Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
(OP)
I nearly posted this over in -Engineering Project Management but I'm not sure how much traffic that forum gets so I'll post it here.
The outsourcing whirlwind is picking up momentum, first it was machining to Asia (which supposedly is saving bug $, though I'm not sure if those are real $ or projected) then drawing checking thread1103-216008: Outsourcing Checking (hasn't really worked out, yet) now it's design.
We've actually already outsourced some design to companies with specific expertise in specialist areas (not that it went smoothly) but now it looks like they're looking to do it for some not so specialist tasks.
I've been involved with outsourcing engineering tasks on both sides of the fence at a previous employer, though not really on sending out actual design tasks.
My first thoughts are that you need to robustly define the Requirement, not just technical/performance but things like drawing/CAD standards, what software they'll use etc and project/financial/contract issues, explicit list of deliverables etc.
Second is that you need to actively manage the process, with status tracking, design reviews and the like, not just ship it out and forget about it until it's due. This probably needs to be by more or less dedicated staff (though they may have more than one project to manage) not a design engineer doing it on the side or even a high level project manager doing it alongside significant management of internal work.
Third is that you need to examine/inspect what you receive to make sure you're getting what you asked for/specified, this doesn't just mean a cursory glance by someone not really qualified but quite likely a multi disciplinary design review and/or a detail review by relevant experts as required.
We currently fail to do this well for many internal projects and I'm concerned we'd be worse with outsourcing.
I'm not completely ruling out outsourcing, areas I've seen it work is out sourcing to 'experts' or for very large organizations outsourcing non-core tasks to smaller nimbler firms. However, these large organizations took the management of these efforts seriously and devoted resource to it. Also we are relatively small (mid sized company but with multiple sites/product lines each semi independent) so you'd hope we're flexible enough where eliminating the overhead etc doesn't compensate for the extra management required.
My manager has asked me to give some input on this, so that means you get a chance to have your say too
and make me look better (hence Improve Myself to Get Ahead in My Work). Any input appreciated did I miss anything or put anything that's nonsense. I did a quick search but didn't find as much as I expected to.
If places like Boeing manage to get it wrong on their premier project, what chance do we stand
The outsourcing whirlwind is picking up momentum, first it was machining to Asia (which supposedly is saving bug $, though I'm not sure if those are real $ or projected) then drawing checking thread1103-216008: Outsourcing Checking (hasn't really worked out, yet) now it's design.
We've actually already outsourced some design to companies with specific expertise in specialist areas (not that it went smoothly) but now it looks like they're looking to do it for some not so specialist tasks.
I've been involved with outsourcing engineering tasks on both sides of the fence at a previous employer, though not really on sending out actual design tasks.
My first thoughts are that you need to robustly define the Requirement, not just technical/performance but things like drawing/CAD standards, what software they'll use etc and project/financial/contract issues, explicit list of deliverables etc.
Second is that you need to actively manage the process, with status tracking, design reviews and the like, not just ship it out and forget about it until it's due. This probably needs to be by more or less dedicated staff (though they may have more than one project to manage) not a design engineer doing it on the side or even a high level project manager doing it alongside significant management of internal work.
Third is that you need to examine/inspect what you receive to make sure you're getting what you asked for/specified, this doesn't just mean a cursory glance by someone not really qualified but quite likely a multi disciplinary design review and/or a detail review by relevant experts as required.
We currently fail to do this well for many internal projects and I'm concerned we'd be worse with outsourcing.
I'm not completely ruling out outsourcing, areas I've seen it work is out sourcing to 'experts' or for very large organizations outsourcing non-core tasks to smaller nimbler firms. However, these large organizations took the management of these efforts seriously and devoted resource to it. Also we are relatively small (mid sized company but with multiple sites/product lines each semi independent) so you'd hope we're flexible enough where eliminating the overhead etc doesn't compensate for the extra management required.
My manager has asked me to give some input on this, so that means you get a chance to have your say too
If places like Boeing manage to get it wrong on their premier project, what chance do we stand
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?





RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
I suspect/ predict/ fear that anything positive you say about outsourcing will be heard much more clearly than the cautions you have already expressed about the need for detailed oversight... and when it all goes sideways, you will be blamed for the whole mess.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
You definitely need detailed project/program plans, and make your outsourcing agents meet those deadlines. You will need great communications, and from what you've stated above you don't even that in-house. Notice any rats jumping ship yet?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
-b
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
We don't make consumer products - they are metrology tools/instruments related to nanotechnology.
At present (though this can I'm sure change) they aren't looking to outsource this design abroad. In fact the first place they are looking at is in-state less than a days drive away.
Thanks for input so far.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
All of our commercial drawings were sent to them for mfg.
They trained the Chinese workers to build, QA, inspect, etc.
Then they hired a Chinese engineer, trained him how our products are designed, then gave him the freedom to translate the drawings to Chinese, non-US specs, and metric!
Over the past 6 years this has almost killed the company. This year they laid off half of the employees!
They learned that a lot of the products became more expensive to mfg in China, but it's too late.
China now has US technologies and know-how.
IMO, outsourcing is killing the US.
Boeing no longer does mfg, only assy. Almost all of the parts are outsourced to other countries. Now Airbus, China & Russia are going to 'squish' Boeing. No more American made anything...
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
The exception is if the outsourcee is more experienced than the outsourcer in which case the project might run smoothly, if they trust each other.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
As you noted, the design and performance requirements must be robust and quantifiable.
You will need to be able to determine exactly who's stuff isn't working correctly when you start trying to integrate the designs from a hodge-podge of different designers.
Your design contracts need to be iron clad.
To do this right, you need a staff of integration engineers that would probably be as large as the staff of design engineers required in the first place.
It's far easier to do it wrong.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
If your side does it the way our side does, I will tell you exactly what will happen.
The contract will state something extremely close to, "We don't give a crap what you give us, just make the CAD models look pretty. We'll take it in any way, shape, or form. Really! We don't care. Just give us anything."
And then, when it comes in, "finished", you will be the one to have to change everything that they did wrong. All the while, upper management will think everything went swimmingly, because none of the engineering managers have enough cajones to tell them that outsourcing design was a REALLY stupid move.
That's currently what I'm in the middle of now.
Hence, my comment in Mint's motivation thread.
V
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
* You must have the design requirements fully spelled out(Tolerances, materials, ICD's, environments, weight, finishes, pressures, dynamic/random vib, etc...)
* You must require the outsourced company to work in the same software (orphaned .stp models are no bueno)
* Time and materials contracts are to the contractors benefit not yours (FF contracts make them bid responsibly)
* Contractors working on sight are preffered to one's located oversea's (can oversee their work better)
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Apparantly our site/division exec VP, did it at previous employer and him & my VP thinks it's a good idea to do here. Director of Engineering isn't so sure and my Boss is highly sceptical, having got his fingers burnt at a previous employer.
As Greg & Mint have alluded to, my concern is that to do this properly we'll substitute say 10 staff of varying experience levels (designers, interns, junior & mid level engineers) for 5 or probably more Systems/Integration/Project Engineers of on average higher 'cost'.
I think they are looking at this primarily as a way of getting more work done without increasing staff (possibly decreasing staff). Now we are not that good at detail design of non core technology (I swear no one here had heard of tolerance before my boss started here) so the idea of getting better quality work done externally does have some appeal. I'm just sure they wont want to put in the management effort to make it work, and given that cost is the major driver we may be getting cheap not necessarily good work done externally.
Thanks everyone.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
You might ask them if they have considered outsourcing the management, as it can be done cheaper overseas as well.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
I would still advise caution, as I personally find that you DO get what you pay for, and 85% of the time that you try to find an exception, it will come back to bite you...
-- MechEng2005
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
The place they're looking at isn't just down the road, it's a fair distance, maybe 4-5 hours drive+. Although it probably has similar cost of living to our location. We're in Santa Barbara, they are somewhere in the Bay area.
The one thing I can think of is that I think the first package they are looking at is packaging of electronics in enclosures, both 19" rack and similar size desktop. If this shop is an expert in electronics packaging it may have merit but I'm still inclined to think it's more hassle than it's worth.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Interesting thread. Anybody read "The World is Flat" by Thomas L. Friedman? It contains a very interesting history of Outsourcing related to a bunch of different industries. It certainly seems that this concept will not soon go away. From what I can see the best thing to do is - learn how to manage it well. There has been some good suggestions here. Just wanted to put my two-cents in :-) .
