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Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?
6

Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

(OP)
We had a big meeting at work today and I found out that they are going to require mandatory Saturday shifts for the engineers working on my program. The company estimates that the mandatory Saturdays will last for 4 months, though it could easily last longer than that.

I'm happy about it. I work at a place that pays overtime (1.2 times straight time) so I'm not working for free. I anticipated this coming for a while so it's not a surprise.

A lot of people are upset about it, though, since they already make plenty of money and don't really care for overtime.

What would you think in my situation? I'm curious, and if you're willing, please put your age or number of years experience to compare.

(By the way, I'm really not wondering what I should feel. My real question is what is your opinion.)

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Well, there's the "you should be grateful to have a job" perspective in this current climate.

Given that we almost certainly have lay offs in our futre I'd probably rather be in your boat.

That said, I value my weekends more than most because I work away from home in the week so having to work Saturdays would suck.

If I just had to do equivalent hours but in my normal 4 day work week, or even just working Friday extra, then I actually wouldn't mind right now.  The money would be handy, and frankly I don't have much else going on during the evenings when I'm out of town.  Plus I probably do a little more than 40 most weeks so actually getting payed for it wouldn't be so bad.

If I worked in town I'd live with it, though if it lasted too long it may get old.

I've known people that on defense jobs back in I believe the 80's had compulsary 60 hour weeks for months on end.  That would be a bit much for me.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

It is entirely up to you.
I'm salary and sometimes jobs require to work on Saturday.

My last company also made Sat overtime required for 4 months. I always had my work finished ahead of schedule and didn't need overtime.
I refused to work it because of 8 hrs work, I was only paid 4 hours.
The Co. president was mad and called me into his office. I told him there was no point because I commuted 37 miles, finished ahead a schedule, and had no work to do on Sat.
I was the only one exempt.

If you like to work overtime and it helps to get your project finished, it could look good to mgmt.
If you do it just for the money and not get much accomplished, it may hurt you and the company in the long run.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

I do what is required to get the project done; I don't do it for free mind you I get OT pay, also if I finished my work I would find something to do to help the project get done on time.  I have worked for a month straight on a project, the last week I got home at 1 left for work at 5 everyday, that last week was not fun, but the project got done and everyone was happy.  

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

It depends on your age and circumstances.

When I was in my mid 20's, a day in the office on a Saturday  was a good thing.  As well as being productive (no competition for equipment or facilities), I could count the hours requires to pay for ... a new tyre for my bike, a boat ticket to the Isle, etc.  Almost like working for luxuries.

 

- Steve

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

I am in my early forties and have about 8 years in my current career choice.

I think it depends on your marital status and whether you have kids.

If single and/or no kids, I think short term OT on weekends would be money in the bank.  Grab it while you can.

If your normal shift is 8hr/day, then you are only talking 48 hours in a week.  In my present situation, it is expected, but not required to work at least 45 hours/week.  This last year, due to workload and stuff, I have averaged probably 50+ hours per week - sometimes with evenings, nights, and weekends.  But then I am single and don't have custody of my kids.

Even with wife and/or kids, if it was short term, I think it would be ok.  But if short term became long term or permanent, then things would have to be re-evaluated.  I know of many people who worked a lot of hours and lost time with family.  I don't work late on the days I have my girls.  Not worth it in my opinion.

As stated previously, having overtime - even if mandatory - in the current economic climate could be a good thing.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

2
When I started my career, I worked in the field for a large eastern PA steel company (now gone). One year out of college and in this job, fantastic benefits (all paid), 6 weeks vacation  (could sell 2 weeks back for cash), paid time and one half for Saturday work (always available).
AND WE STILL COMPLAINED!
Now at mid fifties, working as a consultant no benefits, no time off, no vacation, no sick time...
I guess I am getting paid back !!
JIM
 

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

2
Here's the way I look at it:

If an employer pays for O/T, it becomes effectively MANDATORY when asked for- within reason.  Got plane tickets and a hotel booked for a holiday?  Sure, you get a pass.  But otherwise, you'd better show up!

If an employer doesn't pay for O/T, they can ask, but you should feel free to say no.

