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SonyAD (Computer) (OP)
20 Oct 08 2:52
I'm thinking of using a BN additive for engine oil. I've already used a MoS2 additive with synthetic oil and am using currently using 5w40 diesel synthetic mixed with 10w40 semisynth already containing MoS2 and probably other friction and/or antiwear additive. Same manufacturer, they say it's ok to mix any of their oils but to expect lower performance if you add a lower grade lubricant to a higher grade.

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/e_3721.html

Should I try it boron nitride or not? Is it any good? Anyone used stuff like this here? Could there be any ill-effects from mixing it with engine oil containing MoS2?
romke (Automotive)
20 Oct 08 9:12
what do you want to achieve by using an extra additive in the oil?
dgallup (Automotive)
20 Oct 08 9:20
Your link produces this:

Cera Tec

CERA TEC is a high-tech ceramic wear protection product for all motor oils. CERA TEC reduces friction and wear due to ceramic compounds that withstand extremely high chemical and thermal loads.

Why not just add a little sand to your oil?
SonyAD (Computer) (OP)
20 Oct 08 13:03
The reason I'm looking into this is operational safety. I drive a 2 litre, very slightly undersquare (85 x 88 mm, same as the 2 litre petrol) turbodiesel that routinely sees 4500 rpm and full throttle operation. I want my engine to last(idle it 10~20 minutes before setting off, 1~5 minutes before shutting off, never lugging, stomping only above 2000 rpm as a rule of thumb, etc.).

"Micro ceramic solid lubricant suspension based on hexagonal boron nitride (BN) in mineral oil. The laminar graphite-similar structure reduces friction and wear and prevents direct metal-to-metal contact. The < 0.5 µm particle size guarantees optimal filter flow properties and protects against depositing of solid lubricant particles."

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/mediendb.nsf/gfx2/3721%20Cera%20Tec_EN.pdf/$file/3721%20Cera%20Tec_EN.pdf

Like carbon is allotropic, it seems BN is polymorphic. The additive contains the BN polymorph suitable for use as lubricant, not the one suitable for machining tool bits.

Anyone have any experience with this stuff or shall I be the first to have a go? If it's any good I'm thinking of adding it to the tranny as well. But it says that it shouldn't be used with wet clutches, synchro trannies or LSDs.
ivymike (Mechanical)
20 Oct 08 15:19
you idle 10-20min before driving?  Is it extremely cold where you are?
 
Cargeke (Bioengineer)
20 Oct 08 15:56
I think you could rebuild the engine a couple times for the cost of those fancy additives over the life of an average diesel, especially with that Ceratec going for ~$27 a bottle. http://www.duw.de/shop/detailview.aspx?catalogproductid=64306&affiliateid=1 Figuring a diesel will last ~200,000 miles and changing the oil every 3000 miles, Ceratec will cost you nearly $1800!  Add that to the other stuff you're pouring in there and you've got an engine rebuild no problem.  Just change the oil regularly and use a good synthetic and you should have no longevity issues.

P.S.  What's the point of idling before shutting off?
DigitalGT (Military)
20 Oct 08 16:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Cargeke: P.S.  What's the point of idling before shutting off?

Other than to provide cooling oil and/or water to the turbo to prevent oil coking, I can't think of one.

 
patprimmer (Publican)
20 Oct 08 17:04
Turbo cool down time is an issue and a minute or two cool down is prudent, especially if you stop immediately after a high boost run. Most times there will be a default cool down time as you slow down and park the car.

Diesel engines typically have a very long life if serviced regularly with the OEM recommended grades of oil WITH NO EXTRA ADDITVES.

Many user added additives can decrease oil performance in some cases.  

Regards

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SonyAD (Computer) (OP)
21 Oct 08 2:58
I run LM Diesel Synthoil 5w40 full synthetic:
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/e_1341.html

ACEA B4-98/B3-98 Issue 2 ; API CF ; BMW Longlife-98 ; MB-Freigabe 229.1 ; MB-Freigabe 229.3 ; VW 502.00 / 505.00

that I top off with LM MoS2 Leichtlauf 10w40 semisynthetic:
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/e_1092.html

ACEA A3-98/B3-98 ; API SJ/CF/SH/CF/EC

I'm thinking of going on a 50/50% mix of these two for the nest OCI. I change at 5000~7000 miles.

