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using open discussion sites like these

using open discussion sites like these

using open discussion sites like these

(OP)
not sure exactly where this question might go but this seemed like a reasonable spot.

any thoughts on the consequences of using sites like these? for instance, at what point might it become a liability to openly correspond about projects, problems, test methods/procedures, calculations, observations, etc.? in other words, say 5 years down the road, i'm called in to court over a problem with a project...can someone use things i've said over the years on this website against me?

RE: using open discussion sites like these

"Everything is discoverable" - remember that.

As you read posts here or elsewhere, you will see that many posters try to keep their questions sufficiently generic, and free of specific details.  On the other hand, occasionally posters will sometimes place links to drawings with full title blocks.

If you use a pseudonym, don't post a link to your business in your signature and keep your questions general then you should be sufficiently insulated from having stuff on Eng-Tips being associated with you IRL.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

This is a personal opinion, and not a legal one:

As long as you post anonymously on this site, and don't identify your self, I don't see it becoming a problem. Well, maybe if you committed a crime big enough to cause the cops to raid your office and take your computer, then yes, I'd say it can be a problem.

Any person who takes advice of this site, with out doing his own research deserves the trouble he gets him self into.

I think it would be a different story if you had a link in your signature to your personal/business website. Advices from someone like that, I'd consider as good as getting free advice through email or phone call - just because it's a form of communication with someone whose credentials you can see....



 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

(OP)
well what about this scenario? you visit the site to discuss general topics and don't post specific information. however, during discovery, someone sees your username somewhere on your computer and they track down that you visit/post this site outside of work hours (or even during work hours-not that i do). is there a good likelihood that the lawyers could then suck you in that way? (as i'm sure lawyers suck you in most anyway these days)

i mean really, it's not that difficult to see what people do or where they visit even if they use user names...especially if you look on a company's server or on someone's computer.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

I believe you have to be ready to defend against anything you post here.


This site obviously saves your posts.  So do others.

I've always had the attitude to only post or e-mail only items that my worst detractor could get and hand over to the best lawyer in the country, with that in mind, I'm quite comfortable.

Also, for msucog:  Not all lawyers suck, I'm not one but have worked with some really great, sensitive caring attorneys.  The smart thing to do is check with a good one first and always have the smartest one on your side.  Don't check with them after the documents are issued, check with them BEFORE and you'll be fine.

From my experience, it's the ones who do not advertise who are the best.

Good luck,
Dermott

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Proponents of video surveillance like to say: "As Long As You're Not Doing Anything Wrong, You Have Nothing To Worry About"  I don't Necessarily agree with them, but it might apply to this case.

So if your going to post on here, don't do it with malicious intent, and do it while drawing from your knowledge and experience....

It's like anything else.  You have to have something to back up your words.  If you answered a question (as you understood it) to the best of your knowledge (with your past experience backing it up), then there is nothing to worry about.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

msucog,

   Before the internet became popular, I used to be on a lot of electronic bulletin board systems (BBSs).  When you logged in for the first time, almost all of them warned you that the sysop read all messages, including the private ones.  You were being explicitly told that you had no expectation of privacy.

   At least in western countries, your mail and your telephone are private because the governments have arbitrarily declared them to be so.  They (legally) need a warrant to intercept this stuff, and the mail and phone services cannot be held responsible for any communications you do through them.  

   People assume that BBSs and ISPs are similarly protected, and I am not aware that they are.  All of this is irrelevant if the server is not in the same jurisdiction you are.  

   This is a public space.  You can be identified.  The owners of the servers can be held responsible for stuff you upload here.  

                       JHG

RE: using open discussion sites like these


I don't post anything about my actual work because I work in construction defect litigation.  I don't even post anything about resolved or settled cases because it's rarely generic enough to be completely anonymous.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: using open discussion sites like these

You might find that you have no protection against your company reading emails, monitoring internet usage and generally getting uptight if you use company computers, access via their servers or use their emails.

We had this part of the discussion some time back somewhere...  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Most posts here (at least the ones I tend to read) provide enough general information for someone to offer advise.  This could be where to look for further information, insight as to how one goes about solving problem, and clarification of how to interpret concepts or formulas.

Answers given generally follow that same concept.  "You should take these steps / remember to look at these aspects" / etc.  How often do you see the answer is 3 with a FS of 1.5?

