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With out these there would be pretty much nothing
6

With out these there would be pretty much nothing

With out these there would be pretty much nothing

(OP)
Machine tools.  

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

atoms

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

3
This thread lacks a point, so I will give it one

.

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

wheels

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

threaded fasteners

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

women...

scary huh...yikes!

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Conciousness, though to be a manager you need no conscience.
But, machine tools?

Good blacksmithing moved us a long way forward and was a vital component of civilisation and the advance of civilisation for far longer than machine tools have been around.

I guess it depends on perspective.
Most kids might argue that the answer is "gameboy" or "playstation" and in the papers yesterday it was reported that addiction to playstations has become a recognised medical condition.

Gee, I guess it's Sunday and I have nothing better to do. Well I will have when the wife catches up with me.... now what did Tnboy82 say was "the one thing" we needed?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Energy

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

2
cable ties, gaffer tape, snot, string.

- Steve

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

duct tape
erasers
flowers

These will get me out of almost any problem.

Beer

This will get me to not care too much about any problem.

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Duct Tape

V

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

fire good!

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Ball Bearings, courtesy of Fletch.

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Intelligence

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Mechanical engineers

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

If 'nothing' is quantitative, is it not measureable?

I can measure the 'absence of anything' as 'nothing'.

Therefore, if 'it' is measureable, is it truely 'nothing'?

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Steam

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Green House Gases!

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

All engineers; practical engrs and graduate engrs alike.

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Lawyers... er, no let me think.. do we need them? OK, I retract.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Quote (plasgears):

All engineers; practical engrs and graduate engrs alike.
Soooo... engineers with degrees are not practical?

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Sadly, I could point to a fair few who aren't.

A.

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Tick,
Not all of the creative eng types were graduate engrs. Engineering schools came some time after key inventions were introduced to civilization.
ME, PE

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Recreational drugs.

- Steve

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

I'm weary of the "can't learn that in college" loop. I've heard it plenty, but not as much as I've needed to explain conservation of energy or entropy or yield stress or linear algebra or mechanical advantage to people who like to spew that phrase.

I can do both, and I'm certainly not ashamed of the fact that I learned things in school that one isn't likely to learn on the shop floor (or courtroom or emergency clinic).  Without my education, I would be just another hack with a chip on one shoulder and a sack of unused potential on the other.

Here's the apotheosis of seat-of-the-pants engineering:
<http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm>

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Star for you, Tick.  That one stings even though I don't think it was aimed at someone like me...


If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS

http://www.eng-tips.com/supportus.cfm

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Time

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Three dimensions

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Realities

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over. - Hunter S. Thompson
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Pretty women

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Ok, just read that thboy82 & theres's no edit. Can I say Agave instead? (that's the plant tequila and mezcal are made of)

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

I ought to say "Au Pair" but I am far too late discovering the real benefits of an Au Pair, so it is GPS.
The obvious benefits of Au Pairs is that they do what you tell them, they can be changed at regular intervals and don't spend all your money. But the real benefit has just occurred to me that they could solve all those navigating problems.

It's like this.
When I was young and single I navigated my self around Europe and even the USA (where sensible maps seem not to have existed until Google and those maps hire car companies hand out always end just when it gets interesting).

Then I got married.

Now any journey further than to the supermarket assumes the dimensions of some Homeric odyssey (and sometimes even the supermarket journeys have their exciting moments for spectators).

OK so any journey in the UK is bad enough with the significant other as navigator but try a trip to Europe.

This last week, I went from Dover to Dunkirk and on to Antwerp. From Antwerp, a couple of days later, to Dusseldorf and then today, home again.

The car has one of those computers that tell you mpg, distance to go before you run out of gas, it will nag you about taking breaks every two hours and so on.
But it doesn't keep score on the number of arguments, wrong turns that are the driver's fault, not the navigator's (don't ask me how that can be) and I would guess if it did it could suitably be record arguments per 100 mile with a factor for the severity of the argument and a factor for the number of junctions at which decisions have to be made.

An exponential multiplier would be necessary for when the driver over-rules the navigator.... rightly or wrongly (rare) doesn't matter... the simple act of not doing as the navigator says carries a heavy penalty.
But then, so does not over-ruling the navigator, especially if it should turn out you knew better all the time.

