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Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees
3

Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
Hey all,

I am a relatively inexperienced engineer working for a seasoned engineering manager. We work for a consulting firm, doing civil-related projects.

She has about 10+ years of experience with this company and I have been here less than 2 years. We are both P.E.s.

My question is to those who have managed inexperienced engineers before. How do you handle mistakes and/or omissions made by those that work for you?

I try to be as thorough as possible with specifications, reports, plans and the like - but it always seems like I've missed an obvious (to my boss) item. She ends up very unhappy and eventually takes over my projects to 'clean them up'. At times, she has not assigned projects to me because she says she can finish them quicker and 'correctly'. She has admitted she is 'nit-picky' at times, but that doesn't change the way she approaches my work.

How can I address this issue? I'm starting to lose motivation and desire to do my best because nothing appears to be good enough. And I can't seek advise from others here because we're such a small group - there isn't anyone else I can turn to!

Advice? Thoughts? Should I suck it up and stop complaining?  

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Ask to do some field work.  It will give you a sense of how errors affect the job & next time you put together plans/specs, you will be further ahead of the game.

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

3
thread768-231274: Engineering Managers and Inexperienced Employees

I help supervise interns.  I also conduct product documentation verification (Ok, drawing check) for more experienced staff.

So I get to encounter peoples errors a lot.  Most of these errors are people failing to comply with documented standards and procedures.

I don't have trouble helping people out the first time they make a mistake.  However, I expect them to learn from this, take notes or whatever as required.

The second time they make the mistake I'm a bit less patient, depending how complex the issue is.

The third time I tend to be a bit short with them.

The forth time, bring an extra generator on line we're going to be lighting up the chair...  

I think I've been doing this too long, I now have very little patience, maybe she's in the same boat.  I also find myself in the position where doing it myself from the start would be less painful than teaching someone else to do it, helping them do it, giving them feedback to make corrections and finally taking it over and having to clear up the mess anyway.  I try to be patient but when I'm slammed with work my patience wears thin.

My boss says I'm too much of a perfectionist and too controlling, so I try and keep that in mind as well.  I also try to keep the old '...teach a man to fish' saying in mind, but especially with interns that's even difficult as I know that in 6 months time I'll have new interns to teach how to fish.

So – take it as a challenge.  When I started out no matter how careful I was my drawings got bled on.  I took it as a challenge to become the best I could be and get at least one drawing through with no red!  Not sure I ever managed that second part but I did get good enough that I now review other peoples drawings.

Also, take note of mistakes she points out, and try to extrapolate that to not just identical issues but even just vaguely similar ones.  Also read up on relevant standards, policies, procedures to improve your self.  Make sure and leave time to incorporate anything she finds, don't just give it to her a day before it's due.

By all means talk to her about it but before this carefully examine your own role in this apparently dysfunctional relationship, identify any of your issues and try to correct them, or have a plan for correcting them.  Just going to here and basically saying 'you're mean to me, stop it or I'll cry' isn't going to help much.

Chances are you're both at fault, you have limited control over her faults but you may be able to do something about yours.
 

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
I do that already.  In fact, I don't usually start drafting project documents until after I have visited the proposed job site.

I guess what also burns me up is the fact that my boss also makes mistakes (I hear her in her office defending her actions) but, somehow, my mistakes are worse.

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
wow.  thanks, Kenat.  good advice.

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Quote:

obvious (to my boss)
Are these genuine errors of omission, things you would retrospectively agree you should have done?
Or are they things she should have stated she required at the outset but didn't?
Or is she deliberately making life difficult?

One thing you could do is review some previous reports etc. prepared by herself or for her by other engineers and see if those things you have omitted have previously been included.

If she is being genuine then you will find the things she expects have been delivered in the past by other engineers. If they aren't there, why not? What has changed since then?

Without some examples, it is hard to say if what she is asking if is what other engineers would normally include.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
Some are honest mistakes, like, I failed to back-check myself or I made one change which affected another plansheet, but didn't follow through.

Other 'misktakes', though, appear to be preference.  The dog chased the cat versus the cat was chased by the dog, so to speak.  At least, that's how it appears to me.