If you are providing general guidance (helping someone learn what they should do), then you are no more liable than any professor, previous mentor the person may have had, or any author of a text book or technical paper.  Any lawyer trying to hold you accountable would be a fool.

And as said previously, no one should be going only off of what they read here. There are people from around the world with completely different backgrounds and standards that they design to.  People asking questions should realize that they are held to the standard of care, which here is defined based on the practice of engineers in the local area. You must temper anything you read with your own judgment to determine if it is applicable to the problem you are working on.
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

It's a double-edged sword.  If the majority of the postings agree with your written analysis, then it's great, because the other side will have their one, or two, expert witnesses, and you'll have a whole thread's worth.

On the other hand, if the majority of the postings disagree with your written analysis, then it's bad.

IF you don't want to get into this sort of situation, then you'll need to act accordingly.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: using open discussion sites like these

I tend to post responses that point somebody in a direction they need to take.  I'm NOT posting specific quantities.  And I warn quite a few that their problem might be something where they want to bring in expert help.

There are lots of "newbies" out there and there are also lots of people who have to work outside their areas of expertise.  I know I do that myself from time to time.  I see our posts in many cases as a "reality check".

And lawsuits?  Squeeze some blood out of THIS turnip...

old field guy

RE: using open discussion sites like these

So...from posting on this forum, where are the compensation and contract to incur liability?  No engineering calculations should be done on this site for specific projects, only in general.  Doin't we have disclaimers here for the site?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: using open discussion sites like these

(OP)
ah nice post there msquared48...no contract...simple but very true (almost too obvious). regardless of what you say here, after your point i now think it would very difficult since you have no contract here.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Er, they say free advice is worth what you pay for it.

But on the other hand, the advice here is often priceless.
You either go away knowing that
(a) you were badly wrong and there is some significant relief at having you ideas corrected before you made an ass of yourself at work or:
(b) you discover that you had it right all along but the confirmation is a real confidence booster.

Now when you get advice here it isn't like you asked just one unknown person of unknown quality and got that one person's view with no way to know if it is right or wrong, you usually get several people responding but more importantly you may have unknown numbers of people who read the posts, have nothing to add but who have nothing to contradict... did anyone ever see bad advice go uncorrected? Heck, they'll even check your spelling and grammar for you here (whether you asked them to or not).
reading
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

The OP might be an idiot for taking your advice, but just because you didn't have a contract or compensation from him wouldn't make you free of liability.   

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: using open discussion sites like these

One caution. You might consider doing your discussion from a home computer, not the one at work. The boss can read your communications and hold it against you. Mine did.

I find posting my experiences and opinions uplifting because it may help others. That's the point of all this. Other agencies may use the site for taking the pulse of engineering.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

If you dont use credentials then i dont see why you should be anomynous?

Its your opinion - but thats not the same as you being liable.

Another thing: This is an international site and whats law in one country is not the same in another. Any american may state something that OK in the states (or maybe just in some states?) but illegal e.g. in the EU - then what?

Best regards

Morten

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Well, since no contract is involved, I believe liability falls under tort law.

The first thing a person has to establish is a duty to care. Do any of us establish that we have a duty to care when we give advice here? Honestly, I can't tell if anyone on here are engineers or 5th graders or thugs sitting in cyber cafes in Nigeria trying to send me millions of dollars.

So I believe that, since I haven't established a inherent duty to care, I don't believe a jury would find me liable for the information I provide on here.

If I say that I'm a Professional Engineer licensed in a particular state, then I'm showing that I have a duty to care. But I don't know of a legal duty to care that I have established since I'm not a professional engineer.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

This site is relatively strict concerning student postings, and when you sign up for an account, you claim, as a minimum, that you are an engineering professional.  

So, your postings are either intended to be reasonable advice, or they're willful mischief.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: using open discussion sites like these

That implies that as a visitor to the site you depend on the site owners policing the site properly to ensure that everyone who signs up is a professional engineer.

But, we all know that students do get through the net and post and then we have that great debate about "what is an engineer?"

So, "relatively strict" may be somewhat optimistic or unrealistic.

Did anyone need to submit work references and show proof of qualification to become a member?
No.

I'd suggest it is easier for the owners to police bad manners and double posting than ensure the integrity of the members. Indeed, the owners of the site are clear that they are not competent to adjudicate engineering issues.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

This site is not intended for the dissemination of free engineering services for non-engineers, but only as a discussion group of peers, licensed or unlicensed.  

