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emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors
4

emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

(OP)
We have an outside vendor that has started to do some work for us recently and we are running into problems. I know what the problem is but I am having a hard time explaining it to management.

Lets call my fellow employee E and the vendor V for the example. E makes a part and drawing and sends both files via email to the vendor in solidworks format.

V makes the part and sends it to us, all is good. 2 months later we need the part again for a different machine, E has also revised the part. He emails the vendor the SW drawing and part again.

V clicks the drawing from the email and prints and makes the part. The problem is that V did not know of a revision because when he opened it from his email it was showing the original part from 2 months ago.

In an attempt to show this to management, I demonstrated how when you open the drawing right from your email, SW creates a part in your temp folder. When it gets opened from a new email it still references that old part. And when it gets emailed back to E, the drawing references the part that we have on the network.

Long story short.. its a referencing mess. I have told them they can't keep emailing drawings/parts back and forth like that. They either need to only send a PDF or DXF.. or (most preferable) they need to be all be working from the same "basket".. our network.

I looked at pack and go and that doesn't seem to solve the problem either.

This sending drawings back and forth crap has caused multiple problems in the last month. Of course, you don't find out until it has cost you. The last one just created $21,500 in junk parts.

Can anyone advise me on how to word this to management to create an effective solution?  

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

Just showing them the $ cost should be enough. If it's not, there is no hope for them.

A simple way to overcome the problem is to add the revision number (or date) to the drawing being sent.

cheers

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

I never send featured models to a vendor.  Vendors get a neutral (parasolid/IGES/STEP) or deparameterized SW solid.  Drawings are sent via eDrawings or PDF.  File names are always tagged with a suffix indicating revision and date sent.

This way, I can keep a record of exactly what I ordered from a vendor.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

(OP)
Thanks for the replies.

I forgot to mention that we create parts that this vendor makes. And they also create (design) parts for us.. so its a two way street. If they create a part that we need in an assembly, we need that SW part file, and vice versa.

Therefor, sending just DXF's or PDF's, isn't a real solution.

Am I correct in assuming the only way to handle this properly is that us and the vendor are working from the same source, our network. Then there is only one controlled copy of the drawing thats referencing the one controlled part.

Geeze, the way they are doing it now.. I have found "PART A" in email temp folders, our network folder, and the vendors desktop. Who knows where whatever drawing they are opening is referencing to.  

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

I do as TheTick mentioned above, sending only "dumb" formats.  I also ALWAYS Zip what I send, since then the integrity of the file is better insured on arrival.  The Zip file is always labeled with the prefix of the date in this exact format:
081104-WidgetMaster-3000-Proto.zip

The vendor will never have a Temp-file mix-up like you mentioned with this file convention, and OUGHT to always remove the attachment from the email and put it into a directory similarly named:
Frustrated-Client\081104\081104-WidgetMaster-3000-Proto.zip

The date/directories are always in both alphabetical and chronological order in this case, making the newest revision always float to the top/bottom, depending on the order selected in Explorer.

 

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

I agree about the "dumb" formats. Send the drawings in PDF format with revisions.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

Prudence is cheaper than trust, and far more effective.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

Whichever format is used, an FTP site for transferring files would be better than email.

cheers

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

arcticcatmatt,

   This is the exact problem that used to occur with the old, paper drawings.  You revise your drawing, and the fabricator or assembler recovers his favorite copy from his desk drawer.

   Instruct your vendor to delete or archive any drawings and models you send them, once they have finished fabricating.  Systematically send them current copies of your files when you do a new order.

   When you do a revision, send the fabricator your revised stuff, and explicitly instruct them to delete or archive whatever it is they already have.

   The standard design change rule is that if you change form, fit or function, you must generate a new drawing and part number.  If you do this, your drawing and model will be new, and there will be no problems with the old one.

                            JHG
    

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

Being in R&D, I usually don't deal in production parts.  I expect our ECN system to keep vendors current on that stuff.

As for prototype parts, I usually include the file names on the purchase order (i.e. make parts per "MyBitchinInvention--Rev A 04Nov2008.IGS" and "MyBitchinInvention--Rev A 04Nov2008.PDF").

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

(OP)
Even if we tell the vendor to delete all previous copies of the files.. there are still parts that were created in their computer temp folder if they opened them straight from the email.

Not implying anything here by any means but I am instructing men in their 60's that are very new to solidworks.