Tobin Sparks
www.nov.com
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
AC Delco is an example of domestic outsourcing, although it did start off as a captive supplier. In aerospace/defense, there are dozens of 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers that are outsourced to by the big defense contractors. At one company, we were working on some nifty systems, but our BD guy snorted and said, "We are not a component company," to mean that our company was not going to waste its marketing muscle to peddle a $300K system when the same guyg could be peddling a $300M system. Even my current company, which is a 2nd tier supplier, outsources smaller subsystems to 3rd tier suppliers
This is the nature of human history and development. There was a time when every adult person alive knew how to grow his own food, build his own house, and make his own clothing and tools, etc. Even 20 years ago, the average teenager could strip and rebuild a carburetor.
So, we, as individuals, are also outsourcing our needs to the grocer, the gardener, the oil change shop, the clothing store, etc. When that happens, we lose direct control over the quality.
Anyway, outsourcing, to domestic or foreign suppliers, is not going away, simply because the leveraging of smaller systems into larger systems is where the bigger profits go. The lowest tier supplier is always squeezed for cost savings.
Unfortunately, there are an infinite number of paths to failure, and relatively few paths to success. Nonetheless, there are some things to do:
> Clear, quantifiable, and measurable requirements. Minimize the motherhood requirements.
> A System Requirements Review to ensure that the supplier understands the requirements to be the SAME requirements as you do. Often, what looks like a solid requirement to the writer looks like Swiss cheese to the supplier.
> A detailed Integrated Master Schedule and Plan. Look for reasonable time spans allocated to the work required.
> Earned value tracking. Frequent status reports that go beyond, "Everything's fine, don't worry."
> Design reviews, preliminary and critical. Look for tolerancing, margin analysis
> A solid verification plan and procedure. Everything that was specified should be tested to verify compliance to the requirements
> A solid product readiness review. How are they going to handle the production volume? Do they have the facilities, equipment, material suppliers, and labor force? Is their production plan realistic?
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
This largely falls under my "large organizations outsourcing non-core tasks to smaller nimbler firms" category for the most part, with some of the 'outsourcing to experts' thrown in. These were the places that took it seriously and devoted a fair amount of effort to managing it.
My concern is that my employer will just want to put together a very vague requirement, perhaps competatively tender it but likely sole source it, place the PO then forget about it till it's due.
Anyway, thanks for reminding me how it's done and thanks to others too.
(How the heck did I get a star when I'm the one asking the question?)
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
I pretty much agree with everything IRstuff says but would also add that finding a company you wish to work with over a period of time is paramount. Relationships need building and there are always going to be problems along the way, think of it as developing a product, there are nearly always tweaks that need making to get the finished product you require.
The two things that would concern me most are Kenats comments
"We currently fail to do this well for many internal projects and I'm concerned we'd be worse with outsourcing."
""I don't see the benefit for your company" - it was the exec VPs idea, need I say more?"
Firstly yes if you cannot put the procedures in place and supply the information to make things work internally, you can bet your bottom dollar things will be worse if you outsource. But that is an internal failing not a problem with outsourcing.
Secondly going back to my rugby playing days, I cannot remember winning many games I did not believe we would win, that does not however mean that we did not lose games I thought we would win, but if you believe something will fail you can be sure it will.
Design companies need happy customers, that is how we pay next months bills and wages, the happiest in my experience are the ones that work closest with you.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
The auto industry outsources all the time, and has ever since I started work. For example there are several consultancies who will take on an engine redesign project, or noise reduction, or whatever. Almost all those pretty showcars that the fanboys love are outsourced. Even some manufacturing jobs are outsourced - Steyr Puch builds all sorts of cars and trucks, for instance.
Yes, your own engineers become project managers/system integrators/spec writers. Your contract lawyers become an important part of the team. Your CAD guys become experts at translation and database management.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
I have designed a lot of electronics packages, like 19" rack mounted boxes. Are your electronics people together enough to finalize all their information, in sufficient time for the subcontractor to take on the job, follow rigourous design procedures, and send drawings out to desireable (i.e. busy) fabricators?
