eng-tips promoting laziness?
eng-tips promoting laziness?
(OP)
I can't be the only on who has these thoughts. Do people own and/or read/study handbooks anymore? Why is it that individuals want (or need) to be spoon feed? Etc...
I realize: that mentoring on the job is not what it once was, immediate gratification is an epidemic in the world today, and eng-tips helps me (I am very glad it exists and is active).
With that said, are eng-tips promoting (contributing to) laziness?
NB My underlying objective of this thread is to improve myself when dealing with others when I rightly or wrongly perceive laziness or lack of qualifications. I know I am not alone.
Thank you.





RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
There's nothing wrong with giving an answer, but the source (a book, the Help files, etc) should also be referenced. A partial answer with a linked to the source for the remainder is best.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Those who need something "urgently" but clearly haven't invested any of their own time either get RF'd or the usual suspects wade in and we all have a snigger at their expense.
- Steve
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
As Sompting said, most of the people who are "lazy" and don't want to research get RF'd.
I think this site is extremely valuable, especially for younger engineers who have questions that may not be in textbooks, and are looking for answers based on experience.
V
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I think that the 'immediate gratification' is a symptom of the modern world. The digital revolution has placed unheard of volumes of data at the click of a button. Whether that makes someone lazy depends on how you use it.
There are definately lazy posters who couldn't even be bothered spending the 10 seconds required to use a search engine. They are the exception.
I think most people (fresh grad through to seasoned pro) are here to learn. The fact that they made the effort to post questions and reply to others indicates most posters are not lazy.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I don't agree that this site is most valuable for younger engineers. I get a lot of value from it and it's been decades since anyone called me "younger" (in fact my kids claim I'm older than dirt). Even some of the incredibly basic questions that start a discussion can teach us tottering old folks a thing or two as the conversation develops.
Many of us "usual suspects" will look at the posting history of the OP of a new question and if they are just asking and never helping, we either pick at them or ignore them. Some realize that to get answers they have to give them and become useful. The others just get frustrated with the lack of help they get and go away. Both answers are just fine.
What I love about this place is the peer review. When I say something stupid here (a couple of times a day), a half dozen folks chime in pretty quickly with corrections, alternative analysis, or ridicule--all help.
I've rarely seen anyone with the cheek to cite eng-tips.com as the basis for a real world decision. If someone comes here and gets the answer to how to compute the moment of inertia of a sphere, they'll never admit it inside their company. Maybe next time they'll be able to tell someone else how to compute the volume of an earthen berm for a SPCC plan (another very basic question, but one that requires a clear statement of your assumptions).
David
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I think the number of people here that ask a question to get free or easy answers are far and few between. On sites like PLCTALK.net, it is a running joke on how every quarter a bunch of students will ask a question about how to make a stoplight with a plc. This site is nothing like that.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Maybe not.
But I am fearful that eng-tips is used - uncited - far too often as the basis for real-world decisions.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
In fact, I think there is more outrage seems at the multiple posters than the lazy ones.
For students, there is an excellent alternative at www.cheresources.com though lazy people don't get away with it any more than here.
Eng-tips, whatever its failings might be, is to be savoured for the occasional light-hearted approach in some fora, the wicked sarcasm that is sometimes the response to bad posts and for the occasional blood feuds that flare up (the most notable being the electrical engineering one of a couple of years ago).
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I agree with the above CorBlimeyLimey:
"There's nothing wrong with giving an answer, but the source (a book, the Help files, etc) should also be referenced. A partial answer with a linked to the source for the remainder is best."
A full, detailed spoon fed answer to a newbie is often not a good policy...it is far better to point to an authoritative document and let the learning begin.
_MJC
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts" Patrick Moynihan
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Eng-tips advice should not be used "as a source for real-world problems", but CBL and MJC were proposing to share their own sources instead of spoon-feeding solutions. I agree with them. Whether or not a source reference is helpful depends on the question.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I actually credit this site for the fact that my bosses noticing that my technical aptitude is far above that of my peers (even those with more formal education). Not that I'm always learning theories from eng-tips, but I am certainly exposed to a far greater range of issues and discussions than I ever would be in my office alone and that has allowed me to expand my thinking and use that in my job.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I'd argue that the truly lazy ones read only the handbooks and make decisions on that basis alone! No consultation with colleagues, or looking for information in more depth when needed.
The good ones read the handbooks, talk with their own colleagues and THEN come here to see what a broader range of experienced engineers have to say about it.
You've got to realize that many engineers work in small offices where the pool of colleagues is pretty limited. Eng-Tips can take that pool and turn it into an ocean- which is great if you know how to swim, and dangerous if you don't...!