Four months of steady Saturdays?  Sounds like the firm needs to HIRE some folks!  No way I'd put up with that!

O/T pay should include a premium above the regular wage to compensate for the tax costs and the inconvenience, or it's hardly fair.  The usual rate is 1.5x, not 1.2x.

Compelling uncompensated overtime from employees is unethical.  No engineer should put up with it.  As to how it's compensated, via time in lieu (which you are permitted to either TAKE or be paid for later), a meaningful bonus/profit sharing arrangement, shares/options or something else of MONETARY value, that's between you and your employer.

I've been at my most recent company for 12 years and I've worked plenty of O/T- because it was needed- and have been richly compensated for it.  I've even slept at my desk a few nights.  But aside from getting on a plane, or on a remote site somewhere, I've NEVER worked a Saturday or a Sunday- not even at home.  Period.   If they ask, I say it's for "religious reasons".  End of discussion!  Everybody's got to draw the line somewhere, and having a couple days off to de-stress and spend with my family is my bottom line.

If you're working uncompensated O/T to brown-nose your boss, or because you feel so indispensible that the place will fall down like a house of cards around your head unless you do, I'd suggest you get a life.  Working some O/T for free to learn something or to meet a deadline is one thing, but consistently donating large amounts of YOUR time to a profitable company is idiotic.  It's preventing the hiring of others who could be helping you.  No amount of self-sacrifice you make on behalf of your firm will be refused.  Not necessarily acknowledged, or even noticed, but it won't be refused...Never forget that!   

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

1.5 times salary is the norm.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

1.2 times straight time?  Sounds like you are getting shafted. OT here starts at 1.5 times.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

(OP)
How many exempt engineers here get 1.5x for overtime? I'm well aware that non-exempt (i.e., hourly) employees earn 1.5X. But what about engineers?

I've read that a lot of salaried (i.e., exempt) employees don't get overtime at all, so it seems that 1.2X is at least getting paid for the OT.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

I'd be happy to get straight time for anything over 40!

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Some of us "employees" ARE "engineers". :) I work at a union shop and we still get paid for the hours we work where 50 hrs/wk is the norm, not the exception.
 

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Isn't there some arcane government definition of overtime for certain salaried workers? It seems like a few years ago they changed the rules, making some folks "supervisory" with a pen stroke, even if they have no authority or responsibility's in the classic "supervisory sense" ? And it seems like they drew the line at 50 hrs/week for these newly anointed "supervisory personnel" Therefore, up to 50 hrs a week, no compensation. Correct me, anyone? I'm not sure if it got the engineering staff, but it did affect people like Shop supervisors or foremen,'Charge nurses' on the hospital floor, etc. Of course, the businesses affected could still pay overtime if they choose, but if they're "belt-tightening", they had this ruling to fall back on.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Some companies pay OT only to their junior engineers.  Some pay at 1.5x, some at 1x.  Some not at all.

I had the good fortune to be a young, single engineer working for a company that paid 1.5x for OT- and had a contract which would bear the cost.  I was a very happy kid!  Didn't last, though.  STILL never worked a weekend...

Don't get paid for it at all, in any way?  Don't WORK it!

Again, there's more than one way to compensate for O/T.  Ways that are fair to both employee and employer.

Some people confuse being on salary with being a sucker, or they confuse being a "professional" with being a wage-slave.  A professional doesn't de-value their profession's services by giving them away absolutely for free!

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

IF I got compensated for the OT (x1.5 or time off, etc) AND the project really needed the extra effort, I would not mind working those Saturdays.  You can be sure that I would find out the reasons the project fell behind or who so inadequately planned it to require me to work those Saturdays, just so I wouldn't have to do it again.  I hate working weekends because I have a life outside work.  When I am asked to do so, I ask if it is for moral support 'cause my work is planned on a 40hr work-week and a given due date.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?


I think the pay and the limited amount of time you will have to work on Saturdays makes it far more tolerable.  I don't get paid for OT, not that I've been asked to work any lately.  

Things here are too slow for my taste and I worry every single day if this is the day I am let go.  I'd take the Saturday work at 1.2x regular rate right now, although I'd be tempted to make a later start time so I could go to my regular Sat cardio class and followup gossip session with my girlfriends.  THAT I just couldn't give up!