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Couple more things - design 101 is "know your requirement" this goes for documentation etc. not just the actual engineering.  Maybe you can work with her to improve this aspect.

Second - everyone makes mistakes.  I recently inherited a job that at least 3 other people have failed to do properly.  I spent a bunch of time on it, dotting i's and crossing the t's as it were.  Finally I think I'm done with the drawing, I've looked it over, having first left it a while etc.  Pass it to someone else for review and they still found a stupid mistake - I'd put the same designator twice on someting.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
Oh, and another item:  Before I came on board, she _was_ the department.  I'm the only other engineer that has worked directly for her since she's been in charge of this department.

The second engineer that came on board is older - and neither one of us can stand him.  But that is a whole 'nother thread!!!

So, it is her, the two project engineers (myself and Older), two draftsmen, one engineering technician, and field crew (as needed).

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

It may just be that while she's perhaps a good engineer she's not a good manager and/or doesn't have the best people skills.

If she was the department then maybe she has a bunch of her own rules etc that were never written down, maybe you can help document these for the benefit of the rest of you.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Everything you said in your OP is something I would have said when I first had to manage other people, so I personally stopped do that; managing others, that is winky smile

Unfortunately for you, she doesn't appear to have a management mentor, one that can identify her "mistakes and omissions" relative to managing her group.

There may be nothing that you can realistically do about it.  You can try talking to her, stressing that you want to learn and hope that she can teach you the skills and processes for becoming a better engineer.  Try to avoid talking about her management style, at least, until you're on firmer footing.

Frankly, this sort of thing occurs at just about every level and every age.  I see this with my son's high school drill team commanders, and how they approach situations like this.  Unfortunately, as with adults, someone who is even reasonably good at management is seldom to be found.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
Ok, so I guess my 'take-away' from all this is to survive until I gain enough experience to become a manager myself?

(sigh)....well, thanks for everyone's advice.  I though about talking with her superivsor, but I feel that will just make things awkward and difficult between us.

I think at this point I'll grin and bear it.  Because I carry no weight in my company, I can't complain because it'll be her word against mine.  I could talk to her, but how do you explain to your manager how to manage you???

Thanks again.  Maybe I'll go have a beer after work........or three.......

=o)>

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

I wouldn't just grin and bear it as such, like I said maybe you can't do much about her side of the issues but you can about yours.

Also you don't have to become a manager, and even if you do unless it's your company you'll still have a manager or your own, or share holders or something.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
My professional goal is to move up in my current organization because - all complaining aside - I am very happy doing what I do, with the organization that I am in, at the pay scale I'm on.

I want to eventually become a manager.

I will certainly look at improving my work (thanks, in part, to the sage advice I've read here) but it would be nice to be able to separate personal preferences from unsound engineering.  Sometimes (due to my inexperience, I believe) that is difficult for me to do.

Thanks again!

 

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

By 'your side of the issues' I didn't just mean improve the quality of your work.  Maybe you can work on how you deal with her, manage your manager as it were.  Also, maybe you can document her personal preferences and make them department policy.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
Manage my manager.

I like that.  I'll just have to figure out how......

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Errors are probably the most frustrating thing in engineering. The hard thing is engineering is very black and white so errors will be everywhere.

I agree that engineering is a learning experience. You don't learn in college how to error check your own work very effectively, and even so that's primarily checking equations, formulas, and math. Real life you're checking drawings (at least in my field) and data tables. It's much different.

It can be helpful at times for the more senior engineer to simply do the work and then go over with you exactly what they did so you don't have to muddle around doing it. But, at the same time, the company hired you to do the work and needs more than the 1 other engineer working there. So, yes, the company is expecting the more senior engineer to help you learn the ropes.

One thing I've found is the "new engineer" title never seems to go away. Every group that I've worked with have their own processes and procedures. Even if you've worked in industry for 20 years, you'll have the learn the ropes everytime you join a new group. Even at my company (Boeing), I'm still considered a newbie everytime I change groups and that's frustrating.

Good luck!

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Management isn't for everyone; certainly isn't for me.  

A couple of things that you can take away from this situation are:
>  Use every opportunity to observe others' management styles.  Determine what goes right and what goes wrong.  I try to show my son how others behave and what to learn and take away from each management encounter and experience.

