Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
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I'm trying to work out the thermal conductivity of a vacuum. It is proving surprisingly problematic.
The theory is this: pressure has very little impact on the thermal conductivity of air. Thus, the intensive measurement of thermal conductivity does not vary with pressure. However, in terms of extensive properties, thermal conductivity in a large space of vacuum/near vacuum begins to drop with pressure due to the kinetic nature of gases. I believe this is around 10-15 pascals where this becomes notable for air.
However, I'm stuck at solving the math. I am looking to construct essentially a panel, one side will be hot, the other will be cold. I wish to use a vacuum to enhance the insulating properties of this space.
I want to model my panel's vacuum space thermal conductivity at varying thicknesses and varying pressures. From here, I can determine what is most appropriate for my application.
There will be no special gases or chemicals involved. Temperature range is 250-300 K typically. It's not rocket science, I just don't have the right math :)
Can anybody help?
The theory is this: pressure has very little impact on the thermal conductivity of air. Thus, the intensive measurement of thermal conductivity does not vary with pressure. However, in terms of extensive properties, thermal conductivity in a large space of vacuum/near vacuum begins to drop with pressure due to the kinetic nature of gases. I believe this is around 10-15 pascals where this becomes notable for air.
However, I'm stuck at solving the math. I am looking to construct essentially a panel, one side will be hot, the other will be cold. I wish to use a vacuum to enhance the insulating properties of this space.
I want to model my panel's vacuum space thermal conductivity at varying thicknesses and varying pressures. From here, I can determine what is most appropriate for my application.
There will be no special gases or chemicals involved. Temperature range is 250-300 K typically. It's not rocket science, I just don't have the right math :)
Can anybody help?





RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
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RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
If anybody wishes to share some constructive information, it would be appreciated.
I am working out all the variables, but it seems quite convoluted, due to the blend of conductance and convection heat transmission that happens. And all the math needs to be re-done for each pressure and thickness I'm evaluating.
It would be easier if I could just moved to a vacuum level below which convection is an issue, but I can't. Preliminary math is showing that I really need to find the lowest acceptable vacuum, because the reality is that creating extreme vacuums can be challenging (or expensive!) in real-world situations.
I've not yet quite put all the math together, and I'm sure there has to be something a bit more... put together. Perhaps a unified formula? Or perhaps a calculator or spreadsheet somewhere?
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
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RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
thread391-210603: Thermal conductivity of a "vacuum"
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
If there is no matter, there is no conduction.
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
I know what kind of a vacuum is in a thermos. But I can't get that low in my conditions, but if I could, I know the conductivity would be so near zero, it doesn't matter. Obviously, a true vacuum has nothing and thus does not conduct any heat. However, this IS NOT a true vacuum, just exceedingly low pressure.
Yes, I am aware of radiative heat. That is a separate issue I am dealing with in another fashion that does not affect the vacuum. My concern in this particular situation is quite squarely conductive heat loss.
To be even more concrete, I want to model the thermal conductivity of a near-vacuum space at pressures between 12 and 100 microns, with a thickness of 1 to 50 cm. The temperature range will be 250 to 300 K.
In this situation, I'm right at the threshold where convection becomes irrelevant. I can see this from working out mean free path distance at those pressures. But since I'm right on the line, it has to be modeled. And for practical reasons, I don't want to be fighting for the last few microns of vacuum if I don't need it. That's why modeling it is so important.
I don't know how to do this, and unless I'm being exceptionally thick today, none of the links or resources suggested as of yet provide a means through which to do this.
Insight would be greatly appreciated!
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
http://bo
and subsequent pages
easier to search than enquire, but it is all fun
"Proceedings of the Twenty-first International Thermal Conductivity Conference, held October 15-18, 1989, in Lexington, Kentucky"--T.p. verso.
Thermal Conductivity 21
By Clifford J. Cremers, H. Alan Fine
Contributor Clifford J. Cremers, H. Alan Fine
Published by Springer, 1989
ISBN 0306436728, 9780306436727
728 pages
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
The thermal conductive changes predictably and is even used for vacuum gages down to a few microns Hg
good luck
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
What makes this messy is that there are two factors at play I need to model, which are not fully being touched upon by any posts to date.