I can tell them do this do that do this all I want. They will follow instructions one day and then do whatever they want the next.

When there are multiple copies of parts and drawings floating around, god knows what the drawings are referencing. I found one earlier in a test that was referencing a model that was in a temp folder that contained copies of all attachments opened via email.  

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

I'd make sure each file you send out is dated (as was recommended above) such that if they choose to screw up, the cost lands squarely on them.  You order parts from the files you send--what more can you do?  If they pay for it a few times, I'm betting someone over there will decide to pay better attention to their sloppy practices.

 

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

We have an FTP site we use for similar cases like this.  We and they cut and paste the model out of our transfer folder so no old files are in there.  Waiting 10 minutes for an upload is cheaper and quicker than correcting errors on finished units later on.

Flores

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

I third the use of an FTP site where your vendors can log-in to extract the correct files.  This is something that your IT department should be able to set-up quickly and cheaply.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

(OP)
We have used FTP to send them files/folders over 12 meg.

So say we put PART A and the drawing of PART A into the FTP folder. The vendor takes that and puts it on his desktop.

2 months later we revise the part and order it again. We put PART A and drawing of PART A back in the FTP folder. The vendor then puts them on his desktop (for example) and overwrites the current file. This is assuming he is going to put every file in the same folder every, if he doesn't, he could have two versions in different folders.

Weather they receive the parts via FTP or email.. the referencing problem can still happen if all the rules are not followed precisely.

We also had them email back a drawing and had a guy here open it, that drawing over wrote the model that we had on our network (as we all know thats possible).

 

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

That is why you must include the revision and or date in your transferred files.

As mentioned above, you should not be transferring the part model, unless it is needed for CAM ... and even then a dumb format would be safer.

If you are including the part model just for them to read the drawing ... don't. Use PDF or eDrawing or detached instead. eDrawing is my preference.

cheers

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

Ok, here's my take on this. Parts being made from any documentation via electronic or hardcopy should be sent through purchasing using a PO with current revision, which is usually required for R & D and Production hardware. This is usually the safest route, but still leaves room for possible error. So, I made up a form that document's everything about a electronic data that is attach along with the PO. The supplier will then receive the PO along with the electronic data sheet. This way I'm covered on my end as far as transferring data however it was sent. See attached Excel file and let me know your thoughts. I'll bet you'll like it. Also, when I fill this out and it's sent to the supplier, I put a copy in the PDM vault for safe keeping.

arcticcatmatt, "vendors sell hot dogs, suppliers make parts". That's an old saying that a buyer once told me. I got a kick out of it.

Very Best,

Colin Fitzpatrick (aka Macduff)
Mechanical Designer
Solidworks 2008 SP 4.0
Dell 490 XP Pro SP 2
Xeon CPU 3.00 GHz 3.00 GB of RAM
nVida Quadro FX 3450 512 MB
3D Connexion-SpaceExplorer

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

Colin,
Nice form! I like it.

The problem I had with my last company (you know which one) is purchasing loved to print & markup drawings to their liking thinking they are saving $$. (i.e. material, tol, & rev changes)
 

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

You got to be #$%&ing kidding me! I bet engineering got blame when things didn't go together too!

Colin Fitzpatrick (aka Macduff)
Mechanical Designer
Solidworks 2008 SP 4.0
Dell 490 XP Pro SP 2
Xeon CPU 3.00 GHz 3.00 GB of RAM
nVida Quadro FX 3450 512 MB
3D Connexion-SpaceExplorer

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

True.
I had been called into offices asking why parts were wrong.
When checking my drawing against the vendor drawing, one was marked up by purchasing.
Two of the idiots were fired.

I also had two managers fired for sending military drawings to China to save $$. No way was I going to get blame for that one!!

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

(OP)
Well meetings are over.. vendor (supplier) is leaving. 4 designers together in a room with 4 bosses aka management that have never used solidworks.

Talk about micromanaged.

Anyways, they will not allow them and us to work from the same "basket".. so.. daily we will be FTPing solidworks parts and drawings and assemblies back and forth.

So this is like two designers, working on the same stuff right next to each other, but they are each keeping thousands of parts with the same file names/revisions in two different baskets.

They don't want to listen to me even though I was brought in to advise.

Maybe when they make another 20,000 dollar mistake, they will listen to my advice and the advice I showed the boss from you others in this thread.