As the information is freely given, take it as such and don't try to make it something it is not.  As the engineer asking for the guidance, it is still your professional responsibility to check out the sources cited, if any, and use the information in a professional manner.

And, for the record, contracts and compesnsation DO matter.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Quote (IRStuff):

...when you sign up for an account, you claim, as a minimum, that you are an engineering professional.
Not exactly (See attached). If the Join Us section at the LH side of the screen is used, there is no mention of any engineering related qualification being required.

Even the main registration page has only an obscure bracketed comment buried amidst form fields and other trivial bracketed comments.


Quote (jmw):

to ensure that everyone who signs up is a professional engineer.
Please repeat after me. It's "engineering professional" not professional engineer". poke
There is a BIG difference, in both application and liability.

cheers

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Quote (msucog):

..can someone use things i've said over the years on this website against me?

I cannot imagine a lawyer trying to discredit someone not using everything they can find to accomplish their task. When a lot of money is on the table things can get really ugly. With that said, I really hope nobody has to go through some of the horror stories I have heard of about engineers on the stand.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

"engineering professional"
"engineering professional"
"engineering professional"
"engineering professional"
"engineering professional"
....
purpleface

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

My liability is limited to the amount of fee that I received for posting on this site.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

You might think so, but Good Samaritan laws were put in place to prevent liability suits in cases where a person helps an injured person with no contract or compensation, but does something to further harm the injured person.  Note that in some cases, someone who is untrained in first aid would still be liable if something went wrong.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: using open discussion sites like these

(OP)
civilperson, do not believe that philosophy (although i agree that what you said should be true). i would argue that since there's no contract that you're not required to do anything...but if you do give advice, opinions, recommendations (which is what we do on here), could a court find you responsible some how? let's say you do have a contract and you set your liability at $5 or the fee whichever is greater but you elect to charge only $5. the building falls/fails sometime later. the court will through out the unreasonably low $5 limitation and set their own based on the "facts" of the case which could be whatever they feel like is good enough to teach you a lesson and to ease the pain of the person that was harmed (ie. a lot of money).

also, if i'm walking down the street and see an "obviously" unsafe trench with people in there, it's highly possible that i could be sued if i don't "do my professional duty" and inform the people in the trench to get out. i'm wondering if the same rationale could be used for posting on here. even though we are sharing ideas and batting around the engineering principles, i could almost see a sleezebag lawyer trying to discredit or skew the case based on posting on websites like this. i apparently have stumbled upon a real question that is not so easily answered in a straight forward manner.

IS THERE A LAWYER IN THE HOUSE?

RE: using open discussion sites like these

msucog,
I have very little hair, but what I have is gray and my thirty years of experience says that over reaching attorneys and their litigious clients are liable to counter-claims and suits.  Fear of lawsuits is a poor excuse for non decision making or not expressing an opinion.  I have been in court on construction claims six times and never has the award been attributed to bad or poor engineering.  Sue me if you dare and I will get rich off of your unreasonable requirement of perfection and 20/20 foresight.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

(OP)
i too am gray...been that way half since i was a teen...i like to think/claim it's premature wisdom creeping in.

i would say your experience is not the norm for larger firms. perhaps i'm wrong. i've seen our firm spend hundreds of thousands of dollars defending ourselves over things that was obviously not our problem. but the only other option is to stare our deductible and insurance folks in the face so we are left with no other option. and by the way, the limitation of liability in not necessarily the terms agreed upon in the contract.

i would love to know your secret...

RE: using open discussion sites like these

I have no Errors and Omission insurance!  I go naked and at each deposition I make sure the opposing counsel knows this fact.  Deep pockets is the first rule of civil suits!  I do what a reasonable and prudent professional would do, follow the applicable code and ignore the code when it is not pertaining to the design problem.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

I still see how the duty to care is established, unless you somehow establish that you're an expert or experienced in your post. Even still, I don't see you establishing tort liability by posting something on a random internet board.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

cedarbluffranch,

   "Hi everybody.  I am designing a methyl isocyanate tank that will be installed next to a daycare centre and a yard full of cute puppies.  What colour should I paint it?"

   There is a wide range of possible answers to this one.  The one that could leave you open to a lawsuit would be to tell him to go ahead.  "It sounds like everything is under control."  If you think the poster should not be doing this, you are under no obligation to jump in a car, drive over to his location and physically assault him.

