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Head Gasket
6

Head Gasket

Head Gasket

(OP)
Does anyone know if you need to use a sealer on a new head gasket while rebuilding a 460 Ford motor? If so what is best to use? The engine is a 1986 model and needed new heads because of broken manifold bolts. We need to install the heads with new headers, and the intake. All help is welcomed.

Thanks,
Steve
 

RE: Head Gasket

In the 50's I followed the 'trend' in what many builders did...that included re using the, for the time, state of the art solid copper head gaskets.  After each use, the gaskets were annealed and coated with 'Copper Coat' and let dry, then installed.  This worked well on the old flathead engines of the time...I'm not that much of a purist, however!  I just changed the head gasket on my 1930 Ford and I installed it DRY.  It's 2008, not 1948!  Do what Pat says, follow instructions...Gee, you won't  even need to re torque on most quality gaskets...In fact, on my race engine head gaskets, re torque is NOT recommended.

Rod

RE: Head Gasket

(metallic) head gaskets are usually meant to be used dry and are manufactured from material that can withstand contact with exhaust gas, high temperature coolant, combustion pressure and engine oil when torqued to the amount as specified by the engine manufacturer. when you introduce another medium on one or both faces of the gasket it is no longer sure that the gasket will be able to perform as expected. the use of sealants with other types of gaskets is usually far less critical and can be advantageous when the two mating surfaces are damaged somewhat or not completely lat.

RE: Head Gasket

You will not need to use any sealer if you are using a good quality head gasket. If you are using a poor quality gasket then you could use a sealer such as Copper Coat but it is not going to make a poor quality gasket perform as a topline head gasket will. If a sealer is used then careful care must be used so that you get an even coat across the faces of the gasket so that you do not get a variance in the thickness that can cause uneven crush loads on the gasket therefore increasing the chance of the head gasket failing.

Jim

RE: Head Gasket

Only time a sealer is needed is if it is just a steel shim type gasket, like Chevrolet used on older V-8 engines. Most folks just would spray a silver paint on them.
The last 460 Ford I did, the felpro gaskets where coated with a sticky sealer of sorts. Other than those shim gaskets I never use a sealer on head gaskets.  

RE: Head Gasket

Silver paint may be fine for street engines and low stress applications...Not my first choice (yes, Mildred, I have used silver paint in the past)...there are better sealers available and, cheaply, too. I did many head gaskets on my 1961 Corvette race car in the early 60's, the steel shim type as you describe...I installed them DRY, they have a sealer already on them.

One item I just crossed paths with...the "compression rings".
Interesting that they are still available and even more amazing that there are still engine builders that would use them.  We used fine wire to build compression rings on the solid copper head gaskets I described, it's really the only easy way to "O" ring a flathead.  Point is, they are, and rightly should be, relegated to the past! Gaskets are much improved since 1948.  "O" ringing the block on most engines is totally unnecessary these days...21st Century tech and all that! winky smile

Rod

RE: Head Gasket

Rod, I always did the dry thing too. Till I had a leak one time. H2O.  And yes they have a coat of something on them as a sealer.
 

RE: Head Gasket

As a general rule, at least in my experience, I have found that the "one time failure" of just about anything racing related is most commonly a result of human error.  I have had head gasket failure a few times either from incorrect installation procedure or from some related problem such as not making sure all the surfaces are "flat".
I think, looking back, my use of "O" rings, "compression rings" and sealers was a "monkey see, monkey do" sort of thing. I found better ways of dealing with the problems along the way. Part of this is much better head gaskets, I am sure...Part is I'm older and a bit more careful in my assembly. "Do it right the first time and you won't need to do it over" sort of attitude.

See...Even as old, hard headed and, stubborn as I am, one CAN learn (eventually).  winky smile

The 'next' project for my Mini is to "dry deck" the engine and 'do away' with the head gasket altogether.  Perhaps next rebuild as it will require new pistons as well.

Rod

RE: Head Gasket

"The 'next' project for my Mini is to "dry deck" the engine and 'do away' with the head gasket altogether."

Wasn't it Ettore Bugatti who said (words to the effect); "anyone who needs gaskets can't machine a surface"?

Having worked on a few Bugs I can say that they leak all over the place unless you use sealers (I hear EB turning...), but EB did resolve the head gasket issue by casting head and block as a single unit, i.e. cheating...

RE: Head Gasket

One piece castings for head and block were common during and before Bugatti's heyday. Lithage or white lead was also a common sealing compound. It was quite effective for small gaps, but difficult to remove when rebuilding and quite toxic.

Tioga seems to have not liked my advice. I wonder if it is in essence any different from what everyone else said.

I also wondered why a broken manifold bolt requires a new head. Repairing broken bolts is not all that hard to do so long as you have the right tools.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers for professional engineers
 

RE: Head Gasket

Interesting reading some of the comments, brings back memories of head gasket woes. One thing years ago that was near sudden death to a head gasket was the quick cooling down of engines behind pace cars. We tried just about every machining technique, sealing compound etc some worked some not especially for long term durability when needed the most & some were near impossible to clean up on rebuild.