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

MadMango, Just make sure that when you go seeking the folks that caused the backlog, it is something that falls into your area of responsibility and you can proactively make corrections. Too much digging into other's areas & pionting fingers will only cause you grief, especially when your primary reason is that you "plan" your life around "YOUR NEEDS: emphasis on "your". This is guaranteed to get you a note in the margin of someones "book of squeaky wheels" Sometimes such wheels get greased, sometimes the get replaced.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

I've seen a range on 'overtime for engineers'.

From it being expected for free, time in lieu, time in lieu at 1.5X, straight pay, 1.25X and 1.5X.

I also worked some late in 2002 where they didn't want to approve overtime but gave me a big old end of year bonus that was equivalent of about 1.5X.

I've only worked weekends maybe 5 (not including some business travel) times and at least one of those was so I could meet deadline and still leave early on a Friday.

All the big talk of not putting up with mandatory overtime is great if you really are so in demand that you can afford to tell your employer to go stick it and walk into another position.  However, for some of us the economic reality is the we need to be a bit more cautious, maybe suck it up a bit here and there.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

When I was a fresh grad, my first job was working a NASA contract, and (in the wake of Challenger) we were on mandatory 54-hr. weeks (5x10 and 4 on Saturday).  It got old very quickly, as there was actually little for us to do (our particular device performed very well in flight, and NASA heads did not want to change things for fear of fixing what ain't broke), and -- not yet having a wife -- things like laundry, food shopping, bill paying, car maintenance, etc. etc. still had to get done in the fairly small amount of evening/weekend time left over (note that the schedule nicely overlaps banking hours, DMV hours, etc. etc.).  Finally had to schedule a "leave w/o pay" day (to new to the company to have earned vacation yet) to get down to the DMV and get my drivers liscense for the new state I was in.  Which put me into another state altogether.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?


ctopher,

I read the link and I have to say that as an exempt employee (licensed professional working in a learned or artistic profession), I am very proud to be in the same column as 'sheephearder'.  

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Be sure to check your OT tax bracket before you start smiling.  Whenever I worked OT in the States, the higher tax bracket pushed all of it into the withholding column.  Wound up working for it for far too few bucks/hr to make it worth the effort.

"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" - Will Rogers (1879-1935) ***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

BigInch - while it's probably worse in the US as you have a lot more tax brackets people used to say the same in the UK.  However, while a much bigger percentage of it did go to the govt I still got a fair chunk out of it.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

If you're young, not married, and no kids, do whatever you want.

I have a husband and two kids.  There's no real way that would work for my family right now.

Of course, being unemployed would be worse...

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

"Working some O/T for free to learn something or to meet a deadline is one thing, but consistently donating large amounts of YOUR time to a profitable company is idiotic.  It's preventing the hiring of others who could be helping you.  No amount of self-sacrifice you make on behalf of your firm will be refused.  Not necessarily acknowledged, or even noticed, but it won't be refused...Never forget that! "

Star for this one!


"Finally had to schedule a "leave w/o pay" day (to new to the company to have earned vacation yet) to get down to the DMV and get my drivers liscense for the new state I was in."

This is what pisses me off most about uncompensated overtime.   If things are busy my boss can demand that I work overtime, but say if it is a nice Friday afternoon and things are slow, I can't just cut out after lunch and only report 36 hours on my time sheet.  

I keep overtime to the bare minimum.  It is rare for me to work more than 40hrs a week.

  

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

My overtime rate is 1.5x the median pay for my grade.

That is less than my standard rate.

Guess how much overtime (as opposed to flex time) I have worked in the last 8 years!

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

I can guess.  About the same as me!  We had our grades "reorganised" so that I can no longer be paid for overtime.  They'll nick flex time next.  Then I'll travel.

- Steve

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

as a contractor of the past I would never work anywhere without overtime and overtime pay.   