The ones asking the hopelessly unqualified questions should, and do, get the electronic back of the hand.
I've answered a few questions that I probably shouldn't have, but it's often because I was worried about the person in question getting in over their head and hurting somebody.
I've asked plenty of dumb questions to electrical and mechanical engineers over the years about stuff no chem eng should properly be expected to know, and they've been both helpful and respectful. So when an electrical asks a chem eng question, I'm happy to (try to) help.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
A lot of engineers think alike but we don't all necessarily learn the same way. Often in school I found other engineers would struggle with the theory and that the problem solving came naturally. I usually understand the theory and its implications pretty quickly but I have to put the most effort into seeing how the theory is applied through calculations.
Maybe I should be a scientist or a manager, but that aside, I really love complete examples and direct answers to questions, especially when I'm trying to learn something. Now a mentor or a professor can string me along and let me struggle occasionally to help me learn, but I think it goes better after I've had some examples to study and figure out just so I'm in the right mindset. But from an internet forum or a textbook, I'd like more direct help.
Especially textbooks. Some of them are horrible references since almost all the content is "left as an exercise for the student".
I believe that an engineer that likes to study examples isn't necessarily lazy and can reach the same level of understanding as any other engineer who learns through any other method.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Agree with that molten, and I voted him a second star.
"I'd argue that the truly lazy ones read only the handbooks and make decisions on that basis alone! No consultation with colleagues, or looking for information in more depth when needed. "
Nope, that guy is a lazy-wannabe. Truly
lazyefficient engineers check any/all sources to find if somebody has already solved the problem before resorting to doing their own research/calculation/experiment, or, worse building it anyway, only to fight with endless problems in construction/assembly/production of the building/device/process.More importantly, one should never consider any single source as gospel, whether handbook, research paper, consultation with an "expert", or random quip from sarcastic eng-tips posters.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
After these replies the poster usually either retracts or corrects itself.
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Tell them to RTFM! This is exactly why the expression is popular.
Telling people like this what handbook to read is good practise. I have a couple books on my shelf now because somone on Eng-Tips told me to read them. The textbooks, handbooks and manuals contain way more information than you can provide in a response. When you or I respond to the OP, we really do not know what the problem is. The OP can read the books the context of the original design issue.
When the OP appears to be in over their head, an excellent response is to tell them what section of their mechanics of materials or machine design textbook to read. This is way more tactful than flaming them, especially important if it turns out they are qualified. If they do not have mechanics of materials or machine design textbooks, you have done nothing to provide them a warm, fuzzy feeling of confidence they should not have.
JHG
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I come to eng-tips and just read through some threads. Many engineers mention failures in their responses. In this way, my "engineering judgment" is increased. My practical knowledge of what to check in my designs is also improved.
eng-tips has been an efficiency tool for me. I have posted all my questions after reading references and still not getting it... Then I turn to the engineering community.
This question about laziness surprised me.
Thanks, eng-tips. Thanks fellows.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I probably shouldn't get on my soap box as I think a couple times I may have been guilty but even if not explicit laziness it's sure as heck not spending enough time thinking about it to not inconvenience others.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Eng-Tips does promote laziness.
Here it is the middle of the afternoon, I should be working on a specification, but instead I am surfing Eng-Tips because if the boss walks up, it looks like work.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Sometimes you just don't have access to resources(manuals, textbooks, etc...)that you know others have.
David
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
The ostensible purpose of the fora is to enable engineers to obtain help from other engineers.
However, I am sure many (I hesitate to presume most)engineers find more satisfaction in being the supplier of wisdom rather than being the recipient.
That being so the only laziness that offends is that which does not challenge or surprise, even the taboo students get away with it if they ask interesting enough questions.
Eng-tips may or may not encourage laziness in others but for most of us (I'm more sure of this)it has greater compensating values. We only get upset at laziness when it fails to stimulate us, whether the questioner is lazy or not is their problem and if they don't too obviously make it ours, we tolerate it.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Eng-Tips not for lazi, I learnded a lot hear.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Then we can go and smugly dispense illicitly gained wisdom elsewhere.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I think Eng-Tips could become a great tool to unify engineers since many engineering organizations fail to do so.....mainly due to exorbitant member fees...ASCE to name one.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Also several misconceptions I have held were very abruptly rectified when I stated them here.
Then of course there are the huge number of ideas you see from others in the threads you follow. This can be new to you, they can change your current thinking or they can reinforce your current thinking as the case may be.
Re the comments on sources, in the areas I visit the sources are often personal experience, judgement calls and creative thinking and reasoning. You just can't find a lot of that in books. sometimes you already knew it but needed confirmation.
