companies that I have worked for and have been woed by. Not sure if this is the same oversees.
It will always be us against them attitude with union. I myself have been grieved twice one for taking a panel off a rack and the other was for moving a file cabinet from one office to my office which was only two rooms down.
If anybody is from Boeing, please give us your insight of the union and how it benefited or hurt your carrier in Boeing or even finding work in other companies.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
While working at Boeing, I was represented by the engineers union there and I was there during the first strike they had.
It absolutely killed my career. I was a fresh grad, kind of a hot-shot like most are, but I also worked by arse off to be able to learn and prove myself. There were "lifers" in my group that didn't do squat.
I went in to my manager's office for my annual review. Each time I came out with a 3.5% raise. At the time, less than inflation. Why? Because that was the negotiated raise the company had with the union. And, as mentioned earlier, even though I wasn't a member of the union, I was still represented by them. So, no matter how hard I worked or what I was able to accomplish, I got the same raise as the guy sitting around doing nothing all day - that I ended up having to do his work as well as mine because I actually took pride in my work.
And, because the union had organized the seniority policy as well, when lay-offs came around I was the first on the chopping block. It didn't matter that I worked harder, better, and got more done than my elder-counterparts. They had seniority so they got to stick around and I was sent walking. (Actually, my boss recognized my abilities and managed to "hide" me from 2 rounds of layoffs. Nice guy! The 3rd round was coming and I knew there was no safe place for me, so I left on my own terms.)
To this day, even though I worked with some great people; and the technologies I worked on were incredible; the entire Boeing concept leaves a bad taste in my mouth and things would have to get very gloomy for me before I would ever consider returning to work for that company.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. - Hunter S. Thompson
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
1.) I express my opionions as my own, I don't much care for those who jump on the bandwagon and hide behind a group. So why am I in favor of unions? Because I think it is in my best interest. I don't see employers volunteering anything to employees.
2.) I don't pick up tools or try to do the work of the crafts out of respect. I believe it is hypocritical to say that crafts people should not do engineering work and then turn around and expect to be able to do as I see fit in their jurisdiction.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I believe in the division of labour: there are different tasks that are appropriate to the skills, training AND compensation levels of labourers, tradespeople, drafters and designers, technicians and technologists, and engineers. I respect these roles and the training and skill it takes to fill them well- but I definitely see engineers as the pinnacle of this heirarchy due to their education and their public protection mandate.
There are a few distinctions between roles which are set in law. Though I design pressure piping and direct the work of pipefitters every day, I am still not permitted to run a natural gas line because I carry no gasfitter's license. That's an appropriate measure for safety reasons.
There is NO WAY that I will respect petty, arbitrary, protectionist distinctions between these fields which exist SOLELY to provide people with a false sense of job security. Union-enforced job differentiation rules stymie an organization's efficiency and build arbitrary barriers between co-workers who should, indeed MUST, see themselves as working together toward a common purpose if the organization is to succeed.
Engineers who never get their hands dirty are the bane of our profession. Engineers who are prevented from EVER getting their hands dirty on company time by union rules etc. are going to be forever handicapped in one of their key roles: keeping the constructors and maintenance staff in mind when doing their designs.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
http
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I guess the rule was no one worked faster that the slowest rate of the slowest worker.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
While I like the idea of unions helping workers bargain etc. with employers, in practice they don't seem so great much of the time.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
On the other hand OHSA is taking over that task and further making the unions a relic of the past.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
And it is not the first time I see this. In the Volkswagen plant in Puebla, Mexico, many years ago, they union chose to have 50% of the workforce laid off rather than taking a 35% pay cut.
I despise modern unions
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
It's probally better to allow a judge to modify the contract and force a lowering of the union pay. And if they strike, it lowers production of cars, which isen't a problem right now.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
On the other hand (no pun intended!), the fitters' hall sent a guy with hooks for both hands to work a high-pressure steam pipe welding job... The guy never lasts more than a day on each job before being sent back to the hall, but he gets a guaranteed 4 hours pay for showing up.
