"Practice" of Engineering
"Practice" of Engineering
(OP)
So, the first question is, according to engineering ethics and the laws of the respective state boards, what specific actions by an individual would constitute "the practice of engineering"?
The second question is, would those same actions constituting "the practice of engineering, necessarily require state licensing to legally and ethically perform such actions? If not, then under what circumstances?
The second question is, would those same actions constituting "the practice of engineering, necessarily require state licensing to legally and ethically perform such actions? If not, then under what circumstances?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering





RE: "Practice" of Engineering
In California, there are a variety of exemptions, too many to list here.
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RE: "Practice" of Engineering
htt
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Not being a PE, I have not thoroughly read through them (and don't really intend to)
Regards,
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
"§7201. Definition of practice of engineering.
The practice of the profession of engineering is defined as performing professional service such as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, design or supervision of construction or operation in connection with any utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works, or projects wherein the safeguarding of life, health and property is concerned, when such service or work requires the application of engineering principles and data.
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§7202. Practice of engineering and use of title "professional engineer".
Only a person licensed or otherwise authorized under this article shall practice engineering or use the title "professional engineer".
This is for New York State.
Regards,
Dermott
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
§ 1001.003. Practice of Engineering
(a) In this section:
(1) "Design coordination" includes the review and coordination of technical submissions prepared by others, including the work of other professionals working with or under the direction of an engineer with professional regard for the ability of each professional involved in a multidisciplinary effort.
(2) "Engineering survey" includes any survey activity required to support the sound conception, planning, design, construction, maintenance, or operation of an engineered project. The term does not include the surveying of real property or other activity regulated under Chapter 1071.
(b) In this chapter, "practice of engineering" means the performance of or an offer or attempt to perform any public or private service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training, and experience in applying special knowledge or judgment of the mathematical, physical, or engineering sciences to that service or creative work.
(c) The practice of engineering includes:
(1) consultation, investigation, evaluation, analysis, planning, engineering for program management, providing an expert engineering opinion or testimony, engineering for testing or evaluating materials for construction or other engineering use, and mapping;
(2) design, conceptual design, or conceptual design coordination of engineering works or systems;
(3) development or optimization of plans and specifications for engineering works or systems;
(4) planning the use or alteration of land or water or the design or analysis of works or systems for the use or alteration of land or water;
(5) responsible charge of engineering teaching or the teaching of engineering;
(6) performing an engineering survey or study;
(7) engineering for construction, alteration, or repair of real property;
(8) engineering for preparation of an operating or maintenance manual;
(9) engineering for review of the construction or installation of engineered works to monitor compliance with drawings or specifications;
(10) a service, design, analysis, or other work performed for a public or private entity in connection with a utility, structure, building, machine, equipment, process, system, work, project, or industrial or consumer product or equipment of a mechanical, electrical, electronic, chemical, hydraulic, pneumatic, geotechnical, or thermal nature; or
(11) providing an engineering opinion or analysis related to a certificate of merit under Chapter 150, Civil Practice and Remedies Code; or
(12) any other professional service necessary for the planning, progress, or completion of an engineering service.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
There are some common elements in most state registration laws. In most cases if you offer engineering services you must be registered. Some people try to skirt the law by offering design services. In a state that exempts single family residential construction from the state registration laws you might be able to offer design service for single family homes. If you are not registered or working under the direct supervision of a registered engineer, you can't offer to perform work that the state requires to be performed by a registered engineer, no matter what you want to call your efforts.
A second item is whether or not you charge a fee. In some states there is a lot you can do if you are not charging
for your services.
The purpose of state registration laws is to protect the public where life safety is an issue. In some states you might be able to sell I-pods and call your self an audio engineer. In other states the registration laws are such that they could require you to be registered before doing that. In some states even though your action might be illegal, the state board might not care enough to take any6 action.
I think it would be nice if there were more restrictions on the use of the term engineer. However train operators have always been called engineers so you don't have to be registered to call your self a train engineer.
Personally I don't like the term software engineer or MSCE where it means Microsoft Certified Engineer.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
Just had to say that.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
Take the case though of the College professor, who has a Doctorate in his engineering discipline, but is unlicensed as any type of engineer. He has published many research papers and is known nationally. He is a recognized member of a National engineering organization. As an individual, separate from his university, he gives expert witness reports and testimony employing the engineering principles of his engineering profession and receives compensation for it.
This sounds highly unethical and illegal to me. Am I missing something? Any comments?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
I earned the PE, but I know an MME who failed. The review process included a brief interview during the course of the exam. I think he failed during the interview. He was foreign born with a marginal command of fluent english.