If that is slacking, I guess I'm a slacko
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I think you've got it right!
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I don't think you have that one quite right. I've rarely seen a "wrong" post go unchallenged. In fact, I've often seen a thread dragged into minutia with poster after poster taking me to task for some stupid statement I've made. The Peer Review here is immediate, on point, and often brutal--unlike most official Peer-Reviewed venues I've participated in.
David
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I must disagree with the statement that eng-tips is dangerous. It is a source of information, in the same way as asking a colleague or reading a paper/textbook is. As a Professional Engineer you must be able to justify/verify the information you receive. In my opinion accepting blindly and not doing so IS dangerous. Just because the information was obtained here is neither here nor there. Other sources can also provide duff info.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Knowledge is empowering, and power can be abused. Information obtained from any medium, has the potential to be dangerous if misused.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
ctopher,
You sold your treadmill!!! What are you going to hang your clothing on then?
And no I don't think Eng-Tips promotes laziness. It gives me motivation to superficially gloss over my work and troll around on this site.
Seriously, I learn a great deal just reading about the technical problems that are discussed by others. I can't really post any serious engineering issues I happen to be working on since it involves structures in litigation.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
David
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Eng-Tips made me lazy...what do I nead a treadmill for?
I can use the money to upgrade my RAM/VC so Eng-Tips runs quicker.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I find many posts to be questions for clarification, interpetation, or a depth beyond what the textbook, manuals, and similar resources often cover. I know a while back there was a discussion about if it made any sense to have a split lockwasher with a flat washer underneath. That's not something that is typically discussed in a textbook. I've also seen questions such as "What has anybody used for the capture velocity of exhaust fumes in ventilation?" Typically, I presume that the posters has a knowledge of how to design ductwork and such, but there is a piece of information missing. Yes, there are books that give a typical value, but how much is that trusted? The extra piece that another individual might be able to offer such as, "(Insert reference) states a velocity of 2000fpm, but in a particular project I had I used this value and it didn't seem to be sufficient. We had to increase the fan speed and I'd figure the velocity was at 2500fpm when we were satisfied."
Typically it seems the most interesting and the best response come when somebody has interpetation or there is a vague area in the data. I don't often see people asking for a "do it for me" response. Drawing on others experience and/or mistakes is not lazy, it's smart. Eng-Tips is just another watercooler for us to gather around and discuss.
Another type of post that I see is a rant or somebody asking for advice on what to do in a particular situation. I don't have any psychology or social interaction texts, and don't think I'd trust them if I did. Again, Eng-Tips offers a place to discuss the issue and (for myself at least) assure individuals that many engineers will have issues with customers/bosses/vendors at some point and it's no big deal.
-- MechEng2005
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Thanks...I'll have someone go get it for me!
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Experience is perhaps the single best learning tool available. In dealing with welding/metallurgy, there is only so much you can read about in texts and manuals. The learning comes from dealing with modern materials and modern problems that are dealt with as it comes. In reading eng-tips, I am granted the opportunity to read about those who have experienced these problems, the do's and don'ts of how to approach it, and I am that much more adequately prepared to face this problem should I ever find myself in that situation.
Of course, I would rather be on-site experiencing and dealing with these issues in person, learning by doing. However, I don't choose when and where I'm placed in the field. I still spend a lot of time at this desk, and eng-tips enables me to make the best of it.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
We agree that in a sense, THAT'S what Eng-Tips is for! Calibrating your own commonsense with the experience of others. You need a critical mind and a sound knowledge of the fundamentals to properly benefit from this source of information, but you do for ALL information sources anyway.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
The nature of a post board is not appropriate for many topics I see floating around on here.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Have you got any good examples of that, I'm a bit surprised by "many".
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
To be here we are supposed to be engineers, and as such we should have he skills and knowledge to asses the wrth of the information posted.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I would like you to point out one example where more than two or three people agreed on one solution or direction, of which you disagree.
I have to respectfully disagree with you.
V
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Another star.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Pat, you should drop by more often.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
I'm having great difficulty scrolling down in this thread because of the weight of your stars...
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Only if I could work and live without this herd!
Ciao.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Pretty soon Eng-Tips will allow posters to trade stars for air miles...or did I just invent that?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
That means we would have to pay to login. ;)
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
The better we are, the more advertising the site can sell and the more valuable we become and hence deserving of air miles.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
-- MechEng2005
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
Besides not all the questions are technical, there's also questions of methods, and situations.
And for the few who are the locational one of a kind engineers, it helps in the learning of new ideas.
RE: eng-tips promoting laziness?
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