There is one OUTSTANDING sealer that ensures long term high stress head sealing & easy removal on rebuild. It will take the heat of battle & remains flexible enough to cope with anything. It can be used on cast iron, aluminium, copper, stainless steel, also can be used with petrol, diesel, methyl benzine, avgas etc. It's oil & coolant resistant as well.
You have to apply firm leverage force to the heads until you hear the seal start to tear when removing the heads.

The product is "ThreeBond WHITE", one tube goes a long way you will not find better, simply apply a "very thin" spread out film with an artists brush on the block side of the gasket, place gasket over studs or dowels & coat the other side & fit heads & torque down. It will spread out very evenly with an even crush.
Just remember to leave a 3-4mm non coated surface around ALL holes on the gasket, it will spread to seal these itself.
We use laser cut S/Steel gaskets with ThreeBond WHITE as the sealer & forget head gasket woes forever & we reuse these over & over again.

As a test once we scored the gasket deeply with a scribe at the bores to see if it would end up failing due to combustion pressure & bugger me it just keeps on keeping on--perfect & no it didn't fail.

Oh, i forgot, you MUST clean the block & head surface with paint thinners first & wipe dry--totaly clean! Do this first & then work quickly & precisely

This product is good.

RE: Head Gasket

Rod, there are some of us pushing enough boost to require the "antique O-rings".

Even Cometics has not been able to contain excessive boost...... winky smile

RE: Head Gasket

I don't think there's such thing as excessive boost, only inadequate containment. :)

RE: Head Gasket

Most engines, Pat.  I said most engines.
The dry deck system is common on Mini's but at a low 11:1 CR.  I intend to use ~16:1 so I can foresee a need to "O" ring the cylinders when using NO head gasket as I plan my dry deck system.  I've been using Threebond 1104 for several years to replace most of my gasket applications and as I see it, I may use it, along with "O" rings to replace the head gasket.  For now, all the "dry deck" systems I have seen simply block off all the water passages in the head (or gasket) and use the stock type head gasket.  With my system, I want to eliminate that 0.035" space.

The only high boost levels(relatively) was my T-coupe at ~22 psi boost levels and ~8.5: CR.  It still needed H2O injection on special occasions. I used a stock Ford gasket.  On my British race cars I use Payen gaskets (made in England) and, so far, have had no failures using 14:1 CR.

Rod

RE: Head Gasket

Many year ago we used SS shims on SBC used for F5000 motors. We glued them on with high strength Araldite, but for SBC NA I now use the partly SS jacketed inbuilt "O" ring Felpro blues on a clean dry slightly rough flat surface. On a NA motor in a boat they NEVER fail.

I use copper and "O" rings and receiver groves for our blown SBC at 45# boost. We use a bit of Permatex to seal the water passages and don't really care if it seeps a little as it only runs 1/4 mile, but the Threebond sounds like a good tip.

Rod & Pat, I am interested in your thoughts. The blown SBC I work on now we are producing over 40# boost has started pushing inlet manifold to port gaskets into the valley as the floor of the port at the sealing surface is no more than 1/8" thick. This results in a sump full of methanol and the manifold to valley silicone seal being blown then oil blowing onto the bell housing and magneto. I have centre punched both surfaces, checked for even clamp as best I can and glued them to the head with Permatex. Do yo think the Threebond will hold better. There is no room on the head for rubber O" rings on the head in that area.


We currently use Felpro Printoseals, but I also wonder if a cheaper straight grey cardboard gasket glued both sides might hold better as the glue would have more to grip. As the Felpros are failing, we can't reuse them anyway and I feel the printoseal surface reduces grip and does not accept glue well.  


Back to the OP.

He said rebuilding a 1986 model 460 Ford. No mention of performance or race. I am sure any good brand gasket installed as recomended will surfice for his needs.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers for professional engineers
 

RE: Head Gasket

Pat,
 I used to know a guy who made 'no slip' grips for pistols.. out of the gun frame itself.  He'd blue and scribe a rectangular pattern maybe 3x3mm to 5x5mm, and at each intersection, drive in a sharp prick punch at an angle, raising a chip... and leaving the chip.  You had to peel your hand off the grip to release the gun.  

Maybe you could do something like that to your manifold gasket faces...

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Head Gasket

Good idea Mike.

If my gluing efforts failed I was considering either little pins as stakes or a ledge screwed to the bottom of the port runners to act as a retaining wall for the gasket.  

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers for professional engineers
 

RE: Head Gasket

I don't have much current experience with blown engines so what I have to contribute may not be of much help.  I build and race mostly British cars (one Toyota) and I am accustomed to "leaks".  It's an uphill battle.