(and by the way, he didn't lose his hands on the job; he blew them off fishing with dynamite -- TWICE)
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I have climbed scaffolding and walk across catwalks built by both, and have seen both cr*p and superior craftsmanship.
I have also seen union workers cost the company more $$ by taking longer to build. A lot of them have the attitude that they can't be fired and can work overtime.
I have also worked with union engineers cut corners on designs to finish a job sooner hoping for a raise, promotion, or bonus. then they work overtime to fix the problem.
We don't need unions, we need management that understand what they are managing.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Unions might, just might, still have a place un some undeveloped countries (how I hate that term). But they are way past their usefulness in countries where there are government bodies that will attend a legal case presented by a worker, being safety related, working conditions related, etc...
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
funny, most of the government jobs did end every six years (in this case) but the unions just stuck around.
Next government was corrupt too.
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Those guys must have read a Chinese translation of Orwell's "Animal Farm"...
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
In the weak and no union atomspheres, the line people seemed to see there coworkers as part of the brotherhood, just like the unions.
The biggest difference was the interface between the line managers and the design engineers, and safety people.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
As it stands I believe there is a suggestion that a Master's Deg. be required to sit for the PE Exam by future Grads.
Not that it truly matters, a if you are a good diligent worker with a BS you will have employment just not the title on your card.
this message has been approved for citizen to elect kepharda 2008
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Sometimes seems like it now. As the PE stamp should weed out the bone heads, but it dosen't.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I'm not sure that licensing the exempt industries makes a great deal of sense, although from a selfish perspective I would be fully in favour of an AMA style union that regulated the supply of engineers and enforced where they could be used. I doubt the employers or academics would support that and would in fact do everything in their power to destroy it, as they have in the UK.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
JIM
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I think they also sell your mailing address
But the coloring books are nice.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Tell me about it.
"Do we cut costs by being more efficient?"
"Nah, just don't put those bolts in there and cut that corner. They'll never know."
V
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
This should be very funny indeed.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Even in Canada where we have a more comprehensive licensure program than you do in the US, the licensing bodies are prevented from doing effective lobbying on behalf of their licensees- and membership in the advocacy bodies who CAN do this lobbying is voluntary. The advocacy bodies therefore have limited membership and can't afford to do anything.
For some reason, the doctors and to a lesser extent the lawyers don't suffer from this problem. Perhaps it's because unlike engineering, both of these are "true" professions- practicing without a license in either case lands you not only with a fine, but in jail- with a very good likelihood of being caught.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
And in fact there is now a shortage a technictions, because so many of them are doing the eazy stuff for the engineers.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Well, given laws of supply and demand, because those there are will get paid more.
May not be best for industry or the country/world but good for those with the degree.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Though I am against unions, I do wish the US would restrict the use of the term "engineer"
The reason I dislike unions is I have seen what they do. I use to work at a grain elevator and they had to lay off people and guess who got cut. The non-union people. Though the point of irony about being non-union while on that job was I got paid 20% more and generally ended up with the better assignments, if you could call it that
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
In Canada, according to the 2006 census, 2/3 of those persons with engineering degrees were employed outside engineering occupations. That's per the Engineering and Technology Labour Market Study completed last year by Engineers Canada.
That group of 2/3 didn't all leave the profession to become patent lawyers and medical researchers...
That HARDLY sounds like a profession with any kind of a labour shortage! In fact, to me it's plain evidence of a profession with a MASSIVE over-supply - an over-supply which has led to commoditization of our services and the destruction of what once WAS a profession!
"Engineering jobs going unfilled" in my experience is a baseless statement. There is NO shortage of engineers in Canada. Plenty of hype and media hay is made from localized shortages of particular skillsets, particularly in cyclical industries, but these sorts of shortages are VERY different than a true labour shortage.
Cyclical industries don't hire adequate numbers of young engineers in the "bust" times, and hence come up short of experienced people during "boom" times. You can't fix that problem by cranking out more grads. In fact, you can't really solve that problem via generalized immigration either (Canada is proof positive of that!).
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
So if you like high voltage, and can work with three phase voltage, there are jobs.
However you maybe right as those other engineers in the other department down the hall don't seem as happy.
So what's with the shortage of civil engineers that I hear about?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
No labour shortage- only succession planning problems, and firms who don't like to hire young and TRAIN, because successive recessions proved it to be no longer necessary!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Nevertheless, universities continue to pump out engineering grads. Where are those people going to work? China? India?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Some time soon the universities and students who turned their backs on the 'old' industries like power generation & transmission and the heavy process industries like steel and chemicals will wake up to the fact that the old industries are desperate for people with the right education, training, and experience. There are jobs there, but the education system is producing the wrong product. I don't exclusively blame the universities - the industries created much of the problem themselves through underinvestment and recruitment freezes a decade or two ago.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Nevertheless, our government and engineering societies are trying to encourage young people to seek careers in engineering. The universities continue to pump out engineering grads. Everyont thinks that if we make more engineers, then we will some-how regain former glory and lead the world again. If we don't consider what's going on after engineering school and implement some changes, then we will have a lot of recent grad engineers working at Starbucks and McDonalds rather than designing and creating things. It really doesn't make sense to me.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Throughout my career there have been reports of an imminent or existing shortage of engineers. Yet engineering salaries have grown no faster than those of any other profession (considerably LESS rapidly than those of many other professions).
Engineering programs in Canada are reportedly still turning away 5 applicants for every one they select, and Canada is still permitting the immigration of nearly half as many engineers that we graduate from all of Canada's universities combined- even during a severe recession with escalating unemployment rates.
Over 2/3 of engineering graduates in Canada already are NOT working as engineers. Yet the reports of "shortages" are still there in the media.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF ENGINEERS- there is only a shortage of engineering employers willing to hire, train and properly compensate engineers to satisfy their needs.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
I don't blame journalists, I blame the policy-makers of two decades ago who virtually stopped recruitment into the power industry, embarking instead on a frenzy of cost-cutting, down-sizing, recruitment freezes, and the wholesale decimation a reasonably well-run state industry.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Just one thought, it may be that there are more than enough Engineering Graduates, but are there enough 'good' graduates? Maybe encouraging more into engineering the aim is to get more 'good' graduates, more so than just the number of graduates per se?
It seems like a lot of the cutting edge people in my little part of the hi-tech world weren't 'born & raised' in the good ol' US of A.
Now whether this is because my place abuses the H1B visa system (possible) or because there genuinely aren't 'born & raised' Americans willing/able to do the job or a myriad of possible other reasons that cross my mind I'm not sure.
I've seen it suggested that for some time the 'brightest & best' potential 'USA born & raised' engineers aren't going into Engineering (at least, prior the current economic issues) but into other more lucrative fields.
Just throwing out other ideas to consider, and not meaning to denigrate recent grads or anything.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
When the prequalification is 10+ yrs of previous experience in a particular industry, is there EVER anything other than a shortage?! COULD there ever be anything other than a shortage under those conditions?!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
And when I retire in 10 to 15 years, there will probally still be a shortage of power engineers with 10+ years experence.
Part of the shortage of power engineers is the lack of schools teaching power. And part of it is people just can't handle the math, or have the wrong attitude.
If it wasen't for a shortage of linemen, I'd believe you. But the fact is there is a shortage people interested in this industry.
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
Now that manufacturing is in the tank, and I recently lost my job, I've been looking to get back into the utility industry again. At least now, they are hiring people again, but I have noticed that there isn't much for seasoned veterans like myself. Lots of lower-level positions requiring 2-3 years of experience. One recruiter actually told me that my 14 years of experience in power is no longer worth anything because I have been out of the industry for so long!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
However there are schools for refresher for this.
Most companies are looking for 2-3 years because they can't find more experenced people. In the area of project managment there should not be any problems with a gap in the industry.
In the area of power production there is a shortage of controls, and plant engineers, which are probally eazy to find through out the US.
And many jobs are no longer posted, as the companies just could not find people in a reasonable timeframe.