Air is really actually a pretty good insulator, with a thermal conductivity of around 0.024 W/m-K.
Problem is that air suffers from a ton of convection. So when I have a space of air between two panels, the heat differential causes the air to circulate within the space. The net effect is a dramatic increase in effective insulative properties - like on an order of magnitude.
When planning insulating between two panels at sea level, there's a sweet spot around 1.6 cm thickness that provides maximum insulation without letting convection get out of control. Wider spaces tend to be actually less insulating, at least until they are vastly, vastly wider.
There is also the effect wherein dropping pressure reduces the apparent thermal conductivity of the gas. At some point, the molecules become so sparse that they can't move heat nearly so efficiently, and the thermal conductivity drops.
As we reduce pressure, the mean free distance for air molecules increases, and causes convection to be less and less of an issue. For example, at 0.002 kPa, 273 K, and assuming a molecular diameter of 0.3 angstroms, we get a mean free path of about 47 cm. This means that if I had a vacuum in a cube form of 47 cm, half the time the air would hit other air, half the time it would hit a wall.
When we have very low pressure and/or low spacing, the mean free distance is so great there's almost no air-to-air thermal transmission and, quite obviously, almost no convection effect. This is where I can use the readily available data (linked above) on how dropping pressure lowers apparent thermal conductivity.
The problem is that given my spacing and pressure range, the convection model is still potentially relevant. And convection is strongly affected by the thickness of the vacuum space. There is where I run into my problem; I need to model how significant a factor convection is going to be at a given pressure and thickness.
I may be over-thinking this. I'm going to do some more reading, but I don't think anything cited to date really addresses how to model the convection of air at varying pressures and spaces.
I'd certainly appreciate more comments / ideas / direction here.
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
h
Scroll to the second page. It's on a log-10 graph. Also lets you zoom in a lot more than with the prior link.
From what I can tell, I can't easily attain equipment for a vacuum below 0.012 mbar. At 0.01 mbar, we're looking at a thermal conductivity of around 0.015 W/m-K. This isn't really appreciably less than at room temperature.
At the higher end of the pressure spectrum, 0.13 mbar, we're looking at thermal conductivity that's maybe 0.018-0.020 W/m-K - really very close to atmospheric pressure.
Clearly, the question is convection. I just noticed that wikipedia was updated with a good new section on calculating this:
http://e
The problem is that the examples presented are for atmospheric pressure and it's not entirely clear what variables would be altered (aside from thermal conductivity) at lower pressure .
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
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RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
I don't think the convection issue is going to be a show-stopper, but at the same time, I do need to figure it out, and determine workable pressure and thickness ranges.
I have looked at vacuum insulated panels, they're certainly interesting, but not quite what I need here.
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
Personally I would come back to the treatment of heat transmission in enclosed spaces in a heat transfer book: an example is McAdams's Heat Transmission.
That treatment is based on Grashof and other numbers that you can calculate with the properties of air at low pressures (I use for this chapter 10 of Perry's Chemical Engineers' Handbook). Not sure where this could lead, but I can't see other practical routes, besides finding applicable experimental correlations.
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RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
However, I think I was not entirely clear. I'm not asking "let's work through the fluid dynamics of this particular design" - I'm asking "let's get an idea as to how thick a design needs to be when convection will be a significant factor in designing at a given pressure."
I would be very, very happy if I could even just get thermal conductivity into the 0.03-0.02 W/m-K range. It's just that the big question mark around convection is what kills me.
If I can write off convection at doable pressures, or define a maximum amount convection could increase the conductivity at a given pressure, I will have made substantial progress in working things out. Regardless of the design, I can determine the maximum possible thermal conductivity right off the bat. It's basic smart problem solving: use heuristics, don't solve things that aren't practically relevant.
