Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
(OP)
We had a big meeting at work today and I found out that they are going to require mandatory Saturday shifts for the engineers working on my program. The company estimates that the mandatory Saturdays will last for 4 months, though it could easily last longer than that.
I'm happy about it. I work at a place that pays overtime (1.2 times straight time) so I'm not working for free. I anticipated this coming for a while so it's not a surprise.
A lot of people are upset about it, though, since they already make plenty of money and don't really care for overtime.
What would you think in my situation? I'm curious, and if you're willing, please put your age or number of years experience to compare.
(By the way, I'm really not wondering what I should feel. My real question is what is your opinion.)
I'm happy about it. I work at a place that pays overtime (1.2 times straight time) so I'm not working for free. I anticipated this coming for a while so it's not a surprise.
A lot of people are upset about it, though, since they already make plenty of money and don't really care for overtime.
What would you think in my situation? I'm curious, and if you're willing, please put your age or number of years experience to compare.
(By the way, I'm really not wondering what I should feel. My real question is what is your opinion.)





RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
Given that we almost certainly have lay offs in our futre I'd probably rather be in your boat.
That said, I value my weekends more than most because I work away from home in the week so having to work Saturdays would suck.
If I just had to do equivalent hours but in my normal 4 day work week, or even just working Friday extra, then I actually wouldn't mind right now. The money would be handy, and frankly I don't have much else going on during the evenings when I'm out of town. Plus I probably do a little more than 40 most weeks so actually getting payed for it wouldn't be so bad.
If I worked in town I'd live with it, though if it lasted too long it may get old.
I've known people that on defense jobs back in I believe the 80's had compulsary 60 hour weeks for months on end. That would be a bit much for me.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
I'm salary and sometimes jobs require to work on Saturday.
My last company also made Sat overtime required for 4 months. I always had my work finished ahead of schedule and didn't need overtime.
I refused to work it because of 8 hrs work, I was only paid 4 hours.
The Co. president was mad and called me into his office. I told him there was no point because I commuted 37 miles, finished ahead a schedule, and had no work to do on Sat.
I was the only one exempt.
If you like to work overtime and it helps to get your project finished, it could look good to mgmt.
If you do it just for the money and not get much accomplished, it may hurt you and the company in the long run.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
When I was in my mid 20's, a day in the office on a Saturday was a good thing. As well as being productive (no competition for equipment or facilities), I could count the hours requires to pay for ... a new tyre for my bike, a boat ticket to the Isle, etc. Almost like working for luxuries.
- Steve
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
I think it depends on your marital status and whether you have kids.
If single and/or no kids, I think short term OT on weekends would be money in the bank. Grab it while you can.
If your normal shift is 8hr/day, then you are only talking 48 hours in a week. In my present situation, it is expected, but not required to work at least 45 hours/week. This last year, due to workload and stuff, I have averaged probably 50+ hours per week - sometimes with evenings, nights, and weekends. But then I am single and don't have custody of my kids.
Even with wife and/or kids, if it was short term, I think it would be ok. But if short term became long term or permanent, then things would have to be re-evaluated. I know of many people who worked a lot of hours and lost time with family. I don't work late on the days I have my girls. Not worth it in my opinion.
As stated previously, having overtime - even if mandatory - in the current economic climate could be a good thing.
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
AND WE STILL COMPLAINED!
Now at mid fifties, working as a consultant no benefits, no time off, no vacation, no sick time...
I guess I am getting paid back !!
JIM
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
If an employer pays for O/T, it becomes effectively MANDATORY when asked for- within reason. Got plane tickets and a hotel booked for a holiday? Sure, you get a pass. But otherwise, you'd better show up!
If an employer doesn't pay for O/T, they can ask, but you should feel free to say no.
Four months of steady Saturdays? Sounds like the firm needs to HIRE some folks! No way I'd put up with that!
O/T pay should include a premium above the regular wage to compensate for the tax costs and the inconvenience, or it's hardly fair. The usual rate is 1.5x, not 1.2x.
Compelling uncompensated overtime from employees is unethical. No engineer should put up with it. As to how it's compensated, via time in lieu (which you are permitted to either TAKE or be paid for later), a meaningful bonus/profit sharing arrangement, shares/options or something else of MONETARY value, that's between you and your employer.
I've been at my most recent company for 12 years and I've worked plenty of O/T- because it was needed- and have been richly compensated for it. I've even slept at my desk a few nights. But aside from getting on a plane, or on a remote site somewhere, I've NEVER worked a Saturday or a Sunday- not even at home. Period. If they ask, I say it's for "religious reasons". End of discussion! Everybody's got to draw the line somewhere, and having a couple days off to de-stress and spend with my family is my bottom line.