Forget the WRC where the navigator is giving a running set of directions and has studied the route. Here getting each and every bit of information is like getting blood from a stone.

"All right. ALL RIGHT. I heard you. You want the A57."
"Yes, but which direction?"
"What do you mean?"
"The A57 goes in two directions, one of them the wrong one."
"Well how am I supposed to know?"
"Read the bl**dy map."
I have now slowed to the safest speed at which I can still move without over-running the next junction or being run over by a truck and still haven't got an answer.

Now this "it goes in two directions, one of them the wrong one." smart-arsed answer bites me. The road I am on suddenly thows up a junction for the A57 and I have to take the junction.
There now appears no choice as to direction, there is only one way to go which of course means I am in the doghouse because "she who must be obeyed" was right (???).

Now I am on the A57.
"What do I look for next?" This was not a good question since it appears that having lurched onto the A57 my alligator (sorry, navigator) has lost interest in the map she never opened and is now instead fiddling with the heater controls and the radio. She thinks I am being difficult.

I reckon I need at least 100km between turns just to get through the arguments and explanations as to why I need to know my next move in advance, grovel a good deal, slow down a bit to gain time and then I might get an answer.

Pulling onto the hard shoulder and snatching the map is very bad form, and earns you penalty points.

Four days ago I had explained why, having gone through the Kennedy tunnel the wrong way we now had to go back again. This earned me such a high level hostility with just a few hundreds or meters between junctions that I had to navigate myself through Antwerp Old Town. It was even worse that we eventually got to the hotel.
(I excuse the navigator wrong way round the ring road error. Belgium having renamed their ring road with R1 and R2 and introduced an R10 into an already heady mix of road naming where every country and the EU get to name/number every road, the R1 could variously be the A17, E34 and who knows what else except having started following the R1 it then transformed itself into the R2.
If road naming is a problem, what about the towns... Cologne is Koln, Liege is Luik or something and when the country you are in can't even decide what language to speak and then every couple of hundred kilometers they change the language as well. I guess we all know that Europe is no place to go for a drive with the wife.

So, it appears to me the sensible thing to have done would have been to stay single but get an au pair who would not expect to go everywhere with me and then I wouldn't have to a navigator - I could do it myself again (PS navigating yourself when the wife is in the car is also a very bad thing. I didn't realise this until I tried it. Then it was something about how I don't trust her even with simple tasks... etc.)

But since I am disqualified from having an Au Pair (an Au Pair would end my marriage and my life) and I already got married and thus too late to go for the Au Pair option, I guess it has to be GPS.

But, can you get an Au Pair if you are single? or is this navigational grief pre-ordained torment for all men?
(Unless they are gay and thus don't have a wife to bother them. Oh, well, yes, what if gay men can't navigate either? Who cares? I've problems enough)

So anyway, there you have it, GPS is the next best thing to an Au Pair.  

You, know, I sense there is a flaw in this argument somewhere....
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

See what I mean.  Ha! My girlfriend couldn't navigate her way out of a wet paper bag (she barely knows her left from her right, and seems to think that I can see her finger pointing out of my right peripheral vision when she does navigate), but at least she doesn't nag when I drive and navigate at the same time, she doesn't really nag when we're driving, she saves it for the house.

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Biggest navigation argument in my (former) marriage.

Driver: "Which exit do I want at the roundabout"
Navigator: "360 degrees"
Driver: "What would be the point of that?"
Navigator: "360 degrees is a U-turn"
Driver: "Uh?  Surely 180 is a U-turn?"

Then it went downhill.  Even the nagging was done silently.

- Steve

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Tnboy82, I note your use of the term "girlfriend".
This is when the female is still in the predatory phase, making up her mind whether to keep you or look for someone better, and there are certain liberties you can take.
Once the status changes to that of a permanent significant other e.g. wife, common law wife, or "partner" then expect some changes.

Steve, that is being a "know it all"?
You and I might think these are trivial points and simple one off comments once spoken soon forgotten but experience suggests that these can be collected together and made into a great big case for mental cruelty.
By the way, I haven't been spoken too for the last 14hours since getting back.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Malicious Compliance.