   There have been cases where people have OD'ed on drugs online in chat rooms, accidentally, or deliberately.  Other people in the "room" contacted authorities, typically, not in time.

                          JHG  

RE: using open discussion sites like these

I'd paint it red. Install it at your convenience.

I don't know anything about methyl isocyanate and I don't think a judge or jury could hold me responsible for saying to go ahead and install it.

How have I established a duty to care? I don't know anything about the chemical and don't care to know anything about it.
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

In which case you shouldn't be responding to the thread with an answer which will be perceived as being professionally knowledgeable.

cheers

RE: using open discussion sites like these

I would go with a rainbow theme.  That will be nice for the kids to look at.
And per my previous post:  You should probably rethink your site for that tank.

Quote (Wiki):

Methyl isocyanate (MIC) is an organic compound with the molecular formula C2H3NO, arranged as H3C-N=C=O. Synonyms are isocyanatomethane, methyl carbylamine, and MIC. It was discovered in 1888 as an ester of isocyanic acid. Methyl isocyanate is an intermediate chemical in the production of carbamate pesticides (such as carbaryl, carbofuran, methomyl, and aldicarb). It has also been used in the production of rubbers and adhesives. As a highly toxic and irritating material, it is hazardous to human health, and was involved in the Bhopal disaster which killed nearly 3,800 people initially and approximately 20,000 people in total.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Of course I shouldn't. That's not being nice, courteous, or proper in our society. But we're not talking about moral or societial obligations. We're talking about is has it been established that I have a legal duty to care and whether that duty has been breached.

While you might hope that I am professional knowledgable, I haven't established myself as a professional and may not even be an engineer or compotent in the advice I'm giving. So I don't see how that constitutes a legal duty to care.

That's the key point in liability - can you establish that I have a duty to care? That'd be a tough argument to make. You can't hold someone liable unless you've first established the duty to care.
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Quote (TDAA):

...highly toxic and irritating material, it is hazardous to human health, and was involved in the Bhopal disaster...

   I was quickly trying to think of something nasty.  Actually, very bad things have been done with molasses.

   I am sure you are safe if you ignore the question, if you red flag the question, or reply questioning the OP's sanity and competence.  The instructions for Eng-Tips state that you should not answer questions unless you are qualified. By answering, you are claiming that you know.  

                             JHG

RE: using open discussion sites like these

You can also think of it this way. In Seattle, we have large homeless population on the streets. When you park your car on the street during the free parking time, and go to pay, a homeless person will run up to you and tell you it's free and you shouldn't pay.

Now, if they're wrong, does that mean you can file a claim in small claims court and require the homeless person to pay your parking ticket? After all, they shouldn't give advice if they don't know what they're talking about.

Or another example is you pick up a hitchiker, and the hitchhiker tells you the speed limit is 65, he saw a sign a while back. Except the speed limit is really 45 and the dude didn't know what he was talking about. You get a ticket, can you tell the officer to give the ticket the hitchhiker since he advised you and told you wrong information?

I don't think you'd get very far in either of these cases because it's hard to establish a duty to care. These are random strangers in your life rather than experts or people who have legal obligation to give you good advice.

Now, instead of a homeless person say it was the parking enforcement official who told you that you didn't have to pay parking. This person has a duty to care because that is her job, and she is wearing a uniform that gives you confidence in her ability, and she is driving a city vehicle. That establishes a duty to care.

So I don't think most people have established a duty to care on the information they provide. When they start saying they are a professional engineer licensed in Nebraska, or they work as a maintenance engineer at Boeing, or any of a number of different cases, they may start to establish some duty to care. But I sitll think it'd be a tough case to make.

Make sense?

RE: using open discussion sites like these

There is no point in suing anyone with no money.
Of course, the lawyers will make their money from one or other party but I wonder what would make it worth tracking you down and suing you?

Of all the people in this internet age who should be hunted out and shot down like a dog, I suspect we are far down the list.

So, while it is something to think about, it shouldn't necessarily affect our posts as we should be posting responsibly to begin with and the real time to worry is when the first case arises or the authorities show signs that there is something to be concerned about and that that concern is likely to lead to some kind of action.

So, do we have any real signs that these fora are considered as a serious litigation potential issue?

I would hazard a guess (should I emphasise "guess"?) that professional indemnity insurance may not be valid for positing in these fora irrespective of the degree of cover you have in your work place.

