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Any - Singluar or Plural?
8

Any - Singluar or Plural?

Any - Singluar or Plural?

(OP)
I got into a scrap with a colleague yesterday about his modification of some text I'd written.  I think he had a bit of an "Al Gore moment".  Anyway, which of these two sentences is grammatically correct?

"I don't think any of our engineers understands grammar."

"I don't think any of our engineers understand grammar."

Simply put, is the subject: "any" singular or plural in this context?

The usual mistake people make is with the word "none", when used as a contraction of "not one".  In this usage it is clearly singular, so this sentence is correct: "None of our engineers understands grammar."  Usage of "none" is discussed at length all over the WWW, but not "any" in the same context.

- Steve

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

think about it this way...

take "any of" out of the first and it reads "i don't think our engineers understands grammar" - now instead of any put a number bigger than one and it still doesn't scan properly e.g. "i don't think two of our engineers understands grammar"

take out "any of" from the second and it reads "i don't think our engineers understand grammar" which is correct, substitute a number bigger than one e.g. "i don't think two of our engineers understand grammar" which still reads correctly.

Cheers, HM

 

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

(OP)
Nope, don't buy that.  If "any" is a contraction of "any one", it is singular.  Besides, things that "scan" aren't necessarily correct.

- Steve

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

From Dictionary.com

My bolding

an⋅y

–adjective
1.     one, a, an, or some; one or more without specification or identification: If you have any witnesses, produce them. Pick out any six you like.

–pronoun
6.     an unspecified person or persons; anybody; anyone: He does better than any before him.
 

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

ok, the first paragraph is correct for one but no others, the second paragraph is correct for more than one

i would have said that "any" is generally not used as a contraction for "anyone"

what about trying to phrase it differently to get your colleague's knickers untwisted! smile

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

I agree with Hamish.  The second sentence reads correctly, therefore it is correct.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

I'm going to weigh in with a plea for singularity.

The fact that "Engineers" is plural is beguiling, but ultimately misleading.

Go back to the meaning of the thing Steve was trying to say in the first place:

To prove the belief wrong, all that needs to be shown is that one of the engineers understands grammar.  This brings with it an implication that the "any" in the sentence could sensibly be expanded to read "any one", and the singular form is therefore correct.  No other interpretation makes much sense.

A.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Make the sentence "I don't think you understand grammar".  "You" can be either singular or plural just as "any of our engineers" can, so the correct verb is the one which goes with the plural subject.   

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

The point I think that is missed is that Engineers is not the subject - it is the object of the prepositional phrase.  People typically will make the verb modify the object of the preposition if it is immediately in front of the verb because it sounds more natural, not necessarily grammatically correct.

I used to say in reports:  "A total of 14 boreholes was drilled."  Most want to say "A total of 14 boreholes were drilled."  Now that would, I posit, only be correct if I wrote it as "Fourteen boreholes were drilled."  Clearly, "A total were drilled" doesn't sound correct; "A total was drilled" does - at least where I come from.

Reminds me of the joy I had when I was able to get a Canadian fried to say "Where's it at?" instead of "where's it?" or better "Where is it?".

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

(OP)
BigH: You pose my dilemma in a better way and with a better example of correct English not scanning well.

I did read your typo as "fired" rather than "friend" the first time through though.  Then again I always seem  to speed-read "Reader's views" as "Reader's wives" on the front cover of our IMechE rag.

BTW, a third party stepped in and rearranged the sentence so as to defuse the situation.

- Steve

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

I don't think a single engineer of the group of engineers understands English. Instead of taking literature and grammatical parsing, they wasted their formative years by attending classes with a minimal number of nubiles.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

At least one dictionary defines the pronoun "any" as meaning either "any one" or "any number or amount", so I think the assumption that it is plural is justified by the latter definition.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Sompting, my first boss was a big fan of re-aranging such sentances to avoid ambiguity, I still try to do the same, but probably fail, as my English is not very good (C at GCSE) and my mixture of US & UK spelling doesn't help.

KENAT,

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RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

(OP)
GCSE!!  That ages you (youngly, if that's a word).  One day I'll find my O'level certificates again.

- Steve

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Well, I was told a C grade or above GCSE was equivalent to an O-Level.

I'm old engought to remember what O-level & CSE's were though, they're what my siblings took.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

At least one dictionary defines the pronoun "any" as meaning either "any one" or "any number or amount", so I think the assumption that it is plural is justified by the latter definition.

I'd been meaning to interject, but hadn't found the time...  It's not clear to me why "any" wouldn't be plural, as in the sentence "Do we have any engineers who understand proper grammar?"

It seems a correct response might be "no, we don't have any engineers who understand grammar."
 

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

ivymike,

I think you and I are agreeing, but in the OP "any" is a pronoun, while in your example it is an adjective modifying "engineeers".  There is a difference in the question, but I think the answer is the same.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

(OP)
ivymike, If it helps, his name is Felix.

- Steve

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

heheh...

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Take out the prepositional phrase "of our engineers", which is immaterial to the main sentence structure, and it reads "I don't think any understand grammar."  

Any, in this case, can be taken as a group (singular) or as individuals (plural).  So, it depends on the intent of the speaker here.  My answer is it doesn't really matter.  The result's the same.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Kenat - C or above equivalent to o' grade? i ought to take offence but life's too short!
I'm hoping you were streamed past the foundation and standard grades to the top level but i can't remember what that was called...must be old age smile

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Hamish,

Careful - O level and O Grade were never the same thing.  O level probably sat somewhere between an O Grade and Higher.