I was driving from Bakersfield to Ridgecrest a few months ago.  I know the way but my wife drives it more often so felt the need to direct me.  We were in a rush trying to get into town before UPS shut to pick up a package they'd tried delivering during the 10 minutes we'd been out of the house that morning.

After coming through the pass on 58 she told me to take the third exit.

I questioned this on the basis of:

1. The first exit used to take you cross country a couple of miles from the 58 to the 14, however, they've since had some significant changes to the road layout but I figured it probably still did the same.

2.  I was pretty sure the second was the actual junction of 14 & 58 but what would I know.

3.  I thought the third exit either takes you into the bottom of Mojave or the middle of no where.

She was not pleased by this and insisted I take the 3rd or 'do what you want' - an options often said but never meant, at least unless you want to face the unmentioned consequences.

I passed the 1st junction without incident.  

At the second I double checked "you said third?" which got a similar response to above.

So I take the 3rd junction.

Hey presto a road that's a dead end Eastbound (but only after a mile or so & round a corner so you aren't sure till you get there) and heads back to Mojave Westbound.

Just to top it off there was a Cop there for some reason, it's hard not to look suspicious when zooming off to a dead end at 70mph.

I don't recall an apology, at least not one with any meaning.

I still got us to UPS on time, only to find my wife & her sister had managed to leave the package ticket at home we stopped for a bathroom break, they couldn't find the ticket and we'd have to come back next day.

Awesome.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

So.. if I follow the posts and refer back to the original quiestion "With out these there would be pretty much nothing"... does this mean that without a wife there would be no nagging; without nagging there would be no wife; but it only happens when the male is driving and has the female in the navigator's place. Which means that if you follow directions and put up with the nagging you will end up nowhere anyways but still be able to reproduce, somehow, even though you're still in the middle of nowhere and thus there will be something opposed to nothing?

Man! this post has really taken an inconclusive, convoluting turn. Probably because we did not follow directions.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

"By the way, I haven't been spoken too for the last 14hours since getting back. "

Bottle it and sell it!

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

On the other hand, when my wife drives and I navigate it is no easier.

I know where to go and how to get there.
The real problem is to get her to take directions.... something she is genetically ill equipped to do and why should she break the habits of a lifetime just to get somewhere on time?

"Get into the right hand lane here and then take the third exit from the roundabout." (i repeat this three times... once about a mile before, once about 1-200yards before and once as we reach the roundabout.
We get into the left hand lane and at each exit she says "This one?"
"No."

This is a no win situation.

I swear the goldfish has a better attention span and is better at navigating (OK, a little unfair since he lives in a spherical bowl and it would be hard for him to get lost, on the other hand, if I put my wife's head in a spherical bowl filled with water......)

Sorry Unotec, and anyway, what original post? Dicer seems to have created the original blank page for us to pour out our woes.

Anyway, I am still not convinced that GPS is the answer, I have nagging worry this really is a no win situation.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Male & Female then to bring it back onto some kind of track.

jmw, there is no answer.  Worst is when they expect you to stop an ask directions.  winky smile

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Ok, so.. if we stop and ask directions, would we get brownie points if we ask a female instead of a male?
However, I must say.. Getting lost has taken me to some of the most beautiful places I've been to.. but also has gotten me into a little bit of trouble in the past.
GPS's are great if you are going to a known landmark and there are no new developments in the area, but if there are or you are in the back country... well... those blasted things keep saying (in a sexy english accented female voice) "please, make a U turn as soon as it is safe". They are no good for finding drilling rigs thumbsup2

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Women.

- Steve

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Somptin, tnboy82 beat you to it. Not only did he, but he also started a complaints argument of men being navigated by women (aka, driven nuts)

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

I think I heard Steve say that with a great deal of resignation and not as a suggestion.

Oh well, what was that saying? Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, get used to it.

By the way, my wife is a great one for asking directions. She'd rather believe some obvious out of towner, some drunk or some bag person than me. She doesn't look out for a policeman or taxi driver, postman or someone who looks like they might actually know something, she asks anyone and they always want to chat for hours.
We once took a two hour walk because she asked someone where the car park was and they should have said "don't know." but my wife said it was over a bridge and he just pointed to the nearest bridge.
The fact that I was right all along didn't help.