I'm specifically looking at two panels, positioned either horizontally or vertically. Infinite plane model with one hot plane and one cold plane is plenty. Max 250 / 300 kelvin range. Pressure 0.002 kpa to 0.004 kpa. Yes, this is vague, but the point here is a direction, not an exact fluid dynamics simulation.
Best case, we're looking at a scenario where we have a mean free path of 47 cm and a thermal conductivity of around 0.15 W/m-K. So if we had 47 cm spacing between the walls, many of the collisions would occur with other air molecules, but a fair percentage would still be with the direct walls. (It would be 50/50 only if we were using a 47 cm cube model, rather than infinite planes)
Common sense leads me to ask whether that's a point where the convection currents would be significant or not. On one hand, I can see how there's enough air to air contact to lead to convection. On the other hand, I can see how the impacting the walls even 10% of the time could create a sort of "friction" and largely eliminate convection.
I also see how as the molecules per unit of volume drops, convection will become increasingly insignificant, as soon, all conduction is through molecules hitting both the hot and cold panels. It's almost like conductance and convection are one and the same at this point; all heat is transmitted through the same molecules are hitting the hot and cold sides.
So clearly, the potential for convection to increase heat transfer has to be dropping quite a bit with pressure (fewer molecules), long before convection is essentially impossible. If this wasn't the case, we'd see thermal conductivity rising as pressure drops, but it doesn't.
As you can tell from the mean free distance values, we're right in the range where convection is becoming increasingly irrelevant as described. But how irrelevant, given the temperature, pressure and vague thickness ranges I'm working with?
That's the question I want to answer!
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
Most common insulators like fiberglass work by reducing convection so that thermal conductivity is reduced to approach the thermal conductivity of air (as you said air is a poor conductor of heat). I think you are trying to solve a problem that is not there.
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
If you are that worried about convection, then you should baffle the air space, essentially converting it to a closed-cell insulator layer.
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RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
I agree that my use of the terms convection and conductance is not consistent with their general use. Speaking more properly, you are correct, convection diminishes at low pressures.
I know what you are saying about "if it's too close, don't do it" but I am trying to define an approximation of the maximum convection I could be seeing at a given pressure. By modeling a pressure range, I can get an idea whether I'm too close or not.
If I had pressures of 0.0002 kpa, I'd not be talking about this. But the problem is that we're in a transitional place (at least in my head) and I want to work it out because I can't intuitively work it out.
So, back to my question... how can I model or estimate the degree to which convection will play a role in the stated conditions?
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_number
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nusselt_number
Mathcad's Building Thermal Analysis goes through such an analysis for heat transfer through building cavities, resulting in a minimum in the htc at 13 mm for normal air.
As you can see from the articles cited above, you need a bunch of numbers that are not readily available. NIST is probably the place to go: http://fluidproperties.nist.gov/thermal.html
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RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
If I got going with MathCAD, would it be capable of solving some of these problems?
I would still appreciate more guidance on solving for these numbers. I'm getting a sharper and sharper idea of the concepts, but I am still no closer to being able to actually find out the data I want.
One interesting paper:
ht
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
I started a post on the Grasshof and Prandtl numbers, what goes into them, and how to find those values and then deleted it. I figure I need to clarify some information up front. I've read back through both this post and thread378-232020: Assessing degree of convection under near-vacuum. I think that somewhere along the line you switched from being worried about the thermal conductivity to covectivity .. or did you? Also, at the very beginning of the post someone mentioned radiation and you stated that you would "handle it separately."
Conduction, Convection and Radiation (as used in this context) are all methods of Heat Transfer. They all have to be handled simultaneously. Sometimes you can determine that one method is going to be of a significantly higher magnitude than the others and thus ignore them. However, in your case, I'm not sure that you can realistically ignore any of the three.
While I can provide you standard formulas for basic heat transfer and combining the different types, and I can provide you the units for the formulas given in the wikipedia files, obtaining the values is a very different -- and difficult -- issue. Further, the Nusselt formula is going to vary dependent upon the orientation of your proposed plates. And the exact geometry is going to make a difference in how everything combines together.
