It's been almost two years since I started working as an engineer, 6 months since I started in the aerospatial industry as a materials&processes eng. And there's this thing I noticed: 80% of the things I deal are not easy-access.

I mean, I always end up wasting time, stuck into finding what hell of an ASTM standard is out there for nickel alloy welding, or where I can find the density of the Whateverflom-Butidontnyl polymer or similar stuff.

It is not that I haven't got resources, we have handbooks, manuals, catalogues, access to standard-downloading pay websites and whatnot...

...but it happens more than usually that the component I'm searching for is highly marginal and with so few data available, and I have to look endlessly until I find the property I want into an obscure reference hidden into the darkest place of the archive or into a link in the internet, just before I was about to retreat.

I use this site a lot, and it helps, but sometimes it isn't enough.

Do you, senior engineers, have the same problem or is it that I haven't mastered the art of search or something?

 

That's a really interesting question.

In my first ten years as an engineer after uni I didn't buy any books at all - I got a few freebies along the way.

In my third decade I think I buy at least a book a month.

So I have a strong suspicion that a young engineer lacks the shear density of reference material that I rely on.

Materials data in particular is more difficult - it costs money, and there is no theory driving it - nobody gets intellectual kudos from publishing big tables of fatigue properties.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

In my experience, it is not uncommon to spend a considerable amount of time doing informational research.  Sometimes, if you are doing industry leading work, the information is just not out there as it is being invented along the way.  Other times, you may run into "trade secrets" or other proprietary information and not be able to get much further (at least without special agreements).

The good news is that as you continue, you will be building your own knowledgebase and it does become a bit easier.

Regards,

Oh, and of course as you wander along through these problems, occasionally you'll end up testing this stuff to generate the data.

At that point it is worth considering exactly if, how and why you should publish it - after all, it scarcely seems reasonable to expect other people to do what you won't. (Clue - you won't publish it, be bloody glad that previous generations were so generous)


 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

I echo Greg and PSE, the early years I spent a lot of time, at the microfich printing out specs and standards.  First 6 months they were in a folder, then a 1 inch binder, then a 2 inch binder, then multiple binders.  Then the internet, pdf, and Gigs of memory appeared.  Now I have 500 meg of specs and standards, plus 3 shelfs of a bookcase of printed material that is not available online or will cost extra to obtain.

I spend much less time searching for info, except for the data on unobtainium.  Greg is right on his hint, you will not publish the results of your testing to give your competitor an edge (unless the testing was funded with tax dollars).

One thing I have learned is that if I don't know where to find it in my companie's or my personal library, and google can't turn something up in th efirst couple pages, is to get on the phone. Call your supplier or the manufacturer if you know who that is. Keep going up the line until you get someone who knows where to find it and can get you a copy on paper or via email. Always get a copy of the reference though. This has saved me a lot of time looking for data.

Talk to engineers that are soon to retire, they usually have good books.

My last company decided to clean house one Saturday.
They (facilities) threw out everything including books, drawings, tooling, paper, etc. They didn't know what the stuff was!!
So, I am fresh out of books...

Chris
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Like others have said you will spend lots of time looking up and researching things in the beginning.  You will gradually notice over time this effort will decrease and become easier.  Maybe even now you will be sitting in a meeting and someone will have a question about a material or equipment and you will be able to rattle off the answer without even looking.

Thanks to everyone for your comments!

Well, first thing I thought was to find a senior and "suck" all his research knowledge, but problem is, I haven't still found the right target!!

I guess I just have to keep searching until I build a good database and a solid list of sources. But, as of today, for me it can take an enormous amount of time to find a number or a reference, or useful data.

About testing, well, If I was free to do so, I would tensile-test even my pencil and publish the data everywhere. But I'm afraid my company is not that keen about testing. And also there's a lot of internal bureaucracy to fulfill...

I worked for a food/chemical research lab [as plant engr] that was thinning out their library, and I picked up much useful reference books. Arbitrary discards of useful references is a travesty, but I gained from the experience. As I exited the library, I noticed that the remaining shelves were filled about 25%.

My library is two full walls and 5 DVD's.  When young engineers ask me for data they generally end up overwhelmed.  The analog that I use to explain it is to remember walking into the middle of a technical class (pre-PowerPoint, five chalk boards mostly full) and try to make any sense at all out of the information on the walls--it never confuses you when you were there for every step, but it looks like chaos when you enter at the middle.  Same thing here.  Over the decades you'll accumulate the detritus of stuff that was important at the time and may even be important again.

Today, like Greg, I buy almost a book a month, but mostly they're not as much help they used to be.  Early on, your career is well within the mainstream boundaries and things like Mark's Handbook are quite helpful.  Later, if your interests and abilities allow it, you move toward the edges of what is known/proven/accepted and have to make more and more judgement calls without any authority to cite.  You know you've arrived when you look something up in a book (or Google it) and find that nearly every citation for that subject is from papers you've written (or your own eng-tips.com posts).