I have spent a lot of time working with electronics hackers who want nothing more than to get parts in house as quickly as possible. Then, they can attach their stuff, drill holes, file things down, and take stuff to the machine shop for modification. Eventually, they get it working. It is too bad if you are the schmuck who has to manufacture it, because you don't have mechanical assembly drawings, often don't have cable drawings, and you probably cannot reproduce the phone calls that went out to the machine shop to get things modified.
The advantage of a subcontractor is that you can discuss the a**hole who f***ed up the drawings loudly and explictly, anywhere in the office. The subcontractor won't be around to overhear any of it. It is quite possible, they were competent, and tried very hard to do the job properly, but were unable to collect the information they needed.
Good electro-mechanical, or opto-mechanical, or opto-electro-mechanical design requires a lot of communication. Sending part of it out of house is a good failure strategy.
I can see a good case for subcontracting where you have a system or module that requires specific expertise that you do not have and do not want to develop, in house. You can define a simple interface, like a 9U 19" rack box, and a few connectors, and some DC voltage and current. Then, you can let the experts do it.
JHG
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Nonetheless, outsourcing has the connotation of a pejorative, even though everyone does it, even when they aren't aware of doing it.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
I don't think I ever claimed there was a fundamental across the board problem with outsourcing that meant it was universally a bad thing, to do so would be ridiculous. I think I also pointed out in my OP the 2 areas/cases I've seen it work relatively well.
My concern is the reality of what my employer can/is likely to do and the way they seem to be looking at the outsourcing.
I don't' believe my employer has the project management type skills in house. In the current climate/environment I'm doubtful they'd hire someone(s).
From the way they acted on the outsourcing of drawing checking I have no reason to believe they'd make the outsourcing of design work.
I just had a great example, our Director just sent out a message reminding everyone that our statement of requirements type documents should not just be a summary power point presentation but should be a detailed written document – no $hit $herlock!
Well I think most of you have backed up my basic ideas and fleshed them out some.
I actually think my manager is a bit too negative on this one, however I will use your input to emphasize the effort taken to make it work. As MikeHalloran above said though, if I'm remotely optimistic in anything I say that's what they'll grab onto as that's what they want to hear, all my cautions etc will be thrown to the wind.
Irstuff,could you clarify what you meant by "Minimize the motherhood requirements", I assume you meant make sure everything's in the requirement/SOW so they don't have to keep asking questions/you don't keep having to guide them.
Thanks all.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
1st is the lack of xp. They not only lack any kind of engineering xp, but life xp as well. The first part comes with training and time (most of these guys are early 20's and fresh out of school) However, alot of these engineers know abosulutely nothing about cars let alone the product they are working on. As Automotive engineers it does make it easier if you have at least cracked the hood of a car to look underneath. Some of our engineers have never owned one. So this is a big hurdle. We bring a lot of engineers back here to train for 6 months to a year. That seems to help. I guess what I am getting at is a little general engineering knowledge or hands on know-how is nice.
Standards are another biggy. Although this seems to be a bigger issue with China then it does other countries we work with.
Job Hopping. Apparently we have issues with engineers we train either leaving for better pay, or getting promoted. Either way they become useless to our department because the knowledge goes with them. Everytime someone creates a drawing for me it is someone new I have never worked with.
I guess what it all comes down to is I have to check to make sure they have everything exactly the way I want it. All my parts are modeled correctly, drawing are up to par, and my stacks are done correctly (yes I don't even have time to do those!) Communication is key. Outsourcing can be good for a company (not so much my job) if done correctly. Don't know how many late night calls we have.
Ans these are divisions we own. Not some compnay we hired. I feel for someone who has to throw a dart and hope they get a reputable company to work with.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
If you were going overseas to tap into huge labor disparities it would be one thing, but to go 4 hours down the road to save a couple of bucks just does not make sense. Unless your management is using this as a test case. "Look at the great product we got over at XYZ". "Let's farm the next one out to kid yourself company in Sudan". "We'll realy save some money there". Does your management get their bonus based on what they invent as savings? These appear to be first steps taken to get rid of their own employees. This may be their cost savings. You have heard the old sayings... don't apprecaite what you already have..the grass is always greener on the other side of fence...familiarity breeds contempt. Obviously, your management does not understand the importance of value added and sadly like most companies today the importance of being able to make things.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Engineering Director is taking a trip to the VPs fave outsourcer next week. Any suggestions on questions he should ask them are welcome.