The main problem in racing a Mini Cooper is the joint between the gearbox and the block.  It seems no amount of regular sealer, RTV or, paper gasket will prevent 'blow out'.  I see several of the Mini racers on the national forum using solid shim copper gaskets...I'm not sure how well they work, but I consider it a bit of overkill.  I am using the Threebond 1104 (Google this Pat, they have many other sealers) for my gearbox/engine joint sans gasket.  I tried it with the paper gasket once and it failed but with NO gasket it works flawlessly.  No leaks or failures in five years.

Now, how this might work on a SBC intake.....The last SBC intake I used was a stamped steel thing on my '61 Corvette about a million years ago and my memory is only accurate for about two weeks!!! sad

Rod

RE: Head Gasket

O-rings and copper head gaskets are common on drag racing engines making over 1000hp though the latest trick on nitrous pro mods is to eliminate the receiver groove and let the o-ring simply crush into the copper. There are hollow o-rings available that that are filled with pressurized nitrogen(I wonder how you'd manufacture that) but they're extremely expensive and hardly anybody uses them. The 800 cu in IHRA pro stock engines are starting to move toward the MLS gaskets with I would guess about half the field using them.

Al  

RE: Head Gasket

to solve a similar "Patprimmer's gasket blow-out" problem on 35-40psi boosted 2.0L turbo'd motors we build, we machine a shallow mating wedge/labyrinth type sealing joint. (maybe one could use the "1948 technology" and O-ring it? BTW, we still O-Ring a lot of Honda & Mitsu  blocks). At first I applied a VERY thin film of Hylamar to act as much like a lubricant during assembly, as for a "cold" sealing agent to fill micro machine tool marks. Lately we just spray the joint with WD40 and put it together. On another engine I solved a similar problem by drilling and adding several small 4mm fasteners between the main fasteners. I tapped the lower, 0.187" thick plate to avoid the hassle of placing tiny nuts on the socket head bolts I used. Hope this helps. TN

RE: Head Gasket

I am not blowing head gaskets. We use copper with O ring and receiver grove with no problems.

I am blowing the cardboard type inlet manifold gasket into the valley on a SBC V8. There is no room for extra bolts without a LOT of welding.
 

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers for professional engineers
 

RE: Head Gasket

Whoa up Pat! I understood it was NOT the head gasket - I understood it was a manifold gaskets, due to high boost pressure - I do not work on Detroit iron - so am not familiar with your specific app limitations - I mentioned a labyrinth type seal that uses no gasket as a likely solution - and only mentioned the extra bolts as an alternative I had used on a different engine. Whether You can use any of these suggestions is beyond my control - I was only offering helpful ideas. Pat, I'm new to this forum - but not new to engineering high performance engines... I certainly didn't mean to cause you to lose your patience... my post was only an attempt to help you - please accept my apology.

RE: Head Gasket

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound impatient. Actually I was conscious that I hijacked this thread (ie I was wrong) to get some advise from Rod & Pat, whose judgements I respect and trust.

I should have started my own thread, but they were here and it followed the topic.

I thought it possible you read the original heading and did not notice I hijacked it about 3/4 of the way down.

This is a professional forum and sometimes the language is businesslike rather than social as we do want to be accurate, precise and concise but we do not want to invest unnecessary time.

I was abrupt with the OP due to the quality of his question.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers for professional engineers
 

RE: Head Gasket


CNCHeadporter:
Geez, fill in your profile and give us something shorter to call you.  
From your other posts, you seem to know what your are about (I hate porting...I do it, but I hate it.  Each time I swear it will be my last)... welcome to the hijacked thread...I have become so accustomed to these segues that they pass totally unnoticed.  winky smile

Pat, go ahead and start a new thread...I'll see it.  The subject matter is of concern to me as gaskets are, and have been for over fifty years, a pain in my @ss!

I like the idea of a matching "step or groove" in the manifold surface using only a sealer and NO paper gasket.  I hate them things!  I like Threebond 1104, but Hylomar, as well as several other RTV's should work.  I have just had  good experience with the Threebond.

Rod

RE: Head Gasket

No need Rod. I think I have all the answer on this that is there to get. I think the OP is long gone and the thread evolved or went off topic because the OP was way to vague.

I still think he was a home handyman who wanted us to give him info that is in the instructions that come with the part if he actually bothered to read such things. I just noticed his post saying he did not like my attitude is gone. I thought he made a good call on that and I would not have flagged it. I was being abrupt to him as I thought that was all his OP was worth.

CNC

 Rod is right

You know your stuff and I think you will like it here.

As I think you will stick around, it would be easier and more personal if we had a reasonable name to address you by.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers for professional engineers
 

RE: Head Gasket

Thanks for the input guys- I'm a little new to this forum thing - spend most of my time in the shop making shavings. I'll fill in the profile and try to get a shorter "handle" ...and just lurk a while.  There seems to be a high degree of talent here - and I respect that! Cheers!  

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