If you're working uncompensated O/T to brown-nose your boss, or because you feel so indispensible that the place will fall down like a house of cards around your head unless you do, I'd suggest you get a life. Working some O/T for free to learn something or to meet a deadline is one thing, but consistently donating large amounts of YOUR time to a profitable company is idiotic. It's preventing the hiring of others who could be helping you. No amount of self-sacrifice you make on behalf of your firm will be refused. Not necessarily acknowledged, or even noticed, but it won't be refused...Never forget that!
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
I've read that a lot of salaried (i.e., exempt) employees don't get overtime at all, so it seems that 1.2X is at least getting paid for the OT.
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
I had the good fortune to be a young, single engineer working for a company that paid 1.5x for OT- and had a contract which would bear the cost. I was a very happy kid! Didn't last, though. STILL never worked a weekend...
Don't get paid for it at all, in any way? Don't WORK it!
Again, there's more than one way to compensate for O/T. Ways that are fair to both employee and employer.
Some people confuse being on salary with being a sucker, or they confuse being a "professional" with being a wage-slave. A professional doesn't de-value their profession's services by giving them away absolutely for free!
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_overtime.htm
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
I think the pay and the limited amount of time you will have to work on Saturdays makes it far more tolerable. I don't get paid for OT, not that I've been asked to work any lately.
Things here are too slow for my taste and I worry every single day if this is the day I am let go. I'd take the Saturday work at 1.2x regular rate right now, although I'd be tempted to make a later start time so I could go to my regular Sat cardio class and followup gossip session with my girlfriends. THAT I just couldn't give up!
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
From it being expected for free, time in lieu, time in lieu at 1.5X, straight pay, 1.25X and 1.5X.
I also worked some late in 2002 where they didn't want to approve overtime but gave me a big old end of year bonus that was equivalent of about 1.5X.
I've only worked weekends maybe 5 (not including some business travel) times and at least one of those was so I could meet deadline and still leave early on a Friday.
All the big talk of not putting up with mandatory overtime is great if you really are so in demand that you can afford to tell your employer to go stick it and walk into another position. However, for some of us the economic reality is the we need to be a bit more cautious, maybe suck it up a bit here and there.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
ctopher,
I read the link and I have to say that as an exempt employee (licensed professional working in a learned or artistic profession), I am very proud to be in the same column as 'sheephearder'.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" - Will Rogers (1879-1935) ***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
I have a husband and two kids. There's no real way that would work for my family right now.
Of course, being unemployed would be worse...
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
A 'sheephearder' is good.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
Star for this one!
"Finally had to schedule a "leave w/o pay" day (to new to the company to have earned vacation yet) to get down to the DMV and get my drivers liscense for the new state I was in."
This is what pisses me off most about uncompensated overtime. If things are busy my boss can demand that I work overtime, but say if it is a nice Friday afternoon and things are slow, I can't just cut out after lunch and only report 36 hours on my time sheet.
I keep overtime to the bare minimum. It is rare for me to work more than 40hrs a week.
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
That is less than my standard rate.
Guess how much overtime (as opposed to flex time) I have worked in the last 8 years!
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
- Steve
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
Bart Brejcha Chicago
DESIGN-ENGINE|EDUCATION
http://www.proetools.com
surfacing and Pro/CABLE training
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
OT for 4 months is not that bad...it could be worse. Where I am at there are those of us who work what is required to get the project out and there are those who refuse to work o/t. Our company has not demanded that we all work o/t, yet, but life is harder because of those who don't work o/t. There's only been two months (February and March) where I've had my weekends free since I started in 2007. And, yes my family complains, but I am not a PE yet, so my options are limited.
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
Are you really sure you have no options? What do the people who are not doing the O/T know that you don't?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
I get compensated for O/T (1.0x). However, what I am saying is that when a person asks for help and the reply is a "that's not my client, so I am not concerned about that project." The difficulty for meeting a deadline gets harder. As for options, I have several years of field experience in project management, but want PE status, before I go back into the field.
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
On the other hand I have worked in rank organizations where it was an obligation to come in on Sat w/o OT pay. It turned out to be coffee and donuts and BS. Waste of time. It's nice to have a job, but keep the resumes circulating for better companies.
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
The thing i hate about weekend work is that it kind of feels like detention in that if you've struggled all week to get things done in a timely manner and still have to come in on the weekend it's painful.