The dyno oil already contains moly, probably other additives as well. Hence no API SL/SM, Porsche, BMW and other certifications.

No oil consumption but it leaked a little round the filler cap and valve cover when I started using the synthetic, so I topped up with the dyno. The oil hangs around in the engine a very long time, weeks, before mostly draining to the sump so it's a little difficult to tell but I really don't think it's burning any oil.

I'm not really concerned about the additive cost, they say one application every 30000 miles is enough.

I've also bought a bosch filter with an oil retention valve.

This is the reason I started using the additive. The car had stayed in storage for a year when I got it:

Probably the thrust side of the cam. These look better:

drwebb (Automotive)
21 Oct 08 17:59
To cover all the bases consider throwing in some PTFE (aka Teflon) and chlorinated parafins to the cocktail as well.  Who knows- you might even find a synergy.
romke (Automotive)
22 Oct 08 0:06
i would not worry about using extra additives. just buy a high quality oil, confirming to the latest ACEA and/or API standards and also in compliance with what the engine manufacturer prescribes. if you think the camshaft has suffered, there is nothing you can do with a change of oil or putting in an extra additive - you will have to change the camshaft to cure the problem. as far as MoS2 and other solid lubricant components that may be dispersed in the engine oil: they can have only a limited effect - only when there is boundary or mixed lubrication. that usually is only when starting and stopping the engine, as long as it runs there is practically full hydrodynamic lubrication and in those occurrences where that is not the case the incorporated antiwear additives needed to be able to meet the ACEA/API requirements will take care of that.

 
SonyAD (Computer) (OP)
22 Oct 08 3:06
I don't have a particulate filter on the car, it's only euro2 emissions' standard compliant. Also, I don't care that much about fuel economy. I just want the best engine protection, so something like API CH or upwards is probably not best for me.

drwebb, I've never used anything other than moly as a lubricant additive. I'm considering only boron nitride as another.

Also, I buy all my lubricants, additives and fuel additives from Liqui Moly, a German lubricants' company that's been in business for 50 years. They're hardly duralube, slick 50, motor up, prolong, 2+2 or some other shady snake oil brand that are so popular even across the pond.

If you'd care to look on their site you'd find no such things as chlorinated paraffins or PTFE oil additives, and yet they sell everything from engine flush to fuel and injection system flush and a BN additive. I would never have bought anything from them were it the case they sold PTFE or CP. Also, all their lubricants are at least API and ACEA certified. Many/most are also certified by MB, BMW, Porsche, VW, Ford and others. If I'm going to use BN it's going to be CeraTEC from LM or nothing at all.

I apologise in the eventuality this is construed as advertising but I don't care for the undertones. I'm not the one to use fuel line magnets or duralube because of timken tests that sell the sheeple. I've wanted to use Lubrication Engineers :) for gearbox oil ( http://www.le-inc.com/gearbox.jsp ) but they don't cater to where I live.
drwebb (Automotive)
22 Oct 08 13:46
You wrote MoS2 but perhaps you meant MoDTC or other soluble Mo anti-wear chemistry.  It seemed odd to combine two different solid lubricants to top treat an engine oil.  Rest assured my suggestion was not intended to disparage the undoubtedly fine products from the good folks at LiquiMoly.

As to whether it's good or not, I am unaware of (and the website does not provide) credible data that BN can prevent camshaft wear any better than the soluble chemistries already in formulated engine oils.  I also can't think of how it might do it better than PTFE, MoS2, graphite or other solid lubricants.  BN is chemically very inert, so as long as the particle sizes are small enough not to load the filter one may expect it will interact with the oil components similarly to soot, dust and other solid contaminants held in suspension by the engine oil dispersants.

FWIW, API and ACEA only certify finished lubricant formulas- they don't cover top treats- and API licensed lubricants will carry the trademarked "donut" or "starburst" symbol.  There is a big difference (i.e. $50k-500K) between claiming API 'SX-' or 'CX-performance' and being licensed as having the test data to back it up.