>  Try to visualize what you might normally do given a subordinate like yourself.  The basic "walk a mile in their shoes" thought experiment.

The end goal is to learn what not to do.  You might never see anything done correctly, but you should accumulate all the wrong ways to approach each situation.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

s0eebuch.
Unfortunately it seems as though the supervisor may also be a control freak.
Additionally, you mention that she was also
"the department"and herein lies more of the problem.

It is very difficult to delegate, after having had to do it all one out.

Been there, done that-when the pressure is on, it is very difficult to delegate and get the required results back as required, when in the past, experience allows a sole operator to make decisions on the run(usually based on proven short cuts in some cases) and in most cases get the desired result. That is where the "should have done it myself" attitude comes into play.

But this does not help the person who in most cases is doing their best that they can.

And before getting assistance (you) she would have had to take responsibility for any stuff ups and now is not prepared to take yours,even though she may have made the same errors herself.

But there is an old saying: you can delegate but you still must accept responsibility.

As other respondents have flagged, you can only do your best, but if you continue to make the same errors, you need to re-assess your own efforts.

I feel that there is no harm in having a face to face discussion with your supervisor, but more important is to try and get a feel for what the requirements are for each specific project and the desired expectations.
Don't get into personalities and maintain a professional air for that is what you are trying to achieve.

May I suggest 4 beers but don't drive
Cheers
Ross
  

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Hey s0eebuch,

A few people have mentioned the obvious i.e. that EVERYONE makes mistakes, whether they are actual mistakes or missing something obvious that would make a project/document/etc better. Experience is no bar to this which is exactly why many companies have cross checking procedures.

My question is this: you are both PEs - she checks your work, so who checks hers?  

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
Awesome; great points, all of you.  I just submitted a set of plans to be reviewed and was glancing over her comments.  I feel better because, even though the first two pages are bleeding, most of the comments are preference - not errors or omissions.  

Could this be a sign of progress and improvement on my part?

Ross0684 - I've considered the 'control freak' aspect.  But I am in no position to address that, esp. if she doesn't acknowledge any problems with her management style.  Like others have said, I can only address my work and how I respond to her management style.

HamishMcTavish - lol, good point!  There are projects I'm not involved with that I assume she has other engineers in our other offices check over her work for her.  At least, I hope that's the case!  It is company policy to have others review any work going to a client - I am sure she follows that policy.

Again, the biggest issue is how unique each of our projects is and the fact that each client has their own set of rules when it comes to designs, plans, specifications, and engineering reports.  In other words, while client A is a huge stickler on plan notes, client B may feel all significant notes are covered in their standards.  Client C wants PVC pipe for all their sewer, yet Client D holds to the idea that ductile iron is the way to go.  So, not only do we juggle the various design aspects of each project, we also juggle the needs/preferences of each client.

I guess another point I should make is the fact that, even though she comes across as unhappy at times, she says she doesn't regret hiring me or bringing me into her group.  In fact, she was even downright positive in my last performance evaluation.  Of course, those don't always mean what they say....I've been around long enough to know that much!

It just seems like doomsday/end-of-the-world when I goof.
 

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

s0eebuch, you have mentioned more than once the belief that some of her complaints appear to be preference rather than right/wrong decisions.  I don't have the answer for you but I certainly identify with your concern.

I have found that most "preference" issues from engineers who check the work of other engineers fall into two categories.  First there is the ever-present and universally hated, "Well, that is the way we did it in my last company" line.  Often when this is the attitude, the checking engineer is simply used to a certain manner of depicting something, and wants to see similar things depicted in a similar manner.  The problem is that sometimes checking engineers get the feeling that this is the "right" way, which usually morphes into the "ONLY right way".  It is frustrating to deal with because while engineering design is a pass/fail (either the design lives up to all its intended purposes or it does not), their are often within accepted standards many right ways of depicting the design intent.

The second category is much more useful, in that a truly experienced and knowledgeable checking engineer may be telling you (not in these exact words), "I am aware that there a number of acceptable and legitmate ways to depict this design intent, but I would like you to know from my extensive experience that this specific manner of depiction is very well accepted and understood in our industry by our manufacturing employees, by our customers and by our regulatory authorities, so by following my lead you can improve your (and our company's) success rate."