My direct boss is giving him a copy of the vendor survery operations/manufacturing use so that will cover a lot of the T & Cs and stability of the company etc.
I'm thinking extra things like:
Do you work to/are you familiar with relevant industry standards and evidence of this. I was initially concentrating on drawing standards like ASME Y14.5M-1994 & 14.100 but there may be others from the electronics & 'compliance' point of view.
What CAD system(s)/versions do you use and specifically do/can they work in our primary system.
Do you have staff trained/expert in tolerancing especially GD&T (again 14.5). Ideally someone with GDTP or GDTPS.
What procedures do you have for ensuring quality of drawing packs - drawing checking etc.
Do you have Design For Manufacture & Assembly expertise? Especially as it relates to the relatively low production rates we typically have.
Do they have experience creating work/assembly instructions for any 'complex' assemblies.
Are they willing to work with our templates/formats.
How would they propose integrating their design with our database, for instance we have CAD models for a lot of hardware and wouldn't want to duplicate them if possibl but probably don't have the time or staff to spend a lot of time managing this from our side.
We also have a 'smart' part/drawing numbering system, are they willing to work with this.
Are they willing to work with our ERP system, at least as finding already assigned part numbers etc.
Are they willing to work with our processes for requesting new part numbers.
Are they willing to work to our ECO system as required, especially the wonderfully long spreadsheet that goes with it now.
(Yes these latter also have aspects we need to answer)
It seems like the above has a rather narrow focus, any suggestions on areas not covered? Of course I'm assuming a lot of things is covered by the vendor survey I mentioned but I'm sure I'm missing some biggy's.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Outsourcing makes a lot of sense and in some cases is the only way, for example like many small companies I outsource accountancy, of course I could employ a full time accountant and provide him with 5 hours work a week and a few hours more at year end, however the 35 hours I would have to pay him to sit around doing nothing would ruin the company. Of course if he gets it wrong I could lose out big time or even end up in prison, which is why you need to carefully choose who you work with but it still remains the only option. Why is design any different?
Kenat, as well as clearly stating what you require the biggest issue I would try and cover is changes. I do not know what happens in your industry, but in automotive it is common to have at least 5-6 revision changes during design. How this gets charged is always a topic for debate. Basically companies have two strategies either go in heavy initially and then absorb some of the costs themselves, or go in light to win the work and really load the changes, very few go in with a "fair" price for both the initial quote and the changes. What seems a bargain may not be so, or what seems expensive may not be so either.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
But... All extra work, redesigns that were customer inspired etc, were charged at $280 ph, roughly a multiplier of 6 or 8.
So the project gets signed off by the customer on the basis of the $50 quote, but of course is quickly convinced that the Mk II version is what he really needs, so ends up spending $280.
Oh, one thing to watch is bait and switch with personnel on the project. When it is set up you'll meet with experienced project managers, VPs, and senior drafters, who will convince you of their expertise and imbue a sense of complacency. In the course of the project these will rapidly be replaced by a 28 yo project manager with a newly minted MBA, and a bunch of CAD droogs who have just done the tutorials.
What, me cynical?
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Some customers stipulate as part of the contract language that the people specified in the proposal must be the ones doing the work.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
The problem is no right minded company would believe that another company can remain in business charging $50/hour, so they must have known deep down that either they would get loaded on costs, the company did not know what they were talking about, or they were unlikely to be around next month, but still choose to use them!
Again speaking as a an owner of a design company you are almost forced to play this game to win new customers, although I hate doing business this way but if you go in with a "fair" price of say $150/hour you are three times more expensive than the cheapest quote.
One thing not mentioned so far is small companies tend to be far more streamlined and can work on much tighter margins. Most owners are first in last out and will put themselves out in a way no regular employee would, or indeed should be expected too. Add to this the fact they do not need to satisfy share holders (other than themselves) or run costly departments like HR and these savings can and are passed on.