Oh.. and you guys will like this. The boss from the supplier told me he can out draw/design me in CADRA (2D) any day of the week. He said 2D is a million times faster than solidworks and solidworks is worth nothing but a pretty picture.

With that kind of outlook on the situation, its no wonder things keep happening the way they are. I had nothing more to say to them and left the meeting.  

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

"Yeah, yeah, yeah, Matt.  Whatever.  Look, the important thing is that you use the right cover sheets for your TPS reports."

I don't envy you.

By the way, perhaps you can ask the supplier to draw this in precious CADRA--in 2D:
http://www.industrialdesignhaus.com/internet/SpiralSpiralSpiral.SLDPRT
(If it takes a million sections to do it right, that's what I'd expect to see.)

 

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

arcticcatmatt,
I worked with an engineer that made a $10k mistake because he decided to make his own models that were different than mine. He had '0' tolerances and GD&T on his models/drawings.
The parts could not be fixed because they were all undersized.
He argued and fought with the machinists' for the mistake.
He was transferred to production eng and was not allowed to work with designs anymore.

The only way to fix the problem is to have 'all' models in one place and training for 'all' users, have managers sit in some of the meetings.
I did this every week for 6 months and it worked.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

(OP)
That spiral thing is funny.. that cracked me up.

I have a 4,500 part assembly on my screen right now utilizing multiple configurations. Only way to get that in CADRA is to print out 4,500 drawings, rip them in two pieces, and lay them on top of each other.

Its only a matter of time before this bites us in the butt again.

Thanks for the responses all!

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

there are two methods to manage this that I have experienced in similar situations.

One is, as mentioned, a shared database.  This is successful, requires input from IT and both maintenance and vigilance for continued success.

The other is how codevelopment projects are portioned.  Your remote vendor should be given tasks or work areas that are as self contained as possible.  Interface between their and your parts or assemblies can then be minimized and better controlled.  This sort of 'black-box' design can be managed very successfully with minimal data integration headaches.

In your instant case, I have two comments.  I think it is unwise to be emailing both part models and their drawings.  It seems you are doing so with no method of transferral log: sign offs, unique file names, dates, revisions, etc.  Continuing to do so requires some form of vigilance such as the form sample above.  Others are to include static copies, paper prints, of emailed contents, to record their revision.  Unique part and drawing names is other method to de-link parametric historical relationships.

My other comment is based on your vendor's attitude, assuming only from your quoted one liner: with this sort of old-boy attitude you must either take complete ownership of the electronic data transfer integrity, develop method and implementation and checks, or you must take a complete hands off approach, establish clear requirements and let them manage it successfuly or fail completely.

Whichever method you use I found on codevelopment projects that you must shout and scream to everyone exactly how you are sharing data.

In my own business I never email live drawings.  I frequently email models and pdf's of drawings, and I keep a separate folder of copies of files that were emailed.  And in the case of manufacturing, I never say use drawing/model/revision..., I always include the pdf and model with purchase order with explicit instruction to use them only.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

Not to be an ass or anything, Matt, but I sort of hope this bites your company in the can--and soon.  Seriously, this isn't a difficult problem to solve (particularly when everyone here has solved it already).  Failure to put in a little thought and consideration over absurd wishful thinking ought to lead to a little pain.

And we wonder why US businesses struggle?  (Sorry, just had quite the political conversation with a friend along these lines.)

 

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

"And we wonder why US businesses struggle?"

I 100% agree.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

Quote (pierdesign):

My other comment is based on your vendor's... old-boy attitude you must either take complete ownership... or you must take a complete hands off approach, establish clear requirements and let them manage it successfuly or fail completely.

I just thought I'd strip that down to bare essentials.  I would also add that perhaps it is time to look for new vendors.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

articcatmatt

I'm new to SW but I owned a machine shop for 12 years. When I didn't make the part a company ordered it became my part.

Machine shops that use CAD/CAM software (excluding mold shops) really only need 2D files. The 3D part is created when the CAD/CAM programmer creates tool paths.

Age is no excuse for not doing a job correctly, young or old. Go slow and try to understand what's going on at the vendors end. What I see is a problem that needs to be fixed. The group that comes up with the solution is more valuable than the group that figures out who created the problem.

Bruce
 

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

We work with a CM in China on everything. Our method of delivery is a forum. I believe this is even better than FTP, which is what we used to use. We send emails referencing the thread and post, but most know to just go to the forum. We make PCB's, issue artwork revisions, ECN BOM notices, mechanical prints, 3d Step files for molding, and testing docs all through the forum. Directions are indicated in the post.