My estimation is that the PE is the legal approval for practice of engineering, and those otherwise qualified as experts need not qualify for the PE. In some industries [e.g. structural] it is mandatory.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
In most states the courts define who may provided expert witness testimony. In the case you describe I would consider the person an expert in his or her field. In court the judge might decide the person is not an expert, while at the same time taking expert testimony from an actor who played an engineer as one of his roles.
I am aware of a case similair to what you describe where the professor was doing consulting work, in that case the state board charged him with violation of the engineering practice requirements. The person then was required to get his P.E. before doing that type of work again.
A simple example would be a college proffesor, who teaches structural design. In Minnesota they could not design a Shopping Mall unless they were registered or work under the direct supervsion of a P.E.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
An application section applies to engineering educators who can seek licensure based upon a doctoral degree in engineering by an EAC/ABET accredited university or other field of science or math. They still need reference statements or letters from licensed PEs knowledgable of their experience.
Curiosly, expert engineering testimony is listed among the engineering experience that can be considered for the purpose of obtaining a license (§133.43 (I)). I wonder if it counts toward or against the individual.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
It depends on the court (state or federal) and the state licensing board (and how involved they may want to be).
Several years ago I questioned the qualifications of an expert witness. The attorneys (on my side) relayed that it is somewhat arbitrary and they can be challenged.
PE's in New York State can generally be expert witnesses and the PE is the proof. In this state it appears as though courts recognize a license as conferring a certain level of expertise that would not be given to a layman.
On the other hand, I've seen opposing attorneys at deposition dig into qualifications and resumes of PE's in a very detailed, challenging and embarassing way.
Not really knowing, I'd guess the prof will be considered an expert witness if the issue involves his(her) area of expertise.
Good luck,
Dermott
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
1. If you are on the stand and they ask you if you are an expert, you better say Yes.
2. As far as I am aware, at least in a few states, you can't be forced to give expert witness testimony unless you are being paid to do so.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
There are some practices that seem to be fairly common that don't seem to be allowed by the rules. And there are practices that were apparently common in the past that are no longer allowed. The rules change, and people doing engineering, especially under various exemptions, may or may not be aware of (or care about) the changes. Don't just assume that because someone says it's okay, or they've been doing it that way for 20 years, or they can't see why it wouldn't be allowed, etc., that it is okay.
Theoretically, any job that requires a PE to properly do, should also serve as adequate experience for getting a PE license, if that helps.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
Will the court allow an unlicensed individual to give expert testimony? The lawyers will state why or why not, and the judge will decide based on the arguments. The question of licensure may or may not come up.
Does providing expert engineering testimony qualify as engaging in the practice of engineering so that state licensure is required? I am not aware of any exemptions for this so I will say yes. By the way, the lawyer, defendant, claimant, or respondent who paid his fee is a member of the public. They probably also have the individual's business card, which I expect does not just state that the professor is available for lectures.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
An expert witness is not necessarily doing either.
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RE: "Practice" of Engineering
Legal interpretations vary from state to state on the issue.
The unlicensed expert should expect to be reported to the state licensing board in question, courtesy of opposing counsel.
Assuming the board did not rule in his favor, the unlicensed expert may then find it difficult to collect his fee, since an illegal contract is unenforceable.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
Could you p[lease scan and post that article? I would like to read it. Thanks.
The fee collection is probably a moot point here due to the time issue. Interesting though.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
Question: I have been asked to provide an expert opinion regarding litigation in Indiana. I am licensed in New York and Vermont. The engagement arose through a referral from a mutual friend; I do not advertise or solicit business in Indiana. Since the matter is within my area of expertise, and since there are no conflicts of interest, I am interested in working on the case. My question concerns whether licensure in Indiana is required, and if so, at what point in the process it would be required. (New York)
Answer: Legal interpretations vary from state to state regarding whether serving as an expert witness constitutes the "practice of engineering" under a state's engineering licensure law.
As a general rule, the determination of whether an individual may testify is made by the state court under constitutional separation of powers principles. However, an engineering expert unlicensed in the state in which he or she is offering or providing engineering expert testimony should be prepared to be reported (quite possibly by opposing counsel) to the state board for engaging in the unlawful practice of engineering. While constitutional separation of power principles may not prevent an engineering expert unlicensed in the state in which he or she is providing services from testifying in court, those same principles may not prevent the state engineering licensure board from taking subsequent enforcement action against the expert for practicing engineering without a license. In addition, if it is determined that an individual practiced engineering without a license in violation of the licensure law, it may be difficult for the individual to obtain his or her professional fee, since the contract to provide services would constitute an illegal contract. If at all possible, you should pursue either becoming licensed in Indiana or obtaining a temporary permit to practice, if available.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
That's where the temporary permit to practice comes in - it is usually for a specified time or particular job. Washington has it.