Going through the tolls on the Antwerp ring road she asked the lady in the toll booth (why was it a lady?) and before you knew it they were swapping life stories and having a right old gabfest.
Meanwhile there were about a dozen cars piled up behind us and we were about to make the "eye in the sky" report....
"Yes fellow Antwerpians, avoid the ring road in the R2 direction. The tail back from here is already causing major problems at the on ramps for 20 km around. Unless your journey is necessary leave your car at home. We'll let you know when these women have finished chatting and Belgium can get back to normal."

My wife having conducted this conference doesn't actually pay any attention at all to the directions she has been given. She assumes that I will sift the five basic facts out of the hour long chat and remember them (especially when she has conducted the conversation in a language unknown to me).

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

And finally... and believe it or not, the answer occurred on "Have I got news for you five minutes ago"....prompting a quick google and up comes the answer to the problem I posed earlier:

Quote:

Oh, well, yes, what if gay men can't navigate either?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1484346/Gay-men-share-womens-talents-for-map-reading.html

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2347538.html

I now postulate a new "without this there would be nothing":
University researchers who can think up any old thing to study and get a grant for it.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Sorry "Have I got News For You", five minutes ago.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

I think my posting privileges might be revoked after the mess I've started.  :)

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

tn, don't worry, just yet. Wait 'till the engirlneers get wind of this and I think ALL our privileges will be revoked for a while

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Well, I appear to have survived Christmas, the new year dinner and our wedding anniversary unscathed. Of course, I won't know for sure till the next argument when I will pay particular attention to see what new crimes have been added to the list.

Oh, there is one that passed without censure at the time but who knows what will be made of it in the future; I advised all and sundry it was our tenth anniversary whereupon at our anniversary dinner party my colleague publicly worked out that it was our 11th. Now how do you pass that one off?

The subject of navigation came up.
He had just driven 300miles to get to us with his wife navigating and they only argued once or twice (but did not advice as to the duration of the arguments).
His problem is that she is not only a woman but dyslexic and dyslexics, he informs me, also have problems sorting out their right and left.

That must have been some journey.

In line with the topic of this thread I can confirm that Santa delivered me a "Satnav".

Significant other isn't impressed, she doesn't like the voice.
I tried the British English first.
No good. Then I tried the US English and she found the accent irritating.
So then I tried German. For some reason German is a man's voice and she didn't like that.
Then I discovered that if I deviate from the route there is a significant pause and then it says "Recalculating", exactly capturing my significant others tone when reproving me.

Still, I think I have her won over after promising she could use it and have spent some time carefully programming it with all her favourite haunts.
The only problem is that I have to teach her to use it and train her not to leave it in the car (a rag top).... she has a history of parking her car where and when she wants and disappearing into Bistros cafes etc leaving all her shopping/luggage etc arrayed in full view for the convenience of thieves.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

The GPS won't stop the navigation arguments in the car.  Now, you will have the GPS telling you to turn left, but your wife is telling you to turn right.  Do you

a) Turn left and get to your destination, but suffer the wrath of your wife because you believed a silly computer rather than her.

b) Turn right, the GPS will now be telling you to turn around when possible.  This will irritate your wife so she turns it off and you get hopelessly lost.  Because you have the GPS you don't have a map in the car and the wife refuses to let you turn it back on.

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Life isnt so bad after all..... his'n'hers GPS.

I solved the problem by buying my wife her own GPS, paying particular attention to such features as the ability to customise the colour scheme and to be able to download voices.

She was much impressed by her friend Sandra's practised use of GPS to get around Dusseldorf at night and anything Sandy can do...

So she now has a choice of male or female voices in whichever language she cares to listen to, nice colours and the ability for her computer to tell mine what is wrong.

So now instead of us arguing, the two GPS argued on their first outing together (to a known destination). This because the wife has set the wrong destination, I presumed. However since mine was talking English and hers was talking Turkish or some language I didn't understand but she did (subtle, that, I could have followed German or French) the "alternative route" judgement was allowed to stand.

Driving herself she is as happy as can be with it.

Downside: she is now planning extended shopping trips to distant and expensive locations and will take her friend. So now shopping will be more frequent and more expensive.

The words "Berlin" and "Paris" keeping cropping up and I am nervously awaiting the day she discovers I'm the one with Western Europe Mapping and her GPS only has UK and Ireland. (I'm not a complete idiot).

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Keep it coming JMW, this is better than The Archers.  What's going to happen next?

- Steve

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

MacGyver.

James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

SomptingGuy (Automotive)
  The Archers? Don't tell me that show is still running in the UK.
B.E.

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Yep, still going.  My mother listens to it every week.  I recall Billy Connolly's suggestion that it's theme tune should be our national anthem.

It has quite a full wikipedia page, so train spotters must also still listen to it.

- Steve

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Er, GPS and wives.

So last week I was in Denmark and she got ambitious.
Outbound journey 40minutes, homeward bound 2 hours and 30minutes.
Why?
Because, for the first time in her life, she starts looking at road signs and seeing one she didn't like, she turned off.
"Recalculating" and "Turn around" messages fell on deaf ears as she drove in any direction but the right one and she finally persuaded some woman in a car park to lead her out of a one way system (in some town she has never been to before) and point her in the right direction.

Now, you may well ask, what is the point of a GPS if you don't do what it says?

When my wife is passenger in a car her self assumed responsibilities are: climate control, media control and talking.
 
What she never does is pay attention to the road, directions or anything external (unless we go past a shoe shop). So I could be taking emergency evasive action avoiding jack-knifing lorries or whatever and she  will say, all cross like, "Are you listening to me?" ("No." is apparently the wrong answer so even in the midst of a 4 wheel slide one must remember to say "Mm hmm. Yes dear." and nod occasionally)
 
So, on a route we have driven together for 4 years she is completely surprised by what the signs say and on her own with satnav she gets lost.

If I comment on her navigational skills I get the usual "I've driven all over the world without a problem."
Yes, that's true, she has driven all the way from Berlin to Tehran, from Berlin to Rhodos and she has even taken her car to India. (Not a good idea, she overtook a bus in her VW Thing, encouraged by the bus drivers hand signals and woke up in hospital.)

Well, all I can say is that you have to hand it to the German Automobile club and their route planners.
Maybe they use hypnosis on their female clients?
Maybe they impregnate the route plan with memory RNA, or just possibly, the Germans have discovered how to make women follow instructions?

But GPS is still one of those "without these we'd be nothing" things.
  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

To the OP, via a tortuous route: Maps!

I can read them all night like books.  I hate GPS and other systems that describe the journey in terms of turnings and your current position rather than being able to look down from above.

I've heard that map vs journey-recipe is a brain-type thing.

- Steve

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

Star to SOmpting guy.
Yes, Maps but also, Google Earth.
I just wish with Google earth they would let you browse back in time as far as the photos go.
I also wish they had decent resolution over Scotland, France and a few other countries. Maybe this is a regional thing? Because I'm Uk is that why Scotland is seen through a fog at high res?

Next step is to take Google Earth and airbrush out recent developments and to try and recreate relative man made intrusions at each dateline. Then select zoom or flight simulator!

Interesting to see that Google earth has allowed biologists to discover an unexplored forest in Africa where they discovered many new species (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthpicturegalleries/3901029/Mount-Mabu-Mozambique-Scientists-discover-new-forest-with-undiscovered-species-on-Google-Earth.html) and that Egyptologists, working with the earliest B&W sat photos (from before there was too much development and pollution locally) were able to discover the location of the forts along the original coastline at the time of Rameses (http://www.tvthrong.co.uk/secrets-egypt/rameses-78), just as archaeologists benefited by studying Luftwaffe reconnaissance photos of the UK (plus they became much used in rights-of-way disputes).

Of course, from maps you get to place names and place name history. That bring you not just maps, but books. My wife has made me clear out a few box loads but I still have a couple of thousands, book shops are to me what shoe shops are to the wife except books are cheaper and don't involve so many assistants having to receive treatment for post traumatic stress disorder.

So, I'll expand the list to GPS, Maps, Google Earth and books.

But,
"The Map is not the territory." (Alfred Korzybski)
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

jmw, that's just cause that's how Scotland iswinky smile.

As to the shoes thing, for the most part my ball and chains shoes are cheaper than my books, with the odd exception.

Of course, she must have had close to a 100 new pairs of new shoes in the time I've known here while I've had maybe 5 books I really wanted.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: With out these there would be pretty much nothing

The great thing about books is you can read them again and again...  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

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