Bart Brejcha    Chicago
DESIGN-ENGINE|EDUCATION
http://www.proetools.com
surfacing and Pro/CABLE training
 

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Cedar,
OT for 4 months is not that bad...it could be worse. Where I am at there are those of us who work what is required to get the project out and there are those who refuse to work o/t.  Our company has not demanded that we all work o/t, yet, but life is harder because of those who don't work o/t.  There's only been two months (February and March) where I've had my weekends free since I started in 2007. And, yes my family complains, but I am not a PE yet, so my options are limited.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

CCB1:  what you're saying is that some people elect not to work the uncompensated O/T, whereas you do because you feel you have "no options".  And you blame your situation to some degree on those who are not doing the O/T.

Are you really sure you have no options?  What do the people who are not doing the O/T know that you don't?

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Moltenmetal,
I get compensated for O/T (1.0x). However, what I am saying is that when a person asks for help and the reply is a "that's not my client, so I am not concerned about that project." The difficulty for meeting a deadline gets harder.  As for options, I have several years of field experience in project management, but want PE status, before I go back into the field.  

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Here at my plant in OH it is 1.0X for overtime on any day, unless you are supervising hourly (union) personnel or if it falls on a holiday, then it becomes 1.5X.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

I am a utilities engineer.  I get 1.0 for overtime plus some kind of shift differential, which is like an extra $1/hour on Sundays, which is nothing considering my base pay is $30/hour.  My normal work week is 8 hours per day but in certain cases we are expected to work up to two hours of casual overtime that is not compensated.  The most overtime I work is during outages that last several weeks.  I will work 6 to 7 days per week, 10 to 16 hours per day.  Usually 12 hours per day.  I like the extra money but 1.0x for overtime, not having a life, and the heavy taxes make the extra money insignificant.   

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

I have worked Sat OT for straight time, and it helped pay many bills. On top of that, we worked a regular 10 hr day, which totaled 14 extra OT hrs. The obligation is not to appear to be wasting time. This is the time to run repeated iterations, consolidate your accummulated knowledge, and organize your files.

On the other hand I have worked in rank organizations where it was an obligation to come in on Sat w/o OT pay. It turned out to be coffee and donuts and BS. Waste of time. It's nice to have a job, but keep the resumes circulating for better companies.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Is it not a law that you be paid extra for overtime??  Depends on the state??  I hear of a lot of people not getting paid for overtime.

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Don't get paid for overtime here either and have rarely received it in any job. Really helps when you do get it because it at least pays for the gas and food for that day!

The thing i hate about weekend work is that it kind of feels like detention in that if you've struggled all week to get things done in a timely manner and still have to come in on the weekend it's painful.
 

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Overtime has its amusing side too.  When I did the odd bit here and there, I saw it as "extra", something not factored into my cost of living.

There's a sense of satisfaction when you realise that you are being paid to go to the toilet, or to eat your lunch.  Once I even worked out how much I'd earned to go out and buy lunch - more than what I'd spent.

- Steve

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Someone sent me a calculator software a long time back.  You entered into it your pay, vacation and other relevant stuff.

Idea is that when you went off to go #2 you set the timer going and when you got back it had calculated how much the company had paid you to take a dump.

The figures were especially fun for the short time I was paid overtime.

There's a lot of big talk above about "not taking it" but I wonder what that translates to in reality and if it varies on circumstances.  It's easy to be hardline on a relatively anonymous web site, is it that easy in the real world where you have bills to pay, job market is maybe sluggish and there are real consequences?

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

KENAT:  sure, it varies with circumstances.  It also varies with maturity and experience.  

Early in my career I thought I had little to offer other than my willingness to work hard.  I learned the hard way.  I gave away a great many hours which ultimately were of no benefit to me.  Nobody was giving me any shares for my extra effort, much less any extra pay- and there was no profit sharing (nor any profit TO share).  Even if I HAD managed to rescue the place from its eventual fate, OTHERS would have benefitted monetarily from it- not me.

When I got put onto work-share (four day weeks) for the first time, it was like a blindfold had been removed from my eyes.  My work week dropped from 60-70 hrs over five days to 32 over four- and my pay dropped by only 10% (due to a government work-share program).  Even a dumb kid knew that you don't work unpaid O/T when the company's dropped you to four day weeks- And I had a whole day off every week to look for another job!  