Heaven help you though, if a checking engineer living in the first category is convinced they are operating in the second!!

debodine

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Please forgive my inappropriate use of the word "their" in my last post.  The sentence should have read, "...it does not), there are often...

I am not aware if the ability to edit a published post exists on this forum, and I should have proofread more thoroughly.

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
Thanks, debodine.  Oddly enough, I knew what you meant (from the context of the entire post) and was able to 'mentally' correct your use of "their".

Yeah, I think my boss falls in the second category on most items.  On the remaining items - well, I take them as they come.

It's funny - one of the marks on my last set of plans was a big question mark next to a weld detail for a cap on top of a steel bollard (just a length of pipe, really).  She's a civil engineer, I'm mechanical - it never crossed my mind that she wouldn't be familiar with a weld detail!  I wonder if there are other areas like this that aren't as obivous to me.......hmmmm, makes me think.......

:)

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

I was mentored by a guy who would take my new attempts at drawings and designing, and sit down for an hour after normal work hours and he would mark up the drawings at a table with me and explain why he was marking up whatever.  I learned quickly the what and the why of the drawings and details, and tried not to make the same mistake twice.  After about a year of that, he left me alone except for the usual round-table pre-tender checks to catch the usual stuff that feel between the cracks.

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Are you saying she didn't recognize a welding symbol?  As a civil engineer, she should.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Debodine has a good point, I sometimes struggle to make sure I'm checking to published standards etc, or genuine 'best practices' not just my own habits, preferences etc.  It's amazing how hard this can be at times.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
Hmmm....good point.  Perhaps she was questioning why I included the weld detail?  My thought was that if the contractor tried to build his own bollards, I gave him the information he needed to do so (i.e. material call-outs, weld detail, elevation and profile views, ect.)

I haven't had a chance to speak with her concerning her comments yet....I'm sure I'll find out why she's questioning it.

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
nope, she didn't know what a weld detail was.  

Also, I wonder if she's reading this post - yesterday she reviewed a set of plans I'd laid out and her mark-ups were minimal.  Overall, she said the plans looked very good.

So...either I'm improving or she read this post.   ???

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

sOeebuch, this is not a forum for paranoia nor idle speculation.

We like measureable testable propositions.

I know students aren't supposed to post on this site (but some do) but whatever we may think of managers, they are allowed so it is quite possible.

Is it probable your manager is reading this post?

The approved NDT procedure in this case is to now say something really nice and complimentary about her.
Measure her attitude to you over the next couple of days and then come back and say something uncomplimentary and pretty rotten.

Iterate until convergence on a conclusive solution.

Report the results for discussion and analysis.

(PS, for this test, be sure your CV/Resume is up to date)
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

(OP)
LOL, good stuff!

Oh, and I prefer 'protege' to student - but I get the idea.

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Are you sure that test method falls into the NDT category.....

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Well, now you come to mention it.....

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Whenever I mark up plans, I make it a point to try to sit with whoever did the plans to go through what mistakes were made or design considerations along the way.  This makes for a much more intelligent workforce, and it is much easier to communicate future requirements/changes that take place during design.  It really comes down to what kind of work your company does in terms of how able a manager can do this for you.  As a young engineer, I've been in your shoes, feeling extremely frustrated with a manager's lack of willingness to invest time and apparent caring in someone else.  

In my mind, the ability to show some empathy and get beyond pure management to leadership is what will enable a manager (and organization that is dependent on the manager) to reach the next level.

But the trump card here is that, a worker needs to be competent and show that he/she is learning and the company's investment in them will pay off.
 

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

Every experienced engr should have the opportunity to mentor recent grads. The best example for me was an MME who was an expert in fracture mechanics. I worked it into my design, and it turned out to be an inspiration to the customer, the USAF. They incorporated it into wing design reqts.

To make this work, hire the best. It makes for good cross-pollination.

RE: Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees

for those things you keep missing, do you know why it's neccessary for them to be on plan?  she might not be a good mentor.   

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