Good luck with your diesel, and be sure to share how your project works out.
evelrod (Automotive)
22 Oct 08 14:51
My two cents on this "project" (that is all I see it as. Keep spending, it makes the world function...as we all have so recently found out) is that just because a company has managed to survive for 50 years is not indicative of quality.

My one ton Dodge turbo diesel has managed quite well for somewhere in the 200,000 mile range (the odo quit at 186,000 four or five  years ago) with conventional lubrication and standard service intervals. I've seen several high mileage Cummins/Dodge and one that made ONE MILLION MILES on standard non synthetic engine oil !!!!!

Additives by their nature often fall into the 'snake oil' category.
As I see it, if there was a readily accessible additive to any oil company that would give them an edge, they would in all probability already have it.  Tain't rocket science any longer.

Anyway, best of luck, really!  Keep us posted. I always learn from this stuff, even if it is to just not do it.

Rod





 
SonyAD (Computer) (OP)
22 Oct 08 18:18
I also know of a 2.2 common rail turbo diesel with 130 thousand miles on board that slightly exceeds the manufacturer specifications though peak torque is a little higher than should be. Same manufacturer as mine. Bought SH, only ever treated with Mobil 1 0w40 diesel every 20 thousand odd miles.

It's not just an issue of doing without an engine overhaul. The purpose is also to continue to have no (measurable/noticeable) oil consumption and put out the factory numbers like 2.2 does.

The first pic of the cam seems to show spalling but you can't feel any irregularity in the cam surface. It's perfectly smooth throughout, at least it feels so to the touch. Tried picking at it with a tooth pick (that's what the marks in oil are) but it's mirror smooth. There's oil film on them (oil rainbow on the follower track) even after sitting for days.

I've only ever used MoS2(molybdenum disulphide), never MoDTC. Whether as a standalone additive to an LM oil without (full synth. 5w40) or mixing that oil with the one LM oil that contains moly (semisynth 10w40).

Also, another thing I liked about LM and that persuaded me to take my business to them is their classification of oil in fully synthetic, synthetic technology, part synthetic, mineral based and special, making clear distinction between their SAE group IV and III products.

About the API and ACEA certifications, you mean they could legally claim API CF, for instance, certification without the product actually having cleared AP institute testing and this would be the case if the starburst symbol is not shown? Like Amsoil claiming to "meet or exceed" API requirements in cases where the respective product has not actually been certified by API?

For example, the following engine oil
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/mediendb.nsf/gfx2/1360%20synthoil%20energy%20sae%200w-40_EN.pdf/$file/1360%20synthoil%20energy%20sae%200w-40_EN.pdf

Synthoil Energy 0w40 is stated to meet API SJ/CF/SH/EC/CF, ACEA A3-98/B3-98, MB 229.1 but:

LIQUI MOLY advise this product for vehicles with the following specifications: BMW Longlife-98 ; Opel GM-LL-B025 ; MB 229.3 ; Porsche ; VW 502.00 / 505.00

They make clear distinction between between approvals/specifications/clearing and their own advisory. Why would they not do so for API and ACEA, were it not the case their products actually are certified by API.

True, there may be the issue of the approval expiry (I know Porsche approval expires) and their not being willing to renew certifications for a product that has already passed the relevant testing and is still being manufactured and sold in the same formulation and quality control. But this would be another thing. I'll check the label tomorrow for the api symbol but I don't remember seeing that on any engine oil I've come across.

Also, I have checked and Liqui Moly products have indeed cleared bmw, porsche, MB and VW certification programs. Obviously, I have not checked all their Porsche, MB, BMW, VW aproved products for such.

I'll try to save up for dyno testing (I also have to change the trailing arm bearings on the rear, the rear tires, the rear brake sabots for the drums, the front pads, the front shocks - they're leaking -  and maybe the flanches as well) before and after I use the CeraTEC. They say to use it to use it every 30000 miles with at least 3000 miles until the oil change, so it has time to work in.

Cheers.
Tmoose (Mechanical)
22 Oct 08 19:39
By spalling do you mean the continuous fine washboard pattern across the lobe?