A.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

(OP)
Hmmm, in my GCE years, O grade was basically an A level failure grade.  Your A level score wasn't good enough for an A level pass, but your knowledge would have passed an O level in the same subject (big deal, you would normally already have one).

KENAT was comparing today's GCSE grades to the equivalent GCE O levels of yesterday, the claim being that a GCSE C or above today is as good as a GCE O level of yesterday.

I have no idea what today's A level failure grade is or what it allegedly equates to in terms of GSCEs.

 

- Steve

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

O-Level, not O grade.

I was comparing General Certificate of Scool Education grade C or above to General Certificate of Education Ordinary Level examinations.  Less than a C at GCSE was equivalent to an old CSE, or something like that I can't remember where the overlap fell on the older exams, I think a top grade CSE was about a C at GCE O level.  Just found this that explains it further down the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GCSE

I took my GCSE's at the time they were introducing 'key stage 4' so untill near the end we thought we were going to get grades 1-10 not letter grades, just before final exams they changed back to letters.

For anyone completely lost, simplistically, prior to the late 80's smart kids at age 16 took GCE O level exams, less intelligent kids took CSE's.  These exams then got merged but with different streams.

When I took GCE Advanced level as I recall if you got an 'n' this was equivalent to a GCSE.

When I took GCSE some subjects, notably science & math  had different exams with differing levels of difficulty.  I took the hardest in both subjects.  This meant that something like 20% was a C but less than that you failed.

KENAT,

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RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

(OP)
<cynical mode>

In retrospect, all the changes to the GCE 'O'/CSE/GCSE exams prevented anyone suggesting "grade inflation".  Grade confusion more like.

</cynical mode>
 

- Steve

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Yeah, I remember that a lot of employers when the GCSE's came out couldn't get their heads around it.  They started specifying 5 GCSE grade C or above as minimum qualification.  This was often highter than their old requirements for CSE's etc.  This then led to the push to get more people 5 C's or above, leading to at least perceived grade inflation...

KENAT,

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RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Maybe I'm reading too much into Hamish's name.

The "O Grade" I was comparing with O levels is (was?) an exam in the Scottish system, rather than one of the possible outcomes of a GCE A Level exam (although I do remember that one too, now you mention it).

A.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

2
Either is correct.

Practical English Usage - Michael Swan - Oxford University Press 1980 2ed ISBN  0 19 432298 8.

When " any of "  is followed by a plural subject (enginners), the verb can be singular or plural.  A singular verb is more common in a formal style.  

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

(OP)
Artisi, nice find.  Thanks, I'll look it up.

- Steve

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Steve
In my edition - page 50 Para.7 any and any of; any as a pronoun.  

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

But you want to know the cool thing about language? Its a living being, always mutating and changing. As long as we get enough people on our side, WE can define which one is correct. I propose the following as correct:
"I's don't think none of our engineers can grammer right."

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

If "any" does not stand for "anyone", does it mean that the person asking the question has already made the determination that at least two persons do not understand the grammar and there is no possibility of the answer being, "Oh, one engineer does."??

"Any" certainty is not a contraction for "many".

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

In the context of the statement, "any" means "all" so statement two is correct.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Although the question was well answered by the quoted reference, I'll throw in two cents:
 
I like ivymike's approach of turning the sentence into a question. Except he changed the sentence  a little bit too much which raised and objection.  Let's try again:

Statements:
"I don't think any of our engineers understands grammar."
or
"I don't think any of our engineers understand grammar."

Question:
"Do any of our engineers understand grammar?"
or
"Do any of our engineers understands grammar"

My question:
Do any of our forum members thinks the second question is correct?
 

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

lol. I don't thinks its correct

pipe

Fe

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Oxford should first help those in Britain who are trying to get rid of apostrophes from the street namessmile

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Which brand of English is under discussion -  American, Australia, British, Canada, India, South Africa....?

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

In this case, I believe the answer would be the same regardless of the country.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Either is correct depending on the number of engineers that are referenced: One or more than one.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

I agree with civilperson.  The word "any" can be singular or plural, depending on what you want to say.

"I don't think any one of our engineers understands grammar."
"I don't think any of our engineers understand grammar."
"You drank all the milk and didn't leave any for me."
"Do we have any more nails?"
"Does that make any sense to you?"

BA

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

I'm still pouting over being called Felix.  But now that electricpete has done me one better, I'll give him a star.  After all, this forum is supposed to encourage pedants.

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

(OP)
hokie66, that was just me giving ivymike a clue who the "colleague" was in my original post.

- Steve

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Not me after all?  Oh well, I've been called worse anyway.   

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

Acording to the Writing Handbook, Loyola University Press, 1953 (sorry), "All, any, some, and none are singular if they indicate how much, plural if they indicate how many."  For example, Was any of the cake burned? (singular) and Were any of the cakes burned? (plural).

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

I dont think the word 'any' really comes into it.

for example

"I challenge you to find any one of our engineers that understands grammar"

is correct as it is referring to an individual.

In your case engineers refers to a group and therefore you use the word understand.

 

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

csd72,

How about:

"I challenge you to find any of our engineers who understand grammar"  

BA

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

BAretired,

I would say that one should have an s on it, but...

RE: Any - Singluar or Plural?

It really does not matter what we (especially engineers)think is correct.  A recent grammar book should be believed more than what we think is correct.

I challenge you to find any (of our engineers) who understands grammar.

I challenge you to find any engineers who understand grammar.   

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