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
There's a sense of satisfaction when you realise that you are being paid to go to the toilet, or to eat your lunch. Once I even worked out how much I'd earned to go out and buy lunch - more than what I'd spent.
- Steve
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
Idea is that when you went off to go #2 you set the timer going and when you got back it had calculated how much the company had paid you to take a dump.
The figures were especially fun for the short time I was paid overtime.
There's a lot of big talk above about "not taking it" but I wonder what that translates to in reality and if it varies on circumstances. It's easy to be hardline on a relatively anonymous web site, is it that easy in the real world where you have bills to pay, job market is maybe sluggish and there are real consequences?
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
Early in my career I thought I had little to offer other than my willingness to work hard. I learned the hard way. I gave away a great many hours which ultimately were of no benefit to me. Nobody was giving me any shares for my extra effort, much less any extra pay- and there was no profit sharing (nor any profit TO share). Even if I HAD managed to rescue the place from its eventual fate, OTHERS would have benefitted monetarily from it- not me.
When I got put onto work-share (four day weeks) for the first time, it was like a blindfold had been removed from my eyes. My work week dropped from 60-70 hrs over five days to 32 over four- and my pay dropped by only 10% (due to a government work-share program). Even a dumb kid knew that you don't work unpaid O/T when the company's dropped you to four day weeks- And I had a whole day off every week to look for another job!
Since then I have not worked any significant time which wasn't recognized monetarily in some way- aside from when volunteering for non-profit organizations etc. I'm happy to work extra for an ownership stake, profit sharing, or time off that I am actually free to take. But I'll never again work absolutely for free.
And neither will the engineers who work for me.
The workaholics are really a tough one though. How do you deal with people who work for free because they're sick, have no life, and try to fill in the void in their lives with work? Even for employers trying to do the right thing, the workaholics represent a real puzzle. One hint though: NEVER work for one! You'll regret it...
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
Now, overtime can be very useful but there is a big BUT in there.
The question is if it is declared in your contract that the company can do this. In some countries this would be regarded as a change of contractual terms, can be regarded, paradoxically, as a constructive dismissal just as if they decided to move the factory 10 miles down the road, move you from day shift to night shift and so on.
If there is a situation where extra hours are required then I would have hoped for a management that approaches its workforce in better spirit than simply to announce mandatory overtime at 1.2 x normal and especially for Saturdays.
As others have said, 1.5 times salary is more usual and more still for unsociable hours.
If I were the employer and there was reasonable moral then I'd make some attractive terms, declare an amount of work to be done and ask for applicants on a first come first served basis.
Since many of us engineers already may work extra hours (unpaid) during the week, one wonders whether those engineers who do work the extra hours and who are now compelled to come in on Saturdays will adopt a more clock watching attitude to the rest of the week. I mean, why work evenings in the week for free when you are not compelled to when by working at the weekend you are going to earn extra.
You know, dependent on the mood, there are all sorts of ways to fix their (management) wagon if you don't like their attitude.
By the way, any situation like this where there is no legal obligation to comply is an opportunity to NEGOTIATE.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
My company is one of those "be thankful we are letting you work here" places.
I do not get paid overtime. We work until the job is done. 8 to 5 no matter if we have work to do or not. and 24/7 if you can't meet deadlines.
I have a problem with it if the reason I can't get stuff done is more of an organizational issue. Alot of our engineers work 12 hour days. They never seem to catch up. And if it looks like a job might be winding down they give them more work. Why hire more employees when you just work your engineers to death. To be honest though I think some of them like it.
That's why I like companies that pay overtime. They don't like to pay it ;)
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
"And neither will the engineers who work for me."
Engineers work for the company not you so you might want to be careful with how you choose your words.
Tunalover
RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
The average manager DOES have control over whether or not they compell uncompensated overtime from their staff, though. And it's their ethical obligation NOT to do so. Ask, sure! Demand, or compell as a condition of continued employment- no way. Demanding uncompensated overtime from your underlings so you can get a bigger performance bonus yourself is pretty sleazy, don't you think?
Fortunately at present, I'm not just a manager- I do have some ownership, and a position which gives me a say in regard to how the engineers are compensated. The existing system pre-dated my joining, and the wonderful things this system does for the company in terms of individual and group performance and staff/skill retention is one of the key reasons I chose to join.
If the other owners decided tomorrow to cancel the way we compensate for O/T and performance, instead choosing to extort uncompensated overtime from our professional staff for greater personal gain, I'd be out the next day. They'd be slaying the goose that lays the golden eggs. You're of course right that I might not be so lucky at my next firm!