As I said in my earlier post I believe that the key is to try and build an understanding between two (or more) companies where all parties clearly understand what is expected, in terms of cost, time and content and try and work with each other rather than fighting over every detail. There is a big difference between cost and value.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
The American aviation industry learned long ago to firmly control sources of high strength fasteners and other key commodities.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Just to reign it in a bit, I'm not talking about specifically outsourcing overseas, just outside our office as it were.
Also I believe at this stage we're only looking to outsource the actual design and then take care of manufacture our selves, though I don't have all the details and am not sure how prototype would be handled (also we only have assembly facilities not machine shop etc so most of our piece part manufacturing is already outsourced).
Ajack, what you mention about smaller streamlined companies is what I meant by "large organizations outsourcing non-core tasks to smaller nimbler firms" in my OP. My concern is that we aren't that big of a company/site and if we can save significant amounts on that basis then we have other issues!
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Fun.
V
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
However, we do have that issue on something we already outsourced.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
The only thing that I have experienced personally due partly to outsourcing is the shortage of cement, causing prices to rise. Because of the industrial boom in China, they have purchase a lot of our cement. Two years ago I was going to widen my driveway, only to find out the price had doubled from the previous 2 years!
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
My company recently hired a sub-consultant to review a complicated connection design. The company was in Ohio. The companies engineers were located in the Philippenes (we didn't know this when we hired the company). Their engineering was so so. The coordination was very difficult. The "engineering manager" in Ohio didn't know much about engineering, and the engineers in the Philippenes didn't speak good english.
They were quick. They worked 7 days a week, more than 10 hours a day. The cost was $70/hour
I personally wouldn't go that route again.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
I am assuming they didn't have to stamp anything. Is that true? If they did have to stamp something, would they have someone available to stamp?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
For small companies, you have the added difficulty in keeping someone who is an SME on a particular subject being able to keep interested and busy, while only getting to do his thing once every few months or once every few years.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
The Philippenes is the second largest speaking country in the world. Granted they have their own "style", but once you get used to it, I think its actually pretty good.
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
We didn't have them stamp anything. One of our east coast offices often uses them to design connections. I'm assuming they submit stamped calcs in that case. I'm betting they "review" the calcs in Ohio and stamp them. That's just a guess though.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Did you mean second largest English speaking country? I believe pretty much all countries speak.
V
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
BigInch, by supervision on sight did you mean for actual construction type projects?
I've worked in a company that was the 'outsourcee' for design type tasks and we didn't have onsite supervision. Our customers made visits as required and we had emails, phone calls etc. but no permanent presence.
For my current situation having a permanent presence at the vendor would nullify much of the perceived advantage.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
V
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Just did a quick google and doesn't seem like spanish is the correct answer.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
While I can't speak directly of B&W, I can speak of S&W. S&W is owned by Shaw, which also has a 20% stake in Westinghouse. Lots of mingling going on there, and as someone else mentioned, plenty of overseas work in both new construction and maintenance contracts. You should start to see a fair amount of this spilling over domestically now, but I think the upcoming election will play a role in just how quickly things come together.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Make sure the designers know about your manufacturing capabilities and limitations. If you are not careful, the cost will rise. From what I have been involved with, the design will come in-house, you'll spend a week getting drawings up to your standards, and will do the purchasing of components as normal, then receive everything and attempt assembly. During this attempt, it would be good to have the designers there to turn a wrench or two.
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
I think to some extent it depends how 'full service' they are/we expect them to be.
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
The pastor of our church adopted a Korean boy, who is now attending college in China. We attended a slide show covering the pastor's trip to China last year. He mentioned a district some distance from Beijing that is building up rapidly to meet demands for outsourced products to the US. Unconsciously, he reflected the Chinese view that what they are doing is helping destroy American business, and they are enjoying this prospect.
We as a family have decided to vacation in our home state and buy American whenever possible. We buy Whirlpool, a Michigan enterprise. Our cars are US brands. We try to keep the money here in the US and in Michigan. May I recommend that you do likewise in your own state.
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Look deep under the hood of some GM cars. Some of it comes from Toyota or other manufacturers.
There are many U.S. products that are still 100% American made, but fading away each year.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
thread769-227602: Hazard of Sourcing to China
KENAT,
Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
The Chinese had better not enjoy destroying American industry too much. The Americans owe them too much money.
JHG
RE: Outsourcing stage 3 - Design Tasks
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies