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Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.
31

Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

10
Boeing engineers have been union for quite some time.  They've even been on strike.  "No nerds, no birds!"

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

If it works for them great.  Unions certainly can be of benefit for their members.

However, they can also suck, as my own limited experience working a union job showed me.
 

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I'd be making less money as union.  I'd be stuck at someone else's pay scale with no merit increases or bonuses.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.


TheTick hit this nail square on the head.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

2
Unions were created to "defend" exploited workers from the abusive patrons. Unions now are to epxploit the patrons and the good workers for the union leaders benefit. The bad workers just coast by scratching their meaty ends. In my opinion, though

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

5
I'm of mixed mind on this one-

Yep, I'd sure be disappointed if my salary didn't include that merit-based component-  nothing p*sses a person off more than earning the same as an idiot or a slacker.  But since salaries are supposed to be confidential, how would you know you were being ripped off, unless you broke the rules?!

Would I be just as happy to make the idiot or slacker's wage if we BOTH made TWICE what I do now?  Hmmm- interesting question!

Engineers have seen their compensation levels slip relative to just about every other regulated profession, to the point where we're now earning in relative terms about HALF what we once did.  Unionization wouldn't have stopped our slide toward becoming the "commodity" amongst professions, but would it have helped to slow the slide?

Hope not!  

The big problem is that a union makes the idiots and slackers harder to fire- think about the sort of workplace that could produce!  

Gawd, I hate union rules, especially the "job differentiation" rules about who is permitted do what.  I was on a site where you needed a carpenter to open a crate, a forklift driver to take it over where it needed to be unloaded, a millwright to rig the load and a crane operator to push the buttons on the little POS 2-ton overhead crane they had.  Four tasks requiring four guys- all accomplished in our shop by one guy trained properly to do them all.  Which shop do you think was more efficient?! And there's no risk here of being "grieved" if you pick up a wrench.  If our manufacturing operation were like that unionized shop, much less my engineering office,  I'd go nuts right quick!   

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Stronger leadership is needed in the various engineering disciplines, but unionizing isn't the way to do it.  
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

2
"Workers don't cause unions, Companies do"
There is something in Boeings history that will explain it.

"Organized labor- the people who brought you the weekend."

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I go along with BJC.

Most companies that have unions, deserve 'em.

When I'm job searching, one thing I check out in a new employer is if they have a union of any kind. Previous union history is an indication of a problematic corporate culture.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Trust me, lack of a union is not guarantee either.

Unions tend to morph into old boys clubs disturbingly quickly.  More interested in the union leaders objectives etc than the members.  The cost of some unions is also ridiculous in relation to the benefit from being a member, especially for newer employees.  The one union job I worked, the union was almost just a protection racket.

That said, my wifes union is very cheap, so it's at least value for money.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Companies cause unions.  Unions cause ghost-towns.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

3
A union contract forms a floor for your benefit level, not a ceiling.  There are plenty of union workers in the construction industry who are paid more than the scale wage.  

I am all for union engineers.  I would join if there were a union to represent me.  Engineering is a trade, in my opinion.  

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I'm not afraid to say that I am anti-union.
They had their time, but they don't work anymore.
Companies are hurting now because of unions.
Their greed's, laziness, and ignorance are killing this country (US).

Remember when the union went on strike at Ralph's grocery stores? I had my daughter with me going to buy milk. An idiot raised his strike sign at me and threatened to hit me if I passed.
I sent my daughter in to get the manager while I turned to threatened him back that the stick will be somewhere else if he blinks, and I would slit his throat.
They backed off screaming at me.

They are ruthless and do not care about economies or the welfare of others, only their own jobs and benefits.

The union at Boeing decided to strike for 6 weeks during the worst time of this recession. Airplane shipments and other work were delayed or put on hold because of them, causing billions of $ in losses to the company. Now, they face layoff's to make up the losses.
Does the union care?? No. They received their little bonus and short contract.

Go on strike and lose your house or your job? No sympathy from me.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

2
I love the Tick's comment. So much truth in so few words.

ctopher,

Sounds like the unions in the US are where the British unions were in the late 60's and early 70's. Now the unions and the major industries that spawned them are gone, and so are the jobs. It ain't all good once the unions are gone, just very different and with a new set of problems. A moderate union can be a good thing, and a union who can work with the management is better. Unfortunately most companies where the employees feel the need to unionise tend to have a management who have failed them: a happy workforce who are looked after by their employer has little need to unionise; a company where the workforce are unhappy enough to unionise already has problems.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I agree.
But over the years, greed has corrupted the unions and companies/managers let them get away with it.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Ah, the good old days of King Aurthur and Red Robbo.
Aurthur Scargill was set to be president for life of his miner's union. Nw there is virtually no coal mining in the UK.
Red Robbo was doing his bit at British Leyland and we all know what happened to that.

Interesting.
When Nissan built their car plant in the UK  you couldn't have found a greater contrast between Nissan in Sunderland and British Leyland in Birmingham. I visited both (this was when I were nowt but a lad).

At BL they were potting windscreen wash into the cars from a pallet of bottles. Well, they would have been doing so if the production line was running and it never was when I visited, it was always stopped for some reason and the workers could always find a reason.

At Nissan I watched a worker being practically dragged along by a car as he attempted to remedy a problem without stopping the production line and it is notable that he did want to fix the problem rather than let it get sorted under warranty. Plus, they would use their breaks to load up the ready use bins at the side of the conveyor.

It was claimed they made better Nissan cars in Sunderland than they did in Japan.
I guess the Leyland image at that time was such that the word "quality" had no meaning.


 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Engineering is not a trade.  It is a profession.  God knows we hear enough complaining of the lack of respect that engineering gets compared to other professions.

Perhaps the hacksmanship that passes for engineering under the U.S. industrial exemption is a trade.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Tick,  I'd like to give you 2 stars for the last post.

Engineering is a profession.  Thus, the initials P.E. after my name.

BTW, I was working for Boeing back in the late 90s when the SPEAA strike happened.  Being raised in a blue-collar house, I understood the importance of supporting your fellow employee, so I didn't work during the strike.  But, I also was not part of the union (not a dues paying member, anyway) nor did I walk the picket line.  Pointless, in my opinion.

What really pissed me off, and why I won't ever work for Boeing again, is that I was represented by the union even if I wasn't a member.  And the dues only went to pay for the union reps salaries - no strike fund or any member support.  And, the union did set a salary cap for grade levels; so even though I worked harder and better than my tenured counterparts, I could not get more than a cost-of-living raise because that's what was stated in the union's contract.

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Unions had their time.  Unions could still be valuable, but they need to be redefined to represent the needs of the time.

Back in hey-day of Unions, they were beneficial because they represented the best intentions of the members.  Coal mining unions were the only things keeping miners safe(r) from the greedy management.  Auto unions kept the workers from being abused so they actually had time to spend with families.  (Although Mr. Ford paid his employees so well that I can't believe they ever needed to unionize.)

Now, unions exist for the sake of their own existence.  They take advantage of their members more than they benefit them.  Company management (although still greedy) tend to sway towards keeping the company in business.  Unions are causing company management to make poor business decisions that put the livelihood of all employees in jeopardy.  That, to me, is worse than not getting a raise one year, or paying more for health benefits, or having to fund my own 401k/pension plan.

I say it's time to get rid of unions, or at least redefine their purpose.  And a white-collar union?  I didn't work my ass off in college to have my future decided by a bunch of suites in a board room applying blanket policies to my career path as they pad their own wallets.

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

A tradesman knows he is a dime a dozen. Every engineer beleives he is a hard to come by expert.  This is why engineering is not a protected profession.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

In the utilities sector good engineers are hard to come by. That's why there is such a serious recruiting problem in our industry. Good tradesmen are also becoming hard to find. Bad examples of each are a dime a dozen.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

In every sector "good" is hard to find in any profession and craft; "hacksmanship" has been accepted as SOP in too many places. I do not think unions as we know them could help that in a cost effective manner, competent management can.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Engineer without job security = "tradesman", "hacksman", "rubber stamper"

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

With the exception of some government positions (and at the State level even some of those are looking iffy these days), who really has job security?

I've already been told I'm not an engineer because I dont' have PE, so now I'm actually a "tradesman", "hacksman", "rubber stamper".

Oh well.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Job security? HA! Who has job security anymore?

I'm with you, KENAT. I guess we're just unlicensed hacksmen.

Guess I better sell all those expensive textbooks I bought.  

V

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Well, I thought I was the only one, but in my case I am called advisor. Neat, eh!
Needless to say I am presenting the damned confirmatory tests. (I can't believe I knew all this stuff way back when)
Getting back to the OP's, I have yet to see something good coming out of a union. Most people I've met that like unions, I dont like. But that's just me

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

"Engineering is a profession.  Thus, the initials P.E. after my name."

I am not a P.E. does that make me any less of a "professional"?   Big deal, you passed a silly test and send in your dues check every year.  

Personally I think they should either do away with PE licensing all together or make it a requirement across the board that anyone calling themselves an "engineer" must be a P.E regardless of the circumstances.   

If I were to do the exact same type of work I am doing today, but on my own using the term "engineer" I could be brought up on criminal charges, yet a manufacturing company can hire any dope off the street and legally call him an "engineer" even if he dropped out of school in the 10th grade.   


 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Spongebob, that is the problem with engineering being looked at like a commodity instead of a profession.  But, that discussion takes this thread off topic.

Look at this website.  This website is about engineering professionals, not just professional engineers.  Being a professional is about your work ethic and manner as much as it is your technical abilities.

Most countries other than the United States reserve the term engineer for only those that have passed the silly test.  The US is one of the few countries that allow companies to pervert the title and apply it to all "engineers" who are industry exempt.  You get rid of the exemption, and you will find every engineer has a P.E. after their name.  This would help reduce the number of dopes brought off the street and also firm up the respect that engineers deserve for their profession.

Those that aren't engineers but still perform engineering-like functions would be called things like designer or engineering technician.
 

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

So every person with a degree in engineering, but not enough experience to take the PE would be considered an engineering technician or a designer?

Your high horse just left, you better go catch him.

V

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Quote (pongebob007):

Personally I think they should either do away with PE licensing all together or make it a requirement across the board that anyone calling themselves an "engineer" must be a P.E regardless of the circumstances.

I am not a P.E., mostly because it is simply not required for what I do.  If industry required it, I would have it.  I am previously on record here in Eng-tips stating that I would willingly surrender the title of "engineer" if it meant that the profession was tightening its standards.

There's more to being a professional than just "doing a good job".  Being a member of a profession means that one has more responsibility and accountability to more people: to peers and public as well as to one's employer.  Being a PE is more than passing a silly test (that many can not pass).  As a practicing PE, one is responsible and accountable to peers, public, and clients.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I was two years out of college and at my second job.   The company I worked for had two engineering labs.  One of them was in the engineering department and the other was clear on the other side of the factory.  About six months after I started, management decided to consolidate the two labs into one.   Most of the equipment in the other lab ended up going to other divisions but there was a small tensile testing machine my boss wanted.   One evening I was working late.  My boss asked me and one of the other noob engineers to grab a hand truck and get the tensile tester from the other lab.

Well apparently some union slacker who was too busy minding others peoples business to do his own job had seen what we were doing.  A few days later we both get a notice to appear at a hearing.  The union had filed a grievance against me for moving a piece of equipment across the factory floor.  We did not get in any trouble because we were following orders, but as a result the incident, the company agreed to pay a monetary fine to the Union.  What a freakin joke!       

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

What about the "Employee Free Choice Act" that may well be coming?  With this passed, I can see most of America becoming unionized; even those employers who are good to their employees.  It would be a dark time for the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

With the "Employee Free Choice Act" I can see most of America becoming unemployed.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Where I live, the unions are cartels for the people in them, their friends and their relatives. Strangers, women and minorities are not welcome. Its a buddy system to the max. Their goal in my location is to extract as much monetary concessions from employers as possible, period. And many of them are tied in with organized crime. I see no real need for them.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Quote:

Your high horse just left, you better go catch him.
What is this?  Pick on Scott week?  For the record, some of the best engineers I know are the "old-guys" that never got a degree in the first place.  They advanced to being an engineer after years as a tradesman/craftsman.  I have more respect for those people than I do most PhD's.  Titles mean very little to me.  My ranting, if I may call it that, merely takes the thread off-topic a bit more by discussing the current state of the profession and how screwed up it is.  No wonder, even engineers can't agree on what it should be - how can the rest of society know what we do.

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

So, this one time, I was putting in my usual work day of 5:00a to 2:30p.  One of my projects was a failure investigation of some overhead equipment.  I ran all the analysis I could and decided I had to go with some load cells and actually measure the in-process loads.  I set it all up with the test department and cleared it with the production personnel.  My window to run the test was during at 6:00p.  I finished my regular work day, when home to grab a bite of supper, and drove to the production facility to help set up.

Well, it so happens that production got delayed, so the product wasn't ready to test.  It should be ready by 8:00p.  OK, the test engineer and I decided to stick around.  At 11:00p, the line was running again and we finally had everything we needed so we could run the test, except for the union electrician to plug in the equipment.

Literally.  The test engineer and I could hook up the load cells, DAQ, and run the cables, but we physically could not take the power cord from the equipment and put it into the wall socket.  A union electrician had to do that.  Since it was so late, there weren't any around.  Guess what, I plugged that sucker in.

A week later, I get a call into my managers office with a warning about performing duties outside of my role.  I should have called the electrician, woke him up, made him drive his ass into work, to plug in the equipment.  "That's stupid" was my response.

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Then there was this other time.

I was in the machine shop chatting with the operator about some issues with a design modification I did.  Nothing big, he just wanted some clarification.  Well, the part was over 60lbs, so OSHA says that requires a 2-man lift or crane.

The machinist was unionized, and he was a certified crane operator.  So, he rigged the part and began lifting it with the crane.  He was holding the pendant with one hand and guiding the part with the other hand.  Since he just wanted to tip the part up on it's side, he just rigged it with a loose band.  The rigging slipped.  His hand was under the part so I reached and stabilized the part, saving his hand.  From there, I continued to help guide the part so we could look at the area in question.

By the way, it was just him and I in the area at the time, but a few passers-by were on the walkway going through.

The next day, I get a call into my managers office stating - again - that I am not to perform union work.  But, there was not going to be any punative action because the situation resulted due to a safety incident.

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Last example for today.

A coworker of mine was on business travel.  While there, he got to tour the inside of a plane during carpeting.  In this particular instance, the tradesman usually carpets the plane by himself.  To pull the carpet tight, he places a weight on one side of the aisle and goes to the either side and tugs.  Well, since my coworker was standing right there, the tradesman asked him to stand on the edge of the carpet for him and hold it down while the tradesman pulled it tight.

As this was going on, the two of them were still chatting the host returned to pick up my coworker for the remainder of the tour.  My coworker got reported to the union for performing the union (carpeting) labor.  He didn't even work there!  As a matter of fact, he was just standing there.

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Scott, where the hell do you work? well, no need to say, but it must be fun poking the beehive! Just make sure  you're well out of the way when the queen bee comes out!
I used to poke at the worker's union in University and loved it! Had a little bit of an issue picking up my graduation certificate, though, but I did at the end

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I once read an interesting interview with a professional union-buster.  The very first thing he does when he comes into a company is terminate automatic payroll deductions for union dues.  When workers need to write checks to the unions, things get less rosy for the union thugs.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

"Engineering is not a trade."
May be true but it's how you employer looks at you that counts.
Most don't share your view.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Most employers (HR) seem to treat engineers as if they were unskilled labour and easily replaced.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Another story:  some millwrights found drawing errors and fixed the problem themselves.  Engineers found out and were outraged.  What is the difference?  You folks don't want someone else doing your job, why get offended when óthers don't want you doing theirs?  Would it be okay to perform open heart surgery without a medical license? Stick with what you know and show respect to the workers of other trades.   

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

dvd
Can we assume that you call an electrician when you need to change a lightglobe at home?

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

"...Engineers found out and were outraged...." and then they meekly went back to work, grouching about the minimal rise they got this year?

"...Engineers found out and were outraged...." and then they blockaded the plant, engaging in violent picket-line confrontation with police?

I wonder which is the more likely?
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

It actually isn't a fair comparison (millwright drawing story).  You can't compare this to the petty protectionism of teamsters.  Yes, there is a difference between changing a legal document against procedure and holding down a carpet or moving a box.  Let's not delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Tick is right.  Drawings are legal documents, and proper procedures are to be followed to maintain configuration control.  If they wrote out a change order, got it approved, made the drawing change, got it released at a new revision level, and didn't need to make any CAD model changes, then it might be OK.

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. - Hunter S. Thompson
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

If the change was something that definitively needed doing and I missed it in my drawings, I would say thanks and get the drawing changed. However, I would request them that next time they consult before doing the change if time does not allow for a full change order-approval-new drawing

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

(OP)
Wow, you guys were really busy while I was away.

I agree with most of you that unionizing Engineering is not a good idea.  I don't think it will buy us anything.  However, I see some of the posts points that Engineering seems like a trade.  I guess this view is more oversees than here in the USA.  For me for the past few years I have been treated as a professional by the companies that I have worked for and have been woed by.  Not sure if this is the same oversees.  

It will always be us against them attitude with union.  I myself have been grieved twice one for taking a panel off a rack and the other was for moving a file cabinet from one office to my office which was only two rooms down.  

If anybody is from Boeing, please give us your insight of the union and how it benefited or hurt your carrier in Boeing or even finding work in other companies.
 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

In both my personal examples above, I was working for Boeing at the time.

While working at Boeing, I was represented by the engineers union there and I was there during the first strike they had.

It absolutely killed my career.  I was a fresh grad, kind of a hot-shot like most are, but I also worked by arse off to be able to learn and prove myself.  There were "lifers" in my group that didn't do squat.

I went in to my manager's office for my annual review.  Each time I came out with a 3.5% raise.  At the time, less than inflation.  Why?  Because that was the negotiated raise the company had with the union.  And, as mentioned earlier, even though I wasn't a member of the union, I was still represented by them.  So, no matter how hard I worked or what I was able to accomplish, I got the same raise as the guy sitting around doing nothing all day - that I ended up having to do his work as well as mine because I actually took pride in my work.

And, because the union had organized the seniority policy as well, when lay-offs came around I was the first on the chopping block.  It didn't matter that I worked harder, better, and got more done than my elder-counterparts.  They had seniority so they got to stick around and I was sent walking.  (Actually, my boss recognized my abilities and managed to "hide" me from 2 rounds of layoffs.  Nice guy!  The 3rd round was coming and I knew there was no safe place for me, so I left on my own terms.)

To this day, even though I worked with some great people; and the technologies I worked on were incredible; the entire Boeing concept leaves a bad taste in my mouth and things would have to get very gloomy for me before I would ever consider returning to work for that company.

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

In leiu of an approved change document, a mark up signed by a resposible engineering representative would probably be acceptable until the formal change could be made.  Letting production personel change engineering documents on their own is just wrong, unless engineering is notified in some way before anything is fabricated from the resulting change.

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. - Hunter S. Thompson
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

A couple of remarks:

1.) I express my opionions as my own, I don't much care for those who jump on the bandwagon and hide behind a group. So why am I in favor of unions?  Because I think it is in my best interest. I don't see employers volunteering anything to employees.  

2.) I don't pick up tools or try to do the work of the crafts out of respect.  I believe it is hypocritical to say that crafts people should not do engineering work and then turn around and expect to be able to do as I see fit in their jurisdiction.

 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

dvd:

I believe in the division of labour:  there are different tasks that are appropriate to the skills, training AND compensation levels of labourers, tradespeople, drafters and designers, technicians and technologists, and engineers.  I respect these roles and the training and skill it takes to fill them well- but I definitely see engineers as the pinnacle of this heirarchy due to their education and their public protection mandate.

There are a few distinctions between roles which are set in law.  Though I design pressure piping and direct the work of pipefitters every day, I am still not permitted to run a natural gas line because I carry no gasfitter's license.  That's an appropriate measure for safety reasons.

There is NO WAY that I will respect petty, arbitrary, protectionist distinctions between these fields which exist SOLELY to provide people with a false sense of job security.  Union-enforced job differentiation rules stymie an organization's efficiency and build arbitrary barriers between co-workers who should, indeed MUST, see themselves as working together toward a common purpose if the organization is to succeed.

Engineers who never get their hands dirty are the bane of our profession.  Engineers who are prevented from EVER getting their hands dirty on company time by union rules etc. are going to be forever handicapped in one of their key roles:  keeping the constructors and maintenance staff in mind when doing their designs.

 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

A friend worked for a manufacturing company (hygienic fittings) where the union had agreed a three shift system but as there weren't the orders the night workers did nothing all night but sleep or "homers" - instead of making fittings they made kitchen items for themselves. When there was work they weren't allowed to work at any rate too fast...

I guess the rule was no one worked faster that the slowest rate of the slowest worker.

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Yeah, my dad made himself unpopular in at least one union job by working too fast and making others look bad.

While I like the idea of unions helping workers bargain etc. with employers, in practice they don't seem so great much of the time.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Not that I like unions, but from what I have seen they do support safer working conditions, and requiring that companies purchase protective clothing for the employees.

On the other hand OHSA is taking over that task and further making the unions a relic of the past.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Well, prime example of how worthless a union is. Bailout. It rather lose the jobs than take a pay cut. Not that I was for the bailout. However, having the union workers lose their jobs rather thank taking a pay and benefit cut, in times of a recession.... well....
And it is not the first time I see this. In the Volkswagen plant in Puebla, Mexico, many years ago, they union chose to have 50% of the workforce laid off rather than taking a 35% pay cut.
I despise modern unions

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

As said in many news sources, the auto bailout is actually a bailout of the unions.
It's probally better to allow a judge to modify the contract and force a lowering of the union pay. And if they strike, it lowers production of cars, which isen't a problem right now.

 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Some unions work very well with the companies they serve, on a local basis.  In the SW, I would far rather have a union pipefitter doing pressure piping projects than non-union.  I would not want to climb a 3-story scaffold built by non-union carpenters.  

On the other hand (no pun intended!), the fitters' hall sent a guy with hooks for both hands to work a high-pressure steam pipe welding job...  The guy never lasts more than a day on each job before being sent back to the hall, but he gets a guaranteed 4 hours pay for showing up.

(and by the way, he didn't lose his hands on the job;  he blew them off fishing with dynamite -- TWICE)

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I would climb a 3-story scaffold built by a non-union carpenter. It would depend how well it was built. It's all in the training.
I have climbed scaffolding and walk across catwalks built by both, and have seen both cr*p and superior craftsmanship.
I have also seen union workers cost the company more $$ by taking longer to build. A lot of them have the attitude that they can't be fired and can work overtime.
I have also worked with union engineers cut corners on designs to finish a job sooner hoping for a raise, promotion, or bonus. then they work overtime to fix the problem.
We don't need unions, we need management that understand what they are managing.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Unions have exhausted their usefulness in the US.  If you don't believe me, go ask Ford, GM or Chrysler why their costs of manufacture are so high and why they have to use lower quality parts to compete in price.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

The other thing I find useless about modern unions is the strike.   In the early days of unions I could see that the strike could be a poweful weapon against unsafe/grossly unfair working conditions.   Thanks to OSHA and other labor laws, one of the biggest reasons for going on strike no longer exists.

      

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Unions had their time. We now have the safety, worker's and environmental government bodies to contend with. Not saying they are a lesser evil, but having two devils is just a tad bit too much

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

In Australia, we have an organisation called APESMA which is a  employee representative organisation for Engineers, Scientists and Managers also many other benefits so has bargaining aspects of a union without the all invasive components. Anything like that in the US.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

3
APESMA is a union. What makes you think it does not come with all the usual baggage?

  

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

If the way to negotiate the solution to a problem, nowadays, is a strike. Either the company is worthless or the workers are worthless.
Unions might, just might, still have a place un some undeveloped countries (how I hate that term). But they are way past their usefulness in countries where there are government bodies that will attend a legal case presented by a worker, being safety related, working conditions related, etc...

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

What about a union of goverment workers, where the employer in known to be corrupt, and trouble makers tend to end up in cold places. And there is a chance of the job ending every 4 years. (Not every goverment is like this, but some are).

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I've lived in such a place. The government is utterly corrupt... so are the unions.
funny, most of the government jobs did end every six years (in this case) but the unions just stuck around.
Next government was corrupt too.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Then there's the communist government of China- one of the most anti-union governments in the world...

Those guys must have read a Chinese translation of Orwell's "Animal Farm"...

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I think you missed the part about the union staying, and the managment going every 6 years. In this case the union protects the workers not from a pay, or safty perspective, but from a political event.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Good point cranky, never thought about that. Having said so, the union jobs I was thinking of were not that dependant on the government changes. Think utility workers and such, where only the upper management is on the friend's payrolls

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I've worked with utilities that were both strong union, and no union, and the bigest difference that I could see is the managment. Everyone had the intent to do a good job, but the divide between managment and workers seems difficult for some managers to understand. (I guess respect was the word).
In the weak and no union atomspheres, the line people seemed to see there coworkers as part of the brotherhood, just like the unions.
The biggest difference was the interface between the line managers and the design engineers, and safety people.

 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

To all you folks that don't wish to take the PE Exam and carry the title P.E. want to feel even worse, in 15-25 years I think the 'Powers that Be' will take away your title.

As it stands I believe there is a suggestion that a Master's Deg. be required to sit for the PE Exam by future Grads.

Not that it truly matters, a if you are a good diligent worker with a BS you will have employment just not the title on your card.   

this message has been approved for citizen to elect kepharda 2008

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Are you suggesting that the PE stamp could become like a union membership card?
Sometimes seems like it now. As the PE stamp should weed out the bone heads, but it dosen't.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

(OP)
I do agree that all Engineers should be licensed.  Just like any other professional organization, from teachers to doctors, why can't the Engineering field do the same?  Actually I have been wondering how do companies in industries that do engineering work but their engineers are not PE?  I do not have a PE, but I am working on that.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Well, the way we work is that we test our products before releasing them to the great unwashed, and take some responsibility for their faults. We don't design to Codes, we design mostly to pass specific tests (that is our regulation is more by outcomes than by methods).

I'm not sure that licensing the exempt industries makes a great deal of sense, although from a selfish perspective I would be fully in favour of an AMA style union that regulated the supply of engineers and enforced where they could be used. I doubt the employers or academics would support that and would in fact do everything in their power to destroy it, as they have in the UK.





 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I would be happy to pay IEEE dues of $1,000.00 per year if it took care of its members the way the AMA takes care of its Docs.
JIM
  

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Instead the IEEE charges you much less, and sends you several e-mails for things you really don't care about.
I think they also sell your mailing address

But the coloring books are nice.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

deadhorse

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

lets see what happen now that the UAW union owns Chrysler. They already agreed not to strike.
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

No kidding.  The union now has to worry about the bottom line and profitability.  HMMM?  Conflict of interest?

--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Haha, swertel.

Tell me about it.

"Do we cut costs by being more efficient?"

"Nah, just don't put those bolts in there and cut that corner. They'll never know."  

V

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Eevn funnier, the UAW has some control over the labor for two of their new acquisitions competitors.

This should be very funny indeed.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I dropped my membership in ASME. They do little or nothing for the benefit of the membership other than to create technical standards and forums for technical presenations.  Sounds like IEEE is pretty much the same. Publishing standards is certainly important, but why not help improve the quality of life for the membership (e.g. lobbying congress to clamp down on H-1B visas and limit the number of engineering grads, providing job placement assistance to unemployed engineers, providing info on how to start up a business, educating the public on the importance of engineering in maintaining civilized life, etc.)? As somebody said above, I'd gladly pay more to belong to an engineering society if they actually helped me to remain employed.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

PhonoPhilo:  you might say that you'd be willing to join under those circumstances, but when membership is voluntary you'd actually be better off NOT joining and letting others pay for that lobbying and advocacy work.  That way, you save the membership fees.  THAT'S why the lobbying you want will never be done effectively:  the benefits of the lobbying work accrue to both members AND non-members, yet only the members PAY for it.

Even in Canada where we have a more comprehensive licensure program than you do in the US, the licensing bodies are prevented from doing effective lobbying on behalf of their licensees- and membership in the advocacy bodies who CAN do this lobbying is voluntary.  The advocacy bodies therefore have limited membership and can't afford to do anything.

For some reason, the doctors and to a lesser extent the lawyers don't suffer from this problem.  Perhaps it's because unlike engineering, both of these are "true" professions- practicing without a license in either case lands you not only with a fine, but in jail- with a very good likelihood of being caught.

 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Why would anyone want fewer engineering grads? There are so many enginnering jobs being unfilled, and mainly because universitys don't teach, or discurage people from those fields.
And in fact there is now a shortage a technictions, because so many of them are doing the eazy stuff for the engineers.

 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

"Why would anyone want fewer engineering grads"

Well, given laws of supply and demand, because those there are will get paid more.

May not be best for industry or the country/world but good for those with the degree.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

crank109: There are not that many jobs out there for graduating engineers. Unless you have 2 years experience, which most probably will not.

Though I am against unions, I do wish the US would restrict the use of the term "engineer"

The reason I dislike unions is I have seen what they do. I use to work at a grain elevator and they had to lay off people and guess who got cut. The non-union people. Though the point of irony about being non-union while on that job was I got paid 20% more and generally ended up with the better assignments, if you could call it that

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Why would anyone want fewer engineering grads?

In Canada, according to the 2006 census, 2/3 of those persons with engineering degrees were employed outside engineering occupations.  That's per the Engineering and Technology Labour Market Study completed last year by Engineers Canada.

That group of 2/3 didn't all leave the profession to become patent lawyers and medical researchers...

That HARDLY sounds like a profession with any kind of a labour shortage!  In fact, to me it's plain evidence of a profession with a MASSIVE over-supply - an over-supply which has led to commoditization of our services and the destruction of what once WAS a profession!

"Engineering jobs going unfilled" in my experience is a baseless statement.  There is NO shortage of engineers in Canada.  Plenty of hype and media hay is made from localized shortages of particular skillsets, particularly in cyclical industries, but these sorts of shortages are VERY different than a true labour shortage.  

Cyclical industries don't hire adequate numbers of young engineers in the "bust" times, and hence come up short of experienced people during "boom" times.  You can't fix that problem by cranking out more grads.  In fact, you can't really solve that problem via generalized immigration either (Canada is proof positive of that!).
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

If you see that I'm not in a cyclical industry, and I don't get paid as well as in the high tech semiconductor industries, but the industry is stable and in need of more engineers.
So if you like high voltage, and can work with three phase voltage, there are jobs.

However you maybe right as those other engineers in the other department down the hall don't seem as happy.

So what's with the shortage of civil engineers that I hear about?

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

No shortage of civil engineers that I can see.  Shortage of civil engineers with 10-15 years experience, because 10-15 yrs ago nobody was hiring fresh grad civil engineers?  Sure- that I'd buy...

No labour shortage- only succession planning problems, and firms who don't like to hire young and TRAIN, because successive recessions proved it to be no longer necessary!

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

My experience is in the manufacturing sector. From what I've seen here in the US, most of the new engineering jobs out there are for lower level positions with 2-3 years of experience. Employer expectations are extremely high and salaries are low. Jobs for new grads and people with senior level/management experience are rare as hen's teeth. I don't see things getting any better.

Nevertheless, universities continue to pump out engineering grads. Where are those people going to work?  China?  India?

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Phonophilo,

Some time soon the universities and students who turned their backs on the 'old' industries like power generation & transmission and the heavy process industries like steel and chemicals will wake up to the fact that the old industries are desperate for people with the right education, training, and experience. There are jobs there, but the education system is producing the wrong product. I don't exclusively blame the universities - the industries created much of the problem themselves through underinvestment and recruitment freezes a decade or two ago.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Scotty, over here in the US, I don't think it is necessarily because of the universities turing out the wrong product.  It is primarily because of the bum enconomy and the opportunities to make a quick buck by outsourcing design and manufacturing to Asia.  There there just aren't enough engineering jobs to go around.  

Nevertheless, our government and engineering societies are trying to encourage young people to seek careers in engineering.  The universities continue to pump out engineering grads. Everyont thinks that if we make more engineers, then we will some-how regain former glory and lead the world again.  If we don't consider what's going on after engineering school and implement some changes, then we will have a lot of recent grad engineers working at Starbucks and McDonalds rather than designing and creating things.  It really doesn't make sense to me.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

A lack of succession planning, combined with utter incompetence amongst journalists, is at the root of this.

Throughout my career there have been reports of an imminent or existing shortage of engineers.  Yet engineering salaries have grown no faster than those of any other profession (considerably LESS rapidly than those of many other professions).  

Engineering programs in Canada are reportedly still turning away 5 applicants for every one they select, and Canada is still permitting the immigration of nearly half as many engineers that we graduate from all of Canada's universities combined- even during a severe recession with escalating unemployment rates.

Over 2/3 of engineering graduates in Canada already are NOT working as engineers.  Yet the reports of "shortages" are still there in the media.

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF ENGINEERS- there is only a shortage of engineering employers willing to hire, train and properly compensate engineers to satisfy their needs.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Last two posts: in my industry there absolutely is a shortage of experienced, skilled and qualified engineers. It's certainly not because of outsourcing to China because no one has so far managed to make the economics of locating a power station two continents away pay off, so the bean counters are stuck with having to pay for indigenous labour. The problem in Europe, and the US too from what I read in the industry press, is that more people are leaving the profession to retirement than are entering it. There may be a surplus of engineers generally, but there's a massive shortfall in certain industries which is only getting worse.

I don't blame journalists, I blame the policy-makers of two decades ago who virtually stopped recruitment into the power industry, embarking instead on a frenzy of cost-cutting, down-sizing, recruitment freezes, and the wholesale decimation a reasonably well-run state industry.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

WRT encouraging people into Engineering.

Just one thought, it may be that there are more than enough Engineering Graduates, but are there enough 'good' graduates?  Maybe encouraging more into engineering the aim is to get more 'good' graduates, more so than just the number of graduates per se?

It seems like a lot of the cutting edge people in my little part of the hi-tech world weren't 'born & raised' in the good ol' US of A.

Now whether this is because my place abuses the H1B visa system (possible) or because there genuinely aren't 'born & raised' Americans willing/able to do the job or a myriad of possible other reasons that cross my mind I'm not sure.

I've seen it suggested that for some time the 'brightest & best' potential 'USA born & raised' engineers aren't going into Engineering (at least, prior the current economic issues) but into other more lucrative fields.

Just throwing out other ideas to consider, and not meaning to denigrate recent grads or anything.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

"...there is a shortage of skilled, experienced and qualified engineers..."

When the prequalification is 10+ yrs of previous experience in a particular industry, is there EVER anything other than a shortage?!  COULD there ever be anything other than a shortage under those conditions?!

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

With an average 40 year career that means 30 of those years would be in the 'experienced' category, if the industry treated its workers well enough for them to stay with the company and in the industry. It doesn't take more than a generation to get over the initial shortage, but the key is to maintain that staffing without having a decade-long recruitment freeze or laying off huge swathes of the workforce.
 
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Actually in the US the power industry for the most pary dosen't hire H1B visa engineers because of several reasons, mainly because of the culture differences, and not understanding the US standards, and university creadibility issues.

And when I retire in 10 to 15 years, there will probally still be a shortage of power engineers with 10+ years experence.

Part of the shortage of power engineers is the lack of schools teaching power. And part of it is people just can't handle the math, or have the wrong attitude.

If it wasen't for a shortage of linemen, I'd believe you. But the fact is there is a shortage people interested in this industry.

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

cranky108, I was a power engineer for almost 14 years after I got out of engineering school in the early 1980s. It was a great job, but I had to leave because government regulation/deregulation just about killed the industry by the early 1990s.  The utility I worked for started laying off engineers in droves.  Realizing that I had a very questionable future there, I reluctantly jumped ship and went into manufacturing.  

Now that manufacturing is in the tank, and I recently lost my job, I've been looking to get back into the utility industry again. At least now, they are hiring people again, but I have noticed that there isn't much for seasoned veterans like myself. Lots of lower-level positions requiring 2-3 years of experience. One recruiter actually told me that my 14 years of experience in power is no longer worth anything because I have been out of the industry for so long!

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

Sounds like you were a victim of the policies which I described previously. As for "One recruiter actually told me that my 14 years of experience in power is no longer worth anything because I have been out of the industry for so long!", I laughed out loud. Many UK stations were built a few years before I was born, and the technology of the major plant in them isn't substatially different to that being built today. We haven't taken any really big forward steps, except in gas turbine technology and in control systems, over the past 20 years. In some ways the technology is simpler as the industry has moved away from the big hydrogen-cooled 750MVA sets down to (relatively) cheap and (relatively) simple air-cooled designs. Your recruiter is clueless.
  

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
 

RE: Look Toto, there is an Engineering Union.

I think there has been some improvments in protective relays. But with protective relays they might be right. You either keep on top or your almost lost.
However there are schools for refresher for this.

Most companies are looking for 2-3 years because they can't find more experenced people. In the area of project managment there should not be any problems with a gap in the industry.

In the area of power production there is a shortage of controls, and plant engineers, which are probally eazy to find through out the US.

And many jobs are no longer posted, as the companies just could not find people in a reasonable timeframe.

 

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