One thing that I wish someone had told me early in my career--start a file of equations early.  Ten years ago (about 20 years into my career) I started a MathCad file I call "Fluid".  Every time I have to derive something, decide which published constants I believe, or simply find something that was useful I put a fully documented version in my Fluid.xmd file with a title and a collapsed area.  Right now it is around 30 screens collapsed and is invaluable.  It is the first place I go with a problem that I think I might have ever seen before.

David

"The analog that I use to explain it is to remember walking into the middle of a technical class (pre-PowerPoint, five chalk boards mostly full) and try to make any sense at all out of the information on the walls--it never confuses you when you were there for every step, but it looks like chaos when you enter at the middle."

You are clearly smarter than I zdas04

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

Tell me about it. I even have trouble following it when I write it!

V

The file approach seems like a good idea if you are always around the same kind of problems. The problem, as I said, is that I end up doing different things, and although they aren't breakthrough rocket-science, they aren't precisely mainstream.

So, a "stiff" approach, such as building or getting into a good database doesn't also seem to be the answer, because one day I can find the data for an specific subject but the next that stuff is invalid, because I'm into another stuff. I need to stablish "dynamic" routines of searching instead. Maybe it's best for me to build a database of sources, and their related knowledge field.

Well, maybe that's an idea. I can write an excel with all the sources/references I find for different subjects...
 

Everyone has ways of storing and accessing information that works for them.  My "Fluid" MathCad file has a pretty good range from the AGA fluid flow equations to a retaining wall calculation that I needed to set an elevated tank.  It has several forms of the Reynolds Number calc (with comments about when to use which) and an equation to predict the deflection of a flat plate supported on the perimeter.  It is mine (I've never shared it with anyone, and I don't plan to) and I can put anything I want in it, along with comments that might actually be libelous if I ever published it (but that make the form of the equation make sense to me).

I have a lot of source references that are often useful, but more often than not the great sources that I cited are no longer available the next time I need them (e.g., a lot of people have bookmarked www.muleshoe-eng.com for the samples pages, when I actually retire I am not going to continue paying for that web page so anyone who marked it will find a broken link).

Good luck

David

On the subject of personal libraries and documentation:

I'm currently thinking of writing myself a Wiki of all the stuff I know (or think I know) about tyres and vehicle dynamics. This would be more focused on racing and setup engineering (i.e. practical vehicle dynamics) than theory - because that's what I've got through experience that isn't really published or written in books.

I'm planning to use DokuWiki on a stick (http://www.splitbrain.org/blog/2007-12/01-dokuwiki_on_a_stick)

I was originally planning a documents database, but found I wanted something a bit less structured that was still linked together in some way and searchable.

Just wondering if anyone else has done anything similar?

Ben

Man, I can't one-up 5 DVD's and 2 full walls.
Unless your in a prison cell.

Nope, just a pack rat.  The DVD's are the worst because they are just .pdf files in folders and I never get the right DVD loaded the first time.  I keep threatening to try to develop categories, but it looks to me like there is too much overlap to be successful at that.  The books are pretty easy to group, but then I find that the one I need at any given time is in the wrong place.

David

Ben, great find. Now I can put that on my data drive, load all my cds to it, and then spend the next N years indexing it all.

Of course, then I'll need a backup for the backup drive...

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

I can top the 5 DVD's and 2 walls, but mine came from IT books. When I finally made the transition over to mechanical engineerin and deleted everything that was IT related I had over 30,000 information articles when I stopped counting. My collection was about 40gb of files and about 100+ CD's worth of other misc stuff like CBT's, video tut's, audio books, and manuals for evertyhing I could get my hands on. I pretty much collected everything I could find even when it was not in my field for IT, which I am already doing the same thing for engineering again

Having a stick where I can collect things as I find them, to use for future searches might be a good idea.

Anyone experienced on the DocuWiki thing? is it really practical?

Maybe just a log file to index things and throw everything into folders might be enough.

 

Just started setting my Dokuwiki up. It really is as good as it claims to be.

It suits the way I work very well, I can write notes, with other files embedded. As wordprocessors go it is not much good for writing reports, and I haven't tried to print anything out yet.

The worst thing is tables, for which wikis, and browsers generally, have rather ugly syntax.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

What I have tended to do is to set up an excel spreadsheet as my index file for either an individual project or data in general.  I include the file name, description and then create a hyperlink to the file itself.  As long as I do not move stuff around too much (or remember to update links if I do so), I have found that it works well.  I can use excel's data sorting capabilities to help me find an individual file reasonably quickly.

Regards,

I had a wiki at my last job I used heavly. I think the main use for it will be how much you enter in it. The one I had set up had all the major HP printers then you could pull up the most common break/fix routines, the manual, parts list and anything else I could figure out
Also I have heard you can have the wiki search pdf's to find what you are looking for this would be great for going through codes

Wiki/database, same things really.

Databases have two related problems:

1) When they are empty, they are boring.
2) Putting things in is boring.

If you can get over (2), (1) goes away.

- Steve

Hi Greg - Glad you like it. I came across it on a Formula SAE discussion thread about project management.

Ben