Since then I have not worked any significant time which wasn't recognized monetarily in some way- aside from when volunteering for non-profit organizations etc.  I'm happy to work extra for an ownership stake, profit sharing, or time off that I am actually free to take.  But I'll never again work absolutely for free.

And neither will the engineers who work for me.

The workaholics are really a tough one though.  How do you deal with people who work for free because they're sick, have no life, and try to fill in the void in their lives with work?  Even for employers trying to do the right thing, the workaholics represent a real puzzle.  One hint though:  NEVER work for one!  You'll regret it...   

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

When I worked on the Space Shuttle program, mandatory overtime was initiated by NASA. Most of my fellow engineers quite liked the OT because they knew that layoffs could be just around the corner. I, however, was not happy with the OT because for the first 2 mos I had nothing to do on those Saturdays (I could complete the work in < 40 hrs) and it put a damper on my time for skiing.  After that, I could not complain because OT was required to complete my work and I was being compensated for it. Having said that, I left the aerospace industry about 2-mos later for more money and more freedom.   

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Big Inch has a very good point about tax.

Now, overtime can be very useful but there is a big BUT in there.
The question is if it is declared in your contract that the company can do this. In some countries this would be regarded as a change of contractual terms, can be regarded, paradoxically, as a constructive dismissal just as if they decided to move the factory 10 miles down the road, move you from day shift to night shift and so on.

If there is a situation where extra hours are required then I would have hoped for a management that approaches its workforce in better spirit than simply to announce mandatory overtime at 1.2 x normal and especially for Saturdays.
As others have said, 1.5 times salary is more usual and more still for unsociable hours.

If I were the employer and there was reasonable moral then I'd make some attractive terms, declare an amount of work to be done and ask for applicants on a first come first served basis.
Since many of us engineers already may work extra hours (unpaid) during the week, one wonders whether those engineers who do work the extra hours and who are now compelled to come in on Saturdays will adopt a more clock watching attitude to the rest of the week. I mean, why work evenings in the week for free when you are not compelled to when by working at the weekend you are going to earn extra.

You know, dependent on the mood, there are all sorts of ways to fix their (management) wagon if you don't like their attitude.

By the way, any situation like this where there is no legal obligation to comply is an opportunity to NEGOTIATE.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

I wonder how many of us are concerned about how of this stuff gets posted on the company's nickel?

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

Everyone that still gets paid overtime should be thankful these days.  I don't see it much anymore.  But I am automotive so maybe that's my problem.

My company is one of those "be thankful we are letting you work here" places.

I do not get paid overtime.  We work until the job is done.  8 to 5 no matter if we have work to do or not.  and 24/7 if you can't meet deadlines.

I have a problem with it if the reason I can't get stuff done is more of an organizational issue.  Alot of our engineers work 12 hour days.  They never seem to catch up. And if it looks like a job might be winding down they give them more work.  Why hire more employees when you just work your engineers to death.  To be honest though I think some of them like it.

That's why I like companies that pay overtime.  They don't like to pay it ;)

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

moltenmetal-

"And neither will the engineers who work for me."
Engineers work for the company not you so you might want to be careful with how you choose your words.
 

Tunalover

RE: Mandatory overtime - should I be happy or sad?

tunalover:  you are correct of course that the average manager doesn't set policy of this sort.

The average manager DOES have control over whether or not they compell uncompensated overtime from their staff, though. And it's their ethical obligation NOT to do so.  Ask, sure!  Demand, or compell as a condition of continued employment- no way.  Demanding uncompensated overtime from your underlings so you can get a bigger performance bonus yourself is pretty sleazy, don't you think?

Fortunately at present, I'm not just a manager- I do have some ownership, and a position which gives me a say in regard to how the engineers are compensated.  The existing system pre-dated my joining, and the wonderful things this system does for the company in terms of individual and group performance and staff/skill retention is one of the key reasons I chose to join.

If the other owners decided tomorrow to cancel the way we compensate for O/T and performance, instead choosing to extort uncompensated overtime from our professional staff for greater personal gain, I'd be out the next day.  They'd be slaying the goose that lays the golden eggs.   You're of course right that I might not be so lucky at my next firm!

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