As a sidelight ... Here is the exerpt for the PE exam requirements in Washington...
Professional engineer
Before getting a license, you must meet all of the following requirements:
Pass the EIT (Engineer In Training exam).
Pass the PE (Principles and Practices of Engineering exam).
Have 8 years of professional-level experience under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer. (Education in an ABET-accredited program may count for up to 4 years of this experience.)
With a PhD, the EIT can be waived with a certain formality of forms. Passing the PE - they could probably do it, but getting seated for it could be the bugaboo - the problem I see for a research professor obtaining a PE would be the 8 years work experience under another licensed PE. Probably is not going to happen as most research profs are independent of any supervision except for their grant satisfaction requirements. I think these guys have worked themselves into a hole from which licensure is very nearly impossible. Yet, many still give "expert opinions" using engineering principles from their discipline - practicing engineering to me. I have to be licensed to give expert engineering testimony in the State of Washington and have done so. Why not them? Is this an unopened can of worms here?
I described the situation to a legal rep from my state board today, and he said that licensure was definitely required for expert testimony in an engineering capacity in the State of Washington. Three of the critical issues are the use of a seal, purporting to be an engineer, and/or receiving compensation for the services rendered. There are others.
I'm going to dig deeper... It's starting to smell.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
Don't forget; if you have knowledge of un-licensed practice, you have an obligation to report.
My wife obtained the supervised experience for her LCSW (licensed clinical social worker) by paying an LCSW to look over her work. Since then, she has served in that capacity herself. Any reason why your professor could not follow that path?
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
stevenal:
I am aware of that ... perfectly. Just need to make sure of the facts here, and the legalities before I proceed. That's part of the reason for the post here - to get feedback. Thanks.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
True, but there is a fundamentsl difference between setting up the guidelines for an engineering profession per se with all sorts of disclaimers, and practicing engineering under those same guidelines for a client for a profit and all sorts of liability. I am not sure how the ACI is set up legally, but it could be a form of an engineering corporation, or several corporations, with the engineering sanction for its publications coming from that corporate engineering status, the professional engineering status of each individual committee member becoming a moot point. In essence, the committee members function under the umbrella of the ACI. Such would be the same for the ASCE, the ICBO, the IBC, Etc., Etc., Etc.
This individual is not in that boat of setting code related guidelines for others. He is not under the umbrella of a licensed engineering corporation either. He is, on his own, using long established principles of engineering, and some developed by his own research, to perform calculations and justify a "professional" opinion, that of an expert witness, which he is, relating to a particular event, writing reports to summarize his findings.
Still researching...
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
"An expert is an expert if accepted by the court as such."
Agreed. See the Q/A I posted above, noting the part about separation of powers. The court is doing nothing illegal in accepting the testimony, and neither are the lawyers or any of the court officers. The hired gun professor, if claiming his expertise is in engineering, is. It is not the duty of this particular court to decide if unlicensed practice occurred.
By the way, the author of the answer above has his expertise in engineering law.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
So we agree as to the discretion of the court to accept whatever testimony it deems appropriate.
But I still think that whether the professor is doing anything illegal or unethical would vary with the jurisdiction. And perhaps more importantly for the individual concerned would be the varying power of the state boards to discipline someone not licensed in that state. Some may have the power to prosecute anyone in state court, others to institute disciplinary procedures against licensed engineers only, etc. The professor may not care, if he is not subject to prosecution and does not wish to actually practice.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
If it goes far enough, I suspect it is the attorney general that actually has the power to prosecute after the board brings the case to him/her.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
California's enforcement falls into a few categories:
> claiming to be a licensed PE, or using one or more of the specifically limited titles for engineers
> stamping drawings with fake credentials
> stamping drawings with someone else's credentials
No sign of any other type of procedures
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RE: "Practice" of Engineering
One critical point in the report I have though, is the fact that there is a statement thayt no medical opinions arepresented, but no such statement regarding enginering. The implication is that the writer considers himself that he is performing an engineering service by omission here.
I am going to send in the coopy of the report I have to the Washington State Practice Committee, with an introductory letter, and see what they say. Could take a while (months), but I'll let yall know what they say. Probably won't be the same for your circumstance or state, but I guess we already came to that conclusion.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
http://www.asce.org/pdf/NSPEGuidelines.pdf
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
I should think that the courts should at least expect experts to be subject to peer review, which a PE would accomplish.
JHG
RE: "Practice" of Engineering
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RE: "Practice" of Engineering
In my home state, the practice of engineering includes the typical design functions as well as offering opinions or evaluation of buildings, engineered products or materials. This includes expert witness work when engineering opinions are required or given.
RE: "Practice" of Engineering