All here know how valueable a forum can be. If you start working with us, we give you an account on the forum. It also offers complete transparency to the entire design cycle, so management can get on, see whats going on, and have something to talk about in their meetings.

rfus   

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

"Machine shops that use CAD/CAM software (excluding mold shops) really only need 2D files. The 3D part is created when the CAD/CAM programmer creates tool paths."

Once you start using the 3D files, you'll wonder why you didn't use them before.
IMO, using 2D for CAM takes more time...less efficient.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

ctoper

All my CAM programming was done in 2-1/2 axis (Gibbs and Mastercam). I was a production shop. Runs were between 200 and 1000 pcs. Tool paths used to important.

Can you give me an idea of how 3d is more efficient? Use something simple like creating a pocket with a boss in the middle. The top of the boss being 1/2 the depth of the pocket. Not to much detail just a starting point.

Thanks
Bruce
 

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

It's manual vs auto efficiency.
Importing a 3D model takes little effort other than selecting tools from libraries and other data. The data can be saved and used for a similar part or if the part changes. 2D you need to manually input the data.

To me it's the difference between pencil dwgs vs CAD dwgs.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

ctopher

When you say manually input data, do you mean the depth of cut (Z)?

Using 3d would you select a pocket (1" deep) and then  select a  step down distance in Z (.248 leaving .008 on the floor for clean-up)?

Bruce

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

Bojyna, I agree with you on very simple 2 ½ machining but even then, imagine you have say 20 holes all of different depth is it easier to work to a 3D model or cut 20 sections? Also some kind of hole recognition can be very useful, I am not sure if solidworks does this but certainly this is something you lose with a dumb solid.

Once you get into any really 3D work, not just moulds it is the only way to go, imagine a cylinder block on a car.

Take a look at this link, yes I am sure it could be done with a series of set ups and jigs but how much slower would it be?

Solid models preferably in native formats are the only way to go for any real 3D parts, sorry this is going off topic somewhat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-O3P2mtFxI

 

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

If you can't force them to update their models, can you at least compel them to send you their models to check?

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

That's the vendors fault, not yours.  You are trying to hard to fix your vendors problems.  Notify him of the issue.  If he doesn't correct it but insists on charging you anyway, kill the contract and sue.  If not, move on to another vendor if you can.  I work with plenty in several different discipines and only rarely encounter this issue.

Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

I would consider instituting a practice where they have to sign/return a copy of the drawing referenced by any purchase order. This doesn't fix the problem but it should provide a gate item for catching revision problems.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

ajack1 / ctopher

I understand now, after viewing the 2 videos.

I was so busy programming CNC machines I really didn't take the time or effort to seek out new programming methods. With this new info I am sure that 3D is much faster on the programming side. Now I need to learn how to make the most of 3D models.

The Teksoft demo was very informative.

Many thanks
Bruce
 

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

Great!
Thanks!
I hope it works for you. You will find a lot of time and $$ savings using the 3D.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

arcticcatmatt,

This isn't your problem.  This is your vendor's problem.  It's great that you're taking responsibility for it, but you're shielding those that really need to take the fall.  Make them eat a couple more $20k orders (you made them eat the first one...right?) and I'll bet they get smarter faster.

bojyna's got the right idea.

-b

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

I agree--this is all documented in writing through emails--ostensibly saved as records of transactions.  If you sent the correct files and your vendor used incorrect files, I don't see how you're liable.

 

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.

RE: emailing drawings and parts back and forth to vendors

I don't think we send anyone a SolidWorks drawing. For the drawing we deal strictly with PDFs. We do deal with all sorts of versions of the solids. Translations are one of my biggest headaches. We handle many sensitive military projects requiring secure information transfers. One method they use is called ACE. I can't say too much about it as I don't have access and the project engineer has to be the go between. I used Cadra for years before SolidWorks. Yes you can pop out some simple things fast like layout sketches. You can also make fictional drawings since the views don't have to be real. There is no way that any part of any complexity can be detailed with multiple views, section and details as fast in Cadra as SW, let alone updated as fast if parts or assemblies change.
My advice is don't give them the SW drawing. If they must have them to make their own creations then send the model first without the drawing. Do you know what kind of file system they use? They should make a practice of opening a new folder, placing the new model in it, then placing the new drawing in it, and only after that open the drawing. From there they can be responsible for tracking versioning.

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