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Yes what you say is very sensible but, here in Eng-Tips, the perceived 'uniform' is that of a 'professional', and by responding to a question the implication is that you care.

Does that also make sense?

cheers

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Yes, care, but not worry.
If they decide to move in and I am the target, well, that's a good time to declare bankruptcy and move to some country with a warm climate, lots of nicely suntanned ladies on the beach, a low cost of living, cheap booze and no extradition.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

jmw, while reading your reply, I glance out my cubicle window, see the snow squall moving in and am thinking to myself, "What the heck, why wait till they move in? I'll even take the wife if she wants to go with me."

cheers

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Don't bother to move the wife.  Get a new model in the new country for ease in translation and for ownership of real estate.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

But then you have the problem of breaking the new model in. I'm kind of used to the current model and would be hard pressed to find another as accommodating (read tolerant and forgiving) of my ways. Plus I'd like all my pieces to remain attached.

cheers

RE: using open discussion sites like these

It really comes down to the evidence a judge or jury could be presented on the person having a duty to care. Nothing I've posted here has raised my duty to care to make me liable, but perhaps others have posted more information that raises the standard.

In general, though, I don't think there is. If there was, the state licensing boards would have shut eng-tips.com a long time ago for offering engineering advice to the public without a license. Since no state board has complain, I believe we're safe.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

The most dangerous advise given on this site concerns wives. Now that is worth worrying about.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Engineers giving advice on spouses is much like giving advise on being a snappy dresser.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Oh, you mean "Are Nike's and a pen bucket OK for TGI Fridays?"
"Sure."

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

(OP)
what?! a sense of humor on an engineering website? wow! my mind is blown...(gonna be a cold winter apparently)

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Not all engineers come from a certain European country alleged to have the best engineers and no sense of humour (as compensation they get to beat England at soccer any time they meet which then proves the English have no sense of humour either, well, maybe not, you have to have a sense of humour to keep on playing and losing).

Actually, some of the best engineers don't mind humour (or wives) but they do seem to like booze.  

Reminds me of a song I just heard on the radio....by Hank J Williams:
http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/williams-hank-jr/liquor-to-like-her-13147.html
At least you don't need to drink to enjoy the jokes.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

There's more than one?
I stand corrected.
Thanks IRstuff.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: using open discussion sites like these

The British have to have a sense of humor-they cloned sheep before they taught them how to cook.
If a lawyer wants to use this against me, I don't care. If my wife wants to use this against me, it wasn't me, and it isn't funny
Lost my first engineering job with Union Carbide because of Bhopal. It still is not funny.
Worked in Germany for three years. They still are not funny (except at Oktoberfest when they pee in each other's krug if it is left unattended-when you're drunk everything is funny).
I switched to mechanical engineering to learn how to get more head. Is that funny?
If you're worried a lawyer might come back after 5 years to press a due diligence becuase you posted on this site, now you're funny, too.

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Quote (civilperson):

I go naked and at each deposition I make sure...

I wonder how some lawyer in the future will take this out of context.

rmw

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Advice many times is free but mistakes are expensive. So I regard this site like all advice that is free with the all inclusive "Tail light warranty".

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Keep your comments and questions professional and carefully worded. I would leave out things like "I'm note sure how to..." Five years hence you will have five more years of experience so your post today might not be relevant. I take your point, asking in a recorded public forum is a lot different than asking a colleague, consulting a reference, or going to the library. How about it ENG-TIPS, how long do you keep our stuff and is there a legal requirement for you to retain postings forever?

RE: using open discussion sites like these

There is zero legal requirement for eng-tips to do anything, which answers a lot of previous questions...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: using open discussion sites like these

garpe,

   Check out http://www.archive.org and its Wayback machine.

   It does not matter how long EngTips keeps messages.  All sorts of services archive your stuff, including EngTips hard drive backup.  If something you write is clever and entertaining, no matter how unprofessional, it will be spread around the internet and attributed to John Cleese.

               JHG

RE: using open discussion sites like these

Drawoh,
like that wayback machine! It has copies of my website that I don't have anymore.

Of course, there is a time delay.
In Eng Tips I recently started to use the archive threads feature. One thread I wanted to preserve because it amused me and I could see that it would have a very limited life before someone red-flagged it.
Oops. Red flagged threads also disappear from your archive.
Shame.
Of course, the moment you think you may be in trouble, red flag any troublesome posts and get them deleted.
Wayback doesn't have everything so you might get lucky.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

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