I believe that was caused by a slightly out of balance grinding wheel.
drwebb (Automotive)
23 Oct 08 12:08
SonyAD, I'm curious why you advocate BN and MoS2 top treats but dismiss PTFE as snake oil?  What are the important attributes of solid lubricants for engine oil application and why is PTFE indadequate?  Why do you plan to use 50/50 MoS2 and BN instead of all one or the other?
SonyAD (Computer) (OP)
23 Oct 08 16:09
It seems, at the time being, the only two German companies producing API licensed motor oils are:

ADDINOL LUBE OIL GMBH
RAVENSBERGER SCHMIERSTOFFVERTRIEB GMBH

http://eolcs.api.org/FindCompaniesByCountry.asp?Country=GERMANY

Addinol:
http://www.addinol.de/Engine_oils_-_passenger_c.75.0.html?&L=2&ftu=e2997c85bf

ADDINOL LUBE OIL GMBH began marketing licensed motor oil products on March 14, 2003 under a license issued by the American Petroleum Institute. This License and Agreement will terminate on March 14, 2009 unless extended by mutual agreement.

Ravenol:
http://www.ravenol.de/products?part=294

RAVENSBERGER SCHMIERSTOFFVERTRIEB GMBH began marketing licensed motor oil products on May 1, 2005 under a license issued by the American Petroleum Institute. This License and Agreement will terminate on May 1, 2009 unless extended by mutual agreement.

Maybe one of them sells base stocks to Liqui Moly as well. Or maybe they buy from exxonmobil or whatever. Who knows anything anymore?

Does this mean Liqui Moly chose not to extend their license agreement at some point or that their oils were never licensed at all? I highly doubt that. They may choose to renew API licensing, if/when they launch a new lubricant. It is possible some manufacturer certifications have expired though I've had more luck looking these up.

drwebb, CeraTEC has been certified by TÜV as far as the product claims are concerned. The MoS2 laden semisynthetic is also TüV certified. I know of no PTFE additives being manufactured alongside actual lubricants by a remotely respectable lubricants company. Let alone any certified by a recognized independent attesting body as pertaining to the product claims. MoS2 and BN actually coat sliding surfaces and don't fall out of suspension. They can also withstand higher to much higher temperatures without oxidizing/braking down. I should think the foremost use of these additives is in reducing startup and high temperature & high load wear.

I'm thinking of using a mix of a synthetic 5w40 and semisynthetic 10w40 for a compromise of detergency, TBN, HTHS resistance, friction modifier/antiwear additives, oil flow on startup and viscosity.
dgallup (Automotive)
23 Oct 08 17:09
My impression of TÜV certification is it's sort of like the Wall St. bond rating agencies.  You pay them to certify your product (rate your bonds) so they give you the results you pay for.  AAA junk.  It all looks up & up to the consumer until the market crashes.  TÜV is by no means a lubrication expert, they will certify absolutely anything to any standard or spec you can imagine and a lot you can't.  In my search of their site I found no reference to lubricants.

It's your money, waste it as you see fit.  You're already doing more damage than good with 20 minute warm-ups.
romke (Automotive)
24 Oct 08 0:55
As far as API licensing is concerned, my guess is that most engine oils sold in Europe are not API licensed/carrying the donut, but sold as "meeting the requirements of". They do however usually comply with the ACEA specs and are tested, either as a fully formulated product, or the additive package is tested in a suitable baseoil, where the actual performance of a real world product is based on read across methods as approved by ACEA and/or API. The reason that most oils in Europe are not API licensed is that there are very few engines around that really would require that. European manufacturers usually prefer either ACEA or additional proprietary requirements, where as japanese manufacturers allow the use of oils that "meet API requirements" without being licensed formally. So there is no need in Europe to license an oil, which only would add costs but brings no real benefit given the engines involved.

Since the ACEA and manufacturers requirements are also more stringent in some aspects (preventing wear in high revving, small engines that are driven fast)the engine oil quality on average in Europe is better then in the US. The API and ACEA testsequences do have a number of common (engine) tests as both licensing organizations are aware of the cost involved, and specifications are moving closer together. Still there is a lot of difference between driving patterns and engine size though, that call for some dedicated testing.

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