So, before I proceed further, I'd like to know that what I'm doing is going to be helpful. I would appreciate it if you would think about what information you're willing to provide regarding your project and if you are willing to lay it out without worrying about what type of heat transfer is occurring -- the big thing is what are you trying to accomplish from a heat transfer point of view?
Otherwise, I feel that you are going to be frustrated because you're not getting the help you want and the people responding are going to feel frustrated because they're trying to answer the questions you ask. So far eight people (not counting me) have tried to help, some of whom (such as IRStuff) are very experienced heat transfer engineers.
In my organization we have a story about "show me a rock." The story behind it goes Person 1: "Bring me a rock." Person 2: "What kind of rock." Person 1: "Well, I don't know exactly, but I'll know when I see it." So Person 2 brings in a rock. Then Person 1 finds fault with the rock "it's too big," "this one's too small," "this is almost the right size but it's too shiny..." And after numerous iterations, Person 2 beans Person 1 with a rock and Person 1 says "Well it's not what I wanted, but I guess it will do." Moral is you need to define what you want in order to get the results you desire.
Patricia Lougheed
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RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
Thank you for your detailed reply. I really appreciate your effort.
I started viewing this as essentially a fancy insulation panel for a special project. I began by thinking of the interior of the panel much as I would, say, a styrofoam-type insulation panel encased in another material. Once you know the thermal conductivity of the styrofoam and the external material, the problem can be solved. I was attempting to treat the vacuum like I would a solid insulating mass.
I knew that convection heat transfer was a big deal. But I assumed somebody has simply assembled an equation to solve for it at a given panel thickness and I just vary the thickness and pressure variables and I can solve it for my situation. No clean equation emerged.
As I found out that the thermal conductivity of air had only small reduction with the pressures I was talking about, I quickly realized that convection within the panel was my issue more than conduction.
This lead me to reformulate my question. I did not want to try and model a panel thickness or design, but I wanted to get a useful gauge as to the significance of the reduction of convection at the pressures I am looking at. If the reduction is negligible, this simply won't be useful. If the reduction is 95%, I could mostly write off convection as an issue. The goal was a simple sanity check and heuristic, attempting to avoid the complexity of working the whole model unless proven viable yet also necessary.
Once I either write-off convection or generate an approximation of it (which would involve more math, yes), I can then solve for the effective thermal conductivity of the vacuum space, then the whole panel, using traditional non-kinetic, non-flud thermal models. Those I can handle very easily.
I am aware of radiative heat loss. But for this particular application, I actually will be manipulating radiative heat loss through another mechanism. Conductive heat loss is my only concern for this particular vacuum.
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
Panel size:
120 cm wide
240 cm tall
Panel hot / cold °K:
Typical 250 / 300
Maximum 220 / 320
Panel spacing:
20- 100 cm
Pressure range:
0.01 mbar to 0.1 mbar.
So, essentially, we're looking at a rectangular cube space that is 120 x 240 x 20 - 100 cm. The 120 x 240 cm panels will be exposed to the hot and cold temperatures. The other sides may be assumed to be highly insulated and "ambient" essentially - somewhere between the hot and cold sides.
Obviously, with a variety of temperatures, pressures and thicknesses, the number of possible solutions is quite large. The key here is not that I want somebody solve this for me, I want to know HOW to solve it myself.
Most helpful would be an example calculation using some of the above data *with clear units* so that I can adjust the units and re-do the calculations for variations within the stated range. I might even want to go a bit outside the above ranges, it just depends.
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RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
Apologies, work has gotten busy last few days. I'll try to post something over the weekend.
Patricia Lougheed
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RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
there are plenty of text books that will chart you through the math
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
I have looked at a few different texts and to date, none have fully laid out the convective calculations with suitable units and calculations to allow me to alter pressure and various variables.
I know it's not exactly quantum physics, but I want to get it right.
Looking forward to hearing from Patricia.
RE: Modeling thermal conductivity of a vacuum space
If you get the correct value for standard atmosphere, then you've got the units right, right?
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